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Author Topic: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:  (Read 23504 times)

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ltank

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2012, 09:24:40 PM »

Well after info overload and all the help, You have been a great help! I came up with a plan. Buy  a Baker DD6 and use the stock 25 tooth motor sprocket  and chain.. I went to the Baker site and played with the numbers. It did not explain in detail like you did here. By keeping my stock FXR4 25/36 and 32/65 I will retain a  2.92 sixth gear and the one through five should give what I need at all the other speeds? Am I wrong in my thinking? I hope that the DD6 can hold up to the 116HP/122TQ. I know the Barnett Scorpian Clutch will hold up.
Thanks,
Ltank
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FXR2evo99

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2012, 01:05:34 AM »

"....Well after info overload and all the help, You have been a great help! I came up with a plan. Buy  a Baker DD6 and use the stock 25 tooth motor sprocket  and chain.. I went to the Baker site and played with the numbers. It did not explain in detail like you did here. By keeping my stock FXR4 25/36 and 32/65 I will retain a  2.92 sixth gear and the one through five should give what I need at all the other speeds? Am I wrong in my thinking? I hope that the DD6 can hold up to the 116HP/122TQ. I know the Barnett Scorpian Clutch will hold up...."


Ltank~

I know nothing about the DD6 actually, in terms of how much it will cost?  Or How much it will cost to install?
I grant you for most guys the cost would be around $900.00 or so to do what I am doing if they must take it to a shop.  But then again most guys wouldn't bother doing this modification to begin with.  I am doing it because I feel the merits add to the overall specifics of the type of riding I enjoy doing, which is a snappier ride, as well as putting the power band of the way the engine has been built more in line with dynamics of the engine.  Of course the reasons are all listed above.

I am choosing to do my own work as I always do on my bikes and it's costing as you see at the top of the THREAD nearly $550.00, of course it could be done for less if you purchased both the rear wheel sprocket used as well as finding a Andrews Transmission Pulley/Sprocket used as well but that is negligible really.

I have not done the research with the Bakers DD6, however I have had some conversations about it in the past on another website with another owner of a 1993 FXLR that was concerned about the way he built his bike and was going down the highway at 3800 RPMS at 85 MPH, he did describe his riding style as riding with "club members" who traveled together at constant speeds of 85 MPH and he felt the RPMS were turning too much for highway miles at such speeds, so he infact put in a DD6 bakers unit.  

Here is the interesting part of that discussion, it seems like anytime I go out with people to ride over a 100 mile ride there are 2-3 miles where you are checking the wide open throttle just to see what the bike will do....realizing this means that for 3% of my riding is spent drastically above a normal jaunt down the highway....just for example that would be if you went 7,500 miles a year would be 3 hours out of 100 hours of riding are you really working the engine and in this example you are trying to go as fast as possible.....now let's look at it from another way....

Let's say you put a DD6 in, for the same reasoning as this other rider was doing, to bring the RPMS down at 85 MPH.  Looking at the chart above shows that at 3.360:1 FINAL GEARING you would in 5th be doing 3721 RPMS at 85 MPH.  (Since our minds like to round numbers this would be seen as 3800 RPMS, Where as at 75 MPH with 3.360:1 FINAL GEARING, you are doing 3315 RPMS (once again, would it be fair to round this up or down, perhaps down, to 3300 RPMS).  Say the DD6 was set up with a FINAL GEARING RATIO of 3.360:1 for 5th GEAR, and then rolled it down to say 2.925:1 FINAL GEARING for the "6th Speed" which is where I believe the other rider I have been referring to said would be the results, then looking at the chart above reveals that at 85 MPH there would be a lowering of RPMS down from aprx 3800 RPMS at 85 MPH down to 3271 RPMS or rounded to 3300 RPMS, a lowering of 500 RPMS for highway use.  But that is at 85 MPH where this rider said his "club" would spend their time riding down the highway.  What's interesting to me about this discussion as it was then and as it is now, in order for the DD6 to work effectively you would have to be going 85 MPH all of the time or else you present the problems that I am trying to step away from initially anyway, for example:

75 MPH 2.925:1 = 2886 RPMS
70 MPH 2.925:1 = 2700 RPMS
65 MPH 2.925:1 = 2500 RPMS

In those RPMS listed above DO you really need a 6th Gear, as offered by a DD6?

With the 3.360:1:
75 MPH = 3315 RPMS
70 MPH = 3094 RPMS
65 MPH = 2873 RPMS

If you look at these numbers carefully you will discover that the OEM gearing 2.925:1 FINAL GEARING in 5th gear in my opinion is too high of gearing which takes you off of the power band of the cam, yet, once we ride over 75 MPH then the merits of a DD6 come in to play.  I have already disclosed how often I ride full open throttle which is about 3% of the time if that much, but let's just say it is, for 2-3 miles every aprx 100 miles.  At that point you don't care about a DD6 transmission you are just going full open throttle and seeing how the bike performs....or "racing" against the other person for whatever reason.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 11:45:49 AM by FXR2evo99 »
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FXR2evo99

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2012, 11:41:56 AM »

So let's turn our attention to steady riding from 80 MPH, this could happen I suppose on a interstate highway posted at 75 MPH for the entire time you were on the highway especially if you could loc in your throttle with a cruise control at 79 MPH.  But out here where we are at 85 MPH will get you that ticket for sure.....so I am sure that every state is different for that.  

For passing circumstances all any of us wants is the appropriate amount of torque/power at the wick of our throttle....

I am not going down the highway for extended periods of time above 85 MPH, unless I am in wide open spaces....in WYO.  

My point is any money spent for a DD6 is counterintuitive to the merits of riding one's bike efficiently and within the power band for the cost associated with it, as can be seen by this demonstration especially when counting the cost.

I am trying to make my bike more snappy and responsive not take away from that.

I guess the ultimate question is what do those riders riding their 89-93 FXR's really think about their riding experiences with the 3.37 FINAL GEARING RATIOS.  

I can tell you this, for SURE, 3.37 FINAL gearing works perfectly also in my 2002 RKC going down any highway......and for $550.00 inclusive of the one time purchase of a speciality tool for removing that Transmission PulleySprocket 1 7/8" Nut we will find out the long term results if it is not completely what I feel it will do, for about $45.00 I will return it to the stock OEM gearing + 8 hours of my time for me to tear into it again and go back.

Certainly I am not presenting any of this as a challenge but merely opening the door to people's thoughts.....

Regards,

Tim
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ltank

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2012, 08:42:09 AM »

Well I am going to save me alot of money and go with your gearing suggestions. Baker said I had too much motor for the DD6 they suggested the OD6. I did not want a overdrive with my stock gearing. I will keep the 25/36 primary and change from the 32/65 to the 30/70. You listed a Andrews 30 tooth pulley but do you know the part number for a Harley OEM steel  pulley for 94-06 years 30 tooth pulley? I also am currious about going to the 1.125" narrower rear belt (136) and 70 tooth 1.125". By chance do you know the part numbers? I dont know if all the different pulleys have the same measurements from the mounting point on rim to the inner edge of the pulley. This would effect the tracking of the belt and alignment. How much power can a 1.125" belt handle? This would also allow a slightly wider tire in the future,,
Thanks Again,
Ltank
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ltank

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2012, 02:01:12 PM »

My Mechanic suggested changing the motor sprocket from 25 to 23 I checked with Zippers Performance. they have it for a Softail. The spockets are the same. Waiting for their reply.
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ltank

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2012, 08:01:34 AM »

Hi FXR2evo99,
 I have been closely studying your work now. I am ready to buy my parts. You posted.

"25T Comp x 36T Clutch Shell Basket X 30T Transmission Pulley/Sprocket x 70T Rear Wheel Sprocket 136T Belt = 3.36 Final Gear"

"  * = I know you can purchase a 133T Belt and a 136T Belt from HD, even though the math points to the idea or concept of using a 138T Belt all 1993 and 1994 FXR's use the same belt which is the part number listed above i.e.: HD# 40001-85 which is a 136T Belt so obviously one just needs to set the tension right.  The 1989-1993 FXR's have 3.37 Final Gearing and the 1994 FXR's have 3.15 Final Gearing"

From the above I conclude that the older FXR had 30/70 combinations if they used the 136 tooth belts.
I am considering. If I gotta buy new 136 tooth belt and a 30 tranny and a 70 rear wheel that I would go from the stock 1 1/2" width to the narrower 1 1/8" belt and pulleyso a wider rear tire can be done. I reveiwed your other post an this. I figure I to do both at the same time. I talked to my shop guy about this to do ally upgrades at one time.
I will get the Andrews  290306 steel 30 tooth pulley and a Harley 70 tooth 1 1/8" pulley from a Softail and  a Harley 40570-04B Rear belt 1 1/8" 136 tooth.
I appreciate you time and effort that gave me through this.
Thanks,
Ltank
S&S makes high strength belts but not a 1 1/8" 136 tooth. I just hope that the HD belt holds up.

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FXR2evo99

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2012, 07:22:45 PM »

you can change to any sprocket....the reason to stay with numbers like 25 x 26 or 24 x 37 is that you can use the same primary chain which helps to keep costs down.  

If you go with a 23 comps sprocket what will you use for the clutch shell sprocket....?

ltank,

you need to talk with a dealer about which 70T rear wheel sprocket that will fit on your bike, you see I believe you have a 1" rear axle.  So you have to be very careful to make sure that you get the right sized rear sprocket.  No I do not know the part number for a 70T Rear Wheel Sprocket narrow 1 1/8, I am thinking though you could find one that would go with a Dyna model bike, it's just a matter of talking with a Parts guy.  On top of that of course you are searching for a narrow rear wheel 70T sprocket which fits a 1" axle.  

No actually I don't know the HD# for a 30T HD OEM Tranrsmission Sprocket.  I called a local dealership to ask whether HD had made a EVO designed (calling it an "EVO designed" because it would be the vintage of bikes using such a sprocket since it would have needed to be used some where during that era.  I know that HD hasn't made one since 2002 or I would have read about it.  But when I asked the parts guy he was unaware of whether they ever did.  I am not saying he is totally right, but I would think I would have heard about the part at some point.  So I will risk saying I am not sure there ever was one made by HD.

lank, you must remember if you change your secondary ratios at all you will throw your "electronic" speedo reading off.  The reason an FXR2 or FXR3 can be modified in this way without a speedo recalebration is because both the FXR2 and FXR3 use a speedo drive unit off of the front wheel. 
 
Apparently it's an easy fix to correct the speedo with a re-calibration box. SnS and Dakota Digital both make one.

Depends on where the speedo sensor is getting it's data from. On a HD, the speedo sensor counts gear tooth pulses from 4th gear on the mainshaft. Changing final drive ratios (as in the front trans sprocket from 32 to 30 or rear wheel sprocket from 65 to 70) will alter the pulse count as will changing the tooth shape of 4th gear. Trannies like JIMS 5/6spd and others with full contact gears require the re-calibrator even though the tooth count on 4th gear is the same. Changing engine primary ratios has no effect on the 4th gear mainshaft pulse count relationship and no re-cal is required.

Doing this project becomes a bit more complicated on a FXR4, but nothing that can't be fixed.

Regards,

Tim
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 03:04:24 AM by FXR2evo99 »
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ltank

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2012, 10:15:23 PM »

Zippers said their kit will not work on the FXR. S&S said that a measurement of the tranny shaft center to center of rear axle and pulley tooth counts would be needed for his program to get the correct belt. You way makes perfect sense to me. I guess I will remove the outer primary and measure. do you know off hand? I measured my rear axle it is 3/4". I checked with different belt mfg. They said I sould stick with the 1 1/2" belt due to motor size. I just seems it does not want to work out for me no matter how hard I try. As Rosan Rosan Dana (Old Saturday Night Live) said " It's always something"
Thanks,
Ltank
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FXR2evo99

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2012, 03:19:00 AM »

Zippers said their kit will not work on the FXR. S&S said that a measurement of the tranny shaft center to center of rear axle and pulley tooth counts would be needed for his program to get the correct belt. You way makes perfect sense to me. I guess I will remove the outer primary and measure. do you know off hand? I measured my rear axle it is 3/4". I checked with different belt mfg. They said I sould stick with the 1 1/2" belt due to motor size. I just seems it does not want to work out for me no matter how hard I try. As Rosan Rosan Dana (Old Saturday Night Live) said " It's always something"


Ltank

Here is the part number for my rear axle which would be the same for either the FXR2 or FXR3:  41110--79A.  Which is a 3/4" axle so if yours is the same part number then you are right.  If you have a different part number it might give credence to being a bigger axle, so check it.  I know you are running what are considered "twin cam" brakes on your FXR4 both front and rear, and us FXR2 and FXR3 owners are using "EVO" styled brakes both front and rear which have to do with our axle sizes....

that's right you are running the S&S 111 engine so you probably do need to stick with a wider belt, heck you are probably a close candidate for running chain as a secondary set up. With the kind of horse and torque you are getting.

LOL about Rosan Rosan Dana, lol, indeed we are DATING OURSELVES.....lol.

Regards,

Tim
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FXR2evo99

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2012, 03:33:41 AM »

"....I called S&S about getting the correct belt tooth count when changing pulleys. He told me that he needed the measurement from the center of tranny shaft to the center of rear axle along with the tooth count of each pulley I told him I was going from 32 to 30 on tranny and from 65 to 70 on the rear wheel pulley for a difference of 3 tooth to be added to the stock 133 for a 136 count. He said it is not as simpe as a tooth count of the difference between the pulleys!!!
Does any one have the center of tranny shaft to center of rear wheel axle? I contacted Andrew but they have not  responded yet...."


Ltank,

I am telling you, if you go from 32T on the transmission pulley down to 30T and you change the rear sprocket and go from 65T to 70T, in this case it is simple math and you have added 3 teeth more than you started with originally and were using a 133T belt.  So 133 + 3 = 136 Tooth Belt needed....

Now if you go back and look at all of the FXR's being made from 1984 - 1994, you will find that HD ran a Secondary Belt of 136T (HD# 40001-85) as they were all running a 32T Comp Sprocket and a 70T Rear Wheel Sprocket.  Which tells you that our bikes have some room for fitment vs setting the belt tension. 

So I agree that it is not just about tooth count it's about a range of value due to the circumferences of the sprocket/pulley combinations that are chosen.

Regards,

Tim

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FXR2evo99

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2012, 09:43:05 AM »



I THOUGHT I WOULD THROW SOME PHOTOS INTO THIS PROJECT....PLUS THE WEBSITE IS A GOOD SERVER FOR KEEPING WHAT I ACTUALLY DID ON FILE....LOL.....WHICH IS AWESOME....SORT OF A PICTORIAL OF WHAT IS HAPPENING....

BEFORE STARTING THIS I WOULD PUT BIKE IN 5TH GEAR.
LEFT FOOTPEG REMOVED, OUTER PRIMARY REMOVED AND CLEANED, AND BOLTS CLEANED...YES I DID SAY BOLT'S CLEANED.....LOL YEP....THAT'S WHAT I SAID.....LOL




[NOTE: Please remember that putting your curser next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your curser on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 11:49:45 AM by FXR2evo99 »
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FXR2evo99

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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2012, 09:43:26 AM »

PHOTO B:  COMPENSATING SPROCKET & CLUTCH SHELL BASKET REMOVED....zip zip zip with the impact wrench....so SIMPLE....no fighting with long "cheater bar".






[NOTE: Please remember that putting your curser next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your curser on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 11:39:41 AM by FXR2evo99 »
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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2012, 09:44:09 AM »

PHOTO C:  YOU CAN SEE THE ACCUMULATED RUST ON THE OEM 32T TRANSMISSION SPROCKET/PULLEY AND THE OLD 133T BELT.  ALSO NOTICE THE SHIFTER SHAFT SEAL HAS BEEN LEAKING AS YOU CAN SEE THE RESULTS OF GREASE AROUND THE TRANSMISSION SPROCKET/PULLEY AND SEAL.  AS ON THE BACK SIDE OF THE INNER PRIMARY....TOOK ME 45 MINUTES TO CLEAN ALL OF THAT UP...PROBABLY MORE, BUT I DON'T WANT TO ADMIT TO THAT.....I GET NUTS ABOUT CLEANING STUFF WHEN I DO A PROJECT.....ALSO IN THIS PHOTO YOU SEE MY SHIFTER SHAFT HANGING THERE, THE THREADS WERE SO TORN UP THAT I ENDED UP HAVING TO STOP MY PROGRESS AND ORDERED 2 MORE OF THESE (HD# 34621--84 "SHIFTER LEVER") AS THEY ARE BECOMING AN OBSOLETE PART NUMBER AND THEY ARE ONLY $50.00 RETAIL. SO I ORDERED FROM REBECCA (TRI-COUNTY HARLEY AND SAVED 20%).  MY SHAFT WAS SO MESSED UP I COULDN'T PUSH THE SHIFTER LEVER THAT I JUST ORDERED COMPLETELY ON TO THE SHIFTER LEVER (HOPEFULLY THAT MAKES SENSE) I GOT THEM FOR $42.00 EACH....ONE THING THAT COMES OUT OF THIS I WON'T BE TAKING OFF THAT INSPECTION COVER REQUIRING ME TO REMOVE THE SHIFTER PEG LEVER VERY OFTEN SO I DON'T MESS AROUND WITH THOSE THREADS.  TWO SUMMERS AGO BOTH PAUL, MIKEY, AND I HAD SHIFTER LEVER PROBLEMS, IN FACT MIKEYS ALMOST FELL OFF AND I KNOW HE HAS DONE NOTHING TO REPAIR IT, AND THE ONLY THING TO REPAIR IT IS REPLACE IT.....SO JUST REMEMBER PUT THAT ITEM ON GENTLY AND BE CAREFUL NOT TORQUING THOSE BOLTS TOO MUCH....ANYWAY NEW SHIFTER LEVER AND NEW SHIFTER PEG LEVER....OH WELL....HAS DELAYED MY PROGRESS BUT THAT'S OK.....SOMETIMES THAT'S THE WAY THESE PROJECTS WORK!!!





[NOTE: Please remember that putting your curser next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your curser on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 10:33:09 AM by FXR2evo99 »
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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2012, 09:45:40 AM »

PHOTO D:  THIS PHOTO SHOWS THE TRANSMISSION SPROCKET/PULLEY OFF THE BIKE AND HOW GREASY EVERYTHING WAS FROM THE RESULT OF THAT SHIFTER SHAFT SEAL LEAKING OVER TIME....IF YOU DON'T REALIZE IT, THE BLACK IN THE INDENTED PORTIONS OF THE CASTING OF THE TRANSMISSION ARE ACTUALLY POWDERCOATED BLACK, IT'S ONLY THE SURFACE THAT IS SUPPOSE TO BE FREE OF GREASE.....YOU CAN SEE THE EDGE OF THE STATOR COVERING IS PRETTY DIRTY AS WELL....YOU WILL SEE IN A LATER PHOTO HOW I CLEANED THAT UP.....AS I SAID I GET INTO CLEANING WHEN I DO A PROJECT, IT CAN BE VERY FRUSTRATING WITH SOMEONE HELPING ME WORK ON A PROJECT WHEN I WANT TO CLEAN BEFORE MOVING FORWARD, BUT OH WELL.....LOL.
I KNOW NO INDEPENDENT SHOP WILL NEVER DO THIS....THE BACK SIDE OF THE PRIMARY WAS A MESS TOO!!!

YOU CAN ALSO SEE THE SHIFTER SHAFT HANGING THERE....I DISCOVERED LATER AFTER THIS PHOTO THAT THE SPLINES OF THE SHIFTER SHAFT WERE ACTUALLY SMASHED, WHICH WAS HARD TO TELL WITH THE SHIFTER SHAFT BARLEY PROTRUDING THROUGH THE OUTER PRIMARY, I WAS HAVING A HARD TIME WITH MY OLD SHIFTER ANYWAY....HERE JUST RECENTLY I PURCHASED A LONGER SHIFTER PEG AS I AM INSTALLING THE FXRP FLOORBOARDS ON TO MY FXR2 BIKE AND WANTED A LONGER SHIFTER PEG, OEM SIZE IS 6 1/4" LONG AND I PURCHASED AN EXTENDED ONE WHICH IS 8.5" LONG WHICH PUTS THE SHIFTER IN THE RIGHT SPOT WITH THE FLOORBOARD SET UP, WELL AS I WAS JUST PLAYING WITH THAT NEW SHIFTER I NOTICED IT WASN'T SEATING ALL THE WAY ON.....I HADN'T BOTHERED TO TRY TO FORCE IT OR ANYTHING AS I KNEW I WAS PLANNING TO PULL OFF THE OUTER PRIMARY ANYWAY FOR THIS PROJECT AND IT WASN'T UNTIL RIGHT AFTER THESE PHOTOS THAT I REALIZED HOW SMASHED MY SPLINES ON THE SHIFTER SHAFT REALLY WERE....SO SINCE THIS SHIFTER SHAFT PART IS "PENDING" OBSOLETE I DECIDED TO PURCHASE A COUPLE AND KEEP ANOTHER ONE FOR A SPARE, HOPEFULLY I WILL TREAT THE NEW ONE WHEN I GET IT THIS WEEK WITH MORE CARE!!!!!  



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« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 11:50:51 AM by FXR2evo99 »
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Re: 1999 FXR2 & FXR3, 2000 FXR4 FINAL GEARING 2.925 MY MODIFICATION:
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2012, 09:46:04 AM »


PHOTO E:  OLD BELT 133T STILL ON, TIRE REMOVED AND PREPARING TO PUT ON NEW 70T REAR WHEEL SPROCKET


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« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 10:37:10 AM by FXR2evo99 »
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