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[Twism_23]

I am changing my cam and exhaust, possibly having heads milled as well. My challenge is whether to bring my bike to my local HD dealer and having them tune it on their dyno using my SEPST or to buy a Power Vision from FuelMoto and use the FuelMoto  tune. My cam  miss a Wood cam so I know fuelmoto would lhave experience with it. The reason I am leery of using the HD dyno is their dyno specialist doesn't work for them year round, he works in the spring, summer and fall and is a diesel mechanic the rest of the time. He has been doing for them for 12 years, so he does have experience I suppose. I do believe that a true dyno should gibe me a tune more appropriate for my bike. Thoughts, thanks.

[Fired00d]

If you have any questions/concerns about the person that will do the dyno tune on your bike then most definitely look at other methods to achieve your goal.... IE: another tuning device or another dyno tuner.... enough said.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[05Train]

Fuel Moto's maps are very good, as they're developed on their dyne.  Use their map and do a couple of tuning runs and you'll be good to go.

[Steve Cole]

While it would be great to buy another tuner/programmer to do the job, you already own one. Check around and see if you can talk with people who have had there bikes tuned by your local dealer. If there happy then use them, if not look elsewhere. Just because the tuner works on things other than HD only gives him more experience at a minim but that still doesn't make him a good or bad tuner.

[Twism_23]

Thanks for input. The SEPST I have came with the bike when I bought it used and the original owner was kind enough to send it and I'm am assuming it works. It is one of black ones that will have to be updated. I am not worried about having to buy a power vision if it's the best option either. The main thing that concerned me was when I asked how long a tune usually takes they said he's usually done within 2 hours. I thought that quick, but I may be off in my assumption.

[hrdtail78]

Can maps are good for starting.  It gets you in the ball park only.  I have never used one from anybody on any tuner that was good to go right out of the box.  Way to many variables.  A base map created for your cam is great.  Does it have your exhaust, intake, compression, injectors?

If you do decide to go that route.  I would learn how to use the Vision and at least map the VE's to your combo.

[Twism_23]

I used FuelMoto for my last bike when I had a PC5. Yes you give them all the specifications you stated as they have from what I understand the most extensive set of maps around. If I go the Power Vision route I do plan on learning how to use it. I may give the HD tuner a shot 1st, still trying to figure out direction to go. Thanks for the input.   

[Steve Cole]

I used FuelMoto for my last bike when I had a PC5. Yes you give them all the specifications you stated as they have from what I understand the most extensive set of maps around. If I go the Power Vision route I do plan on learning how to use it. I may give the HD tuner a shot 1st, still trying to figure out direction to go. Thanks for the input.   

Lots of advertising hype in those statements. Lots of canned calibrations is just that.... lots of starting points. There are plenty of people with lots of can calibrations and since they (Fuelmoto) are one of the newest people using a true programming system I would venture to say they are not nearly as versed as many others are. Do what's best for you is the best advise we can give you but do not believe everything you hear said.

[WildWes72]

I went with a fuel Moto PV and autotune and had my local dealer install the unit. They stated they can't keep the front tire down. They never installed a Fuel Moto unit and was truly impressed. They also contacted Fuel Moto on a few questions and they expressed how awesome the customer service was. They gave me a 10% discount for the contact info on the install.

Maybe that will help you out, but I still would like to see the dyno numbers for myself.


 

[SBB]

I went with a fuel Moto PV and autotune and had my local dealer install the unit. They stated they can't keep the front tire down. They never installed a Fuel Moto unit and was truly impressed. They also contacted Fuel Moto on a few questions and they expressed how awesome the customer service was. They gave me a 10% discount for the contact info on the install.

Maybe that will help you out, but I still would like to see the dyno numbers for myself.


 

Wes, not to burst your fantasy but do you really believe what your dealer told you,

I went with a fuel Moto PV and autotune and had my local dealer install the unit. They stated they can't keep the front tire down.

SBB

[old_dirt]

I think I would stay with the SEPST.  Just because you already own it.  NO tune, from someone else is going to match your bike as one made for your bike.  If you think you can dump in a 'map' from FM and call it a day, you are kind of mistaken.  Yes... it would work, but might not work any better that that 2 hr tune from dude.

If...  OTOH, you can talk yourself into a little DIY tuning?  You would be way ahead of the game if you learned a bit of this for yourself...  I don't imagine there is a whole lotta choices for you within a few hundred miles, so maybe learn it yourself and you would no longer have to worry about it.

[johnsachs]

Don't care nothing about wheels in the air, smoke pouring off the rear tire, or bike getting sideways at the hit.
Steve Cole said it best on the "TTS THREAD", "The best you know is the best you had"   . Pay the money, and use a COMPETENT dyno tuner to map your combo. It's worth it in the long run. Ain't NO corner cutting.  
John

[Twism_23]

@jiohnsachs Where do you get the idea I am trying to cut corners or money is an issue? The original post states I am trying to make a decision because I don't know that there is a competent tuner in my area. There is only 1 tuner and it isn't his full time job, that's my conundrum. Buying a Power Vision when I already have a SEPST isn't saving me any money, I am just looking for a possible solution.
@old dirt I appreciate the thoughts. I figured if I did go the power vision direction, it may force me to do a little tuning like you suggest. You are exactly right when you talk about a lack of options close to me. The only tuner is the HD dealer's but as I stated in an earlier post it's not his full time gig. I haven't ruled against him, but I do need more info. They don't start open their dyno until March so I have time. Thanks

[johnsachs]

@jiohnsachs Where do you get the idea I am trying to cut corners or money is an issue? The original post states I am trying to make a decision because I don't know that there is a competent tuner in my area. There is only 1 tuner and it isn't his full time job, that's my conundrum. Buying a Power Vision when I already have a SEPST isn't saving me any money, I am just looking for a possible solution.
@old dirt I appreciate the thoughts. I figured if I did go the power vision direction, it may force me to do a little tuning like you suggest. You are exactly right when you talk about a lack of options close to me. The only tuner is the HD dealer's but as I stated in an earlier post it's not his full time gig. I haven't ruled against him, but I do need more info. They don't start open their dyno until March so I have time. Thanks

Easy Sport,  
I'm reaching out to all that may be concerned on having/getting a GREAT/PROPER tune.
If there's no one in your area, then try to find someone in another area that can get the job done.
Also, there's nothing wrong with being familiar with the system.
John

[FlaHeatWave]

I am changing my cam and exhaust, possibly having heads milled as well. My challenge is whether to bring my bike to my local HD dealer and having them tune it on their dyno using my SEPST or to buy a Power Vision from FuelMoto and use the FuelMoto  tune. My cam  miss a Wood cam so I know fuelmoto would lhave experience with it. The reason I am leery of using the HD dyno is their dyno specialist doesn't work for them year round, he works in the spring, summer and fall and is a diesel mechanic the rest of the time. He has been doing for them for 12 years, so he does have experience I suppose. I do believe that a true dyno should gibe me a tune more appropriate for my bike. Thoughts, thanks.

I'm going with the PC-V / Auto tune for some of the same reasons you are looking at the PV, no really good tuner for >200mi. here, and I'm out of the dyno business, going to run in closed loop, and if / when I make any component changes to the bike, all I have to do is ride the bike. The PC - V /Auto has some quirks, but I am going to get a small laptop / pad and learn to work with it.
I travel across the continent on the '09 SERG and have a lot of variable conditions that the bike has to deal with, and the tune that somebody does down here in FLA (although it might be perfect here) might not be so perfect at Beartooth Pass...

[Steve Cole]

Be careful in assuming that these aftermarket devices using the Bosch LSU4.x sensor are really going to correct as you are lead to believe they are. The attach chart shows the output of the sensor at ONE fuel mixture versus Altitude and pressure changes. So while it may help some it can also hurt some!

[WildWes72]

   Twi, you're going in the right direction. The PV will give you what your looking for and fuelmoto will give you a good base map. As you see, people get butt hurt when you start talking about dealerships and support, thats for another thread.

   You are only as good as your tune, and the PV is a good tuner regardless of who provides the tune. If you going with the autotune pro system you might need to worry about O2 sensors at 10,000 ASL (NOT). As you already know the PV uses the original O2 sensors during it basic mode.

   I never endorsed, imply that Fuel Moto will cause you front wheels come off the ground or spit rubber on the cars behind you, only to simple express that my local dealership was impressed with the product (World Largest HD Dealer). I have a good developed relationship with them due to the fact our sons race together at the local dirt track.

   I see your brainstorming, due to a couple of threads you have posted. There are some great dudes on here that will steer you in the right direction. By the way thats a really nice bike you have.....

       

[Steve Cole]

 
 If you going with the autotune pro system you might need to worry about O2 sensors at 10,000 ASL (NOT).
       

I think you have misread or misunderstood what the chart above is showing you. What you are seeing is the output from the Bosch sensor when it is reading a fixed test gas value at 13.23. Bosch supplies the correction requirements necessary to make the sensor reading correct but none of the current aftermarket systems use them, including the autotune pro. So when you think it's correcting to a fix mixture it cannot. The output from the sensor must be read along with the pressure the sensor is under (exhaust pressure), altitude and sensor temperature. The range of where your really at is what the chart shows you. Without knowing those corrections all one can do is guess that your somewhere within the range on the chart above. If you go to the ends of the chart the possible range @ 13.223 is really 12.866 to 13.585 AFR or 0.719 AFR error range. If that's good enough for you, then so be it

[hrdtail78]

FuelMoto will supply a map for the PV.  You must buy the PV from them to do this though.  They just don't hand out maps.

[danner55]

FlaHeatWave, 

Mastertune TTS & Doc in Minneola Fl.

Doc is a great tuner! It's worth the drive!

[FlaHeatWave]

I think you have misread or misunderstood what the chart above is showing you. What you are seeing is the output from the Bosch sensor when it is reading a fixed test gas value at 13.23. Bosch supplies the correction requirements necessary to make the sensor reading correct but none of the current aftermarket systems use them, including the autotune pro. So when you think it's correcting to a fix mixture it cannot. The output from the sensor must be read along with the pressure the sensor is under (exhaust pressure), altitude and sensor temperature. The range of where your really at is what the chart shows you. Without knowing those corrections all one can do is guess that your somewhere within the range on the chart above. If you go to the ends of the chart the possible range @ 13.223 is really 12.866 to 13.585 AFR or 0.719 AFR error range. If that's good enough for you, then so be it

Steve,
Thanks for the explanation.
Are there any solutions out there for people that travel to diverse climates / elevations / fuel? Or to run in true wideband closed loop that works?

[FlaHeatWave]

FlaHeatWave, 

Mastertune TTS & Doc in Minneola Fl.

Doc is a great tuner! It's worth the drive!

Doc's reputation is unsurpassed in the tuning world, he's about 400mi from me(just around the block).
If I can't get the PC-V / Auto to deliver, then I will schedule an appointment...

[05Train]

Steve,
Thanks for the explanation.
Are there any solutions out there for people that travel to diverse climates / elevations / fuel? Or to run in true wideband closed loop that works?

Just use the stock O2 sensors to run in closed loop.  But that precludes using the PCV/AT-100. 

[Para Bellum]

The reason I am leery of using the HD dyno is their dyno specialist doesn't work for them year round, he works in the spring, summer and fall and is a diesel mechanic the rest of the time. He has been doing for them for 12 years, so he does have experience I suppose.

Here's a different take on this situation:  A lot of dealers have to lay off people during the winter b/c there isn't as much work as the other seasons, and  many dealers ask for volunteers to take the furlough.  Since this tuner can work as a diesel mechanic, and many others can't, it makes sense for him to take a vacation in the winter when it's slow at the dealer.  It sounds like this guy is working full-time at the dealer when they have 80% to 90% of their business, then making some money on the diesels...and he's been doing this for 12 years, so you know he's stable and reliable.  I don't know this guy's abilities and reputation, but I wouldn't kick him to the curb based on his so-called "part-time" status.  You know he has experience with the SEPST, and you already have one, so...

I'm not knocking FM, but there are millions of combinations of A/C, cam, pistons, head work, and exhaust.  Nobody can have that many specific maps on the shelf, so what you'll get is something "close."  How do I know?  I bought a PC-V with auto-tune, with their map, from them, and it ran fairly well--but not as well as it did with the PC-III w/ a custom map.  Then, when I did engine work, I got another map from them.  It wasn't made for that combination; it was just a (not very) "close" map for a performance cam with high-flow intake and exhaust.  It wasn't nearly as good as their first PCV map, and nowhere near the PCIII custom map.  At that point, I had to take it to a tuner.  Again, not knocking FM; it's just impossible to have a million custom maps on tap, and the PCV-AT couldn't do VE runs.

I haven't used the PV, but the ability to do VE runs certainly will help dial in the base map FM provides.  Whatever you choose, good luck.

[hrdtail78]

Steve,
Thanks for the explanation.
Are there any solutions out there for people that travel to diverse climates / elevations / fuel? Or to run in true wideband closed loop that works?

There is no true wideband closed loop tuners available.  BUT we do have the stock HD Delphi system that is more than capable of dealing with diverse climates (head temp sensor) / elevations (MAP sensor) / fuel (narrowbands/ Ion sensing).

[Steve Cole]

Steve,
Thanks for the explanation.
Are there any solutions out there for people that travel to diverse climates / elevations / fuel? Or to run in true wideband closed loop that works?

I am a little pickie about the names that get used for these sensor as to me it really matters. There are basically three types, Narrow Band, Broad Band and wide band.

Narrow Band = stock type sensor
Broad Band = Bosch LSU4.x sensor
Wide Band = a lab quality sensor that measure accuratly from 2 - 25 :1 AFR

Narrow Band work great near stoich mixture
Broad band used as Bosch tells you to 11 - 18 :1 range with fair accuracy
Wide Band  a lab quality sensor that measure accuratly from 2 - 25 :1 AFR

Narrow Band typically 25 - 35 dollars each
Broad Band typically 45 - 65 dollars each
Wide Band typically 600 - 900 dollars each

Pick your poison but understand what your getting. So when you get told it is 13.2:1 mixture I ask what was it measured with, so I can understand what it really might be. Now if the Broad Band used as the aftermarket is using them is not capable of holding it any closer than what Bosch tells you I do not care what the aftermarket guy claims. For the most part they are no better than what the Narrow Band sensor is going to do. Now if someone or some company starts to use the Broad Band to the Bosch specification that is a complete different case.

[Twism_23]

Thanks, I still don't know which way I'm leaning but I certainly have gained some really good knowledge from everyone's input and thoughts. Luckily I have about 2 1/2 months until I can think about riding up here. Luckily we are not taking our  US trip until April this year so I'm sure I'll have figured it out by then...lol.  

[WildWes72]

   Ok gentlemen, would we not agree that most tuners out there will achieve the proper FAR's give or take. But the magic is in the timing of a FAR within a givin stroke. Most good tuners will tell you that FAR is the easy part but timing is where it at, under the riders load.

   I seen a lot focus on AFR's and people are getting away from timing. Don't get me wrong AFR's can change with the environmental conditions and corrections will benefit. But what changes the most is load on the bike. 250 lbs rider vs 150 lbs rider, running 2 up, loaded for a trip and or hauling azz vs just cruzin. Those are all conditions that FAR's cannot fix and timing is crucial.

   This has been a good thread, so let give Twism_23 some things to look for in a good tuner!!!!    

[FlaHeatWave]

I am a little pickie about the names that get used for these sensor as to me it really matters. There are basically three types, Narrow Band, Broad Band and wide band.

Narrow Band = stock type sensor
Broad Band = Bosch LSU4.x sensor
Wide Band = a lab quality sensor that measure accuratly from 2 - 25 :1 AFR

Narrow Band work great near stoich mixture
Broad band used as Bosch tells you to 11 - 18 :1 range with fair accuracy
Wide Band  a lab quality sensor that measure accuratly from 2 - 25 :1 AFR

Narrow Band typically 25 - 35 dollars each
Broad Band typically 45 - 65 dollars each
Wide Band typically 600 - 900 dollars each

Pick your poison but understand what your getting. So when you get told it is 13.2:1 mixture I ask what was it measured with, so I can understand what it really might be. Now if the Broad Band used as the aftermarket is using them is not capable of holding it any closer than what Bosch tells you I do not care what the aftermarket guy claims. For the most part they are no better than what the Narrow Band sensor is going to do. Now if someone or some company starts to use the Broad Band to the Bosch specification that is a complete different case.

Steve.
I've gotta ask for a little more education. I thought that the o2s in the '09 SERG were referred to as "wide band" 18mm? would that really be "broad band"??
And are the 18mm o2s good or is there something better out there?

Thank you for the info, as I know that you have the real world knowledge to head us in the right direction.

[FlaHeatWave]

  Ok gentlemen, would we not agree that most tuners out there will achieve the proper FAR's give or take. But the magic is in the timing of a FAR within a givin stroke. Most good tuners will tell you that FAR is the easy part but timing is where it at, under the riders load.

   I seen a lot focus on AFR's and people are getting away from timing. Don't get me wrong AFR's can change with the environmental conditions and corrections will benefit. But what changes the most is load on the bike. 250 lbs rider vs 150 lbs rider, running 2 up, loaded for a trip and or hauling azz vs just cruzin. Those are all conditions that FAR's cannot fix and timing is crucial.

   This has been a good thread, so let give Twism_23 some things to look for in a good tuner!!!!    

I'm with you on that, timing is sometimes not as focused on as AFR and is important.

[redmtrckl]

  Ok gentlemen, would we not agree that most tuners out there will achieve the proper FAR's give or take. But the magic is in the timing of a FAR within a givin stroke. Most good tuners will tell you that FAR is the easy part but timing is where it at, under the riders load.

   I seen a lot focus on AFR's and people are getting away from timing. Don't get me wrong AFR's can change with the environmental conditions and corrections will benefit. But what changes the most is load on the bike. 250 lbs rider vs 150 lbs rider, running 2 up, loaded for a trip and or hauling azz vs just cruzin. Those are all conditions that FAR's cannot fix and timing is crucial.

   This has been a good thread, so let give Twism_23 some things to look for in a good tuner!!!!    

Hopefully the long awaited Vtune3 will give us that tool 

[hrdtail78]

Steve.
I've gotta ask for a little more education. I thought that the o2s in the '09 SERG were referred to as "wide band" 18mm? would that really be "broad band"??
And are the 18mm o2s good or is there something better out there?

Thank you for the info, as I know that you have the real world knowledge to head us in the right direction.

18mm sensors are just referring to the thread size.  Narrow bands come stock on HD's.  The 12mm lambda's on the 10 and up are also Narrow bands.  The difference is that the 12mm are heated internally and not dependent on exhaust gases to heat them up.  That is why they are placed farther down stream.

The 18mm that are used w/ some aftermarket tuners and that are used with DJ dyno's are broad band sensors.

True wide bands.  Only person or business I have seen bring them up and use them are TTS.  I don't know what SPX uses.  Dynojet doesn't need to.

[Steve Cole]

ALL stock HD sensors are narrow band regardless of year, model or size. That said it all about understanding what you are working with and use it within it's limits whatever they maybe. Most people do not know and there in lies the issues. We use ALL types of O2 sensors here but understand what we are getting with each one. Since COST is a big factor most will not step up and get the quality sensor and system.

http://www.ecm-co.com/product.asp?5220

Get's you a low end lab quality O2 system. This is far better than any currently used aftermarket kit being used.

Here is what was/is used at HD for road testing

http://www.ecm-co.com/product.asp?lpro

Again much better than any of the current aftermarket systems being sold and used today on HD's.

It's been pointed out that AFR is only part of it and that is true but there is also much more than just timing too. It's a system approach and if your not willing to spend the time to learn, then use, ALL the parts of the system you will never get it. This is where I feel the DIY guy is willing to spend time that others maynot. Don't get me wrong, there are some great tuners out there but there are also a lot that aren't so good. There is NO AUTO Tune. While we have gotten it much closer with our products it still requires and operator to run and understand the tools we provide.

I DONOT want you guys to focus only on one thing yet I do want you to learn and understand the equipment used DOES play into what your seeing. The dynosheet that shows a few lines on it when used correctly is a great help but when it's turned into bragging right many have figured out ways to cheat the system and make thing look better or worse. When I get calls of my bike runs and rides great, much better than before but when I went to the dyno it shows less than before........... what's up? Its hard to explain to the customer to not worry about the piece of paper as it only shows what happens at WOT and most people do not ride there very often. What your feeling is all the things that sheet of paper does not show you.

[Twism_23]

I finally think I made my mind up and am going to give the tuner @ HD a shot with my SEPST. I'm heading down to Bradenton,FL the 1st week of April with a couple buddies may see if I can find someone there if I'm not happy with the tune. Thanks for all the great advice.

[Steve Cole]

You might want to look up Doc's in the Orlando area. One of the best tuners there is, if you going to be anywhere close to him in Fl.

[Twism_23]

Thanks

[mayor]

I think you have misread or misunderstood what the chart above is showing you. What you are seeing is the output from the Bosch sensor when it is reading a fixed test gas value at 13.23. Bosch supplies the correction requirements necessary to make the sensor reading correct but none of the current aftermarket systems use them, including the autotune pro. So when you think it's correcting to a fix mixture it cannot. The output from the sensor must be read along with the pressure the sensor is under (exhaust pressure), altitude and sensor temperature. The range of where your really at is what the chart shows you. Without knowing those corrections all one can do is guess that your somewhere within the range on the chart above. If you go to the ends of the chart the possible range @ 13.223 is really 12.866 to 13.585 AFR or 0.719 AFR error range. If that's good enough for you, then so be it

can you help us layman understand what your chart is showing based on how it applies to HD engines? like, in a naturally aspirated HD engine how much pressure is the sensor mounted in the exhaust under?  how much pressure would that same sensor be under if the sample was pulled through a smaller sample hole prior to reaching the broad band sensor?

I'm biased towards the use of broad bands, mainly due to the notion that some data is better than no data, but I also don't think that range over the full pressure variance posted is overly alarming since these chromed up tractor engines will produce roughly the same power over a range of 12.8-13.8 afr.  The range you state looks like a very wide range when written that way, but in reality it is roughly the target value +/- .360.  With this in mind, targeting around 13.2 seems to place both extremes in the safe power range.  This also is based on the exhaust pressure ranging from .5-2.0 bar, which is a range that I suspect that most average naturally aspirated engines would not have.  

[Steve Cole]

In simple terms it proves the Broad Band sensor, used as it is today, is NO better than reading the stock Narrow Band sensors. Funny how I've been telling people this for years and you have been part of the discussions in the past, so your well aware of what I've said.  While I did state the range was about 1 AFR error and the chart clearly shows 0.72 AFR you need to remember the temperature error is not shown on the chart. There is no more accuracy using the Broad Band than what you already have on the bikes after 2007 to start with.  I have said it time and time again it is NOT a Bosch sensor issue, it is the aftermarket manufactures NOT following the datasheet as specified by Bosch.

As for the range of the chart you feel you need to watch, it all boils down to where the bike is going to be ridden. That would let you select the altitude correction lines on the chart your going to travel and the exhaust pressure variations follow the altitude and type exhaust system being used. Each  one has to be measured to truely know but for those of us that live out west it is a normal ride,, to travel from sea level to 8000 ft, during a Saturday ride!

Edit: You also have to understand that the pressure measurements are Absolute pressure which means you have to include altitude in the measurement. So just in terms of Altitude the pressure can and does change from about 0.8 - 1.05 plus minus whatever the engine and exhaust adds!

[hrdtail78]

can you help us layman understand what your chart is showing based on how it applies to HD engines? like, in a naturally aspirated HD engine how much pressure is the sensor mounted in the exhaust under?  how much pressure would that same sensor be under if the sample was pulled through a smaller sample hole prior to reaching the broad band sensor?

It's easier for me to understand the chart if I convert Bars into PSI.  1 bar = 14.5 psi, 1.2 = 17.4. This would mean that 2.9 psi would be seen above atmosphere.  Playing around with a manometer in the exhaust to help tune ST w/ disc.  I found best balance of power around 2.5 psi.  When choking down the exhaust for tq rise, it is not uncommon to 4-5 psi.  Low throttle openings and low rpm was worthless data.  Things jumped around to much.  But .8 = 11.6 which is 2.89psi less than 14.5.  This is all based on common day at sea level and only one point of the chart.  You have seen my video of the rag in the free flowing exhaust.  What is the PSI swing to have that happen?

Yes, I agree with you on your finding of 100% throttle.  What about 7%-15% throttle wear we are targeting 14.2.  Same school of thought that say NB are junk because of the swing are also dealing with the same tolerance with BB.  The HD Delphi is only so accurate.  TS has put a 5% label on it.  For argument sake.  I will use 5%.  The tuning system that can take that down to 3% would be better.  How can this happen?  HD isn't going to put any better sensors on.  We are limited with what we have.  Next logical step would seem to be resolution of the sensor or the frequency we can see that data or the ECM can use that data.  I don't know if it is possible to speed up the ECM's reaction time to rich/ lean, but it seems that speeding up the data we see is possible, because it has gotten faster.

[mayor]

In simple terms it proves the Broad Band sensor, used as it is today, is NO better than reading the stock Narrow Band sensors.

How exactly does this prove that?  That broad bands are no better than narrow bands? You have often posted that the broad bands come with in accuracies, but where is the data to support the narrow band equivalency statement?

 I know based on the testing I have done comparing lambda based narrow band calculated ve cells in heavier load ranges to those same cells being measured by broad band sensors, the reported values from the broad bands were outside the range that you suggested as the accuracy of the broad bands.  I also know that when moving the ve table values based on the broad band readings the torque line reacted favorably.  This leads me to believe that the broad band readings are better than narrow band readings in the heavier load cells. 

This isn’t a cut on using stock narrow bands. I have no issues with using narrow band sensors in some light load and cruise ranges, but I prefer broad band sensors at richer settings for heavier load areas.   I think that narrow bands should be used in any areas that will be running in closed loop. 

Funny how I've been telling people this for years and you have been part of the discussions in the past, so your well aware of what I've said.  While I did state the range was about 1 AFR error and the chart clearly shows 0.72 AFR you need to remember the temperature error is not shown on the chart.

I’m aware, but you and I seem to always disagree on what the data means.    I’m not at all alarmed by the potential for pressure and temperature error.  Perhaps the target value and natural allowable margin of error of the target afr plays into my favor, which is why I haven’t seen the negative accuracy results of using broad bands.  I really wish you would develop a scalable analog input into the Data Master program to incorporate broad bands into your system.  To me, if you did that your system would eliminate the need to use a secondary data collection and software option.  I see this as a huge potential for you. 

[Steve Cole]

It's easier for me to understand the chart if I convert Bars into PSI.  1 bar = 14.5 psi, 1.2 = 17.4. This would mean that 2.9 psi would be seen above atmosphere.  Playing around with a manometer in the exhaust to help tune ST w/ disc.  I found best balance of power around 2.5 psi.  When choking down the exhaust for tq rise, it is not uncommon to 4-5 psi.  Low throttle openings and low rpm was worthless data.  Things jumped around to much.  But .8 = 11.6 which is 2.89psi less than 14.5.  This is all based on common day at sea level and only one point of the chart.  You have seen my video of the rag in the free flowing exhaust.  What is the PSI swing to have that happen?

Remember that this is Absolute pressure were working with, so 1 bar is sea level normal pressure.

Yes, I agree with you on your finding of 100% throttle.  What about 7%-15% throttle wear we are targeting 14.2.  Same school of thought that say NB are junk because of the swing are also dealing with the same tolerance with BB.  The HD Delphi is only so accurate.  TS has put a 5% label on it.  For argument sake.  I will use 5%.  The tuning system that can take that down to 3% would be better.  How can this happen?  HD isn't going to put any better sensors on.  We are limited with what we have.  Next logical step would seem to be resolution of the sensor or the frequency we can see that data or the ECM can use that data.  I don't know if it is possible to speed up the ECM's reaction time to rich/ lean, but it seems that speeding up the data we see is possible, because it has gotten faster.

Here are a few Altitude point conversions for you guys.

0            1.013 bar
1000       0.977
2000       0.942
3000       0.908
4000       0.875
5000       0.843
6000       0.811
7000       0.781
8000       0.752
9000       0.724
10000      0.697


So as you can see the absolute pressure changes as you ride up and down in altitude and you need to add what goes on in the exhaust to the base number depending on what altitude your at. So when looking for a range to be at on the chart one must use all the information to determine where that might be. I have measured pressure swings in the exhaust pipe (with a typical pressure gauge) of a HD of +/- 4 psi  on a fairly open type exhaust and ones more like a stock exhaust with cat at +/- 8 psi. So the question has to be asked when the sensor reading was taken was it + 8 psi or - 8 psi? This is not rocket science here it's basic stuff that one needs to follow or at least learn to understand what's going on. Jason has it right that it jumps all over the place and you need to get a sensor to measure the pressure swings that is quick enough in response time to see it properly.


Anyone that want to disagree with the data can argue all they want but the data is the data weather you like it or not. If you cannot get you ideas to match the data then you need to go back and start over as the data doesn't change!

Mayor

I am unaware of anyone that is supplying a system today that really measures narrow bands at heavy loads for tuning at this time, the ones I have tested all extend or project the data as the HD ECM has all or part of the correction terms turned off under those conditions, so I cannot see how you can make the claims your trying to make.

[hrdtail78]

.............  When choking down the exhaust for tq rise, it is not uncommon to 4-5 psi.  Low throttle openings and low rpm was worthless data.  Things jumped around to much.  But .8 = 11.6 which is 2.89psi less than 14.5.  This is all based on common day at sea level and only one point of the chart.  You have seen my video of the rag in the free flowing exhaust.  What is the PSI swing to have that happen?

It was there.   

[mayor]

Steve, I'm referring to vtuned (TTS) or basic tuned (Power Vision) narrow band tunes in the 75-80+ kPa and extended cells in lambda based calibrations.  I've not seen one yet that hasn't read lean, and the lean values ate usually in excess of what you state as the accuracy of the broad bands.  This means that even at the worst case scenario regarding the accuracy of the broad bands, they still are a better option in some areas than narrow bands.

[Steve Cole]

So what your talking about is extend or projected values NOT measured, one needs to be clear on that! It at least in our product is clearly called and extended value as that is how it is arrived at, the other guys I cannot say. So you really have no idea what a measure Narrow Band sensor will do under those conditions. Here is the plot for them at there test point.

[Steve Cole]

It was there.   

I know you said it, but felt there are plenty of others that clearly do not understand, so I just want to point it out and used your post just for that. It seems to me that all the people tuning would already have done some measuring as you've done to know about it already but I have found that NOT to be the case. My hope is that people learn from this discussion and follow with doing some reading and testing to learn.

[hrdtail78]

Mayor,

Lets take WOT out of the pic.  Easiest thing to tune for several reasons.  On a decent combo, not max effort or even great combo.  Just a decent one.  You will have a positive pressure in the pipe.  Pressure is equal to 90 degrees of the surface.  Doesn't matter if it is in the pipe or going through a small hole to a block, and then being sampled.  Easiest way to prove this is talking about a DJ sensor with Herko block.  1. you have access to this system, 2. Herko blocks need a vacuum source.  Hold 100% throttle at 4500 rpm.  Toggle pump on and off.  AF doesn't change.  Do same test at 1250 and 7% throttle.  AF will change.  W/out a vacuum dependent block.  The lead hose can be disconnected.  Same can be seen.

My concern on BB vs NB will always be lighter kpa loads.  For reasons the chart shows, but that isn't my biggest concern.  It has been discussed before about the tolerance of AFR these thing will run on.  My biggest concern is polling and sample rates.  At what crank position does DJ poll it's sample?  Is it the same crank degree every time?  Is it the same frequency (samples per second) at 1000rpm as it is for 3000rpm?  We are dependent on an averages at lower kpa's.  I hope that average isn't low because it averaged data after the slug of air passed, or before it got to the sensor.

NB sensors poll at a known position of the crank.  Not trying to convince you of anything.  Just trying to bring some things up for discussion.

[hrdtail78]

Steve, I'm referring to vtuned (TTS) or basic tuned (Power Vision) narrow band tunes in the 75-80+ kPa and extended cells in lambda based calibrations. 

IME I have found the opposite.  BUT I have also seen CLB (or target lambda) tables come into play.  Program blending or hand blending.

[mayor]

if very heavy load up until wide open is thrown out of the discussion, then I tend to agree that narrow bands and broad bands are 6 of one, half dozen of the other. 

My concern on BB vs NB will always be lighter kpa loads.  For reasons the chart shows, but that isn't my biggest concern.  It has been discussed before about the tolerance of AFR these thing will run on.  My biggest concern is polling and sample rates.  At what crank position does DJ poll it's sample?  Is it the same crank degree every time?  Is it the same frequency (samples per second) at 1000rpm as it is for 3000rpm?  We are dependent on an averages at lower kpa's.  I hope that average isn't low because it averaged data after the slug of air passed, or before it got to the sensor.

NB sensors poll at a known position of the crank.  Not trying to convince you of anything.  Just trying to bring some things up for discussion.

I share the same concerns.  I think there is an advantage of the narrow band report speed, and I see a huge advantage with a tuning system that ties the ecm into the sample time.  The later is why I would like Steve to try to incorporate an analog BB sensor input into the Data Master/Vtune program. I'm sure that the report speed of the BB's may not allow that to work though.   

I'm not feeling like you're trying to convince me of anything, I enjoy the discussion.  I also value your opinion.  Same goes for Steve. 

Steve, I'd actually settle for dual non scaled  0-5v inputs...if the scaled option was too tough.    

[Steve Cole]

The problem is trying to compare apples and oranges. When people are lead to believe or think they know that Narrow bands will not measure this that or the other thing, when the truth is they have little to No idea what they can do. My whole point has always been the same and that is simply that the Broad Band systems on the market today are not capable of even coming close to what is claimed. The Broad Band sensor is capable of being much better BUT due to how they are being used they are not. So if the poor range they have today, due to the misuse of them, is good enough, that's fine.

Now if you take a simple Narrow Band sensor and use it, it cannot measure the entire range of a Broad Band can do. If we take the range that we need for most internal combustion engines running gasoline we DONOT need the entire range of a Broad Band sensor. A Narrow Band can and will do the job well enough! Not as well as a properly used Broad Band can, but, well enough for the applications we are talking about and as well as the way Broad Bands are being used today.

Another little missed fact is that the response time of a Broad Band sensor is ~280 Ms once up to operating temperature, that's as fast as it can respond and there is not a damn thing you or I can do about it! So that gets you 3.57 samples per second MAX. As they age or measure richer mixtures that slows some more.  An engine fires each cylinder 8.333 times per second at 1000 RPM, so a Broad Band gets you (8.333/3.57) 2.33 engine firings per sample taken at 1000 RPM. Now let's look at 6000 RPM! That's 50 engine firing cycles per second, so (50/3.57) 14.00 engine firings per sample taken. So a little simple math shows you just how much your not seeing!

A heated Narrow Band sensor up to temperature is ~10 Ms today! So that gets you 100 samples per second MAX. In the HD case the sensor is read once each and every firing cycle at the same place in crankshaft position each time. So, An engine fires each cylinder 8.333 times per second at 1000 RPM, so a Narrow Band can get you (8.333/100) 0.083 engine firings per sample taken at 1000 RPM. Now let's look at 6000 RPM! That's 50 engine firing cycles per second, so (50/100) 0.5 engine firings per sample taken. Since HD has limited it to once per engine cycle it's easy to see the sensor response is not at issue at all with the Narrow Bands like it is with Broad Bands.

So with this information which would you want to be using?

[mayor]

So with this information which would you want to be using?

simple answer, both.  I see no need to limit to just one. They both have their strong suits, and they both have their weaknesses. 

I think that you make a valid point that narrow bands are faster, but in reality once you get above 4,500 rpm or so the need starts to exist to read outside the typical NB operating range. Let's take your 6,000 rpm example.  How often is a HD motorcycle operated at the rpm below ~80 kPa?  That same question applies to 5,000 rpm as well. 

[Steve Cole]

You seem to have your mind frozen and do not want to understand what I posted above. A HD naturally aspirate engine is in no way going, or needs to go, outside of what a Narrow Band can read. You keep repeating that over and over again and your wrong. I do not know how else to say it. While the Narrow Band sensor is not as accurate as it is at say 14.7 it still reads 13.0 as well as a Broad Band does. It also does it as accurately as the Broad Band does as they are being used today by the aftermarket gauges that are being used.

In your stated example using you TS Broad Band unit your data is no better than and possibly worse than what you can get today from the Narrow Bands that are already there and as a matter of fact your TS unit is giving you an average reading of what the engine did over some 14 engine fire cycles at best.  When the Narrow Bands can and do give you a reading from each and every engine cycle.

[mayor]

You seem to have your mind frozen and do not want to understand what I posted above. A HD naturally aspirate engine is in no way going, or needs to go, outside of what a Narrow Band can read. You keep repeating that over and over again and your wrong. I do not know how else to say it. While the Narrow Band sensor is not as accurate as it is at say 14.7 it still reads 13.0 as well as a Broad Band does. It also does it as accurately as the Broad Band does as they are being used today by the aftermarket gauges that are being used.

In your stated example using you TS Broad Band unit your data is no better than and possibly worse than what you can get today from the Narrow Bands that are already there and as a matter of fact your TS unit is giving you an average reading of what the engine did over some 14 engine fire cycles at best.  When the Narrow Bands can and do give you a reading from each and every engine cycle.

ok, maybe I misunderstood this:

I am unaware of anyone that is supplying a system today that really measures narrow bands at heavy loads for tuning at this time, the ones I have tested all extend or project the data as the HD ECM has all or part of the correction terms turned off under those conditions, so I cannot see how you can make the claims your trying to make.

Steve, the above was your own words, not mine....but in the above, we agree.   I do not know of a system on the market today that really measure narrow bands at heavy load and provide data for tuning.  I really don't care about theoretical can do's, I want practical and available.  With that said, I will use a product that is on the market and is accurate enough for the allowable deviation.   

[mayor]

Be careful in assuming that these aftermarket devices using the Bosch LSU4.x sensor are really going to correct as you are lead to believe they are.

what's your take on NGK NTK UEGO sensors?  I'm assuming these do not have the same issues as the Bosch sensors? 

[Steve Cole]

You have been able to measure the Narrow Band sensors at WOT with DataMaster for over 7 years, it's included with the product! There is no one using it at this time for populating the near WOT VE table tuning for you, but that sure doesn't stop you from doing it any more than using Broad Bands to do it. So all it takes is the same amount of effort you put into Broad Bands to do it with DataMaster. So you have practical and available in your hands today.

The NTK sensors are good but it all depends on the electronics they are hooked too. Without knowing that who knows.

[mayor]

You have been able to measure the Narrow Band sensors at WOT with DataMaster for over 7 years, it's included with the product! There is no one using it at this time for populating the near WOT VE table tuning for you, but that sure doesn't stop you from doing it any more than using Broad Bands to do it. So all it takes is the same amount of effort you put into Broad Bands to do it with DataMaster. So you have practical and available in your hands today.

if what you are referring to is sensor voltage, I disagree that it can be done with the same amount of effort.  I would give you possible, but I would not practical.  I don't doubt that some one who puts their mind to it could make it work, but I'm pretty that that same person could have those same cells dialed in with a broad band unit in far less time...with far less miles at heavy load. 

The NTK sensors are good but it all depends on the electronics they are hooked too. Without knowing that who knows.

I bought a couple NGK's Powerdex afr monitors, and the one's I got had the NTK sensors as opposed to the Bosch sensors.  The Powerdex is made by ECM, for NGK.   I've read quite a few comments from Greg Banish on that unit, and he's claiming that they are quite accurate from .7-1 lambda. 

[Steve Cole]

If those units are now coming with the NTK sensor and it's used properly they should be much better than the Broad Band units out there. In the past the NGK units have all used the Bosch sensor with the same downfall as all the others. Greg is a personal friend of mine so I will give him a call and see what he's looked at on the NGK unit.

[mayor]

that would be cool.   

[old_dirt]

Mike, you know that I have been using the powerdex stuff for awhile, and while they do NOT use the same NGK stuff and the lambda pro from ECM, I still can't help but think.... since it IS NGK, and it is ECM...  should be better than the bosch stuff until someone maybe gets 4.9s going.  I have patiently waited for someone like DTT to use a whole new controller and use 4.9s.  4.9s are what OEMs basically use now a days, 4.2s are passe.

[mayor]

I didn't realize that that was the NTK system you had.  I remember you talking about the sensors, but I don't know if you ever told me what the controller was.  How did you get past the scaling issue?  I talked to Sandro a couple of weeks ago and he said he will add that to the list of inputs to the Centurion.  I still haven't spent the money on the TR system yet, but it's on my list of things to do in Cinci.

I really don't understand why DTT doesn't upgrade their system.  I think that the whole system could be improved, not just the sensors.  

[whittlebeast]

This place would make a woodpecker's  head hurt.   It's a two cylinder, wobble fire tractor motor.

.3 sec response time has nothing to do with sample rate,  It has everything to do with matching up the data packets and filtering data.

Andy

[05Train]

This place would make a woodpecker's  head hurt.   It's a two cylinder, wabble fire tractor motor.

.3 sec response time has nothing to do with sample rate,  It has everything to do with matching up the data packets and filtering data.

Andy

But admitting that would mean that there's nothing to argue about.

[hrdtail78]

.3 sec response time has nothing to do with sample rate,  It has everything to do with matching up the data packets and filtering data.

Andy

I think response time has to do with sample rate.  It's a limiting factor.  Look at 4gas tuning.  It is a steady state tuning strategy only.  Why?  Because of response time.  Not arguing with anybody about it.  There is nothing to argue.  Facts are facts.  Forums are forums, and when something starts to get around that is not true.  People in the know should try to set it straight.  Makes everybody more informed.  Sensors seem to be a big topic of misunderstanding.  IMO They all have a place and their pros and cons. 

[Steve Cole]

This place would make a woodpecker's  head hurt.   It's a two cylinder, wobble fire tractor motor.

.3 sec response time has nothing to do with sample rate,  It has everything to do with matching up the data packets and filtering data.

Andy

Please explain to us how you match it up to a two cylinder, wobble fire tractor motor operating above 1000 RPM. Since you have 8.333 exhaust pulses per cylinder at 1000 RPM and you can only get 3.333 samples what are you reading? What is being missed and what is real? It surely isn't what each firing cycle is doing.

So if response time has nothing to do with sample rate please explain how you can get an accurate reading faster than the sensor is capable of reading. Also explain how you filter something you do not have.

In steady state conditions you have the following:
1000 RPM you have missed ~ 40% of the firing events and the reading your getting is some average with reversion mixed in.
6000 RPM you have missed ~ 94% of the firing events!

Now lets look at a normal set of conditions when riding the bike. You let the clutch out at 1000 RPM and accelerate the engine to 4000 and shift. The engine is not in a steady state condition, and you have no idea when your samples are taken with many aftermarket Broad Band systems. So end end up with some randomly taken samples at best.

I have no problem using a broad band or narrow band system but you must understand the limitations of ANY system to make good use of it.