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[SteveFLHTK]

Last weekend, I traded my Ultra Limited for a TriGlide due to some health issues.  I will have a Mastertune for the bike in hand but will not have time to change out the head pipe before heading to Sturgis next week.  Assuming I install the Stage 1 airbox (Ness Big Sucker) am I safe loading the canned map for the 103 with air box only and no VTune?  Will I be likely to see some performance gains doing this?  I notice the Trike is pretty much a pig when on a rise in 6th gear, I know the complete Stage 1 package will get rid of that, jsut not enough time.  (I don't get back home until Wednesday evening, and we leave first thing Thursday morning).

Hoping that some of the resident experts will chime in here.

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

A canned map is just a starting point for tuning your engine to run better. Since we dont know were in the country the map was generated at, there a number variables that may cause your engine to run rich or lean, stumble on acceleration, ping worse due to the timing in the map, have hard starting issues either cold or hot. Im not a fan of the stock tune but you might be better off to leave your trike alone until you can get the trike tuned correctly

With a trike your drive train has to deal with the additional 200 lbs of added weight just for the trike kit before any rider, passenger and gear your traveling with. To top it all off the trike is like a brick in the wind. Forget 6th gear, plan on using 4th and 5th in the mountains.

You should get some octane boost and keep it with you in case you get some place that has crappy gas and your engine starts to ping.

[FLTRI]

Why not just do a couple vtunes?
Then the bike will perform well with you knowing it has been properly recalibrated for the changes and cooled down a bit to boot.

Bob

[SteveFLHTK]

No time. I get home Wednesday afternoon and leave Thursday morning.

[FLTRI]

Best bet would be to return the bike to stock pipes and a/c rather than ride a too-lean bike with free breathing exhaust and intake.
The bike came from the factory too lean IMO, and opening up the intake and exhaust just exacerbates the problem.
A long trip running that lean can and does hurt ring seal by overheating the rings due to hot/lean running for long durations as on a cross-country trip.
Just my advice based on seeing the damage for myself many times.
HTH,
Bob
PS - If you have done vtunes before you know it can take as little as 1/2 - 1 hour to get it done. If you haven't done vtuning before, you are right, you don't have time to learn and experiment with it.

[SteveFLHTK]

Never done VTune before, so that's out.  I was not planning on adding exhaust, just the AC.  If I was adding the exhaust as well, I have a good map already.  My question is specifically using the canned map for AC only with AC only on the bike, 100% stock exhaust.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Just throw the AC on the bike and go, would be my recommendation.  If the pipes you have are still stock?  Mufflers, too?  You will be good to go.

The bottleneck on our bikes is the exhaust, and whenever we modify exhausts, we MUST remap the ECM.  (this is so true, no matter WHAT a pipe/muffler company will tell you, and is one BIG reason I really like Fullsac... he tells the truth)That AC shouldn't change the flow characteristics of your bike at all.  Your exhaust is still doing its job of restricting the engine.  There will be no need to use the TTS until such a time you modify the exhaust and get a true Stage 1 on that bike.

Have fun at Sturgis, my friend!  I'm jealous!

[SteveFLHTK]

What I have is all Fullsac, the X-pipe will be going on the bike after Sturgis.  I was actually hoping for a tad more performance with a new map and the AC.  The bike loses speed too quickly on slight grades.

[FLTRI]

A stage 1 TTS will for sure help...as long as with stock head pipe and stock or SE slip ons and air filter.
Also the exhaust mfg may have a good calibration to offer you.
Bob

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Yes, you will in truth gain ZIP with only an AC.  Now... you WOULD gain a bit from tuning your 100% stock bike, but that was NOT the OP.

Go to Sturgis and don't sweat it.  Go stock with stock tune, because if you are time wise unable to optimize the tune, a canned map won't truly help much with your bike.

It sounds to me that you are on the right track, tho.  When you get back... install that AC.  Install those Fullsacs.  Install and tune with TTS.

Those three things WILL wake the bike up, because THAT is a full on Stage1.

[FLTRI]

John,
Consider this:
By loading the stage 1 TTS calibration it will for sure add fuel to open loop areas which helps cool combustion temps under high loading such as bucking headwind, uphill, heavily loaded, high altitude, or all of it.

Also he could change the closed loop to a bit richer target which will also cool the radiated heat.

Bob

[SERK3]

Since this is about Trikes & Exhaust a friend of mine just bought a new Trike & like the most of us hated the sound of stock mufflers, So gave him a set of V&H Classic Sip-Ons.

Question: If he keeps the stock pipes but removes the Cat & uses a K&N Air Filter with the V&H mufflers will he have to re map??

[SteveFLHTK]

 Serk3, yes.

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

John,
Consider this:
By loading the stage 1 TTS calibration it will for sure add fuel to open loop areas which helps cool combustion temps under high loading such as bucking headwind, uphill, heavily loaded, high altitude, or all of it.

Also he could change the closed loop to a bit richer target which will also cool the radiated heat.

Bob

Your making an assumption on the map the OP would load. Many of the maps I looked at for my 124" had spark tables that were advanced to the point the added fuel trim would still cause spark. Additionally each engine runs differently no matter if they have the same build components. This is a known fact. Add in the added weight the OP is hauling becasue its a trike as I stated before, this will change all the variables that would apply to a 2 wheel lighter bike.

Adding fuel without looking at the whole setup and not monitoring the system to see how the engine will respond before taking a long trip without a tune, is like being blind folded spun in a circle and than trying to hit the side of a barn. Some will get lucky, others wont

[FLTRI]

No assumptions. I made my recommendation based on HIS bike and build...which is a stock 103 trike.
A DTA or DTQ cal should work very well...one prolly better than the other.
Definitely worth the download, IME,
Bob

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

John,
Consider this:
By loading the stage 1 TTS calibration it will for sure add fuel to open loop areas which helps cool combustion temps under high loading such as bucking headwind, uphill, heavily loaded, high altitude, or all of it.

Also he could change the closed loop to a bit richer target which will also cool the radiated heat.

Bob

Looks like a pretty generic recommendation to me.  

Regardless of the trike having a stock 103 engine, you dont seem to take in parasitic power loss due to this being a trike. There is at least a 10% loss on overall power that would show on a dyno with a trike that has the same size size engine as a 2 wheel bike. Additionally the trike has a exhtended exhaust that is going to flow slightly less due to the additional bends that add a restriction to drop it below the rear axle .

  Fuel and spark requirements under load based on how much air in and how much air out will alter the VE characteristics of how each engine performs.  

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Bob, I recommend a stock tune for now, based upon his inexperience with TTS.  Once he comes back home, then we can teach him.

[SteveFLHTK]

I do have some experience with the TTS, just not with VTune.  I've looked at all the tables, played with some.  I do like the idea of changing the sensor bias table slightly to enrichen closed loop areas.

[FLTRI]

Looks like a pretty generic recommendation to me.  

Yes, generic calibration for a generic build

...you dont seem to take in parasitic power loss due to this being a trike. There is at least a 10% loss on overall power that would show on a dyno with a trike that has the same size size engine as a 2 wheel bike. Additionally the trike has a exhtended exhaust that is going to flow slightly less due to the additional bends that add a restriction to drop it below the rear axle .

  Fuel and spark requirements under load based on how much air in and how much air out will alter the VE characteristics of how each engine performs.  

I am assuming this is a newer trike and lambda calibration. If that is the case there should be no difference for a trike or a RK. FUELING IS BASED ON LOAD.
I have yet to see a "special" calibration from HD for trikes, so the calibration in his trike is the same as the one in a RK, RG, CLASSIC, or ULTRA.
By enrichening the closed loop it will definitely help to keep combustion temps down which, in turn, will help with radiated heat.
No downside to preloading a TTS calibration for the build.
As far as the exhaust is concerned...if anything the additional restriction will enrichen the fueling so win, win.
Addressing the 3 wheeler vs 2 wheeler...the ECM don't care and if it don't care neither do I.

Hope this address your comments?
Bob

[SteveFLHTK]

I am absolutely not a Dyno expert, but honestly, I can't see how a tune done on a Dyno would differ between a Trike or any other bike.  The Dyno isn't gonna see the increased wind resistance, nor would the increase in weight cause that much of a difference once the wheels are turning. 

BTW, this is a 2013, so absolutely Lambda based.

[FLTRI]

I am absolutely not a Dyno expert, but honestly, I can't see how a tune done on a Dyno would differ between a Trike or any other bike.  The Dyno isn't gonna see the increased wind resistance, nor would the increase in weight cause that much of a difference once the wheels are turning. 

BTW, this is a 2013, so absolutely Lambda based.

Since its lambda based fueling is directly affected by load so the tune will naturally compensate for weight, load, wind, number of wheels, etc.
Bob
PS- That's not to say altering the closed loop table, ignition heat compensation table, accel and decel tables, etc wouldn't help to make for a better running bike...but what we have in the bike right now is for sure too hot and lean and a TTS stage 1 calibration would for sure help.
Just my opinion,
Bob

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Yes, generic calibration for a generic buildI am assuming this is a newer trike and lambda calibration. If that is the case there should be no difference for a trike or a RK. FUELING IS BASED ON LOAD.
I have yet to see a "special" calibration from HD for trikes, so the calibration in his trike is the same as the one in a RK, RG, CLASSIC, or ULTRA.
By enrichening the closed loop it will definitely help to keep combustion temps down which, in turn, will help with radiated heat.
No downside to preloading a TTS calibration for the build.
As far as the exhaust is concerned...if anything the additional restriction will enrichen the fueling so win, win.
Addressing the 3 wheeler vs 2 wheeler...the ECM don't care and if it don't care neither do I.

Hope this address your comments?
Bob

I still disagree on the fundamental fact that a trike requires different tune compared to a 2 wheel bike . Until you have ridden a trike and seen how much hotter the engine runs because of the load ( weight and wind ) along with the restriction with the added 90 degrees of bend in the exhaust system you will see it requires more tuning to address the parasitic power loss a stock engine has in a trike due to the added rotational mass of the rear end, the power train has to turn.

The reason there isnt a specific tune for a trike is most likely one hasnt been submitted to Steve for review to add to the list. Also if you do a search for a shop with a dyno for a trike there are only a few scattered across the country. And Im sure we can lower the number for both experience with TTS and experience in doing the tune correctly. So it really becomes a very limited number of shops that can be used    

The 103 engine is lacking for power to start in a trike. Add the higher static compression the 255 cams create, along with hot starts and kick backs at times and it become evident that the 103 needs a slightly different tune to get any kind of performance and cooler running engine.

I know what the OP is about to experience riding to Sturgis. I had a 103 with the 255 cams in my trike to start and rode it out west several times.  

[SteveFLHTK]

Why 255 cam?  According to everything I can find, the Trike has the same cam as the normal touring bikes.

[TheBobs]

Why 255 cam?  According to everything I can find, the Trike has the same cam as the normal touring bikes.

Triglide has the stock cam, same as Ultra Limited.

[FLTRI]

I still disagree on the fundamental fact that a trike requires different tune compared to a 2 wheel bike . Until you have ridden a trike and seen how much hotter the engine runs because of the load ( weight and wind ) along with the restriction with the added 90 degrees of bend in the exhaust system you will see it requires more tuning to address the parasitic power loss a stock engine has in a trike due to the added rotational mass of the rear end, the power train has to turn.
The 103 engine is lacking for power to start in a trike. Add the higher static compression the 255 cams create, along with hot starts and kick backs at times and it become evident that the 103 needs a slightly different tune to get any kind of performance and cooler running engine.

Fact is, the map currently in his bike is leaner and hotter that the TTS stage 1 calibration.
Is it perfectly tuned for his trike and the conditions? Of course not.
But since it will be richer it will run better and cooler.

Parasitic losses are what they are, are applicable to every vehicle, and have virtually no influence on tune strategy, other than maybe a bit richer open and closed loop...and maybe a little tweek to the timing vs temp tables.
Otherwise we'd have to weigh the rider and if applicable, passenger and baggage to get a good tune.

Exhaust is a bit more restrictive than a normal bagger. So?

Bob

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I do NOT think, nor agree with a trike takes a different base tune, at all.  The tune is about the ENGINE and how the VEs are derived.  Same way, both bikes.  What DOES differ... is AFTER a tune, a trike will have a different cruise area and more resistance going down the road.  This is nothing more than a map based Lambda bike using more map to go the same speed.  Fueling should NOT be different at all.

And to those that think fuel equals a cooler engine, in and by itself?  You actually are mistaken.  A whole AFR point will lower temps about 5*F.  What REALLY lowers temps, is a full on tune that makes the timing match the load, and this MAY differ from its two wheel cousin, but again... that is not about the base map, that is about tuning the bike.

Base maps are NOT finish maps... as we all know we should tune to the bike in question.  So, even on a 2 wheeler, we alter timing, etc to match the bike itself.

Can you, 2008, name ONE setting that should be thought of as different on a trike -vs- a bike?  In a base map?

I would gladly street tune a trike, and I would start off with the same base map as a bike, as far as engine config, etc.

I feel you are confusing the end tune with a base map, and they are not even close on a whole lotta bikes.  TTS is NOT about the same stuff PV is.  TTS is about giving you enough tools to truly bring a bike/trike into a great tune.  PV etc, have slightly limited capacity on tru base maps, and instead release their base maps as truly running maps.  But... things get missed with that approach, IMHO.  Remember, a true base map includes every function it takes to start and run a bike.  ALL of the 100+ hidden settings are adjusted towards the true base map's config.  SEPST kind of does this and TTS does this.  PV, OTOH, take the tune from the bike, alters the tables and shoots it back in.  Everthing that PV can adjust, is adjusted...  but how about those 100+ hidden settings?  Nope.  A PV tune can NOT be shot into a blank ECM and expected to run, unlike a SEPST map or a TTS map, both of which CAN be used on a blank ECM.

I mention the above, because folks that have an idea about PCs and PVs mistake their running maps with a SEPST and TTS BASE map.  Two different things, my friend.  A base map sets the hidden setting for the engine config and goes far enough to have the adjustable tables close.  It is up to the tuner after that to bring these things home.  PVs and PCs generic base maps can be run as is, or with a PV, fine tuned to a degree.  BIG difference Amigo.

[Steve Cole]

Not having the time to get into this but the Quick answer is that from HD the trike comes with the exact same calibration as do the the Ultra's! I've gotten base calibrations from 2010 - 2013 and they are the same in both models.

[FLTRI]

There sure are a lot of folks who swear the radiant heat off the cylinders on fairing bikes with lowers is less @ 13.5 AFR than 14.6 AFR.
We are ONLY talking about the heat the rider feels while riding down the road.
Bob

[TheBobs]

I have a 2012 Triglide with SE A/C, a 2-1-2 aftermarket headpipe, stock mufflers and a DTA-044 tune.  No VEs over 8% (the majority less than 5%) after the first V-Tune run.  The DTA-044 was pretty damn close.  Timing and engine heat management have been the triglide challenge, VEs were easy.

[FLTRI]

I would guess heat management would be coming in frequently due to lack of adequate air movement
Have you seen/tried the HD parade fan? There is also at least one other company selling cooling fan systems.
Everything I've heard is all about engine heat management. I've heard up to 475 cyl head running temp!
Are you adjusting the timing vs temp table or the main timing tables?
Bob

[TheBobs]

I'm running the Wards FCS with thermo switch and Jagg w/ fan assist.  I also found the DTQ-044 timing tables more friendly in the cruise range at moderate loads at around 3,000 rpm.  I don't see over 230 deg oil temps any more. 

[FLTRI]

I'm running the Wards FCS with thermo switch and Jagg w/ fan assist.  I also found the DTQ-044 timing tables more friendly in the cruise range at moderate loads at around 3,000 rpm.  I don't see over 230 deg oil temps any more. 

Bob

[Hilly13]

Not having the time to get into this but the Quick answer is that from HD the trike comes with the exact same calibration as do the the Ultra's! I've gotten base calibrations from 2010 - 2013 and they are the same in both models.

Good to know, clears this up, at least for me, thanks Steve.

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

I do NOT think, nor agree with a trike takes a different base tune, at all.  The tune is about the ENGINE and how the VEs are derived.  Same way, both bikes.  What DOES differ... is AFTER a tune, a trike will have a different cruise area and more resistance going down the road.  This is nothing more than a map based Lambda bike using more map to go the same speed.  Fueling should NOT be different at all.

And to those that think fuel equals a cooler engine, in and by itself?  You actually are mistaken.  A whole AFR point will lower temps about 5*F.  What REALLY lowers temps, is a full on tune that makes the timing match the load, and this MAY differ from its two wheel cousin, but again... that is not about the base map, that is about tuning the bike.

Base maps are NOT finish maps... as we all know we should tune to the bike in question.  So, even on a 2 wheeler, we alter timing, etc to match the bike itself.

Can you, 2008, name ONE setting that should be thought of as different on a trike -vs- a bike?  In a base map?

I would gladly street tune a trike, and I would start off with the same base map as a bike, as far as engine config, etc.

I feel you are confusing the end tune with a base map, and they are not even close on a whole lotta bikes.  TTS is NOT about the same stuff PV is.  TTS is about giving you enough tools to truly bring a bike/trike into a great tune.  PV etc, have slightly limited capacity on tru base maps, and instead release their base maps as truly running maps.  But... things get missed with that approach, IMHO.  Remember, a true base map includes every function it takes to start and run a bike.  ALL of the 100+ hidden settings are adjusted towards the true base map's config.  SEPST kind of does this and TTS does this.  PV, OTOH, take the tune from the bike, alters the tables and shoots it back in.  Everthing that PV can adjust, is adjusted...  but how about those 100+ hidden settings?  Nope.  A PV tune can NOT be shot into a blank ECM and expected to run, unlike a SEPST map or a TTS map, both of which CAN be used on a blank ECM.

I mention the above, because folks that have an idea about PCs and PVs mistake their running maps with a SEPST and TTS BASE map.  Two different things, my friend.  A base map sets the hidden setting for the engine config and goes far enough to have the adjustable tables close.  It is up to the tuner after that to bring these things home.  PVs and PCs generic base maps can be run as is, or with a PV, fine tuned to a degree.  BIG difference Amigo.

First off I was mistaken on thinking the newer trikes had the 255 cams. I thought I read it was added to increase the power output power of the base 103 to help the triglide.

Second if you read my 1st reply on page 1, I stated the same thing you have just said, the canned map calibration from TTS is a starting point for a tune, not the end all be all map tune to load and forget. So we both agree on this

I also agree that a taking the time to do a full tune either by dyno or self tuning using the TTS or other tuning device is needed as each engine runs different depending the fuel quality and octane the engine will be tuned on. With the added weight and wind load place on the engine in a trike platform time has to be taken in tuning both the fuel and spark tables to improve the VE tables.

 Adding fuel does have increased benefits to make more power to point, so adding fuel in the load areas of the map would be different due to load on the engine. The cruise area of the trike will have a smaller window of maximum fuel economy over the the 2 wheel MC. Can you run a engine in trike with the same maximum fuel economy window in the tune, yes. Will it respond the same as a 2 wheel bike to speed up, No!    

The spark table in most calibrations that I have looked at when I was deciding on to use for my engine builds, are set to maximize power output for 2 wheel bikes using high test fuel. The problem is if the spark table in the calibration are set for all out power for a 2 wheel bike the heat & detonation issue becomes worse for the engine in a trike. Why, the trike is heavier and has more wind resistance.

If anyone has driven a vehicle and towed enough added weight you may have experienced detonation ( pinging ) and loss of performance and power. Why, the ecm map can only make enough adjustment as allow by the parameters set by the map the ecm is calibrated to. The TTS has the function to retard the timing which in effect is reducing the the timing set in the map. This retarding occurs under load when the engine demands for more power exceed the loaded map calibrations and it detects the detonation or ping. Add in a restrictive air filter and exhaust and the issues become worse for the power loss and overall responsiveness of the engine. The engine needs to breath in and out.


This has been the basis of my disagreement that the tune for a trike will require more adjustments to the tune in both fuel and spark over the tune for a 2 wheel MC with the same size engine.

 
  

[TheBobs]

What I've observed (Datamaster runs at/above 100*) is that the ECM removes timing w/ temp correction from the heart of our Triglides' cruising area, plus some spark retard event related timing removal, again at moderate load cruise. 
Question:  When this happens isn't it causing heat by removing timing, which causes more heat, which causes more timing removal, and so on? 
It feels like it totally falls on its face.  But go for a morning ride and it runs like a striped cat!  This situation has been a head scratcher for me.  I eventually treated the cause instead of the symptom.  Now running Wards FCS and Jagg w/fan assist, so heat no longer reaches levels where it starts the process above.  Used datamaster to check/prove my theory.   TG is a much happier machine now.  I don't know if my thought process is right or way off base, but it runs as good at 100* as it does at 65*, which is pretty much every day to and from work.  I wished I could get a (non-HD shop) dyno tune to include timing, but haven't been able to find one.

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

What I've observed (Datamaster runs at/above 100*) is that the ECM removes timing w/ temp correction from the heart of our Triglides' cruising area, plus some spark retard event related timing removal, again at moderate load cruise.  
Question:  When this happens isn't it causing heat by removing timing, which causes more heat, which causes more timing removal, and so on?  
It feels like it totally falls on its face.  But go for a morning ride and it runs like a striped cat!  This situation has been a head scratcher for me.  I eventually treated the cause instead of the symptom.  Now running Wards FCS and Jagg w/fan assist, so heat no longer reaches levels where it starts the process above.  Used datamaster to check/prove my theory.   TG is a much happier machine now.  I don't know if my thought process is right or way off base, but it runs as good at 100* as it does at 65*, which is pretty much every day to and from work.  I wished I could get a (non-HD shop) dyno tune to include timing, but haven't been able to find one.

Fuel quality, the temperature of the fuel itself and air temp & density play a major factor on how well your engine will run. So what your seeing with the power is correct. If your seeing timing removal than the system is detecting detonation and removes the timing to remove the detonation.  

Depending on the source of fuel you use you could be getting some gas that isnt as fresh and could have been sitting the station tank for some time. Or its has some moisture contamination in it.

The gas pump you get your fuel from uses the same hose for all grades of gas. So you get a certain amount of lower octane gas that is mixed in with your fuel as you dispense into the tank.

Adding air flow over the engine with the Wards Fans helps lower the temp of the outside of the engine which helps lower the internal temps. The oil cooler is another way to also help keep the engine temps lower.

High octane fuel allows the timing to be advanced due to its resistance to detonation, which in turns allows the tune to make more power. But it has its limits as well.

One thing I have seen that really surprised me was that the fuel tank that hauls fuel to the station. The inside of these tanks are dirty. The tank can haul gas one time and the next it could be hauling diesel fuel. The stations are suppose to have filters on the pumps but how often do they replace them??   

[FLTRI]

What I've observed (Datamaster runs at/above 100*) is that the ECM removes timing w/ temp correction from the heart of our Triglides' cruising area, plus some spark retard event related timing removal, again at moderate load cruise.  
Question:  When this happens isn't it causing heat by removing timing, which causes more heat, which causes more timing removal, and so on?  
It feels like it totally falls on its face.  But go for a morning ride and it runs like a striped cat!  This situation has been a head scratcher for me.  I eventually treated the cause instead of the symptom.  Now running Wards FCS and Jagg w/fan assist, so heat no longer reaches levels where it starts the process above.  Used datamaster to check/prove my theory.   TG is a much happier machine now.  I don't know if my thought process is right or way off base, but it runs as good at 100* as it does at 65*, which is pretty much every day to and from work.  I wished I could get a (non-HD shop) dyno tune to include timing, but haven't been able to find one.

You are right on the money with your observation, and approach to eliminate it.

If you don't like the system pulling timing to prevent high heat detonation (temp vs timing table)...cool it down!

Now if the other trike guys follow your lead they too will be happy.

In fact, if you would like, post or send me the calibration and I might be able make some subtle changes (unless already addressed) to further help radiated heat.

Bob

[Buckeye_Tuning]

First off I was mistaken on thinking the newer trikes had the 255 cams. I thought I read it was added to increase the power output power of the base 103 to help the triglide.

Second if you read my 1st reply on page 1, I stated the same thing you have just said, the canned map calibration from TTS is a starting point for a tune, not the end all be all map tune to load and forget. So we both agree on this

I also agree that a taking the time to do a full tune either by dyno or self tuning using the TTS or other tuning device is needed as each engine runs different depending the fuel quality and octane the engine will be tuned on. With the added weight and wind load place on the engine in a trike platform time has to be taken in tuning both the fuel and spark tables to improve the VE tables.

 Adding fuel does have increased benefits to make more power to point, so adding fuel in the load areas of the map would be different due to load on the engine. The cruise area of the trike will have a smaller window of maximum fuel economy over the the 2 wheel MC. Can you run a engine in trike with the same maximum fuel economy window in the tune, yes. Will it respond the same as a 2 wheel bike to speed up, No!    

The spark table in most calibrations that I have looked at when I was deciding on to use for my engine builds, are set to maximize power output for 2 wheel bikes using high test fuel. The problem is if the spark table in the calibration are set for all out power for a 2 wheel bike the heat & detonation issue becomes worse for the engine in a trike. Why, the trike is heavier and has more wind resistance.

If anyone has driven a vehicle and towed enough added weight you may have experienced detonation ( pinging ) and loss of performance and power. Why, the ecm map can only make enough adjustment as allow by the parameters set by the map the ecm is calibrated to. The TTS has the function to retard the timing which in effect is reducing the the timing set in the map. This retarding occurs under load when the engine demands for more power exceed the loaded map calibrations and it detects the detonation or ping. Add in a restrictive air filter and exhaust and the issues become worse for the power loss and overall responsiveness of the engine. The engine needs to breath in and out.


This has been the basis of my disagreement that the tune for a trike will require more adjustments to the tune in both fuel and spark over the tune for a 2 wheel MC with the same size engine.

 
  

You're not 'getting it.  The base tune will remain the same for both bike and trike.  What YOU are talking about is tuning... and your argument is different base maps are needed, and that is NOT the case.  Both timing and fuel get maximized by TUNING each calibration.  I don't know what you know, or how you think... but making a TUNE from a base cal involves changing timing along with fuel.  Doesn't matter much what timing is in the base cal, you or the tuner should alter those tables for the best running bike/trike.

A TTS base cal, I will say this again... is a STARTING point and no where near the end point.  No two trikes will be exactly the same, as no two bikes are.  TUNING finalizes things.

Also, I don't know who has tuned YOUR stuff, but we who use TTS adjust each and every setting to maximize performance and .... a trike will get the SAME amount of effort as a bike will.  Does NOT take 'more' and is NOT harder to do either.

To the bobs...  do you self tune using Vtune?  You can alter your timing if you already know how to gather data using VTune.  You ARE correct on how a bike gets too damn hot real quick.  It STARTS with the timing being simply too retarded in the base map.  This is why the TTS tuning guide tells how to adjust timing.  I have fixed EXACTLY what you are saying by advancing the timing and possibly clipping the tops off of the temp timing table.  The idea is to keep it as advanced as safely possible... like 4* from actual pinging.

One thing to try is look at YOUR timing tables.  Go one calibration up and look at those timing tables.  As motor parameters change, so do the base cals.  One can copy from a different and more advanced timing table and paste that into a calibration.  This works especially well when your bike's configuration kind of sets between cals.

I had a bike roll thru here with a 117 w/ported heads... and a 555 woods.  Talk about a mis-match.  Instead of taking the cal that seemed to all fit the , the pipes, the heads, etc....., I chose the cal that matched the cams and swapped in that more advanced timing tables.  Worked great, as the bike was stupid hot with the smaller timing for sure.  Surely didn't ping with that retarded of timing but it sure made some serious heat FAST.  Funny thing is... everyone says ported heads do not need as much timing, but this bike proved that rule, I guess.... the cams took NO advantage of whatever head work was done.

Back to 2008trike... these kinds of measures are needed for BIKES, and they are also needed for Trikes, too.  Base cals are just a starting point.  I have a dyno, but cannot do a trike...  but what some of us CAN do is use an onboard monitor, while vtuning, to gather the same info.  It would take me a few days, but it would be about equal to a dynoed bike (I WOULD sniff it along the way for the 80-100kpa regions.  I think Bob, here, does this.  So does Hrdtail78, IIRC.  If anyone were to need a trike tune, Jason is in St Louis, and Bob is in CALI.  Finding a trike dyno WITH A BRAKE is hard to do.

For any trike guys who wish to DIYer it, go to HDF's ECM section and get a hold of The WIzzard or Wurk Truk.

[SteveFLHTK]

Well, per the suggestion of Steve Cole, I went ahead and installed the Stage 1 Air Kit and the canned map for same on the Trike.  Trike runs much better.  Doesn't lose speed so easily on the hills, actually has a bit of pep in 6th gear.  The only issue I have is the same issue I had for a couple tanks before doing this.  Fuel mileage is terrible.  Harley says 38mpg, I know that's a pipe dream, but I'd hoped for 30.  I'm getting about 25 over 600 miles now. Is a VTune gonna help this down the road?  I know mileage will go up a couple as it gets broke in, but this is a lot worse than I expected.  Any input appreciated.

[FLTRI]

Well, per the suggestion of Steve Cole, I went ahead and installed the Stage 1 Air Kit and the canned map for same on the Trike.  Trike runs much better.  Doesn't lose speed so easily on the hills, actually has a bit of pep in 6th gear.  The only issue I have is the same issue I had for a couple tanks before doing this.  Fuel mileage is terrible.  Harley says 38mpg, I know that's a pipe dream, but I'd hoped for 30.  I'm getting about 25 over 600 miles now. Is a VTune gonna help this down the road?  I know mileage will go up a couple as it gets broke in, but this is a lot worse than I expected.  Any input appreciated.

Lean and hot on the legs or rich and cooler on the legs. Your choice.
I'm sure there are a couple more mpg's after a couple vtunes but you have the same engine in your trike (1150lbs+)as in a Dyna (650lbs+) .
Simply put...these bikes need Big Blocks!
Bob

[Mr. Wizard]

Well, per the suggestion of Steve Cole, I went ahead and installed the Stage 1 Air Kit and the canned map for same on the Trike.  Trike runs much better.  Doesn't lose speed so easily on the hills, actually has a bit of pep in 6th gear.  The only issue I have is the same issue I had for a couple tanks before doing this.  Fuel mileage is terrible.  Harley says 38mpg, I know that's a pipe dream, but I'd hoped for 30.  I'm getting about 25 over 600 miles now. Is a VTune gonna help this down the road?  I know mileage will go up a couple as it gets broke in, but this is a lot worse than I expected.  Any input appreciated.

Cough... uhhhhh, that's Wizard with only one Z 

Let's all sing... "I'm off to see the Wizard, the wonderful Wizard of OZ"..  You're welcome, you'll be humming that tune all day now.


OK, OK... I'll type this in bold.  TRIKES ARE DIFFERENT

Where they are not different is they will use the same base cal as any other 103 Touring bike. There are over 200 (says old man Cole) data points in the calibration that we can't see or touch and all these are set by Steve. They aren't for a two wheeler or a trike they are for the model, year of the bike and motor size as well as any larger modified combination he can thing of.

Why are trikes different? Beside the use of the same TTS module and the same base cal the main difference is, they have three wheels and two huge fenders in the rear. This causes an aerodynamic bubble at the riders location soooo, the rider feels more heat so he is more sensitive to it... PERIOD <--  I like saying that, no offense..

Toss in his leg position on a trike along with the additional weight and the additional storage in the truck where Momma puts everything but the kitchen sink and you have your main differences why a trike will have different VE's and timing. Lambda or AFR (with Bias), Warm up tables, Throttle Control, yadda, yadda are all the same. You may find a little difference in the AE, you may find a little difference in the PE Spark, heck, even the EGR will come into play differently on a trike but it all comes down to one simple little fact.... use the right base cal for the right motor. Grab your IVO (and IVC if you can) go get those VE's done. After that setting the timing is where you want to go. FLTR2008Trike isn't wrong, you guys are saying similar things in different ways. He just knows how the tuning will react with all that weight. Just got to trust me on this one. I do think he has built way too many big motors and completely forgot about all his trike buddies slamming in all those removed CVO 255 cams though (Sorry Tom, couldn't resist)

I've offered Cole all the TG calibrations he could stack to his ceiling. Doesn't matter... it comes from the same base cal as a two wheeler.

If you compare a TG with stage 1 to an Ultra with Stage 1... all the mentioned above is different.


btw... Steve... Haven't seen "the Bobs" around for a while, maybe just me but it's good to hear you kick'n.... take a datamaster run with your fans on... check your intake air temp. Do the same run with your oil cooler fan off. Watch the temps drop about 50*F if you are still using the football cover. The Wards won't create such an increase in intake air temp but they too run the intake temp up. Remove that football cover and get more data with fans off/fans on...


To SteveFLHTK... Until you get rid of that cat and get Steve George's X pipe on there your MPG will Suck, excuse me language. No need to find 6th gear for anything unless you are on the hwy going down hill and in a hurry. Stay in 5th, you will get better MPG. Once you flash your ECM you will start Adaptive Values all over again. If you watch and do your math you will find it takes a few three or four tanks and many key on/key off turns for the ECM to write enough adaptations to help your MPG. For the heat, forget it... you will roast until you toss the cat. Many well wishes to you, the old TTS guys here and here from other forums for one reason or another will not do you wrong. Lean on them and learn. Soon you will be very happy man. Even happier when you toss those stock smog cams.



Wiz out... you guys have fun!

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Ummmm...  I WILL be blaming that on my crappy keyboard, Dave!

[SteveFLHTK]

Ok, I have replaced the air cleaner, put on the X-pipe (kept the stock mufflers for the moment).  I've done a couple VTune runs with corrections each time.  Hope I'm doing it right, no idea, as I've never done it before.  After 2 VTune runs, I rode tonight with my wife on the back, had a couple backfires (3 in about 75 miles).  Plan on doing a couple more VTunes tomorrow in hopes of getting it a bit closer.  Seems to be running better, and mileage seems to be on the rise.

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Ok, I have replaced the air cleaner, put on the X-pipe (kept the stock mufflers for the moment).  I've done a couple VTune runs with corrections each time.  Hope I'm doing it right, no idea, as I've never done it before.  After 2 VTune runs, I rode tonight with my wife on the back, had a couple backfires (3 in about 75 miles).  Plan on doing a couple more VTunes tomorrow in hopes of getting it a bit closer.  Seems to be running better, and mileage seems to be on the rise.

When you installed the X pipe did you use new exhaust gaskets that go in the heads? Also, I would check the exhaust connections at the head and mufflers to ensure they are tight and not leaking. The stock mufflers are fairly restricted and I wouldnt think they would allow much reversion to cause the backfiring.

[SteveFLHTK]

Yes, I used new gaskets, I also made sure they were tight and not leaking, and in fact, had a dealership finish as I was close to heat exhaustion before I got it done.

[SteveFLHTK]

Ok, decided to start a new thread about this.  I have a new Tri-Glide that I am trying to tune.  I have an Arlen Ness Big Sucker Air kit, Fullsac X-Pipe B with adapter, and stock mufflers.  I've done 4 VTune runs now, adjusting the tune a bit each time.  I haven't yet messed with any timing things as I want to make sure I get the AFR right first.  Is there someone out there chit hot with the Mastertune that would be willing to look at my files and see if I am doing this anywhere near correctly?

[Fired00d]

Ok, decided to start a new thread about this.  I have a new Tri-Glide that I am trying to tune.  I have an Arlen Ness Big Sucker Air kit, Fullsac X-Pipe B with adapter, and stock mufflers.  I've done 4 VTune runs now, adjusting the tune a bit each time.  I haven't yet messed with any timing things as I want to make sure I get the AFR right first.  Is there someone out there chit hot with the Mastertune that would be willing to look at my files and see if I am doing this anywhere near correctly?

No need to start a new thread looking for the same assistance... they have been merged.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[SteveFLHTK]

Okee Dokee, no prob.  Just figured it was enough different to be a separate topic  ;-)

[North Georgia Hawg]

Ok, decided to start a new thread about this.  I have a new Tri-Glide that I am trying to tune.  I have an Arlen Ness Big Sucker Air kit, Fullsac X-Pipe B with adapter, and stock mufflers.  I've done 4 VTune runs now, adjusting the tune a bit each time.  I haven't yet messed with any timing things as I want to make sure I get the AFR right first.  Is there someone out there chit hot with the Mastertune that would be willing to look at my files and see if I am doing this anywhere near correctly?

I would contact Mr. Wizard here. He has a '12 Tri Glide and is truly a TTS Wizard. He has tuned dozens and dozens of bikes using the TTS... including mine.

Ken

[TheBobs]

+1 on Wiz.  He can help a lot.  He got me started, patiently answered a ton of newbie questions, and helped me with my 2010 TG and how to tune in the SE-255 in the heat with 91 octane California gas  

Wiz, I think you're on to something about the football.  I've seen the creeping/high IAT and worried that it could be a side-effect from the two fan systems when at slow speeds.  Once it's heatsoaked, it doesn't like dropping back down.  I'll make some comparison ScanData runs with and without the football.  It's gonna be 101 deg when I get off work today 

[SteveFLHTK]

PM sent to Mr Wizard.

[FLTRI]

Ok, decided to start a new thread about this.  I have a new Tri-Glide that I am trying to tune.  I have an Arlen Ness Big Sucker Air kit, Fullsac X-Pipe B with adapter, and stock mufflers.  I've done 4 VTune runs now, adjusting the tune a bit each time.  I haven't yet messed with any timing things as I want to make sure I get the AFR right first.  Is there someone out there chit hot with the Mastertune that would be willing to look at my files and see if I am doing this anywhere near correctly?

Do you have any comments as to the run-quality as of now?
Throttle response throughout the rpms?
Steady-state smooth cruise?
Fuel mileage?
Minimal decel backfiring?
Without a way to sample actual exhaust output run-quality is a good way to determine tune quality.

Bob

[SteveFLHTK]

Throttle response is good. Fuel mileage is up a bit. No decel backfire as of yet since the latest tune.

[FLTRI]

Throttle response is good. Fuel mileage is up a bit. No decel backfire as of yet since the latest tune.

Hopefully others with trikes will also benefit from this thread!
Bob

[SteveFLHTK]

I spent several hours on the phone with Dr Wizard last night and utilized some of what I remembered today to get my tune just a bit better.  I think one more run and I am done, but I am convinced that the VE tables are about as good as they can get before Flight Recorder comes out.  After some explanation of what's coming, I'll wait for that release to do any timing changes.

Funny...I have a lot of people that come to me for tuning advice.  Quite a few have gone with the Mastertune, at my suggestion, and then learned to VTune themselves with a lot of trial and tribulations.....I've never VTUned before, and I learned more last night than I ever thought I'd know about the Mastertune and associated stuff.

[FLTRI]

I spent several hours on the phone with Dr Wizard last night and utilized some of what I remembered today to get my tune just a bit better.  I think one more run and I am done, but I am convinced that the VE tables are about as good as they can get before Flight Recorder comes out.  After some explanation of what's coming, I'll wait for that release to do any timing changes.

Funny...I have a lot of people that come to me for tuning advice.  Quite a few have gone with the Mastertune, at my suggestion, and then learned to VTune themselves with a lot of trial and tribulations.....I've never VTUned before, and I learned more last night than I ever thought I'd know about the Mastertune and associated stuff.

...and it will never be a plug and play deal because of the unlimited parts combos available with a plethora of design variances.
Bob

[North Georgia Hawg]

...and it will never be a plug and play deal because of the unlimited parts combos available with a plethora of design variances.
Bob

And that's why VTune exists... to get the VEs - and soon other things like timing, EGR, etc. - dialed in properly for each particular bike.

Two bikes with identical equipment will need slightly different VE tables and other settings, due to manufacturing tolerances across all of different parts in the engine. No two bikes breathe exactly the same. Canned maps are great starting points for tuning - but they will never be spot on for any particular bike, except the bike they were built on.

Wiz has quite patiently "put up" with me as I have changed cams, pipes, air cleaners, head gaskets, cam plates/oil pumps, lifters, rockers, etc. in the Honey Badger at different times! Not all of these parts really affect the tune all that much... but cams and pipes sure do! The bike even breathed differently when I went from the stock Ventilator A/C to the Ness Big Sucker Stage 2.

I am looking forward to retuning with the new TTS 3 flight recorder and timing assist. I think my timing is definitely not yet right for my build, and I'm hoping to get more power soon. I may go to 5.3 injectors, and maybe even a 58mm TB, before the retuning. Lets see if Wiz notices I said that...

Ken

[Mr. Wizard]

I may go to 5.3 injectors, and maybe even a 58mm TB, before the retuning. Lets see if Wiz notices I said that...

Ken

I think you should go ahead and pull the pin on that hand grenade bottom end and get what you really want.

[North Georgia Hawg]

I think you should go ahead and pull the pin on that hand grenade bottom end and get what you really want.

LOL! Well, the warranty is done on Aug 26 anyway... so I suppose the bottom end will going to Darkhorse or T-Man this winter anyway. Might as well get the heads done at that point, too... and forged hi-comp pistons... and injectors... and TB... and etc...

Or maybe just say SCREW IT and get an S&S 124 for next season!

Ken

[FLTRI]

LOL! Well, the warranty is done on Aug 26 anyway... so I suppose the bottom end will going to Darkhorse or T-Man this winter anyway. Might as well get the heads done at that point, too... and forged hi-comp pistons... and injectors... and TB... and etc...

Or maybe just say SCREW IT and get an S&S 124 for next season!

Ken

I'm thinking the bigger the engine and more efficient down low...the less radiated heat?
Bob

[TheBobs]

btw... Steve... Haven't seen "the Bobs" around for a while, maybe just me but it's good to hear you kick'n.... take a datamaster run with your fans on... check your intake air temp. Do the same run with your oil cooler fan off. Watch the temps drop about 50*F if you are still using the football cover. The Wards won't create such an increase in intake air temp but they too run the intake temp up. Remove that football cover and get more data with fans off/fans on...

Wiz, I got a round cover and it did help.  I also am trying to only run the Jagg Fan only 25 mph or less.