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[owl893]

Anybody anywhere that disables the o2 sensors is to be run away from as fast as you can.

If you really want to go open loop, get a older bike. Doing that to a new bike is asking for trouble

To

Although I don't appreciate your rather clumsy response, based on your experience and contributions to this forum I decided that I should further research the question you raise (above).  Below is a response from The Vance and Hines Tech Center:

"Good Morning,
Unplugging the o2 sensors for the 11'-13' Touring bikes is required. We want the bike running in an open loop so that there will be no confusion between the o2 sensors and the Fuelpak. The o2 sensors detect rich and lean mixtures. Most sensors generate a voltage that the ecm looks at to determine if the mixture is rich or lean, and adjusts the amount of fuel entering the engine accordingly. With that being said, the duty of the Fuelpak is meant to deliver more fuel to compensate for the added air flow from the aftermarket exhaust that has been put on. As you can see there will be confusion between the two, and that is why we ask that you disconnect the o2 sensors.
Thank you,
Robert Martinez / Customer Service Representative
VANCE & HINES
13861 Rosecrans Ave. Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670

t. (800) 592-2529  f. (562) 802-0110"

Further discussion with Rob revealed that Tuners with programmable mapping do the same thing by electronically disregarding the O2 sensors (if connected) this includes Harley's Race Tuner.  Moreover, I called a local Dyno Tuner and he agreed, taking the O2 sensors offline presents a "clean slate" for the tuner and "open loop" is a true "competition" mode. As far as damage to the bike, there is none, void warrantee, probably (most mechanical mods do) I am no longer "under warrantee" anyway.  Admittedly I am no expert, and I have stated MANY times I'm not particularly interested in performance, I made this change for the heat issue, and for a better sound.

Finally, in this topic and others I have read many conflicting opinions from many authors, I thought this was an exchange of ideas, not an opportunity to trash each other.  With all due respect To I disagree with your response, and present the information above as my reason.

OWL

[owl893]

On the V&H Power Duals, does the crushed crossover pipe get replaces as part of the header?  I believe that the Fullsac "X" pipes come with a round crossover pipe as part of his header upgrade.

Dan,
Power Duals come with a round crossover as well.

OWL

[conmore]

One thing I would like to offer as an observation is this.  With the de-catted header and 2" Fullsac baffles, I can clearly hear more noise from the right side than the left side.

Hi there

As a matter of curiosity - how much louder % wise?

Cheers

[Dan_Lockwood]

Hi there

As a matter of curiosity - how much louder % wise?

Cheers

First, Owl, thanks for the information on the V&H crossover pipe.

Conmore, the Ovals were louder across the throttle range, but my answer is going to be subjective and others may not agree.

I would say that the sound is a bit different, in that the Ovals were a bit deeper throatier in sound at idle and maybe 25% louder at idle.  I'll have to admit that I did like the deeper sound of the Ovals at any speed over the Fullsac 2".

Exhaust sounds are VERY subjective.  Drag pipes are very loud but in my opinion do not sound good, just loud. 

The Oval idle issue was not a problem, but even moving out of my subdivision, which is a slight uphill run, the Ovals were a bit too loud and disrespectful to my neighbors.  At freeway speeds the Ovals were probably twice as loud and I had a bit of a time talking with my BSR.  I would not have been able to easily listen to music without headphones or earpieces.

I still feel that I can bark the Fullsac 2" baffles running the gears and it sounds good, but once at cruise speed they calm down very nicely and that's what I wanted for my SERG and my tunes.

I hope this has helped you out some.

[conmore]

First, Owl, thanks for the information on the V&H crossover pipe.

Conmore, the Ovals were louder across the throttle range, but my answer is going to be subjective and others may not agree.

I would say that the sound is a bit different, in that the Ovals were a bit deeper throatier in sound at idle and maybe 25% louder at idle.  I'll have to admit that I did like the deeper sound of the Ovals at any speed over the Fullsac 2".

Exhaust sounds are VERY subjective.  Drag pipes are very loud but in my opinion do not sound good, just loud. 

The Oval idle issue was not a problem, but even moving out of my subdivision, which is a slight uphill run, the Ovals were a bit too loud and disrespectful to my neighbors.  At freeway speeds the Ovals were probably twice as loud and I had a bit of a time talking with my BSR.  I would not have been able to easily listen to music without headphones or earpieces.

I still feel that I can bark the Fullsac 2" baffles running the gears and it sounds good, but once at cruise speed they calm down very nicely and that's what I wanted for my SERG and my tunes.

I hope this has helped you out some.

Hi there
Yes, I agree completely exhaust sounds are subjective. What one person hears can be quite different to another. I had Monster Ovals on an 09 FLHTCU and I personally did not like them. They sounded good at idle and at cruising speeds above or below our legal limit here in Oz which is 100kmh (62 mph) on the majority of freeways. My issue was that at that speed or a few k's above the Ovals set up a drone effect that sent me nuts after a long ride. I had to ride underneath that speed or over it to stop the drone. Db wise they were fine though. Bike had standard headers. I swapped them out for a set of 4" Supertrapp Stouts and they were much better. No drone and not obnoxious.

The standard exhaust as fitted to bikes into Oz sound like a $%rt in a bottle, so because I really like the look of the cans on the CVO swapped out the restrictive baffles with Fullsacs. Sounds heaps better and with standard headers. My "dilemma" is do I, don't I replace the headers with the de-catted headers or go the Power Duals route but I don't want the sound to be so much louder with either choice that I end up biting my hand!

Cheers

[owl893]

I did not find the sound between the OEM headers and the V&H Power Duals to be much different.  Lower, more bass, less heat.  I have V&H Hi-Output slips ons, so I cannot compare it to the Fullsac sound. 

OWL

[rcamp2009]

I have V&H on my 2011 SESG. This bike is stock with pipe and tune. I have decatted head pipe with 2" Fullsac inserts on my 2012 SESG. This bike has wood 7 cams, head work and tune. There is a big difference in sound believe me. There is no question that the V&H sound awesome. That is if you like loud. I mean loud. The Decatted and Fullsac is about 30% quieter at least. I like them both. But if I am going any distance I take the 12 because the drone will get tiresome. The BSR does not like the 11 at all. Just my 2 cents. Also my riding buddy has a 2011 103" SG. He put 255 cams, air cleaner and had borrowed my V&H set up and had his decatted with added CVO slip-ons with fullsac 2". Then had it dynoed with both. Fullsac made 3 more hp and 5lbs torque more. I would say if you like loud with the old hot rod throttle cracking coolness. V&H are the way to go. But if you want equal power and be able to hear radio and BSR. Then Fullsac all the way.

[YELLOWBIRD]

Just wanted to chime in and give my .02 cents worth.

In 2009 with the new frame, one of the first aftermarket headers out was Vance & Hines. It was either the Dresser Duals or the X pipe. I choose the Dresser Duals and added the Rineharts Racing slip ons.

With the 110" motor this set up sounded big and bad, nasty, and everyone know that it was not your normal 96" motor! (If they couldn't tell by looking at the bike)

Long story short, this is a great set up if you want loud and are very serious about crusing the blvd, Main Street, or taking long rides from one bar to the next!

Like most here, I'm a true believer in Fullsac X-pipe, Fullsac CVO baffles of choice (myself have 2.25 cores) TTS Turner.

If you tour at all or even running for milk, you really can't go wrong with Fullsac.

 

YB

[conmore]

I have V&H on my 2011 SESG. This bike is stock with pipe and tune. I have decatted head pipe with 2" Fullsac inserts on my 2012 SESG. This bike has wood 7 cams, head work and tune. There is a big difference in sound believe me. There is no question that the V&H sound awesome. That is if you like loud. I mean loud. The Decatted and Fullsac is about 30% quieter at least. I like them both. But if I am going any distance I take the 12 because the drone will get tiresome. The BSR does not like the 11 at all. Just my 2 cents. Also my riding buddy has a 2011 103" SG. He put 255 cams, air cleaner and had borrowed my V&H set up and had his decatted with added CVO slip-ons with fullsac 2". Then had it dynoed with both. Fullsac made 3 more hp and 5lbs torque more. I would say if you like loud with the old hot rod throttle cracking coolness. V&H are the way to go. But if you want equal power and be able to hear radio and BSR. Then Fullsac all the way.

Hi there
Thanks for the info. Just to be 100% sure are you saying the V&H setup is heaps louder than the de-catted headers/Fullsac 2.00" combination? I like the idea of tone but not so loud I can't hear my radio.
Cheers

[FlaHeatWave]

I always thought that the sound differences were more significant with the mufflers than the head pipe??

[owl893]

I always thought that the sound differences were more significant with the mufflers than the head pipe??

Agree...

[Aussie]

Hi Conmore
I was in two minds of using the V&H power duals or x pipes but did't want to change the look of the bike.
I personally like the standard headers over the V&H, they don't stand out as much and have a cleaner look.
Also access to the clutch cover is not compromised with the std headers. (Something to keep in mind)

However the V&H headers look good but not my choice.

I have the stock headers with no cats and V&H Monster rounds, they sound sweet and not too load at cruising speed.

My dyno results with the setup are, 96.65hp 113.30tq

[Aussie]

.

[timo482]

reply to owl.. working double time thru the weekend gets old and ruins my day for the most part and causes my responses to be short and to the point sometimes close to rude.  i freely admit fully to having fully formed ideas developed over a long time riding motorcycles and working with large machines of all kinds. my hobby is machining - i make things from scratch - blocks of metal into working engines, but my schooling is in biz admin and computer science and engineering. still it pays better to run a volvo 480 or a komatsu dozer all day than it does to do work in a office. i can work in a office when i can't work outside anymore.

purchased my first new sportster in late 78, 79 model. I've ridden a lot of miles over a lot of years, the only bike i ever raced much was a kaw1000 the guy i liked to race, crashed and i kept his engine in my garage as a reminder of what stupid does and is. my opinions are based on hard knocks, funerals, blown engines, and very expensive repairs.

as far as discussion of ideas - i think "as an idea" that o2 sensors and closed loop operation is the neatest thing since sliced bread. i don't ride in competition. sometimes i use pure gas, sometimes 10% ethanol, engines MUST be tuned different for the change in fuel. open loop bikes do very poorly with varying quality of fuel. if you tune open loop for max power with pure gas its going to run leaner with 10%.  in most places the pump won't even say what the mix is. the guy from vance and hines is not exactly being complete or accurate [he is however doing his job well and trying his best to sell you something - he had better sell you something they have a half million dollar fine to pay] - the o2 sensors will cause the system to add fuel if its getting lean. all the tuning systems do some variation of adding fuel to prevent leanness. but the ones that remove the o2 sensors completely can't deal with changes in fuel quality or content. the ideal afr for pure gas is different than the ideal afr for a 10% mixture, a open loop system can't adjust for the changes.  all that said - the world really has changed.... open loop systems are in fact antiquated.

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2011/10/20/bosch-sensors-fuel-injection.html

so i STAND by my idea - if you want to run open loop, its fine, its your money do what you want -  but doing that to a new bike just does not seem like a very good idea at all.

and i STAND by my idea & opinion that folks that sell the snake oil of pure open loop are snake oil salesmen. i don't think thats calling them a name, i think its a statement of fact. i assume that others might have a completely different point of view & that is just fine, but i don't have to agree with them.

to

[Doc 1]

reply to owl.. working double time thru the weekend gets old and ruins my day for the most part and causes my responses to be short and to the point sometimes close to rude.  i freely admit fully to having fully formed ideas developed over a long time riding motorcycles and working with large machines of all kinds. my hobby is machining - i make things from scratch - blocks of metal into working engines, but my schooling is in biz admin and computer science and engineering. still it pays better to run a volvo 480 or a komatsu dozer all day than it does to do work in a office. i can work in a office when i can't work outside anymore.

purchased my first new sportster in late 78, 79 model. I've ridden a lot of miles over a lot of years, the only bike i ever raced much was a kaw1000 the guy i liked to race, crashed and i kept his engine in my garage as a reminder of what stupid does and is. my opinions are based on hard knocks, funerals, blown engines, and very expensive repairs.

as far as discussion of ideas - i think "as an idea" that o2 sensors and closed loop operation is the neatest thing since sliced bread. i don't ride in competition. sometimes i use pure gas, sometimes 10% ethanol, engines MUST be tuned different for the change in fuel. open loop bikes do very poorly with varying quality of fuel. if you tune open loop for max power with pure gas its going to run leaner with 10%.  in most places the pump won't even say what the mix is. the guy from vance and hines is not exactly being complete or accurate [he is however doing his job well and trying his best to sell you something - he had better sell you something they have a half million dollar fine to pay] - the o2 sensors will cause the system to add fuel if its getting lean. all the tuning systems do some variation of adding fuel to prevent leanness. but the ones that remove the o2 sensors completely can't deal with changes in fuel quality or content. the ideal afr for pure gas is different than the ideal afr for a 10% mixture, a open loop system can't adjust for the changes.  all that said - the world really has changed.... open loop systems are in fact antiquated.

http://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-media/articles/2011/10/20/bosch-sensors-fuel-injection.html

so i STAND by my idea - if you want to run open loop, its fine, its your money do what you want -  but doing that to a new bike just does not seem like a very good idea at all.

and i STAND by my idea & opinion that folks that sell the snake oil of pure open loop are snake oil salesmen. i don't think thats calling them a name, i think its a statement of fact. i assume that others might have a completely different point of view & that is just fine, but i don't have to agree with them.

to

Agreed Timo...... V&H did ''BS'' Owl and mislead him to boot. The people who remove Closed Loop are the same people that took out electronic ignitions and reinstall points (back in the day). 02 Sensors are your friend and they will maintain the tune, if the tune is done correct.
Doc