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Author Topic: Tuner for 2012 110 motor  (Read 18768 times)

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JJAA

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2013, 12:02:39 PM »

I believe (my opinion) have now matched or exceeded the map files for my bike that were done by a pro. This is my opinion and mine alone when comparing top end performance, smoothness across the entire map and low end performance (2300-3000).
For the guy that's making an exhaust swap, I stand by my opinion that the PV autotuning capability will match or exceed any manually adjusted dyno tuned map. Unless you can share your own experience with autotuning using the PV, then I'm afraid any opinions about dynotuning are somewhat one-sided and suspect. There's a reason why Dynojet, the maker of the dynos used by almost every pro-tuner, are the developer's and maker's of the PowerVision. They clearly know where the market is heading.

No, no  8)
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grc

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2013, 12:27:48 PM »


Enlighten me please.  When you talk about the PV "auto tuning", are you talking about the device actually altering the base map all by itself, or are you perhaps talking about the device collecting data that you can use to alter the map yourself using their software?  The TTS and SEPST have the latter system as well, but that is not "auto" tuning, that is data collection and manual tuning by the owner.  True auto tuning, if such a thing really existed, wouldn't require any input from the customer at all.  BTW, real tuning involves a lot more than just fuel mixtures. 

As to the capabilities of the various brands, I'll leave that up to someone who has personally used them all to hash out.  But I stand by my previous statement that there is no such thing as a true "Auto Tune".  Perhaps if folks would stop using that BS marketing description of the products it would help reduce the misunderstandings and vitriol involved in these threads.  The only thing truly automatic is death and taxes.

Jerry ;)
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JJAA

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2013, 12:41:53 PM »

Enlighten me please.  When you talk about the PV "auto tuning", are you talking about the device actually altering the base map all by itself, or are you perhaps talking about the device collecting data that you can use to alter the map yourself using their software?  The TTS and SEPST have the latter system as well, but that is not "auto" tuning, that is data collection and manual tuning by the owner.  True auto tuning, if such a thing really existed, wouldn't require any input from the customer at all.  BTW, real tuning involves a lot more than just fuel mixtures.  

As to the capabilities of the various brands, I'll leave that up to someone who has personally used them all to hash out.  But I stand by my previous statement that there is no such thing as a true "Auto Tune".  Perhaps if folks would stop using that BS marketing description of the products it would help reduce the misunderstandings and vitriol involved in these threads.  The only thing truly automatic is death and taxes.

Jerry ;)
"the device actually altering the base map all by itself" Yes, that's for now
"the device collecting data that you can use to alter the map yourself using their software" Yes, that was the only way before.

True autotuning, from my point of view, would be (or is) done on the fly, permanently...

Powervision prepares bike for collecting data, collects them, compute and allow to flash the ECM with the result.
This is done engine stopped, and can be done on the side of the road...
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 12:43:31 PM by JJAA »
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hrdtail78

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2013, 01:18:23 PM »

I was sure one had to be a VENDOR to post items or services such as this on our forum???

I mentioned prices only to make a point and not to promote my business.  With that said.  I have been straightened out by the mods and pointed in the right direction.  They are on it. 

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Heatwave

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2013, 05:23:33 PM »

Enlighten me please.  When you talk about the PV "auto tuning", are you talking about the device actually altering the base map all by itself, or are you perhaps talking about the device collecting data that you can use to alter the map yourself using their software?  The TTS and SEPST have the latter system as well, but that is not "auto" tuning, that is data collection and manual tuning by the owner.  True auto tuning, if such a thing really existed, wouldn't require any input from the customer at all.  BTW, real tuning involves a lot more than just fuel mixtures.  

As to the capabilities of the various brands, I'll leave that up to someone who has personally used them all to hash out.  But I stand by my previous statement that there is no such thing as a true "Auto Tune".  Perhaps if folks would stop using that BS marketing description of the products it would help reduce the misunderstandings and vitriol involved in these threads.  The only thing truly automatic is death and taxes.

Jerry ;)

Autotuning with the PV is very different in practice than with TTS or SEPST. I've completed dozens perhaps a hundred tunes as I've experimented with various setups. The fields that are modified would be very familiar to anyone that has done dyno-tuning however the user doesn't have to view any fields at all to autotune unless they want to.

From a process POV its extremely easy and can be done on the road and without a laptop. I have the PV mounted on my handlebar just like a GPS. When it's not tuning the rider can view engine temp and many other parameters of the bike's performance in "realtime".

1) Autotuning on a PV is accomplished by pressing a single button to autotune an existing map (6 maps can be retained on the PV at any one time). The PV then automatically flashes a new map to the bike. This new map is identical to the original map except that 4 degrees of timing has been removed from across the Spark tables and the AFR has been moved to closed loop across the entire map.

2) Just go and ride. Enjoy time in the saddle instead of letting your bike crank up hundreds of miles on a dyno. The PV collects data and that's all it does at this point. You can stop and restart and collect data as you wish.

3) When you've completed your data collection (20 mins of variable load and riding conditions is generally a good data collection to start), you simply press another button on the screen to "export learned data". This will create a new map file to be stored in one of the 6 slots on the PV. This exporting function will restore the map to its original AFR and spark settings and update the file with new VEs that will cover all cells where enough data was collected in VE cells from 20-100KPa and from 1000-7000rpm

4) Flash the new autotuned map to the bike and ride. In almost every case the change will be noticeable unless you already had an efficient map to start with. That's all there is to it.

With the PV you can autotune and never even leave the saddle however you do need to stop and flash the new map to bike.  

If you're more knowledgeablea about tuning, you can dismount the PV, bring it inside, connect it to a laptop and do more extensive analysis of the map and the bikes performance using WINPV which comes with the device and is also used to update the map library and the firmware on the PV using the internet. Its very slick. If you want to "know nothing" and just tune, you really never need to connect to a laptop other than updating files as new services are released. Or if you want to know more about what's going in in the tuning process, you just bring it inside and analyze to your heart's content using your laptop in the comfort of your easy chair.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 05:30:40 PM by Heatwave »
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hrdtail78

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2013, 06:14:59 PM »

Enlighten me please.  When you talk about the PV "auto tuning", are you talking about the device actually altering the base map all by itself, or are you perhaps talking about the device collecting data that you can use to alter the map yourself using their software?  The TTS and SEPST have the latter system as well, but that is not "auto" tuning, that is data collection and manual tuning by the owner.  True auto tuning, if such a thing really existed, wouldn't require any input from the customer at all.  BTW, real tuning involves a lot more than just fuel mixtures. 

As to the capabilities of the various brands, I'll leave that up to someone who has personally used them all to hash out.  But I stand by my previous statement that there is no such thing as a true "Auto Tune".  Perhaps if folks would stop using that BS marketing description of the products it would help reduce the misunderstandings and vitriol involved in these threads.  The only thing truly automatic is death and taxes.

Jerry ;)

No it doesn't auto tune all by itself.  It's a flashed base tuner.  Like all flash based tuning products.  You need to flash the ECM with the new data.
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brassspike

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2013, 09:19:11 PM »

To the OP. I have only true duals, mufflers, and K&N. I elected to take mine all the way to Doc as I had some other business down there. The drivability is GREATLY improved over stock and my own vtune. Now I know its the best it can be. Find a tuner that you trust to do it right and have it tuned. I don't have a dog in this fight. Just my .02
Good luck!
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Steve Cole

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2013, 09:30:48 PM »

Autotuning with the PV is very different in practice than with TTS or SEPST. I've completed dozens perhaps a hundred tunes as I've experimented with various setups. The fields that are modified would be very familiar to anyone that has done dyno-tuning however the user doesn't have to view any fields at all to autotune unless they want to.

From a process POV its extremely easy and can be done on the road and without a laptop. I have the PV mounted on my handlebar just like a GPS. When it's not tuning the rider can view engine temp and many other parameters of the bike's performance in "realtime".

1) Autotuning on a PV is accomplished by pressing a single button to autotune an existing map (6 maps can be retained on the PV at any one time). The PV then automatically flashes a new map to the bike. This new map is identical to the original map except that 4 degrees of timing has been removed from across the Spark tables and the AFR has been moved to closed loop across the entire map.

2) Just go and ride. Enjoy time in the saddle instead of letting your bike crank up hundreds of miles on a dyno. The PV collects data and that's all it does at this point. You can stop and restart and collect data as you wish.

3) When you've completed your data collection (20 mins of variable load and riding conditions is generally a good data collection to start), you simply press another button on the screen to "export learned data". This will create a new map file to be stored in one of the 6 slots on the PV. This exporting function will restore the map to its original AFR and spark settings and update the file with new VEs that will cover all cells where enough data was collected in VE cells from 20-100KPa and from 1000-7000rpm

4) Flash the new autotuned map to the bike and ride. In almost every case the change will be noticeable unless you already had an efficient map to start with. That's all there is to it.

With the PV you can autotune and never even leave the saddle however you do need to stop and flash the new map to bike.  

If you're more knowledgeablea about tuning, you can dismount the PV, bring it inside, connect it to a laptop and do more extensive analysis of the map and the bikes performance using WINPV which comes with the device and is also used to update the map library and the firmware on the PV using the internet. Its very slick. If you want to "know nothing" and just tune, you really never need to connect to a laptop other than updating files as new services are released. Or if you want to know more about what's going in in the tuning process, you just bring it inside and analyze to your heart's content using your laptop in the comfort of your easy chair.



So with all this said you MUST still have user input, so it's no different than TTS or SESPT other than the use of a laptop during data collection. IT is NOT an Auto Tune in any way shape or form other than a name. TTS was the first to bring this technology to the HD tuning market back in 2008, long before there ever was a PV unit. Dynojet has simply added the display unit and made it do some of the same functions on the display but still requires user input on the display and still requires a Laptop for many of it functions to work.

If you want a display to try and look at as you ride that is smaller than a current day cell phone screen, then thats a nice thing. Many have no need for a display, they would rather just ride once it's tuned up properly, and enjoy it.
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IRISHSE

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2013, 09:36:12 PM »

To the OP. I have only true duals, mufflers, and K&N. I elected to take mine all the way to Doc as I had some other business down there. The drivability is GREATLY improved over stock and my own vtune. Now I know its the best it can be. Find a tuner that you trust to do it right and have it tuned. I don't have a dog in this fight. Just my .02
Good luck!

Thanks I'll check around to see who recommends what and go from there.  Was hoping someone on here could point me in the right direction.
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Heatwave

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2013, 11:26:49 PM »

TTS requires strapping a laptop on your bike. SEPST requires a laptop to download the data from the key attached to the bike. Neither one can autotune without a laptop. Neither TTS or SEPST can autotune with the stock 02 sensors above about 3500rpms and above 60KPa.

The autotuning capabilities are far superior on the PV from both a convenience perspective and tuning across the entire map. The fact that a laptop isn't needed to autotune with the PV makes it a far different animal than either SEPST or TTS.

The average guy has no interest in strapping a laptop to his bike which is needed with TTS and even SEPST (which I've used alot for autotuning as well) requires a laptop. Technology advances and some products simply fall behind. Having used the PV I would never want to go back to the old methodology.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 11:29:05 PM by Heatwave »
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hrdtail78

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2013, 01:08:13 AM »

TTS requires strapping a laptop on your bike. SEPST requires a laptop to download the data from the key attached to the bike. Neither one can autotune without a laptop. Neither TTS or SEPST can autotune with the stock 02 sensors above about 3500rpms and above 60KPa.

The autotuning capabilities are far superior on the PV from both a convenience perspective and tuning across the entire map. The fact that a laptop isn't needed to autotune with the PV makes it a far different animal than either SEPST or TTS.

The average guy has no interest in strapping a laptop to his bike which is needed with TTS and even SEPST (which I've used alot for autotuning as well) requires a laptop. Technology advances and some products simply fall behind. Having used the PV I would never want to go back to the old methodology.

And you say this as a dyno tuner?  I'm not getting involed in a "which tuner is better" debate here.  BUT Dynojet did not develope the vision as much as HD did the SERT.  They both outsourced and brought it to market.  Funny you mention the word bootstrap.  Another topic.  Vision does have tuning computer free.  Not something as a "suspect" dyno tuner see's as a positive thing.   I would rather have a product that allows me more access to the ECM and focus's on data collecting.  You are proving my point.  Who wants an automated tune, when for less money you can have a hand built one?

To expand on Doc.  6000rpm = 50 engine firing cycles per second per cylinder.    2 per second is 1 out of every 25.  That is not good enough for me.  Sure it changes the VE's around.  Is that for the better.  BTW.  SE products also collects data and map VE's with this data.  Doesn't make it good data.
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Fattbaggernknox

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2013, 07:20:30 AM »

Is it possible to have a forum where "Kool-Aid" & BS aren't served in every post?  :jack:
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Doc 1

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2013, 07:23:46 AM »

TTS requires strapping a laptop on your bike. SEPST requires a laptop to download the data from the key attached to the bike. Neither one can autotune without a laptop. Neither TTS or SEPST can autotune with the stock 02 sensors above about 3500rpms and above 60KPa.

The autotuning capabilities are far superior on the PV from both a convenience perspective and tuning across the entire map. The fact that a laptop isn't needed to autotune with the PV makes it a far different animal than either SEPST or TTS.

The average guy has no interest in strapping a laptop to his bike which is needed with TTS and even SEPST (which I've used alot for autotuning as well) requires a laptop. Technology advances and some products simply fall behind. Having used the PV I would never want to go back to the old methodology.

Do you really believe what you are saying here.......!!!!!!!! You are like a horse with blinders however the horse sees more that you do. You are so deceived heatwave and you're making a fool out of your self now.
Use what ever tuner you like but stop the BS    
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cpm83

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2013, 07:37:39 AM »

+1 on the PowerVision.  I like mine and you can do a lot more with it than just tune.  Read and clear DTC`s,  monitor many different parameters in real time.
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Heatwave

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Re: Tuner for 2012 110 motor
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2013, 07:39:53 AM »

Interesting how facts are considered BS by those that have vested interest in the outcome. I have no financial stake in any of these products.  Which makes it quite interesting to read the twists and turns others make that have a commercial interest.

My view was simply stated from the beginning. A dyno tune is a waste for a guy just looking to tune a stock bike that has had the cat removed (OP). Having used Sepst extensively as we'll as the Powervision, I find the PV to be a superior and simpler auto tuning device. I find strapping a laptop to a bike to be a outmoded method for Autotuning a bike given the alternatives.

These facts are hardly BS or Koolaid. The readers can reach their own conclusions and also see who has a vested stake and who doesn't.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 07:43:23 AM by Heatwave »
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