Topic: Twitchy handling in a straight line (Read 27287 times)

Landshark · « **on:** June 22, 2013, 09:05:11 PM »

We just purchased a 2013 CVO Ultra at the beginning of May. I traded in my 2012 skunk for this bike so I am familiar with the new frame. It has spent most of life in the shop chasing a constant twitching in the ride. When you travel straight down the road it moves like it is running on a seam in the pavement or driving on a slick surface. It requires constant input into the handlebars since it can't seem to keep it's balance and the bike feels like it is dancing underneath you. So far the repairs under warranty include the following: The front and rear tires have been replaced since the tread was defective on both. The lower chrome cowl piece (under the headlight) that was installed by the factory was from a Tri-Glide causing air to enter the fairing and movement of the front end. All the torque on the bolts for the shocks, swing arm etc. have been verified to specifications. Front end has been check for the correct amount of fork oil and proper steering head adjustment. The shocks are not holding air overnight and will be replaced under warranty. The bike has been taken to another dealer since the first one has given up. The factory has been notified and is involved. The bike is causing my wife to have motion sickness, something she never gets. Has anyone experienced this type of issue? Could the style of wheels on the CVO Ultra be an issue? Could changing out the Dunlaps help? Does anyone have any other ideas?

phato1 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 22, 2013, 09:33:53 PM »

You didn't mention this in your post so I'll ask. Has the alignment of both wheels in relationship to each other - and the frame/swingarm been checked?? Did the dealer check/replace the wheel bearings? Maybe one of the wheels is defective (out of true or out of round - although if it were out of round I suspect you would feel the oscillation)?

Landshark · « **Reply #2 on:** June 22, 2013, 09:42:24 PM »

The wheels were supposed to have been checked when the wheels were removed to replace the tires. No one at the dealers feels the alignment is an issue with the new frame, unlike the old one, and I have not been able to find much on the internet about it. Do you have an idea on where else to look? I will ask the dealer if I can look at their service manual as soon as I can get over there. Thank you for the input.

erniezap · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2013, 01:30:31 AM »

I am pretty sure that I know what is causing it. It is the chisel wheels since I had similar issues. Have your dealer or mechanic swap out your front wheel with a stock non-cvo wheel and then take it for a ride. I can pretty much tell you that the issues will be gone. I had the dealer and Metal Dragon agree that it was the wheels but the moco basically told me to f-off when I registered the problem with them. Just about every other SEUC with the chisel wheels that I have rode handle this way. I switched to 18" agitator wheels front and rear and the bike is stable and handles great!

Cvostu · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2013, 02:02:39 AM »

i have heard the same issue before with the Chisel wheels before, as Earnie stated.. Hope thats the culprit,, then you can ask for new wheels like the one he has.

grc · « **Reply #5 on:** June 23, 2013, 10:32:26 AM »

Quote from: Landshark on June 22, 2013, 09:42:24 PM

The wheels were supposed to have been checked when the wheels were removed to replace the tires. No one at the dealers feels the alignment is an issue with the new frame, unlike the old one, and I have not been able to find much on the internet about it. Do you have an idea on where else to look? I will ask the dealer if I can look at their service manual as soon as I can get over there. Thank you for the input.

The old frame had special tools and a shop manual procedure to align the engine and swingarm to the frame. When they changed the frame and the mounts for the engine, they eliminated the adjustability. However, just because Harley claims alignment is not needed (or possible) doesn't mean they always build every frame to the extremely tight tolerances such a thing requires. In other words, considering all the other issues they have with wider than normal industry tolerances, I wouldn't just assume, as your dealer obviously did, that because it isn't adjustable it must be good.

If you want to verify alignment, see if you can find a shop that does accident repairs and has frame equipment. I've seen laser alignment rigs that allow you to measure front to rear tire alignment as well as other things, and I've also seen very simple methods that use a couple long straightedges and a regular ruler (I've done that myself in the old days). I've even seen a recommendation to use a couple long fluorescent tubes as the straightedges. Where there is a will, there are usually several ways.

I have also seen several reports like the one posted by Ernie about those wheels. Before you get carried away checking frames and alignment you may want to just follow his advice and have the dealer swap the wheel from a different model for your's and take a test ride. Harley hates to ever admit a screwup, and rarely does unless they're pushed to do so, but at least if a different wheel eliminates the problem you will have some evidence you can use in your quest to get the bike fixed or replaced (lemon law anyone?).

Jerry

Landshark · « **Reply #6 on:** June 23, 2013, 01:01:33 PM »

Thank you so much for the feedback. I will be at the dealer on Tuesday and see if I can get the front wheel changed. I will follow up with a post as soon as I can.

49445CVO · « **Reply #7 on:** June 23, 2013, 04:22:24 PM »

Im having the same issue with my 2006 SEUC. I have have posted a similar post and I was told by several people that it could be the stering head bolts... I just went on my yearly trip with the guys and wound up bringing it to a dealer in Louisville,KY. They had it for 4 hours and went over the front end and basically said that the tire was not balanced. I have dyna beads and well I'm looking into that. But the feeling I have is the same as you describe. I didn't realize how bad it was until I rented a 2011 SG in Vegas last fall. That bike was straight as an arrow and didn't move at all while on the highway. I was even riding behind and along side of semi trucks and nothing seemed to bother it. My bike is like a wild horse and seems as if im riding in turbulance all the time. BTW my rims are stock, not sure if that has anything to do with it.

I will be watching this thread closly.

Rick

Landshark · « **Reply #8 on:** July 11, 2013, 10:06:09 PM »

It has taken a long time to get to the point where I am able to post the results of the wheel change. This bike has had everything checked and rechecked, faulty tires replaced and wrong parts replaced. I asked the dealer to install the wheels I borrowed from a Street Glide but they would only install them if I paid for 3 hours of labor. Instead I changed the wheels myself. The change instantly corrected the twitchy handling and the unstable feel when riding the bike at operating speeds. HD Customer Support said they can't do anything as this is a warranty issue. Now that everything else has been tried and they will not admit there is anything wrong with the wheel design, HD Tech Support said the bike is within tolerance so they will do nothing further. You will notice in the Parts and Accessory catalog there are no other wheel which are considered acceptable for the2012-2013 CVOs. I know others have had this problem and I would suggest, if you have this same problem and it is subtle, you should make a complaint to the NHTSA which I have done. I think it is wrong to have to spend this amount of money for a motorcycle and then have to replace the wheels at my expense to correct a design defect. I am not yet sure which wheels I will use but I will post when I decide and installation is complete.

erniezap · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2013, 12:20:42 AM »

Quote from: Landshark on July 11, 2013, 10:06:09 PM

I know others have had this problem and I would suggest, if you have this same problem and it is subtle, you should make a complaint to the NHTSA which I have done. I think it is wrong to have to spend this amount of money for a motorcycle and then have to replace the wheels at my expense to correct a design defect.

Totally agree! I registered a complaint with the NHTSA as well a few months ago. Everyone else that has this issue with the chisel wheels should do the same!

05Train · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2013, 05:49:45 AM »

What's the issue with the wheels, they're unbalanced? I have a '12 and don't have this problem thankfully.

Landshark · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2013, 10:37:23 AM »

My guess is the shape of the spokes is causing turbulence and causing the wheel to move.

05Train · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2013, 10:49:00 AM »

Quote from: Landshark on July 12, 2013, 10:37:23 AM

My guess is the shape of the spokes is causing turbulence and causing the wheel to move.

That's bizarre. I've had no issue setting the cruise and taking both hands off of the bars for minutes at a time with no wobble or shake. It tracks as well as my Limited with Agitators did.

This just reads like a balance issue with the wheel itself.

Either way, it's screwed-up that Mother Harley isn't stepping up on this. Have either your service writer or a tech ridden the bike with the new wheels on it? I have to believe that they'd admit there was something boned-up somewhere.

hep0950 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 13, 2013, 04:39:07 PM »

o5train, I agree. It has to be a balance, or maybe a wheel bearing thing. I have an 2012 lfhtcuse07 and do not have the problem they seem to be having. I have about 6000 on mine and have not experienced their problem. The Moco, or at least their dealers should be taking a more active part in satisfying their customers. I wonder also, if by chance there was a bad batch of tires causing the problem.

erniezap · « **Reply #14 on:** July 13, 2013, 04:56:29 PM »

Wheel bearing were fine, wheel/tire was rebalanced twice, each with no improvement. I can pretty much guarantee that if we switched bikes and took a short ride on the highway you would understand what we are talking about.

06ULTRASE · « **Reply #15 on:** July 13, 2013, 05:54:25 PM »

I have had my 2013 for 3 weeks now. The first time the wife and I rode on the interstate she was concerned with the moving around we were felling. Having ridden Electra Glides all my HD riding career with the exception of the last year and a half on a Road Glide I didn't think that much about it but it's more than I remember from previous bikes. I only notice the wondering at highway speeds following a large vehicle. I'm going to follow this thread closely.

05Train · « **Reply #16 on:** July 13, 2013, 06:02:05 PM »

Quote from: erniezap on July 13, 2013, 04:56:29 PM

Wheel bearing were fine, wheel/tire was rebalanced twice, each with no improvement. I can pretty much guarantee that if we switched bikes and took a short ride on the highway you would understand what we are talking about.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting there's an issue. But "turbulence from the spokes" doesn't make sense, especially since there are bikes that don't exhibit this problem. Since the problem went away when the wheels were switched, it's clearly not an issue with the suspension or the bike's alignment (unless the rear wheel was cocked).

But yeah, I'd love to swap bikes with someone who's having this issue to see exactly what they're talking about.

PierceEye · « **Reply #17 on:** July 13, 2013, 08:51:18 PM »

But it is not common among all of them it seems, so to me that strikes out turbulence (change) from the wheels is what I meant IMO

grc · « **Reply #18 on:** July 13, 2013, 10:43:53 PM »

Quote from: 05train on July 13, 2013, 06:02:05 PM

Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting there's an issue. But "turbulence from the spokes" doesn't make sense, especially since there are bikes that don't exhibit this problem. Since the problem went away when the wheels were switched, it's clearly not an issue with the suspension or the bike's alignment (unless the rear wheel was cocked).

But yeah, I'd love to swap bikes with someone who's having this issue to see exactly what they're talking about.

It doesn't have to be turbulence, it could be that some of those wheels were mismachined or have other flaws that affect lateral runout, imbalance, or tracking. We've already seen improperly machined wheels on earlier CVO's that caused brake rotor warpage, so obviously Harley's wheel supplier is quite capable of screwing up.

If the bike has the problem with wheel A and tire A, and the problem is completely eliminated with a change to wheel B and tire B, the odds are pretty good that the wheel or tire is the problem. Since the guys with the problem have reported already having the tires changed with no improvement, that tips the scales toward a wheel problem.

The big issue is the same one many of us have had over the years when dealing with defects from Harley. If Harley has decided to disavow all knowledge or possiblity of a defect, then very few of us have been willing to spend more on attorney fees than it would cost us to just fix the crap ourselves. Harley counts on the customers giving up and fixing defects themselves, and sadly they get away with it much more often than not. Considering how much two new wheels appropriate for a CVO will cost, this might be a time when it's worth it to at least consult with an attorney before letting Harley get away with it again.

Jerry

05Train · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2013, 11:13:06 PM »

Quote from: grc on July 13, 2013, 10:43:53 PM

It doesn't have to be turbulence, it could be that some of those wheels were mismachined or have other flaws that affect lateral runout, imbalance, or tracking. We've already seen improperly machined wheels on earlier CVO's that caused brake rotor warpage, so obviously Harley's wheel supplier is quite capable of screwing up.

If the bike has the problem with wheel A and tire A, and the problem is completely eliminated with a change to wheel B and tire B, the odds are pretty good that the wheel or tire is the problem. Since the guys with the problem have reported already having the tires changed with no improvement, that tips the scales toward a wheel problem.

It absolutely means that the wheel or tire is the problem, I'm just saying that I don't buy the turbulence theory.

oe542bob · « **Reply #20 on:** July 14, 2013, 09:18:13 AM »

Just saw this thread. I have a 2012 CVO Ultra, and your description is how my bike is too. It's not scary, per se, but as you say, it feels "twitchy". I haven't ever said anything to the dealer about it, figuring I would be looked at like I "have 2 heads"! It's interesting to see that changing the wheels, eliminated the twitching. Wheels that come on the Ultra are not to my liking, and are a real pain to clean. I would prefer to have the agitator wheels, like the Streetglide CVOs come with. Just don't want to spend the money to change them. But since I've read this entire post and changing the stock wheels eliminates the twitching, it may just push me to do it. But why when you look in the catalog, it doesn't show that they fit the CVO Ultra?

Quote from: Landshark on June 22, 2013, 09:05:11 PM

We just purchased a 2013 CVO Ultra at the beginning of May. I traded in my 2012 skunk for this bike so I am familiar with the new frame. It has spent most of life in the shop chasing a constant twitching in the ride. When you travel straight down the road it moves like it is running on a seam in the pavement or driving on a slick surface. It requires constant input into the handlebars since it can't seem to keep it's balance and the bike feels like it is dancing underneath you. So far the repairs under warranty include the following: The front and rear tires have been replaced since the tread was defective on both. The lower chrome cowl piece (under the headlight) that was installed by the factory was from a Tri-Glide causing air to enter the fairing and movement of the front end. All the torque on the bolts for the shocks, swing arm etc. have been verified to specifications. Front end has been check for the correct amount of fork oil and proper steering head adjustment. The shocks are not holding air overnight and will be replaced under warranty. The bike has been taken to another dealer since the first one has given up. The factory has been notified and is involved. The bike is causing my wife to have motion sickness, something she never gets. Has anyone experienced this type of issue? Could the style of wheels on the CVO Ultra be an issue? Could changing out the Dunlaps help? Does anyone have any other ideas?

Landshark · « **Reply #21 on:** July 14, 2013, 10:26:37 AM »

Since I have been dealing with this, my dealer has been talking to HD Tech Support. Tech Support is claiming that the Agitator wheels can cause a "dynamic handling" issue on the 2012-2013 CVOs. You will notice that ALL the other wheels for touring bikes also state "incompatibility" with 2012-2013 CVOs. It even states stock touring wheels are incompatible. I feel the "Chisel" wheels cause a "dynamic handling" issue". Could it be that HD does not want to admit there could be a problem with the "Chisel" wheels? I can only speculate. I strongly suggest you and anyone else who feels it to contact their dealer and also the NHTSA. Harley will not do anyhing until more people speak up.

erniezap · « **Reply #22 on:** July 14, 2013, 11:07:02 AM »

The reason that the Agitators "are not compatible" is that they don't come in 16"/17" sizes. I went 18/18 and I am very happy. The only downside of an 18" rear wheel is that the only tire available with an appropriate weight rating is the stock Dunlop.

oe542bob · « **Reply #23 on:** July 14, 2013, 04:57:43 PM »

Hey, Erniezap, did the 18/18 change cause inaccurate speedo readings?

Quote from: erniezap on July 14, 2013, 11:07:02 AM

The reason that the Agitators "are not compatible" is that they don't come in 16"/17" sizes. I went 18/18 and I am very happy. The only downside of an 18" rear wheel is that the only tire available with an appropriate weight rating is the stock Dunlop.

erniezap · « **Reply #24 on:** July 14, 2013, 06:47:54 PM »

Not at all. Jim (HD-Dude) double checked as well

sanjoseduke · « **Reply #25 on:** July 16, 2013, 08:17:41 PM »

I just returned from a 4k mile ride to the west coast GTG in Santa Fe and am thoroughly disgusted with the poor handling of my 2013 ultra cuse 8. I never felt safe over 65 mph (slower in the twistiest) as the front end of the bike wanted to wander all over the place. I guess I'll have to purchase a new front wheel and tire to see if this improves the handling. If not--- I' guess I will have to choose another bike manufacture. I could run my 06 cuse all day long at 90+ and it was as steady as a rock. Anyone have a front wheel for sale? If so PM me.

sanjoseduke · « **Reply #26 on:** July 16, 2013, 08:36:15 PM »

GRC "But yeah, I'd love to swap bikes with someone who's having this issue to see exactly what they're talking about."
Come out to California and you can ride my 2013 ulrta SEUC8 all you want, you wont want to ride it very far!

grc · « **Reply #27 on:** July 16, 2013, 08:49:10 PM »

Quote from: sanjoseduke on July 16, 2013, 08:36:15 PM

GRC "But yeah, I'd love to swap bikes with someone who's having this issue to see exactly what they're talking about."
Come out to California and you can ride my 2013 ulrta SEUC8 all you want, you wont want to ride it very far!

That wasn't me Duke, I believe the person you are quoting is 05train. I believe you guys. I think what you need is to get the clown running H-D to come out and ride your bike. Perhaps after it scares the chit out of him he will stop being such a cheap azz and get his people to fix these things. Not likely, but we could hope.

Jerry

Landshark · « **Reply #28 on:** July 16, 2013, 09:11:33 PM »

I was told by my dealer, that Jeanette, the factory regional rep, rode mine and said she could not feel or duplicate the twitchy handling. The HD authorized dealers seem to be distancing themselves from this issue. I was able to get one authorized HD mechanic to validate it on two separate occasions. Harley just keeps saying the bike it within their acceptable tolerances. Again, anyone who is experiencing this issue, please bring it to your dealer's attention. If anyone would like the number to HD Customer Service, here it is 1-800-258-2464. When prompted, press 2, 6, and then 1. HD needs to know this is a problem on their flagship motorcycle.

tweeter13 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 16, 2013, 09:32:02 PM »

I am not sure if I was having the same problem or not as you guys were. When I first got mine I noticed after aa week or so it just wasn't quite right. I put mine one the jack, and could feel the steering head bearings were way out of adjustment. I took it in and they did their little talk and did the tire pressure check. And then he test drove it he could not believe I rode it there. I can't believe that it wasn't caught when the bike was pre-serviced.
He adjusted the steering head bearings not a problem since.

Todd.

Landshark · « **Reply #30 on:** July 16, 2013, 10:17:38 PM »

My steering head bearings have been checked twice. I wish that would have solved the problem.

NH Bulldog · « **Reply #31 on:** July 17, 2013, 02:29:46 PM »

Mine "appears" tolerable as long as we are both on it. Just did a 635 mile trip this weekend and no issues, but when I rode to the dealer yesterday for the 10k service, it was all over the road...felt a lot of wobble. Asked the dealer to look at it. I wonder if someone with the wheel/tire plan (I didn't get one), might have an encounter with a sizeable pothole and get a new wheel by that method? Either way, I filed a complaint with NHTSA, listed under 2012 FLHTCUSE7 wheels, suspension, steering. It said no other listings for model and year of bike, so maybe I am the only one having an issue with my '12 Ultra CVO?

Landshark · « **Reply #32 on:** July 17, 2013, 04:50:43 PM »

The NHTSA complaints are under specific headings. erniezap's complaint is under "2102 H-D FLHTCUSE7" and mine is under "2013 H-D FLHTCUSE". My wife also experiences the twitchy handling when she is the solo rider and also when she is the passenger with me.

brosen101 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 17, 2013, 05:49:03 PM »

Been following this thread, and sort of like Web MD, now I'M starting to wonder if I have "twitchy handling" too!

Have had my '13 CUSE8 for a few months, put a couple thousand miles on it via street, highway, very high speeds and low, single and two up. After following this thread for a bit, I started looking for that twitchy handling.

Luckily, I am not experiencing twitchy handling or any bad handling behaviors from the bike - she's been laser tight under every circumstance. I get a bit of wind buffeting, but I equate that to the shield shape / height, and whatever the wind is deciding to do at that particular moment.

I'm wondering...are most owners of our year/model having this issue, or most not having it?

Sidenote: Had solids on my '03 HRSE12 - you wanna talk about "twitchy" handling...try riding at high speeds in cross winds with that bad boy. Ey carumba!!

2UP3DOWN · « **Reply #34 on:** July 17, 2013, 07:25:52 PM »

Guess I'll jump in on this one too...

My 2013 Ultra feels a little twitchy at times. I would describe it as the front wheel seems to slightly wobble or twitch under the bike, usually under conditions over 45 mph and it also seems worse when it's very windy... At times I dont feel it at all... Seems to come and go.

Been to the dealship and they swear up and down that there's nothing wrong with the bike. They performed the "checks" and everything is within tolerance. They've ridden it multiple times and the tech doesnt feel it...

what to do...

erniezap · « **Reply #35 on:** July 17, 2013, 08:29:10 PM »

Quote from: EagleGlider on July 17, 2013, 07:25:52 PM

Guess I'll jump in on this one too...

My 2013 Ultra feels a little twitchy at times. I would describe it as the front wheel seems to slightly wobble or twitch under the bike, usually under conditions over 45 mph and it also seems worse when it's very windy... At times I dont feel it at all... Seems to come and go.

Been to the dealship and they swear up and down that there's nothing wrong with the bike. They performed the "checks" and everything is within tolerance. They've ridden it multiple times and the tech doesnt feel it...

what to do...

Like I have said repeatedly. It is the chisel front wheel. Have your dealer ride your bike on the highway then put a stock StreetGlide wheel on and repeat the ride. Totally different handling bikes!

05Train · « **Reply #36 on:** July 17, 2013, 10:58:43 PM »

Quote from: erniezap on July 17, 2013, 08:29:10 PM

Like I have said repeatedly. It is the chisel front wheel. Have your dealer ride your bike on the highway then put a stock StreetGlide wheel on and repeat the ride. Totally different handling bikes!

And I'll say it again; my bike doesn't do this. That's why I'm so intrigued by this.

Landshark · « **Reply #37 on:** July 17, 2013, 11:50:52 PM »

Just as Ernie states, I changed out the front wheel with a used "Street Glide" front wheel and the "twitchy" handling went away. And thanks again Ernie, or I would still be chasing this issue. I am working on replacing the wheels now. I just wish Harley would step up and admit there is a problem. Unless others who are having the same problem bring it to their dealer's attention and that of HD customer service, they never will.

erniezap · « **Reply #38 on:** July 18, 2013, 12:42:31 AM »

For those of you who "don't have the problem", I bet that if you got on a non-CVO Ultra with stock wheels you would notice a big difference in the handling and feel. Take a test ride, you have nothing to lose.

woode · « **Reply #39 on:** July 18, 2013, 02:23:29 AM »

I don't have the problem with mine either. In fact, it is a far more stable ride than my last bike (CUSE4). You mentioned that your shocks lose air overnight, which I assume would contribute greatly to instability. Did replacement improve the ride? Just curious.

05Train · « **Reply #40 on:** July 18, 2013, 10:23:53 AM »

Quote from: erniezap on July 18, 2013, 12:42:31 AM

For those of you who "don't have the problem", I bet that if you got on a non-CVO Ultra with stock wheels you would notice a big difference in the handling and feel. Take a test ride, you have nothing to lose.

Not me. The new bike is as stable as my 2010 FLHTK with stock wheels, and as stable as the 2013 FLTRU I've ridden.

I don't know what to tell you, but my bike doesn't have the problem.

KenK · « **Reply #41 on:** July 18, 2013, 10:57:50 AM »

Quote from: erniezap on July 18, 2013, 12:42:31 AM

For those of you who "don't have the problem", I bet that if you got on a non-CVO Ultra with stock wheels you would notice a big difference in the handling and feel. Take a test ride, you have nothing to lose.

You are absolutely correct! I traded my 13 Limited in on my 13 CVO ultra and the Limited would easily out handle the CVO ...The dealer claims the bike was not set up correctly and will take care of it at the first service..but after reading this post.....well.. I got the same issue

erniezap · « **Reply #42 on:** July 18, 2013, 12:24:49 PM »

Quote from: 05train on July 18, 2013, 10:23:53 AM

Not me. The new bike is as stable as my 2010 FLHTK with stock wheels, and as stable as the 2013 FLTRU I've ridden.

I don't know what to tell you, but my bike doesn't have the problem.

If you say so, not going to argue the point...

brwk · « **Reply #43 on:** July 18, 2013, 12:57:05 PM »

Traded my 2010 FLHTCU for a 13 FLHTCUSE8 and I noticed that my new bikes handling is much better.

05Train · « **Reply #44 on:** July 18, 2013, 01:05:13 PM »

Quote from: erniezap on July 18, 2013, 12:24:49 PM

If you say so, not going to argue the point...

Wise move, as you've not ridden my bike.

I'm not saying that some people aren't experiencing an issue. I am saying that I've got nearly 100,000 miles on Harley Touring bikes, and my CVO is as stable as any other one I've ridden with the new frame.

Fired00d · « **Reply #45 on:** July 18, 2013, 01:10:51 PM »

Quote from: 05train on July 18, 2013, 01:05:13 PM

Wise move, as you've not ridden my bike.

I'm not saying that some people aren't experiencing an issue. I am saying that I've got nearly 100,000 miles on Harley Touring bikes, and my CVO is as stable as any other one I've ridden with the new frame.

As you have not ridden those that are having the problem no matter how many miles you've rode a Harley Touring bike.

Ride Safe,
Fired00d

05Train · « **Reply #46 on:** July 18, 2013, 01:36:33 PM »

Quote from: Fired00d on July 18, 2013, 01:10:51 PM

Quote from: 05train on July 18, 2013, 01:05:13 PM
Wise move, as you've not ridden my bike.

I'm not saying that some people aren't experiencing an issue. I am saying that I've got nearly 100,000 miles on Harley Touring bikes, and my CVO is as stable as any other one I've ridden with the new frame.
As you have not ridden those that are having the problem no matter how many miles you've rode a Harley Touring bike.

A point which I've made several times, including the post you quoted.

Obviously people are having a problem while others are not. That says to me, since it seems pretty clear that the problem is in the wheel/tire/bearing somewhere, that the issue is production tolerances rather than a universal issue with the wheels.

To be clear, since apparently people are still missing it, my bike doesn't have this problem, and I've owned or ridden plenty of new-frame Touring bikes to have a frame of reference. I believe everyone here who is complaining about the twitchy handling issue....They have no reason to lie about it. With everything that's been adjusted and changed, the problem has to be in the wheel itself, but not with all the wheels (since I'm not the only person that doesn't have the problem).

That says to me that it's an issue with production variances.

Fired00d · « **Reply #47 on:** July 18, 2013, 01:52:59 PM »

Quote from: 05train on July 18, 2013, 01:36:33 PM

As you have not ridden those that are having the problem no matter how many miles you've rode a Harley Touring bike.A point which I've made several times, including the post you quoted.

Obviously people are having a problem while others are not. That says to me, since it seems pretty clear that the problem is in the wheel/tire/bearing somewhere, that the issue is production tolerances rather than a universal issue with the wheels.

To be clear, since apparently people are still missing it, my bike doesn't have this problem, and I've owned or ridden plenty of new-frame Touring bikes to have a frame of reference. I believe everyone here who is complaining about the twitchy handling issue....They have no reason to lie about it. With everything that's been adjusted and changed, the problem has to be in the wheel itself, but not with all the wheels (since I'm not the only person that doesn't have the problem).

That says to me that it's an issue with production variances.

Ride Safe,
Fired00d

110tHunDer · « **Reply #48 on:** July 18, 2013, 02:17:07 PM »

Did he say his bike does or does not have this problem?

grc · « **Reply #49 on:** July 18, 2013, 02:46:12 PM »

I'm not sure what the big brouhaha is about. We all know by now, or at least those of us still conscious should know, that Harley has a very serious problem with product variability. Not every CVO110 has blown up, but an alarmingly large number of them have. Not every ETC has failed and gone into limp mode out on the highway, but an alarmingly large number have. Not every compensator has failed (yet), but an alarmingly large number have, often multiple times. Not every Harley has suffered from warped rotors, but a large number have, some multiple times as well. Is anyone starting to see the point here?

It's very easy to see the problem and demand a fix when the failure rate is 100%. Even Harley would have a hard time avoiding sanctions from the regulatory agencies if it was a 100% problem. The problem is that when Harley is confronted by a defect that presents at a lower rate, their first response is always avoidance. They start with a BS campaign claiming they've never heard of such a problem (even though they've had many other calls about the same problem), then they change the story to "yes we've heard of a small number of complaints, but we determined the bikes were within our tolerances", or they try to blame the customer for the problem. They only stop the stonewalling when the negative publicity reaches critical mass, kind of like with the first year 110 engine fiasco, and even then they don't admit to serious defects but pass it off as a voluntary upgrade program.

The people who do have this handling issue need to raise hell at all levels, from the dealership to Harley corporate to the NHTSA. Having one or two people file complaints will have the same result as when a tiny fly attacks an elephant. You all need to step up if you want the elephant to pay attention to your problem.

Jerry

hep0950 · « **Reply #50 on:** July 18, 2013, 08:04:26 PM »

Good reply grc. Not everyone is having the problem for what ever reason. Could it be bearings? When those who change their wheels, is the bearings changed as well? I had an 08 Ultra and my 12 CVO seems to handle a bit lighter and better than the 08. This does not mean others have not had a problem as 05train said. Those who have the problem need to keep hammering at the MOCO. Perhaps if someone runs into Willie they could discuss the problem with him, or another exec that would listen. The problem with most dealers is that they do not like such problems or something that may be a recall. Car dealers are the same way, as are car manufacturers. Has anyone gone to an indy and had them check it out? One thing that my wife an I have found out, is that if you post things on the Facebook page of a business that is not a sterling report, they tend to notice it. I would suggest those having the problem to keep reporting it and maybe put it on their Facebook page.

sadunbar · « **Reply #51 on:** July 18, 2013, 08:59:25 PM »

Quote from: 110tHunDer on July 18, 2013, 02:17:07 PM

Did he say his bike does or does not have this problem?

I'd go with whatever Ernie said...

Landshark · « **Reply #52 on:** July 18, 2013, 09:19:49 PM »

Great idea from hep0950. My wife, who is very active on facebook, has just posted on Harley-Davidson facebook account this issue with the twitchy handling. She is tired of the bike sitting in the garage while we work on replacing the wheels so she can ride the bike. I hope this will get their attention just as hep0950 suggested. I just want H-D to deliver the bike I thought I bought.

05Train · « **Reply #53 on:** July 18, 2013, 09:52:57 PM »

Well put Jerry.

erniezap · « **Reply #54 on:** July 18, 2013, 10:30:21 PM »

Quote from: hep0950 on July 18, 2013, 08:04:26 PM

One thing that my wife an I have found out, is that if you post things on the Facebook page of a business that is not a sterling report, they tend to notice it. I would suggest those having the problem to keep reporting it and maybe put it on their Facebook page.

Thanks for the suggestion! My Facebook post on the Harley-Davidson page:

I have a 2012 CVO Ultra. The bike was unstable at any speed over 60 MPH. After trying numerous things (at my own cost) to stabilize the bike, it turned out that the Chisel front wheel that comes on the CVO Ultra was what was causing the instability. This was determined by mounting my front tire on a stock StreetGlide wheel and taking it for a test ride. With the StreetGlide wheel, the bike handled beautifully and was very stable. My dealer, and myself, both called the Motor Company to discuss this with them. Their answer? We will not do anything regarding wheel replacement unless the chrome is peeling! I ended up spending almost $3,000 for new wheels and tires to make my $38,000 motorcycle, HD's flagship bike, rideable! You would think that the Motor Company would take care of someone who has owned 3 CVO E-Glides and is a loyal customer, but apparently not. There are numerous other 2012 and 2013 CVO Ultra owners experiencing the same issue but Harley Davidson refuses to acknowledge that there is a problem with the Chisel wheels.

blacktop · « **Reply #55 on:** July 19, 2013, 07:02:56 AM »

Perhaps I've missed it but...has anyone that has swapped the chisel wheel with say a Street Glide wheel ridden the Street Glide with the chisel wheel? If the Street Glide was twitchy with the Chisel Wheel, then we can make a further argument that the Chisel wheel may be faulty. Has anyone ridden a Street Glide or any other bike with a faulty Chisel wheel from an Ultra?

05Train · « **Reply #56 on:** July 19, 2013, 07:51:50 AM »

Quote from: blacktop on July 19, 2013, 07:02:56 AM

Perhaps I've missed it but...has anyone that has swapped the chisel wheel with say a Street Glide wheel ridden the Street Glide with the chisel wheel? If the Street Glide was twitchy with the Chisel Wheel, then we can make a further argument that the Chisel wheel may be faulty. Has anyone ridden a Street Glide or any other bike with a faulty Chisel wheel from an Ultra?

That's a helluva idea.

grc · « **Reply #57 on:** July 19, 2013, 08:50:39 AM »

Quote from: blacktop on July 19, 2013, 07:02:56 AM

Perhaps I've missed it but...has anyone that has swapped the chisel wheel with say a Street Glide wheel ridden the Street Glide with the chisel wheel? If the Street Glide was twitchy with the Chisel Wheel, then we can make a further argument that the Chisel wheel may be faulty. Has anyone ridden a Street Glide or any other bike with a faulty Chisel wheel from an Ultra?

Good idea, but I'd recommend putting the wheel on an Ultra, not a Street Glide. There is enough difference between an Ultra and SG in terms of weight, weight distribution, and suspension that it could affect any test and just muddy the water. It's best to eliminate as many variables as possible.

Jerry

blacktop · « **Reply #58 on:** July 19, 2013, 09:37:38 AM »

Quote from: grc on July 19, 2013, 08:50:39 AM

Good idea, but I'd recommend putting the wheel on an Ultra, not a Street Glide. There is enough difference between an Ultra and SG in terms of weight, weight distribution, and suspension that it could affect any test and just muddy the water. It's best to eliminate as many variables as possible.

Jerry

Would assume that you mean another Ultra which doesn't have any problems. That's a great idea. If the Ultra that didn't have a problem is subsequently 'twitchy' then it may suggest an issue with the wheel/tire/bearing.

oe542bob · « **Reply #59 on:** July 19, 2013, 07:50:22 PM »

excellent idea!

Quote from: blacktop on July 19, 2013, 07:02:56 AM

Perhaps I've missed it but...has anyone that has swapped the chisel wheel with say a Street Glide wheel ridden the Street Glide with the chisel wheel? If the Street Glide was twitchy with the Chisel Wheel, then we can make a further argument that the Chisel wheel may be faulty. Has anyone ridden a Street Glide or any other bike with a faulty Chisel wheel from an Ultra?

Landshark · « **Reply #60 on:** July 19, 2013, 09:30:44 PM »

I will try to talk a friend with a Ltd to mount my front wheel after I get another one to replace the one currently holding up the bike.

hep0950 · « **Reply #61 on:** July 20, 2013, 03:19:12 PM »

Quote from: grc on July 19, 2013, 08:50:39 AM

Good idea, but I'd recommend putting the wheel on an Ultra, not a Street Glide. There is enough difference between an Ultra and SG in terms of weight, weight distribution, and suspension that it could affect any test and just muddy the water. It's best to eliminate as many variables as possible.

Jerry

Yes, a good idea. Seems to me there have been problems with wheel bearings as well. Since everyone isn't having the same problems, there has to be a defect somewhere and the list is limited. Bearings, tire, wheel, windshields. I would suspect a manufacturing problem, or an adjustment problem as versus a design problem since everyone isn't experiencing the same problems. I hope a solution will be found soon and hope the Facebook thing will work.

49445CVO · « **Reply #62 on:** July 25, 2013, 07:08:26 AM »

Quote from: Landshark on July 19, 2013, 09:30:44 PM

I will try to talk a friend with a Ltd to mount my front wheel after I get another one to replace the one currently holding up the bike.

I say you send your wheel and tire to 05train to try out.

05Train · « **Reply #63 on:** July 25, 2013, 07:48:48 AM »

Quote from: 49445CVO on July 25, 2013, 07:08:26 AM

I say you send your wheel and tire to 05train to try out.

I shudder to think of the shipping costs.....

16HD117 · « **Reply #64 on:** July 25, 2013, 03:40:59 PM »

Could the twitch and nut issue be related?

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=86508.0

PierceEye · « **Reply #65 on:** July 26, 2013, 07:52:12 PM »

Quote from: blacktop on July 19, 2013, 09:37:38 AM

Would assume that you mean another Ultra which doesn't have any problems. That's a great idea. If the Ultra that didn't have a problem is subsequently 'twitchy' then it may suggest an issue with the wheel/tire/bearing.

Swap wheels between a CVO and a non CVO UC.....

mikevc · « **Reply #66 on:** July 28, 2013, 05:34:45 PM »

Hi,
Thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth . Just had a new tire put on thanks to Harley, side wall cracking. I did have the twitching but after the new tire,which this is my 3rd warranty for side wall cracking. This time no twitching
and was just wondering if turning the wheel 180 degrees made a difference?

Regards,

Mike Van Camp

grc · « **Reply #67 on:** July 28, 2013, 07:33:12 PM »

Quote from: mikevc on July 28, 2013, 05:34:45 PM

Hi,
Thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth . Just had a new tire put on thanks to Harley, side wall cracking. I did have the twitching but after the new tire,which this is my 3rd warranty for side wall cracking. This time no twitching
and was just wondering if turning the wheel 180 degrees made a difference?

Regards,

Mike Van Camp

Are you sure they actually flipped the wheel 180°? Hopefully they didn't because the wheel bearings aren't the same and your ABS won't work. One side has a special bearing made to work with the wheel speed sensor for the ABS, and the other side has a regular bearing.

Jerry

mikevc · « **Reply #68 on:** July 28, 2013, 08:13:22 PM »

No not sure they fliped the wheel just a thought. did not know about the bearings

Mike Van Camp

flyguy · « **Reply #69 on:** July 30, 2013, 09:32:49 AM »

I'm just seeing this and yup I've had the same issue since I purchased the bike; however it seems to me to be a bit worse now. 2013 CUSE8-ANN 4,600 miles.

I've asked the dealer to check the problem 3 times and it's always come back as "can not duplicate" I really hate that response!. The problem is a wobble, which is more pronounced at lower speeds and when I ride solo. I wondered if it had to do with weight distribution, but I don't think so. The front end feels loose to me as if there is too much play either in the neck bearings or wheel bearings. Could be the tire but it doesn't look scalloped, I've checked, by feeling for heat and listening to the wheel bearings and nothing seems unusual. I've done the fall away procedure and it also seems in spec but in my mind it seems too loose. So I may have to try and take it apart and tighten the neck a slight bit to see if there is difference.. I know it's going to be a pain to do this but, i'm getting tired of riding a bike that I really love yet handles so poorly. You would think you should get what you pay for!!! And it's disappointing that the dealer, gives it no credence at all..Geeze Louise!!!!

erniezap · « **Reply #70 on:** July 30, 2013, 09:52:52 AM »

Quote from: flyguy on July 30, 2013, 09:32:49 AM

I'm just seeing this and yup I've had the same issue since I purchased the bike; however it seems to me to be a bit worse now. 2013 CUSE8-ANN 4,600 miles.

I've asked the dealer to check the problem 3 times and it's always come back as "can not duplicate" I really hate that response!. The problem is a wobble, which is more pronounced at lower speeds and when I ride solo. I wondered if it had to do with weight distribution, but I don't think so. The front end feels loose to me as if there is too much play either in the neck bearings or wheel bearings. Could be the tire but it doesn't look scalloped, I've checked, by feeling for heat and listening to the wheel bearings and nothing seems unusual. I've done the fall away procedure and it also seems in spec but in my mind it seems too loose. So I may have to try and take it apart and tighten the neck a slight bit to see if there is difference.. I know it's going to be a pain to do this but, i'm getting tired of riding a bike that I really love yet handles so poorly. You would think you should get what you pay for!!! And it's disappointing that the dealer, that the dealer gives it no credence at all..Geeze Louise!!!!

I would try a different dealer!

flyguy · « **Reply #71 on:** July 30, 2013, 10:54:42 AM »

Yes I plan to; but will keep looking at this thread to see if any definitive solutions are found. If its a design issue there should be a fix eventually.

erniezap · « **Reply #72 on:** July 30, 2013, 10:59:16 AM »

Like I have said previously, the only solution for my bike was to swap out the chisel wheel with an agitator.

sanjoseduke · « **Reply #73 on:** August 07, 2013, 07:30:47 PM »

Quote from: erniezap on July 30, 2013, 10:59:16 AM

Like I have said previously, the only solution for my bike was to swap out the chisel wheel with an agitator.

I just returned from HD Dude's shop with a new 18" agitator and Dunlop HD tire on my new 2013 CUSE8. Wow what a difference, I can now ride over 65 and feel like the bike is hugging the road instead of wandering all over the place. Those chisel wheels are a POS.
I had Jim put my old wheel on his balance machine to check out tire balance... it was within spec, we checked out the rim, tire, and rotor's for run-out all looked within specs, don't ask me but the problem is solved with new wheel and tire!
Ernie...... I am now a believer

PierceEye · « **Reply #74 on:** August 07, 2013, 09:13:27 PM »

So I noticed something Sunday.....if I open the fairing lowers to where they are straight I had better handling.....I still got a little wandering but it did not give me as bad of that float feeling

hep0950 · « **Reply #75 on:** August 08, 2013, 12:49:38 AM »

Quote from: erniezap on July 13, 2013, 04:56:29 PM

Wheel bearing were fine, wheel/tire was rebalanced twice, each with no improvement. I can pretty much guarantee that if we switched bikes and took a short ride on the highway you would understand what we are talking about.

Probably. It has to be something that was a defect since it is not happening to everyone. You say the bearings were fine. Was that because they looked good, or within tolerance? There is just a limited amount of things that the problem could be. It may be faulty wheels, or tires or even bearings even if they look good. Good luck finding the problem.

flyguy · « **Reply #76 on:** August 13, 2013, 08:06:54 PM »

Still trying to find my issue; I did notice that with mine it is slow speed, especially 30 and under and much more pronounced when turning at slow speed, and turning stops etc..
Next step for me is to tighten the neck bearing a notch or 2 to see if that makes a difference. I can't see spending a fortune on new wheels while the bike is under warranty.

05Train · « **Reply #77 on:** August 13, 2013, 08:54:17 PM »

Just weird. I ran my bike through the ERC course at the local dealer Saturday with no issues. Followed that up with plenty of high speed back roads. Other than the vagueness of the stock front end, it's perfect.

Sent from my iPad, probably while I'm pooping.

blacktop · « **Reply #78 on:** August 14, 2013, 07:41:15 AM »

No problems here, went down the road on the weekend hands off the bars at 60 MPH and it went as straight as an arrow.

Soot · « **Reply #79 on:** August 14, 2013, 12:08:41 PM »

Quote from: Landshark on June 22, 2013, 09:05:11 PM

We just purchased a 2013 CVO Ultra at the beginning of May. I traded in my 2012 skunk for this bike so I am familiar with the new frame. It has spent most of life in the shop chasing a constant twitching in the ride. When you travel straight down the road it moves like it is running on a seam in the pavement or driving on a slick surface. It requires constant input into the handlebars since it can't seem to keep it's balance and the bike feels like it is dancing underneath you.[/color] So far the repairs under warranty include the following: The front and rear tires have been replaced since the tread was defective on both. The lower chrome cowl piece (under the headlight) that was installed by the factory was from a Tri-Glide causing air to enter the fairing and movement of the front end. All the torque on the bolts for the shocks, swing arm etc. have been verified to specifications. Front end has been check for the correct amount of fork oil and proper steering head adjustment. The shocks are not holding air overnight and will be replaced under warranty. The bike has been taken to another dealer since the first one has given up. The factory has been notified and is involved. The bike is causing my wife to have motion sickness, something she never gets. Has anyone experienced this type of issue? Could the style of wheels on the CVO Ultra be an issue? Could changing out the Dunlaps help? Does anyone have any other ideas?

Not to chime in after the fact but that is one of first things that I noticed (or should say didn't feel any longer) when I went to the CVO Road King following my accident. I thought for the longest time that it was perhaps my imagination but Landshark you have confirmed it was not. When I got on the SERK (with Agitator wheels) it handled and cornered at highway speeds like it was riding on rails (smooth and effortless). I would never dream of letting go of the handlebars on the SEUC at highway or any other speed because of the unstable feeling. Glad to read that you got it sorted out it terms of confirming what it was. Safe riding brother!

Soot

Landshark · « **Reply #80 on:** August 16, 2013, 12:29:29 AM »

Thank you to all who have replied to this post. I am still dealing with the issue since it has taken a while to get new wheels. I am leery of any HD part since they tend not to stand behind their product. I ordered a new set of Performance Machine Paramount Wheels and they finally arrived today. I am leaving for the HD 110th which will prevent the installation until the middle of September. I have run out of time to deal with this issue until my return. I am anxious to get these wheels and tires installed. I will supply an update, feedback and pictures when I have finished. Please continue to inform your dealer of any problems you encounter with the handling of your bike with Chisel wheels.

rkpultrase · « **Reply #81 on:** August 16, 2013, 08:14:15 AM »

What I am about to say might hurt some feelings but depending how much weight is on the bike (riders and luggage) the front end will get very loose feeling. The more weight distributed towards the rear you will notice this feeling more often.

Sorry...just saying

Soot · « **Reply #82 on:** August 16, 2013, 10:11:31 AM »

Quote from: rkpultrase on August 16, 2013, 08:14:15 AM

What I am about to say might hurt some feelings but depending how much weight is on the bike (riders and luggage) the front end will get very loose feeling. The more weight distributed towards the rear you will notice this feeling more often.

Sorry...just saying

Don't be sorry that you implied that everyone that rides a SEUC is a Porker....lol, just kidding. At 210 lbs I wouldn't say that I was necessarily obese for this particular bike. Yet while riding at highway speeds with no passenger or luggage of any kind; the 2013 SEUC felt unpredictable. Very loose and felt as though you were hanging on and correcting for the twitchiness! Just saying!

Landshark · « **Reply #83 on:** August 16, 2013, 10:58:37 AM »

That may be an issue with some when they load up their bikes with gear but that has not been the case with mine. My wife and I both ride this bike solo and I weigh 180 and she weighs considerably less. We have yet to ride this bike with any added gear. This twitchy feeling has existed from the beginning and was only corrected when I put a stock Street Glide wheel in front.

CVO Jack · « **Reply #84 on:** August 17, 2013, 09:03:31 AM »

Landshark,
I dumped my cvo wheels in Sturgis this year for PM wheels and what a huge difference ..... It's like a whole different machine. Install 21" front and 18" back with Metzlers.
I planned on install a PM 18" front because i was worried about losing a comfortable ride due to less rubber but after talking with the great guys at Performance Machine I decided to go with a 21".... My bike turns on a dime in small areas and at high speeds hugs the road with confidence.
I think PM will be at Hal's HD during the 110th.
I feel you will be very happy.
Jax

hep0950 · « **Reply #85 on:** August 18, 2013, 01:47:48 PM »

I'm curious of why some are having problems with their chiseled wheels and others of us are not? Perhaps they got a bad batch of chiseled wheels. I don't doubt those who have the problem, nor do I doubt those who do not have the problem.

49445CVO · « **Reply #86 on:** August 21, 2013, 01:26:25 PM »

I still have the same issue with my 2006 SEUC and am now wondering if it could be my wheel too? I just put on a new front OEM tire and it seemed a little better but I think it's in my head thinking I helped fix the problem. As for the new statement of weight, my bike acts the same as when it loaded for a trip or stripped down as a SG. It is more of a pronounced wobble at lower speeds and turns and much faster wobble at faster speeds. I too would never be able to fully let go of the handle bars because there is way too much correction going on for me to be able to do so. I discovered this after I rented a 2012 SG from Eagle Riders Las Vegas. That bike was so smooth I couldn't believe the difference.

Any input on my 2006 Wheels would be very helpful.

Ps Neck bearings, bearings and tire have all been checked by a dealer.

Rick

flyguy · « **Reply #87 on:** August 26, 2013, 12:37:50 PM »

Do we all find it interesting that the 2014's now have larger neck bearings and larger fork tubes.....

? Just saying.....! We weren't crazy!!!

blacktop · « **Reply #88 on:** August 26, 2013, 01:18:06 PM »

Quote from: flyguy on August 26, 2013, 12:37:50 PM

Do we all find it interesting the the 2014's now have larger neck bearings and larger fork tubes.....? Just saying.....! We weren't crazy!!!

Just got back from a 3000 mile trip. I was up to 90 MPH several times and no issues with twitchyness on my 2013.

flyguy · « **Reply #89 on:** August 26, 2013, 01:36:13 PM »

I don't have high speed problems either... all low speed issues

110tHunDer · « **Reply #90 on:** August 26, 2013, 01:37:07 PM »

Quote from: flyguy on August 26, 2013, 12:37:50 PM

Do we all find it interesting that the 2014's now have larger neck bearings and larger fork tubes.....? Just saying.....! We weren't crazy!!!

Woulda been nice if they'd have just done that in '09 with the frame redesign. $:-\$

Twolanerider · « **Reply #91 on:** August 26, 2013, 01:43:22 PM »

Quote from: flyguy on August 26, 2013, 12:37:50 PM

Do we all find it interesting that the 2014's now have larger neck bearings and larger fork tubes.....? Just saying.....! We weren't crazy!!!

That was one of the first things that really caught my eye while reviewing the 2014 tech bulletin. Different tightening and adjustment methods, different assembly method, just a whole different kit. Hopefully it addresses what's been a longstanding problem.

One disappointment with it though. When I first saw the descriptions I (apparently mistakenly) thought it was built with sealed bearings. Apparently it's not. Even though it's no longer externally serviceable there was an every 25k mile spec for greasing the bearings/neck. That means every 25k the nose comes off the bike for a bearing pack.... ?

Seriously doubt the great American manufacturer that is Harley Davidson looks for comparison to the ideas of Vladimir Lenin. But when presented with things like that a guy can't help but think "One step forward, two steps back." It's also a service you know many will just never do.

05Train · « **Reply #92 on:** August 26, 2013, 06:23:20 PM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on August 26, 2013, 01:43:22 PM

That was one of the first things that really caught my eye while reviewing the 2014 tech bulletin. Different tightening and adjustment methods, different assembly method, just a whole different kit. Hopefully it addresses what's been a longstanding problem.

One disappointment with it though. When I first saw the descriptions I (apparently mistakenly) thought it was built with sealed bearings. Apparently it's not. Even though it's no longer externally serviceable there was an every 25k mile spec for greasing the bearings/neck. That means every 25k the nose comes off the bike for a bearing pack.... ?

Seriously doubt the great American manufacturer that is Harley Davidson looks for comparison to the ideas of Vladimir Lenin. But when presented with things like that a guy can't help but think "One step forward, two steps back." It's also a service you know many will just never do.

I saw that maintenance interval as well. I'm wondering if it'll be extended after a few years like the fuel filter interval was.

The new tree that bolts the top of the tube, in addition to the 49mm fork tubes, should be real game-changers. I'm curious to see what they've done with spring rates and damper valves, but the hard parts are impressive.

Sent from my iPad, probably while I'm pooping.

Landshark · « **Reply #93 on:** August 26, 2013, 09:20:56 PM »

I saw a new Street Glide today and the wheels are similar in shape to the "Chisel" Wheels. I wonder if this problem will show up on them? Just a thought.

49445CVO · « **Reply #94 on:** August 30, 2013, 11:59:08 AM »

Spoke to my dealership the other day and they said it prolly was the swing arm bearing. Prolly $500.00 lets see if this works kinda thing.

Landshark · « **Reply #95 on:** August 30, 2013, 05:52:34 PM »

Good luck with the possible fix with your bike. I know how frustrating it can be to chase a handling issue. Let us know if it works.

HarleyGuy · « **Reply #96 on:** September 05, 2013, 10:28:04 PM »

From day one, my '13 CVO Ultra seemed to be much more "tippier" (if that's a real word?).
It handles fine at low, middle and high speeds abut it just seems to require more effort to maintain it level.
I can't say that I've noticed any other bad handling characteristics but perhaps I've just adapted to the way my bike handles.

I have a friend who has a '10 Ultra so first chance I get I'll ride his and see if there's a similarity in the handling of the two bikes.
I certainly hope it isn't the wheels since my friend liked my wheels so much that he bought two for his bike!

Landshark · « **Reply #97 on:** September 05, 2013, 11:20:03 PM »

Please ride his bike before he puts on the wheels and then ride yours again. He may want to cancel the order.

HarleyGuy · « **Reply #98 on:** September 06, 2013, 12:59:59 AM »

I plan to, and to also let him ride mine.

We've rode each other's bikes before but only around town.

brosen101 · « **Reply #99 on:** September 06, 2013, 06:22:34 AM »

Quote from: erniezap on July 18, 2013, 12:42:31 AM

For those of you who "don't have the problem", I bet that if you got on a non-CVO Ultra with stock wheels you would notice a big difference in the handling and feel. Take a test ride, you have nothing to lose.

Advice taken, and I definitely do not have that problem. I believe this is a real issue though, no doubt about it. Isn't there an engineer among us that can (independent from MoCo) test the aerodynamics of the chisel vs a stock wheel? I know this is likely a mfg issue since some are having twitchyness and others aren't, but real data might heighten this real problem.

blacktop · « **Reply #100 on:** September 06, 2013, 07:45:02 AM »

Quote from: erniezap on July 18, 2013, 12:42:31 AM

For those of you who "don't have the problem", I bet that if you got on a non-CVO Ultra with stock wheels you would notice a big difference in the handling and feel. Take a test ride, you have nothing to lose.

I came off a '10 Ultra LTD and for me the '13 CVO Ultra is just as steady if not steadier at any speed I would like to travel at. I also think the issue is real....perhaps a bad batch of Chisels were produced...My '13 was one that was built late in the '13 production cycle.

hep0950 · « **Reply #101 on:** September 06, 2013, 12:55:39 PM »

Quote from: blacktop on September 06, 2013, 07:45:02 AM

I came off a '10 Ultra LTD and for me the '13 CVO Ultra is just as steady if not steadier at any speed I would like to travel at. I also think the issue is real....perhaps a bad batch of Chisels were produced...My '13 was one that was built late in the '13 production cycle.

I came off an '08 Ultra to a '12 Ultra CVO and felt that the CVO handled better. I had wire wheels on the '08. I agree with blacktop, that there may have been a bad batch of chisel wheels. They are still using them, and not everyone is having this problem. Another thing that may be the problem is the tires, from what I hear. There have been cracks found on the Dunlop tires down inside the tread. I have also heard that Dunlap is aware of the problem and replacing them is no problem. Someone on the HD Forum site said he noticed it while he had it on his jack. The more I hear of the problem and those who don't have it, the more I think it is a defective part that is the root of the problem. Hopefully it will be found.

doublerunner · « **Reply #102 on:** September 06, 2013, 06:07:43 PM »

Quote from: blacktop on September 06, 2013, 07:45:02 AM

I came off a '10 Ultra LTD and for me the '13 CVO Ultra is just as steady if not steadier at any speed I would like to travel at. I also think the issue is real....perhaps a bad batch of Chisels were produced...My '13 was one that was built late in the '13 production cycle.

Hmmm mine was early in the production and I have the same problem

Landshark · « **Reply #103 on:** September 06, 2013, 07:24:00 PM »

Mine is a late one as I picked it up on the first day of May and the dealer had just gotten it. The front tire was changed out and that did not fix the problem. The Street Glide 18" wheel I installed had a stock Dunlop with 5K on it. That wheel and tire corrected the problem. All other adjustments to the front end were checked and double checked. The only thing left was the wheel. I will install the PM wheels with Metzler tires next week and will post when it is completed. I have never, ever had a twitchy feeling like this on any other bike I have owned or ridden including the 30+ Harleys I have owned dating back to a 1969 XLCH.

doublerunner · « **Reply #104 on:** September 06, 2013, 07:45:43 PM »

Did you only use the stock street glide tire on the front?

It will be interesting to see how your PM wheels work out

It's also interesting to see the 2014's have bigger neck bearings and beefed up forks

Landshark · « **Reply #105 on:** September 07, 2013, 07:28:51 PM »

The Street Glide wheel was a used one off of a 2013 Street Glide with about 5000 miles on it. It was loaned by a friend who switched to a set of 18" and 19" Agitator wheels. I only changed out the front wheel which immediately eliminated the twitchy feeling. As before, I had done everything to eliminate the issue before I tried changing the wheel out. I am anxious to try out the new Street Glide to see if the new wheels which have a very similar design to the "Chisel" wheels produce the same twitchy handling.

Landshark · « **Reply #106 on:** September 21, 2013, 06:24:11 PM »

I have finally installed the new wheels and tires which has corrected all the twitchy handling. The bike now rides and handles as it should have from the factory. The Motor Company has NOT accept any responsibility for the ill handling of the bike. All conversations with them has been that it is within specs. Even though changing the wheels was done on my dime, I am happy to now have the bike I thought I bought in the first place. I went with a 17x6 with a 200/55 in the back and a 18x3.5 with a 130/70 in th front. The wheels and front rotors are from Performance Machine and the tire are Metzler 880's. I will post several pictures of the finished product.

Landshark · « **Reply #107 on:** September 21, 2013, 06:25:21 PM »

another picture

Landshark · « **Reply #108 on:** September 21, 2013, 06:26:26 PM »

another picture

Landshark · « **Reply #109 on:** September 21, 2013, 06:27:56 PM »

picture of the back tire

Landshark · « **Reply #110 on:** September 21, 2013, 06:29:18 PM »

One last picture of the back tire from the rear.

erniezap · « **Reply #111 on:** September 22, 2013, 10:35:17 AM »

Looks great! Glad that you, like me, have a bike that is worth riding now, even if we had to pay for it ourselves.

doublerunner · « **Reply #112 on:** September 22, 2013, 11:07:01 AM »

Glad this worked for you. Interesting that you went up one size on each tire. Did you also make any mods to the suspensions? And on the Metzeler tires did you go with the new 888's or the 880's?

Landshark · « **Reply #113 on:** September 22, 2013, 01:27:23 PM »

The changes to the suspension include JRI rear shocks from Howard at Motorcyclemetal which are wonderful and Racetech with gold valves in the front. I used the Metzler 880's since I have always had good luck with them. Here is a picture of the rear shocks on the bike beore I changed the wheels. Thanks again to Ernie

or I would still have a bike which was un-rideable. I would never have thought the design of the wheel could have caused that much instability.

doublerunner · « **Reply #114 on:** September 22, 2013, 05:04:36 PM »

Yeah I loved the 880's on my last Ultra. I just put on the new 888's on my 13 and love them as well. Much better than the Duncraps that come stock

Landshark · « **Reply #115 on:** September 22, 2013, 06:34:37 PM »

I agree, I will not run the Dunlops D407 and D408 on any of my bikes. I talked to the Dunlop rep at the 110th in Milwaukee and he said the tread pattern is a Harley design not theirs. That is why they are selling the 2nd Generation American Elite through non HD dealers. I haven't ever had a rear tire cup until I ran a D407.

the jacobite · « **Reply #116 on:** September 28, 2013, 06:24:46 PM »

Just to add my tuppence worth.... I have always thought that 2012 ultra was a bit nervous in windy conditions and a bit of a handful when coming up behind large vehicles; especially just before you would pull out to pass if it is a windy day. I had just assumed the fairing was to blame but how wrong I was. Last weekend I met up with an old mate Steve on his standard 2011 ultra and my normal riding buddy Grant, who was on his fat boy low. It was a perfect riding day with just a slight breeze and after about 40 miles we pulled over to swap bikes around. I was surprised when riding behind Steve, (who was on my CVO ultra), that I could see the effect the draught from the bus in front was having on the CVO. As I then came up behind it to pass, the standard ultra was not affected in any way by the turbulence from the bus and at no time did I experience any issue with the handling on his bike. When we stopped for food and a chance to compare notes we all came to the same conclusion that the CVO ultra was badly affected by wind/ turbulence compared to the standard ultra. N.B. My CVO ultra has 1500 miles on it, Steve's ultra has just over 8000 miles on it and is still on it's original tyres.

Landshark · « **Reply #117 on:** September 29, 2013, 12:07:57 AM »

I am so glad you got a chance to ride another bike to see just how much a problem the Chisel wheels cause with the handling My wife and I just traveled on a extremely windy road in Nevada (the highway had high wind warnings posted during our ride). This road is also grooved for rain and snow. Our bike with the new wheels was rock solid, without a hint of twitch or instability, at speeds up to 85 MPH. We would never have been able to do that before getting rid of the Chisel wheels. I recommend you change out your wheels with anything else and your problems will be solved. Good luck.

Chief2505 · « **Reply #118 on:** September 29, 2013, 10:07:40 AM »

My 13 CUSE 8 is at the dealer now for this very same problem. I have always felt that this bike did not handle nor ride very well. It is the first Harley I have ridden that I cannot take my hands of the handle bar for even 1 second without the bike diving right or left.

Hard to explain the problem but it just doesn't "feel" right and the turbulence when within 300 yards of a truck is very noticeable.

Let's hope they find a problem and that I do not receive the standard answer of "they all do that" or cannot duplicate.

Rooster · « **Reply #119 on:** September 29, 2013, 10:47:40 AM »

Just another of MOCO's non support making the customer pay once again. Glad you got it sorted out though. This is really a safety issue, thanks again for nothing MOCO.

05Train · « **Reply #120 on:** September 29, 2013, 12:14:44 PM »

I'm glad you got the problem solved, but it's ridiculous that your dealer didn't go to bat for you.

Sent from my iPad, probably while I'm pooping.

Landshark · « **Reply #121 on:** September 29, 2013, 02:23:51 PM »

This is another example of when you have a choice between a Harley Davidson part or a quality aftermarket part (ie: S&S, Performance Machine, Works Shocks, etc) you always go with the aftermarket. I own 6 Harley's and my wife and I are so upset with Harley's lack of support for this issue I will go out of my way to purchase parts from another manufacturer. Anyone who still has this issue should bring it to the dealer's attention and keep pushing the MOCO. I was very surprised to see the "Chisel" wheels still being std equipment on the new CVO Ltd and still available in the Part & Accessory catalog. They must have produce so many of these wheels they still have to have a home for them. This is just like the primary belt fiasco on the first Strugis motorcycles from 1980-1982. They never could fix the problem and left it to the owners to deal with. I am glad to finally have a bike that works but I should not have had to replace parts at my own large expense to get there.

erniezap · « **Reply #122 on:** September 29, 2013, 02:31:54 PM »

Quote from: Landshark on September 29, 2013, 02:23:51 PM

This is another example of when you have a choice between a Harley Davidson part or a quality aftermarket part (ie: S&S, Performance Machine, Works Shocks, etc) you always go with the aftermarket. I own 6 Harley's and my wife and I are so upset with Harley's lack of support for this issue I will go out of my way to purchase parts from another manufacturer. Anyone who still has this issue should bring it to the dealer's attention and keep pushing the MOCO. I was very surprised to see the "Chisel" wheels still being std equipment on the new CVO Ltd and still available in the Part & Accessory catalog. They must have produce so many of these wheels they still have to have a home for them. This is just like the primary belt fiasco on the first Strugis motorcycles from 1980-1982. They never could fix the problem and left it to the owners to deal with. I am glad to finally have a bike that works but I should not have had to replace parts at my own large expense to get there.

Totally agree! It was a hard $2K pill to swallow when I had to replace the wheels at my expense versus the MOCO standing behind their products.

doublerunner · « **Reply #123 on:** September 29, 2013, 08:07:57 PM »

Nothing will change until there are enough complaints or until someone gets killed. I only saw 2 complaints on the NHTSA site. Mine and Landshark's.

I will also bet there are many more who have this issue but did mods before they noticed it.

erniezap · « **Reply #124 on:** September 30, 2013, 11:00:37 AM »

Quote from: doublerunner on September 29, 2013, 08:07:57 PM

Nothing will change until there are enough complaints or until someone gets killed. I only saw 2 complaints on the NHTSA site. Mine and Landshark's.

I will also bet there are many more who have this issue but did mods before they noticed it.

I was the first to register the complaint on the NHTSA site.

Landshark · « **Reply #125 on:** September 30, 2013, 08:11:58 PM »

Any report done on the NHTSA website will be done by the year, make and model of the bike. Ernie was the first to actually find and list the problem both here and on the NHTSA web sites for his 2012. He then gave me the idea to do the same on my 2013. If he hadn't discovered the wheel as the cause, I know I would still be chasing the twitchy handling issue since the two dealers I took it to said it is within specs. Anyone who feels their bike may have this problem, please report it to the NHTSA. We, as owners of these bikes, need to step up and report the information to someone who can do something about it. I, like so many, have in the past just taken it and said "Oh well, I will just deal with it" but I not anymore. I will report any defect which I believe is a safety issue and hope that enough do the same before someone is injured or killed because of a bad design by the MOCO. Harley should not be allowed to continue to use their customers as R&D and not have to fix, repair or replace their faulty designed products. Thanks to all who have listened to my rant but I am so pissed at Harley for their treatment on this issue.

Author Topic: Twitchy handling in a straight line (Read 27287 times)