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[porkypig]

Well, I seem to have discovered the source of lack of power, metallic sound coming from the engine, possibly the reason behind the backfiring upon letoff of the throttle, slow response to the throttle, etc.  Friday I took the bike in to get it looked at (11,000 miles) and they rode it and said they would tear into the top of the engine as they had heard noise from there.  They called me saturday afternoon and told me they had a parts list and were calling harley on Monday but they discovered a couple push rods that were bent.  So, today they called and told me it was official and it may be by Friday they get the new pushrods and can get it reassembled.  Couple people said they should also replace tappets and valves.  Anybody got some other remedies they should look at before buttoning it up.?  I was told that because they are bent (shorter stroke) that the valves are not opening all the way or closing all the way.  So it isn't getting enough fuel and the fuel it does get doesn't get completely exhausted before the valve closes again.  Said I should see a noticeable increase in performance.  Hope so.  Pork.

[Jasray]

Pork, did they give you any indication as to what caused them to bend?  Seams like 11,000 miles is pretty early for that type of mechanical stress to develop.

[sadunbar]

Well, I seem to have discovered the source of lack of power, metallic sound coming from the engine, possibly the reason behind the backfiring upon letoff of the throttle, slow response to the throttle, etc.  Friday I took the bike in to get it looked at (11,000 miles) and they rode it and said they would tear into the top of the engine as they had heard noise from there.  They called me saturday afternoon and told me they had a parts list and were calling harley on Monday but they discovered a couple push rods that were bent.  So, today they called and told me it was official and it may be by Friday they get the new pushrods and can get it reassembled.  Couple people said they should also replace tappets and valves.  Anybody got some other remedies they should look at before buttoning it up.?  I was told that because they are bent (shorter stroke) that the valves are not opening all the way or closing all the way.  So it isn't getting enough fuel and the fuel it does get doesn't get completely exhausted before the valve closes again.  Said I should see a noticeable increase in performance.  Hope so.  Pork.

There's got to be more to the story.  Pushrods don't just bend for no reason.  The most common reason to bend pushrods is having valves hit pistons.  Valves don't hit pistons (on a stock motor) without extreme over-reving of the motor, floating the valves.  It's also possible a valve stuck in a valve guide, causing it to not close, thus hitting a piston.  This generally will bend the valve, but not necessarily bend a pushrod.  I would ask them to do a leak down test and compression test to see if the valves are still seated, or if the valves corrosponding to the bent pushrods are also bent.  Bent valves could also cause your symptoms of backfire and slow throttle response (due to greatly reduced compression).  If the valves are also bent, then you will want the pistons inspected.  If the valve hits the piston flat, the piston is likely fine.  But if a valve hits a piston, then bends, then hits a piston again, you could have a damaged piston also.  If you find you have a bent pushrod and valve, then it's time to also inspect the corrosponding lifters...

[grc]

What he said.  Bent pushrods are the result of a failure, not the cause.  Don't let them just throw a couple new pushrods in and button everything up, make them find the root cause and fix that as well.

Jerry

[porkypig]

Boy!  all good recommendations!  I will see what they say and see how it corresponds with what you guys are saying.  what you say makes sense.  I can say without a doubt that I never revved this engine over the recommended rpms during its breakin.  and I am not famous in any circles for doing stuff with my bike (or cars either) that will cost me money.  Consequently, I may be accused of babying the engine too much.  I initially took this bike in at 3500 miles and they test drove it and said it was so bad they couldn[t even let me take it home.  Think I may have posted last summer.  I talked to customer support in Milwaukee and he told me I could drive it as much as I wanted and they would fix it if it broke.  so it was just time to get it taken care of this time. From the time it was born, there has been the sound of metal on metal and the accompanying backfire (which the expert could not detect when he drove it last summer; just said they had to keep the bike.  He wanted to split the case and operate that very day!)  this time I asken them to redrive the bike and make a new assessment rather than just jump to what was in the previous report.  I too believe it should perform much better after these thing(s) are replaced and repaired (asssessed).  Will keep you all posted.  Pork.  Truly it has sounded like somebody else said, like gravel going thru the engine.  But I know I'm putting gas in it.

[porkypig]

no, they offered no idea as to how it happened.  Made it sound as tho that was the cause rather than the effect.  they did talk about doing a leakdown test and that sort of thing.  I had a couple people tell me that it could be the timing chain is off by 1 tooth making the valves hit the piston or something like that.  I can't imagine things just bending when they hit a piston but if that is the case, they better find all the results and the cause as well. In less than a year, it will be on me.    Pork.

[ejvette]

Wow you must have been really beating the chit outta that sled.....ridin it hard and putting it away wet

[porkypig]

Not sure how to display this blog: decelleration popping and noise from engine.
« on: July 16, 2012, 02:18:53 PM »

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Well, I looked back about 8 pages and didn't see anything for this but I may have to be corrected.  My 2012 has been experiencing a considerable amount of noise when getting into the 2800 rpm range and higher since new.  Told the dealership it sounds like a popcorn popper.  Issues with taking off in 1st gear as well as considerably more decelleration popping than should be present.  Plus mileage about 40 mpg or so.....rarely any more.  So, finally they sent a mechanic (their top one; he's the guy we go to when we can't figure it out) and he brought the bike back into the shop and I didn't hear anything for about 1/2 hour.  Finally I asked about the bike and was told "the mechanic says he didn't find anything with the clutch and he couldn't hear anything out of the ordinary about the popping on decelleration.  (Maybe I got the 'wrench' that is good at what he knows and sees but can't hear anything any more....?) ok, so finally I asked what about the bike.  The service tech told me that yes, there is something seriously wrong with your bike and you can't even take the bike.  we have to keep it here and it will be about 2 weeks before we can fix it.  Have to split the case apart and it is suspected bad balance bearings in the bottom of the  engine!  Great!  I can't even take the bike?  I needed it that weekend for a couple trips.  I said it is on warranty isn't it?? He said yes, but if they tell me not to drive it and I ignore that advice and drive it, it may not be covered.  So, then a few minutes later I get another  tech that starts to ring me up and is telling me they didn't find anything wrong with the bike and that I'm good to go. I said somebody else just told me exactly the opposite.  That it was so bad I couldn't even drive the bike?  I asked him are we talking about the same bike??  He said yes, and then I asked him how there could be completely different stories and be the same bike?  He told me "well, I guess I better just stay out of it!"  (yeah, sounds good to me!)  Then a little while later the first guy comes out and says, here's the deal.....some serious issues with the bike but they can let me take it and I can just bring it in sometime and they will need it for about 2 weeks for repairs.  Now I am a little confused.........they made out a form and gave me a claim number, etc.  So it is documented.  Jump ahead to this last week...... Rode the bike to work without the fairing one day and had absolutely no noise or harsh sounds coming from the engine area.  Accellerates smooth as glass thru the 2800 rpm range and above.  One of the caps on top of the forks (right side) has a wear area where the chrome is worn clear to the brass below......So here is my observation:  The problem appears to be a serious vibration of the fairing/windshield.  It is plastic on metal and is acting like a megaphonefor the bike.  .  Amplifies everything imensely but moreover I believe something inside the fairing is vibrating as well.  So, last night my fix was to try to adjust a small (1/32nd or so) gap between the chrome fork cap and the spot under the fairing (gray plastic area just under the speaker.  it is a cutout area.)  Was able to get it where I can put a piece of paper (no more) in that gap.  Only wearing on the right side so imagine it is only touching on the one side.  I don't think it is anything with the engine at all.  Will test out my theory soon and see if the vibration goes away.  Expect it may.  And then I don't have to go thru the agony of splitting the cases, losing parts, scratching the frame up and all the other things probable while having our bikes in for "repair".  Is anybody else experiencing a little wear on top of their chrome cap or the vibration I have been describing??  Maybe it's just mine.  Pork

[porkypig]

Here we are 2 weeks later and I am supposed to get to pick up my bike today.  just finishing it up he just said.  I was told that the wrench will do a leak down test and compression test for me.  He tore down the heads and the valves look good.  I was told they are replacing a couple push rods, valve guide seals, and tappets.  that's all I know.  Should it run better?    Pork.

[RCFlyer]

Here we are 2 weeks later and I am supposed to get to pick up my bike today.  just finishing it up he just said.  I was told that the wrench will do a leak down test and compression test for me.  He tore down the heads and the valves look good.  I was told they are replacing a couple push rods, valve guide seals, and tappets.  that's all I know.  Should it run better?    Pork.

Hey Pork,
Hell yea!.. I should run a lot better.  Bent pushrods throw off the valve timing and also don't allow the valves to open fully.  It should run quite a bit better.  Good luck with it.  It bothers me that they bent in the first place.  They are very strong and it would take a heck of a lot of force to bend them.  I wonder if the tappets were your issue.  Good luck with it and ride safe.
John

[porkypig]

Yes, John, it does run better and stronger.  I still detect a tiny metal tapping noise but not like it was before at all.  I will see how things work for a while.  it is on warranty until next Feb so will see how it performs thru the summer and maybe if I still want, I'll take it in when the weather goes bad.  it idles better, it has better response, and it also shifts better, believe it or not.  first gear was always a pain I guess because it wasn't getting the proper mixture so it acted like it either didn't want to go into gear or acted like it wasn't getting enough fuel.  Still a little room for improvement in that department but I am definitely more satisfied with this bike now.  Just don't know what really happened to cause this.  the mechanic said he did compression test and it was fine.  what I don't know was what the compression test prior was.  I just know the results.  so, I am content for now.   wonder how many other engines have this same issue?  and don't know it..........Pork.

[RCFlyer]

Glad to hear Pork.  I haven't heard of anyone else with this issue.  I hope you have a good summer.  Is the noise you hear the same when it's cold versus hot? Mine is a little louder when it's hot.  Things loosen up a bit. Of course my engine is not stock, so I expect a little noise.  I have a radical cam and it's a gear drive besides.

[porkypig]

Well, they decided to put in a brand new engine so that problem will go away.  Hope it isn't the beginning of a new problem.   Pork.

[Jasray]

Pork, when you mentioned the bent rods in previous posts there were several good responses all indicating the same thing; that there was something else wrong.  Rods just don't bend for no reason.  Very happy to hear you are getting a new engine so there will be no leftover gremlins from the original problem.  Now you get the joy of revisiting all the posts regarding different opinions of proper engine break-in!

[porkypig]

Yes, I guess you are right.  I'm not sure how others break their engines in but I have had the pleasure of breaking in about 7 bikes now.  I take them up to maximum rpm allowed but do not run the crap out of them.  I hate broken stuff whether it is my fault or that of the bike.  Seems the MoCo can tell if it was abuse or if it is something else. 

[Thermodyne]

It's real hard to bend a push rod on a late twinky.  You could probably do it dead revving the motor, and you can do it downshifting.  You might be able to do it if you missed a shift right at the red line.  But a fairly new scooter should have false neutrals and such.

Even so, low mileage scooters show up from time to time with bent push rods.  Almost makes a person wonder if they are getting bent during the original engine build.

Now some peeps have said that bent push rods alter valve timing and make the scooter run poorly and such.  I like to hear a little more as to how that works.  Seriously I would.

A bent rod is just shorter than it should be, that's all.  They usually rub the tube and make strange noises.  But as long as the bend is minor, the tappet extends and makes up the difference.  If the rod was bent bad enough, you could run out of adjustment, but then you'll have a god awful valve clack.  If the rod was bent enough to effect valve timing to the point of running poorly, I'm thinking that you prolly would be more concerned about that thrashing noise it was making.

[porkypig]

Well, Therm, I am no expert.  when I pressed the wrench last week, he told me that he had observed and talked with the guy who was doing the actual work on the bent push rods.  He informed me that they "were really very slightly bent" but that the MoCo wasn't going to pay them for the work unless they "found" something.  that was what I was told.  I am from the same camp as you in that I cannot imagine much difference in performance if it was just slightly bent but if it was bent in a J, that would indicate much deeper problems.  How that could happen is beyond me.  Just know what I was told and how I treat my engine.  You could be correct in that there are other problems they have uncovered and we as customers/owners are probably never going to get the real skinny on what is the matter.  as long as they slap a new engine in there, I am good.     Pork.

[89Speedy]

[/quote] Hey Pork, In early of November of 2012, My bike ran terribly on the the way home, missing and popping.  In the morning it wouldn't start so I had it towed.  Moco took a long time to figure it out.  Bent push rods was one of the diagnosis .. .but two months later in the shop they still haven't figured it out . . . till finally they gave me a new motor.  But by then I had already traded it in for a new Breakout. Sure it still has the 110 motor but at least this time I got an extra 2 more years on the warranty.  I figure it just might be my last bike so after the warranty is up I just may throw a 120R in there . . . or a 103 with an upgrade kit.  Not to keen on the 110 these days.  So far, my fxsbse after 8500 miles is still pulling strong!  Good luck!!