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[TheBobs]

I'm running the Wards FCS with thermo switch and Jagg w/ fan assist.  I also found the DTQ-044 timing tables more friendly in the cruise range at moderate loads at around 3,000 rpm.  I don't see over 230 deg oil temps any more. 

[FLTRI]

I'm running the Wards FCS with thermo switch and Jagg w/ fan assist.  I also found the DTQ-044 timing tables more friendly in the cruise range at moderate loads at around 3,000 rpm.  I don't see over 230 deg oil temps any more. 

Bob

[Hilly13]

Not having the time to get into this but the Quick answer is that from HD the trike comes with the exact same calibration as do the the Ultra's! I've gotten base calibrations from 2010 - 2013 and they are the same in both models.

Good to know, clears this up, at least for me, thanks Steve.

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

I do NOT think, nor agree with a trike takes a different base tune, at all.  The tune is about the ENGINE and how the VEs are derived.  Same way, both bikes.  What DOES differ... is AFTER a tune, a trike will have a different cruise area and more resistance going down the road.  This is nothing more than a map based Lambda bike using more map to go the same speed.  Fueling should NOT be different at all.

And to those that think fuel equals a cooler engine, in and by itself?  You actually are mistaken.  A whole AFR point will lower temps about 5*F.  What REALLY lowers temps, is a full on tune that makes the timing match the load, and this MAY differ from its two wheel cousin, but again... that is not about the base map, that is about tuning the bike.

Base maps are NOT finish maps... as we all know we should tune to the bike in question.  So, even on a 2 wheeler, we alter timing, etc to match the bike itself.

Can you, 2008, name ONE setting that should be thought of as different on a trike -vs- a bike?  In a base map?

I would gladly street tune a trike, and I would start off with the same base map as a bike, as far as engine config, etc.

I feel you are confusing the end tune with a base map, and they are not even close on a whole lotta bikes.  TTS is NOT about the same stuff PV is.  TTS is about giving you enough tools to truly bring a bike/trike into a great tune.  PV etc, have slightly limited capacity on tru base maps, and instead release their base maps as truly running maps.  But... things get missed with that approach, IMHO.  Remember, a true base map includes every function it takes to start and run a bike.  ALL of the 100+ hidden settings are adjusted towards the true base map's config.  SEPST kind of does this and TTS does this.  PV, OTOH, take the tune from the bike, alters the tables and shoots it back in.  Everthing that PV can adjust, is adjusted...  but how about those 100+ hidden settings?  Nope.  A PV tune can NOT be shot into a blank ECM and expected to run, unlike a SEPST map or a TTS map, both of which CAN be used on a blank ECM.

I mention the above, because folks that have an idea about PCs and PVs mistake their running maps with a SEPST and TTS BASE map.  Two different things, my friend.  A base map sets the hidden setting for the engine config and goes far enough to have the adjustable tables close.  It is up to the tuner after that to bring these things home.  PVs and PCs generic base maps can be run as is, or with a PV, fine tuned to a degree.  BIG difference Amigo.

First off I was mistaken on thinking the newer trikes had the 255 cams. I thought I read it was added to increase the power output power of the base 103 to help the triglide.

Second if you read my 1st reply on page 1, I stated the same thing you have just said, the canned map calibration from TTS is a starting point for a tune, not the end all be all map tune to load and forget. So we both agree on this

I also agree that a taking the time to do a full tune either by dyno or self tuning using the TTS or other tuning device is needed as each engine runs different depending the fuel quality and octane the engine will be tuned on. With the added weight and wind load place on the engine in a trike platform time has to be taken in tuning both the fuel and spark tables to improve the VE tables.

 Adding fuel does have increased benefits to make more power to point, so adding fuel in the load areas of the map would be different due to load on the engine. The cruise area of the trike will have a smaller window of maximum fuel economy over the the 2 wheel MC. Can you run a engine in trike with the same maximum fuel economy window in the tune, yes. Will it respond the same as a 2 wheel bike to speed up, No!    

The spark table in most calibrations that I have looked at when I was deciding on to use for my engine builds, are set to maximize power output for 2 wheel bikes using high test fuel. The problem is if the spark table in the calibration are set for all out power for a 2 wheel bike the heat & detonation issue becomes worse for the engine in a trike. Why, the trike is heavier and has more wind resistance.

If anyone has driven a vehicle and towed enough added weight you may have experienced detonation ( pinging ) and loss of performance and power. Why, the ecm map can only make enough adjustment as allow by the parameters set by the map the ecm is calibrated to. The TTS has the function to retard the timing which in effect is reducing the the timing set in the map. This retarding occurs under load when the engine demands for more power exceed the loaded map calibrations and it detects the detonation or ping. Add in a restrictive air filter and exhaust and the issues become worse for the power loss and overall responsiveness of the engine. The engine needs to breath in and out.


This has been the basis of my disagreement that the tune for a trike will require more adjustments to the tune in both fuel and spark over the tune for a 2 wheel MC with the same size engine.

 
  

[TheBobs]

What I've observed (Datamaster runs at/above 100*) is that the ECM removes timing w/ temp correction from the heart of our Triglides' cruising area, plus some spark retard event related timing removal, again at moderate load cruise. 
Question:  When this happens isn't it causing heat by removing timing, which causes more heat, which causes more timing removal, and so on? 
It feels like it totally falls on its face.  But go for a morning ride and it runs like a striped cat!  This situation has been a head scratcher for me.  I eventually treated the cause instead of the symptom.  Now running Wards FCS and Jagg w/fan assist, so heat no longer reaches levels where it starts the process above.  Used datamaster to check/prove my theory.   TG is a much happier machine now.  I don't know if my thought process is right or way off base, but it runs as good at 100* as it does at 65*, which is pretty much every day to and from work.  I wished I could get a (non-HD shop) dyno tune to include timing, but haven't been able to find one.

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

What I've observed (Datamaster runs at/above 100*) is that the ECM removes timing w/ temp correction from the heart of our Triglides' cruising area, plus some spark retard event related timing removal, again at moderate load cruise.  
Question:  When this happens isn't it causing heat by removing timing, which causes more heat, which causes more timing removal, and so on?  
It feels like it totally falls on its face.  But go for a morning ride and it runs like a striped cat!  This situation has been a head scratcher for me.  I eventually treated the cause instead of the symptom.  Now running Wards FCS and Jagg w/fan assist, so heat no longer reaches levels where it starts the process above.  Used datamaster to check/prove my theory.   TG is a much happier machine now.  I don't know if my thought process is right or way off base, but it runs as good at 100* as it does at 65*, which is pretty much every day to and from work.  I wished I could get a (non-HD shop) dyno tune to include timing, but haven't been able to find one.

Fuel quality, the temperature of the fuel itself and air temp & density play a major factor on how well your engine will run. So what your seeing with the power is correct. If your seeing timing removal than the system is detecting detonation and removes the timing to remove the detonation.  

Depending on the source of fuel you use you could be getting some gas that isnt as fresh and could have been sitting the station tank for some time. Or its has some moisture contamination in it.

The gas pump you get your fuel from uses the same hose for all grades of gas. So you get a certain amount of lower octane gas that is mixed in with your fuel as you dispense into the tank.

Adding air flow over the engine with the Wards Fans helps lower the temp of the outside of the engine which helps lower the internal temps. The oil cooler is another way to also help keep the engine temps lower.

High octane fuel allows the timing to be advanced due to its resistance to detonation, which in turns allows the tune to make more power. But it has its limits as well.

One thing I have seen that really surprised me was that the fuel tank that hauls fuel to the station. The inside of these tanks are dirty. The tank can haul gas one time and the next it could be hauling diesel fuel. The stations are suppose to have filters on the pumps but how often do they replace them??   

[FLTRI]

What I've observed (Datamaster runs at/above 100*) is that the ECM removes timing w/ temp correction from the heart of our Triglides' cruising area, plus some spark retard event related timing removal, again at moderate load cruise.  
Question:  When this happens isn't it causing heat by removing timing, which causes more heat, which causes more timing removal, and so on?  
It feels like it totally falls on its face.  But go for a morning ride and it runs like a striped cat!  This situation has been a head scratcher for me.  I eventually treated the cause instead of the symptom.  Now running Wards FCS and Jagg w/fan assist, so heat no longer reaches levels where it starts the process above.  Used datamaster to check/prove my theory.   TG is a much happier machine now.  I don't know if my thought process is right or way off base, but it runs as good at 100* as it does at 65*, which is pretty much every day to and from work.  I wished I could get a (non-HD shop) dyno tune to include timing, but haven't been able to find one.

You are right on the money with your observation, and approach to eliminate it.

If you don't like the system pulling timing to prevent high heat detonation (temp vs timing table)...cool it down!

Now if the other trike guys follow your lead they too will be happy.

In fact, if you would like, post or send me the calibration and I might be able make some subtle changes (unless already addressed) to further help radiated heat.

Bob

[Buckeye_Tuning]

First off I was mistaken on thinking the newer trikes had the 255 cams. I thought I read it was added to increase the power output power of the base 103 to help the triglide.

Second if you read my 1st reply on page 1, I stated the same thing you have just said, the canned map calibration from TTS is a starting point for a tune, not the end all be all map tune to load and forget. So we both agree on this

I also agree that a taking the time to do a full tune either by dyno or self tuning using the TTS or other tuning device is needed as each engine runs different depending the fuel quality and octane the engine will be tuned on. With the added weight and wind load place on the engine in a trike platform time has to be taken in tuning both the fuel and spark tables to improve the VE tables.

 Adding fuel does have increased benefits to make more power to point, so adding fuel in the load areas of the map would be different due to load on the engine. The cruise area of the trike will have a smaller window of maximum fuel economy over the the 2 wheel MC. Can you run a engine in trike with the same maximum fuel economy window in the tune, yes. Will it respond the same as a 2 wheel bike to speed up, No!    

The spark table in most calibrations that I have looked at when I was deciding on to use for my engine builds, are set to maximize power output for 2 wheel bikes using high test fuel. The problem is if the spark table in the calibration are set for all out power for a 2 wheel bike the heat & detonation issue becomes worse for the engine in a trike. Why, the trike is heavier and has more wind resistance.

If anyone has driven a vehicle and towed enough added weight you may have experienced detonation ( pinging ) and loss of performance and power. Why, the ecm map can only make enough adjustment as allow by the parameters set by the map the ecm is calibrated to. The TTS has the function to retard the timing which in effect is reducing the the timing set in the map. This retarding occurs under load when the engine demands for more power exceed the loaded map calibrations and it detects the detonation or ping. Add in a restrictive air filter and exhaust and the issues become worse for the power loss and overall responsiveness of the engine. The engine needs to breath in and out.


This has been the basis of my disagreement that the tune for a trike will require more adjustments to the tune in both fuel and spark over the tune for a 2 wheel MC with the same size engine.

 
  

You're not 'getting it.  The base tune will remain the same for both bike and trike.  What YOU are talking about is tuning... and your argument is different base maps are needed, and that is NOT the case.  Both timing and fuel get maximized by TUNING each calibration.  I don't know what you know, or how you think... but making a TUNE from a base cal involves changing timing along with fuel.  Doesn't matter much what timing is in the base cal, you or the tuner should alter those tables for the best running bike/trike.

A TTS base cal, I will say this again... is a STARTING point and no where near the end point.  No two trikes will be exactly the same, as no two bikes are.  TUNING finalizes things.

Also, I don't know who has tuned YOUR stuff, but we who use TTS adjust each and every setting to maximize performance and .... a trike will get the SAME amount of effort as a bike will.  Does NOT take 'more' and is NOT harder to do either.

To the bobs...  do you self tune using Vtune?  You can alter your timing if you already know how to gather data using VTune.  You ARE correct on how a bike gets too damn hot real quick.  It STARTS with the timing being simply too retarded in the base map.  This is why the TTS tuning guide tells how to adjust timing.  I have fixed EXACTLY what you are saying by advancing the timing and possibly clipping the tops off of the temp timing table.  The idea is to keep it as advanced as safely possible... like 4* from actual pinging.

One thing to try is look at YOUR timing tables.  Go one calibration up and look at those timing tables.  As motor parameters change, so do the base cals.  One can copy from a different and more advanced timing table and paste that into a calibration.  This works especially well when your bike's configuration kind of sets between cals.

I had a bike roll thru here with a 117 w/ported heads... and a 555 woods.  Talk about a mis-match.  Instead of taking the cal that seemed to all fit the , the pipes, the heads, etc....., I chose the cal that matched the cams and swapped in that more advanced timing tables.  Worked great, as the bike was stupid hot with the smaller timing for sure.  Surely didn't ping with that retarded of timing but it sure made some serious heat FAST.  Funny thing is... everyone says ported heads do not need as much timing, but this bike proved that rule, I guess.... the cams took NO advantage of whatever head work was done.

Back to 2008trike... these kinds of measures are needed for BIKES, and they are also needed for Trikes, too.  Base cals are just a starting point.  I have a dyno, but cannot do a trike...  but what some of us CAN do is use an onboard monitor, while vtuning, to gather the same info.  It would take me a few days, but it would be about equal to a dynoed bike (I WOULD sniff it along the way for the 80-100kpa regions.  I think Bob, here, does this.  So does Hrdtail78, IIRC.  If anyone were to need a trike tune, Jason is in St Louis, and Bob is in CALI.  Finding a trike dyno WITH A BRAKE is hard to do.

For any trike guys who wish to DIYer it, go to HDF's ECM section and get a hold of The WIzzard or Wurk Truk.

[SteveFLHTK]

Well, per the suggestion of Steve Cole, I went ahead and installed the Stage 1 Air Kit and the canned map for same on the Trike.  Trike runs much better.  Doesn't lose speed so easily on the hills, actually has a bit of pep in 6th gear.  The only issue I have is the same issue I had for a couple tanks before doing this.  Fuel mileage is terrible.  Harley says 38mpg, I know that's a pipe dream, but I'd hoped for 30.  I'm getting about 25 over 600 miles now. Is a VTune gonna help this down the road?  I know mileage will go up a couple as it gets broke in, but this is a lot worse than I expected.  Any input appreciated.

[FLTRI]

Well, per the suggestion of Steve Cole, I went ahead and installed the Stage 1 Air Kit and the canned map for same on the Trike.  Trike runs much better.  Doesn't lose speed so easily on the hills, actually has a bit of pep in 6th gear.  The only issue I have is the same issue I had for a couple tanks before doing this.  Fuel mileage is terrible.  Harley says 38mpg, I know that's a pipe dream, but I'd hoped for 30.  I'm getting about 25 over 600 miles now. Is a VTune gonna help this down the road?  I know mileage will go up a couple as it gets broke in, but this is a lot worse than I expected.  Any input appreciated.

Lean and hot on the legs or rich and cooler on the legs. Your choice.
I'm sure there are a couple more mpg's after a couple vtunes but you have the same engine in your trike (1150lbs+)as in a Dyna (650lbs+) .
Simply put...these bikes need Big Blocks!
Bob

[Mr. Wizard]

Well, per the suggestion of Steve Cole, I went ahead and installed the Stage 1 Air Kit and the canned map for same on the Trike.  Trike runs much better.  Doesn't lose speed so easily on the hills, actually has a bit of pep in 6th gear.  The only issue I have is the same issue I had for a couple tanks before doing this.  Fuel mileage is terrible.  Harley says 38mpg, I know that's a pipe dream, but I'd hoped for 30.  I'm getting about 25 over 600 miles now. Is a VTune gonna help this down the road?  I know mileage will go up a couple as it gets broke in, but this is a lot worse than I expected.  Any input appreciated.

Cough... uhhhhh, that's Wizard with only one Z 

Let's all sing... "I'm off to see the Wizard, the wonderful Wizard of OZ"..  You're welcome, you'll be humming that tune all day now.


OK, OK... I'll type this in bold.  TRIKES ARE DIFFERENT

Where they are not different is they will use the same base cal as any other 103 Touring bike. There are over 200 (says old man Cole) data points in the calibration that we can't see or touch and all these are set by Steve. They aren't for a two wheeler or a trike they are for the model, year of the bike and motor size as well as any larger modified combination he can thing of.

Why are trikes different? Beside the use of the same TTS module and the same base cal the main difference is, they have three wheels and two huge fenders in the rear. This causes an aerodynamic bubble at the riders location soooo, the rider feels more heat so he is more sensitive to it... PERIOD <--  I like saying that, no offense..

Toss in his leg position on a trike along with the additional weight and the additional storage in the truck where Momma puts everything but the kitchen sink and you have your main differences why a trike will have different VE's and timing. Lambda or AFR (with Bias), Warm up tables, Throttle Control, yadda, yadda are all the same. You may find a little difference in the AE, you may find a little difference in the PE Spark, heck, even the EGR will come into play differently on a trike but it all comes down to one simple little fact.... use the right base cal for the right motor. Grab your IVO (and IVC if you can) go get those VE's done. After that setting the timing is where you want to go. FLTR2008Trike isn't wrong, you guys are saying similar things in different ways. He just knows how the tuning will react with all that weight. Just got to trust me on this one. I do think he has built way too many big motors and completely forgot about all his trike buddies slamming in all those removed CVO 255 cams though (Sorry Tom, couldn't resist)

I've offered Cole all the TG calibrations he could stack to his ceiling. Doesn't matter... it comes from the same base cal as a two wheeler.

If you compare a TG with stage 1 to an Ultra with Stage 1... all the mentioned above is different.


btw... Steve... Haven't seen "the Bobs" around for a while, maybe just me but it's good to hear you kick'n.... take a datamaster run with your fans on... check your intake air temp. Do the same run with your oil cooler fan off. Watch the temps drop about 50*F if you are still using the football cover. The Wards won't create such an increase in intake air temp but they too run the intake temp up. Remove that football cover and get more data with fans off/fans on...


To SteveFLHTK... Until you get rid of that cat and get Steve George's X pipe on there your MPG will Suck, excuse me language. No need to find 6th gear for anything unless you are on the hwy going down hill and in a hurry. Stay in 5th, you will get better MPG. Once you flash your ECM you will start Adaptive Values all over again. If you watch and do your math you will find it takes a few three or four tanks and many key on/key off turns for the ECM to write enough adaptations to help your MPG. For the heat, forget it... you will roast until you toss the cat. Many well wishes to you, the old TTS guys here and here from other forums for one reason or another will not do you wrong. Lean on them and learn. Soon you will be very happy man. Even happier when you toss those stock smog cams.



Wiz out... you guys have fun!

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Ummmm...  I WILL be blaming that on my crappy keyboard, Dave!

[SteveFLHTK]

Ok, I have replaced the air cleaner, put on the X-pipe (kept the stock mufflers for the moment).  I've done a couple VTune runs with corrections each time.  Hope I'm doing it right, no idea, as I've never done it before.  After 2 VTune runs, I rode tonight with my wife on the back, had a couple backfires (3 in about 75 miles).  Plan on doing a couple more VTunes tomorrow in hopes of getting it a bit closer.  Seems to be running better, and mileage seems to be on the rise.

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Ok, I have replaced the air cleaner, put on the X-pipe (kept the stock mufflers for the moment).  I've done a couple VTune runs with corrections each time.  Hope I'm doing it right, no idea, as I've never done it before.  After 2 VTune runs, I rode tonight with my wife on the back, had a couple backfires (3 in about 75 miles).  Plan on doing a couple more VTunes tomorrow in hopes of getting it a bit closer.  Seems to be running better, and mileage seems to be on the rise.

When you installed the X pipe did you use new exhaust gaskets that go in the heads? Also, I would check the exhaust connections at the head and mufflers to ensure they are tight and not leaking. The stock mufflers are fairly restricted and I wouldnt think they would allow much reversion to cause the backfiring.

[SteveFLHTK]

Yes, I used new gaskets, I also made sure they were tight and not leaking, and in fact, had a dealership finish as I was close to heat exhaustion before I got it done.