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[Steve Cole]

Be careful in assuming that these aftermarket devices using the Bosch LSU4.x sensor are really going to correct as you are lead to believe they are. The attach chart shows the output of the sensor at ONE fuel mixture versus Altitude and pressure changes. So while it may help some it can also hurt some!

[WildWes72]

   Twi, you're going in the right direction. The PV will give you what your looking for and fuelmoto will give you a good base map. As you see, people get butt hurt when you start talking about dealerships and support, thats for another thread.

   You are only as good as your tune, and the PV is a good tuner regardless of who provides the tune. If you going with the autotune pro system you might need to worry about O2 sensors at 10,000 ASL (NOT). As you already know the PV uses the original O2 sensors during it basic mode.

   I never endorsed, imply that Fuel Moto will cause you front wheels come off the ground or spit rubber on the cars behind you, only to simple express that my local dealership was impressed with the product (World Largest HD Dealer). I have a good developed relationship with them due to the fact our sons race together at the local dirt track.

   I see your brainstorming, due to a couple of threads you have posted. There are some great dudes on here that will steer you in the right direction. By the way thats a really nice bike you have.....

       

[Steve Cole]

 
 If you going with the autotune pro system you might need to worry about O2 sensors at 10,000 ASL (NOT).
       

I think you have misread or misunderstood what the chart above is showing you. What you are seeing is the output from the Bosch sensor when it is reading a fixed test gas value at 13.23. Bosch supplies the correction requirements necessary to make the sensor reading correct but none of the current aftermarket systems use them, including the autotune pro. So when you think it's correcting to a fix mixture it cannot. The output from the sensor must be read along with the pressure the sensor is under (exhaust pressure), altitude and sensor temperature. The range of where your really at is what the chart shows you. Without knowing those corrections all one can do is guess that your somewhere within the range on the chart above. If you go to the ends of the chart the possible range @ 13.223 is really 12.866 to 13.585 AFR or 0.719 AFR error range. If that's good enough for you, then so be it

[hrdtail78]

FuelMoto will supply a map for the PV.  You must buy the PV from them to do this though.  They just don't hand out maps.

[danner55]

FlaHeatWave, 

Mastertune TTS & Doc in Minneola Fl.

Doc is a great tuner! It's worth the drive!

[FlaHeatWave]

I think you have misread or misunderstood what the chart above is showing you. What you are seeing is the output from the Bosch sensor when it is reading a fixed test gas value at 13.23. Bosch supplies the correction requirements necessary to make the sensor reading correct but none of the current aftermarket systems use them, including the autotune pro. So when you think it's correcting to a fix mixture it cannot. The output from the sensor must be read along with the pressure the sensor is under (exhaust pressure), altitude and sensor temperature. The range of where your really at is what the chart shows you. Without knowing those corrections all one can do is guess that your somewhere within the range on the chart above. If you go to the ends of the chart the possible range @ 13.223 is really 12.866 to 13.585 AFR or 0.719 AFR error range. If that's good enough for you, then so be it

Steve,
Thanks for the explanation.
Are there any solutions out there for people that travel to diverse climates / elevations / fuel? Or to run in true wideband closed loop that works?

[FlaHeatWave]

FlaHeatWave, 

Mastertune TTS & Doc in Minneola Fl.

Doc is a great tuner! It's worth the drive!

Doc's reputation is unsurpassed in the tuning world, he's about 400mi from me(just around the block).
If I can't get the PC-V / Auto to deliver, then I will schedule an appointment...

[05Train]

Steve,
Thanks for the explanation.
Are there any solutions out there for people that travel to diverse climates / elevations / fuel? Or to run in true wideband closed loop that works?

Just use the stock O2 sensors to run in closed loop.  But that precludes using the PCV/AT-100. 

[Para Bellum]

The reason I am leery of using the HD dyno is their dyno specialist doesn't work for them year round, he works in the spring, summer and fall and is a diesel mechanic the rest of the time. He has been doing for them for 12 years, so he does have experience I suppose.

Here's a different take on this situation:  A lot of dealers have to lay off people during the winter b/c there isn't as much work as the other seasons, and  many dealers ask for volunteers to take the furlough.  Since this tuner can work as a diesel mechanic, and many others can't, it makes sense for him to take a vacation in the winter when it's slow at the dealer.  It sounds like this guy is working full-time at the dealer when they have 80% to 90% of their business, then making some money on the diesels...and he's been doing this for 12 years, so you know he's stable and reliable.  I don't know this guy's abilities and reputation, but I wouldn't kick him to the curb based on his so-called "part-time" status.  You know he has experience with the SEPST, and you already have one, so...

I'm not knocking FM, but there are millions of combinations of A/C, cam, pistons, head work, and exhaust.  Nobody can have that many specific maps on the shelf, so what you'll get is something "close."  How do I know?  I bought a PC-V with auto-tune, with their map, from them, and it ran fairly well--but not as well as it did with the PC-III w/ a custom map.  Then, when I did engine work, I got another map from them.  It wasn't made for that combination; it was just a (not very) "close" map for a performance cam with high-flow intake and exhaust.  It wasn't nearly as good as their first PCV map, and nowhere near the PCIII custom map.  At that point, I had to take it to a tuner.  Again, not knocking FM; it's just impossible to have a million custom maps on tap, and the PCV-AT couldn't do VE runs.

I haven't used the PV, but the ability to do VE runs certainly will help dial in the base map FM provides.  Whatever you choose, good luck.

[hrdtail78]

Steve,
Thanks for the explanation.
Are there any solutions out there for people that travel to diverse climates / elevations / fuel? Or to run in true wideband closed loop that works?

There is no true wideband closed loop tuners available.  BUT we do have the stock HD Delphi system that is more than capable of dealing with diverse climates (head temp sensor) / elevations (MAP sensor) / fuel (narrowbands/ Ion sensing).

[Steve Cole]

Steve,
Thanks for the explanation.
Are there any solutions out there for people that travel to diverse climates / elevations / fuel? Or to run in true wideband closed loop that works?

I am a little pickie about the names that get used for these sensor as to me it really matters. There are basically three types, Narrow Band, Broad Band and wide band.

Narrow Band = stock type sensor
Broad Band = Bosch LSU4.x sensor
Wide Band = a lab quality sensor that measure accuratly from 2 - 25 :1 AFR

Narrow Band work great near stoich mixture
Broad band used as Bosch tells you to 11 - 18 :1 range with fair accuracy
Wide Band  a lab quality sensor that measure accuratly from 2 - 25 :1 AFR

Narrow Band typically 25 - 35 dollars each
Broad Band typically 45 - 65 dollars each
Wide Band typically 600 - 900 dollars each

Pick your poison but understand what your getting. So when you get told it is 13.2:1 mixture I ask what was it measured with, so I can understand what it really might be. Now if the Broad Band used as the aftermarket is using them is not capable of holding it any closer than what Bosch tells you I do not care what the aftermarket guy claims. For the most part they are no better than what the Narrow Band sensor is going to do. Now if someone or some company starts to use the Broad Band to the Bosch specification that is a complete different case.

[Twism_23]

Thanks, I still don't know which way I'm leaning but I certainly have gained some really good knowledge from everyone's input and thoughts. Luckily I have about 2 1/2 months until I can think about riding up here. Luckily we are not taking our  US trip until April this year so I'm sure I'll have figured it out by then...lol.  

[WildWes72]

   Ok gentlemen, would we not agree that most tuners out there will achieve the proper FAR's give or take. But the magic is in the timing of a FAR within a givin stroke. Most good tuners will tell you that FAR is the easy part but timing is where it at, under the riders load.

   I seen a lot focus on AFR's and people are getting away from timing. Don't get me wrong AFR's can change with the environmental conditions and corrections will benefit. But what changes the most is load on the bike. 250 lbs rider vs 150 lbs rider, running 2 up, loaded for a trip and or hauling azz vs just cruzin. Those are all conditions that FAR's cannot fix and timing is crucial.

   This has been a good thread, so let give Twism_23 some things to look for in a good tuner!!!!    

[FlaHeatWave]

I am a little pickie about the names that get used for these sensor as to me it really matters. There are basically three types, Narrow Band, Broad Band and wide band.

Narrow Band = stock type sensor
Broad Band = Bosch LSU4.x sensor
Wide Band = a lab quality sensor that measure accuratly from 2 - 25 :1 AFR

Narrow Band work great near stoich mixture
Broad band used as Bosch tells you to 11 - 18 :1 range with fair accuracy
Wide Band  a lab quality sensor that measure accuratly from 2 - 25 :1 AFR

Narrow Band typically 25 - 35 dollars each
Broad Band typically 45 - 65 dollars each
Wide Band typically 600 - 900 dollars each

Pick your poison but understand what your getting. So when you get told it is 13.2:1 mixture I ask what was it measured with, so I can understand what it really might be. Now if the Broad Band used as the aftermarket is using them is not capable of holding it any closer than what Bosch tells you I do not care what the aftermarket guy claims. For the most part they are no better than what the Narrow Band sensor is going to do. Now if someone or some company starts to use the Broad Band to the Bosch specification that is a complete different case.

Steve.
I've gotta ask for a little more education. I thought that the o2s in the '09 SERG were referred to as "wide band" 18mm? would that really be "broad band"??
And are the 18mm o2s good or is there something better out there?

Thank you for the info, as I know that you have the real world knowledge to head us in the right direction.

[FlaHeatWave]

  Ok gentlemen, would we not agree that most tuners out there will achieve the proper FAR's give or take. But the magic is in the timing of a FAR within a givin stroke. Most good tuners will tell you that FAR is the easy part but timing is where it at, under the riders load.

   I seen a lot focus on AFR's and people are getting away from timing. Don't get me wrong AFR's can change with the environmental conditions and corrections will benefit. But what changes the most is load on the bike. 250 lbs rider vs 150 lbs rider, running 2 up, loaded for a trip and or hauling azz vs just cruzin. Those are all conditions that FAR's cannot fix and timing is crucial.

   This has been a good thread, so let give Twism_23 some things to look for in a good tuner!!!!    

I'm with you on that, timing is sometimes not as focused on as AFR and is important.