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[MDUltra]

I'm wondering if this rally is a breakthrough in tuning?
I guess it's nice having Bluetooth connection and someone to look at your tune (if you choose)

I've got a '12 SE 110 that I'm thinking of replacing the cam and hate the idea of taking the bike to the dealer (have a SERT) and paying to have it dyno'd when I can buy the FP3 and do it myself for the same $$$

Any thoughts?

[05Train]

Looks interesting.  It's amazing watching the tuning tools get better and better.

[grc]

Got a link to whatever it is you're talking about?  New so-called tuning devices are a dime a dozen, with everyone jumping on the bandwagon to sell one, so we need a scorecard to keep up.

Jerry

[05Train]

Got a link to whatever it is you're talking about?  New so-called tuning devices are a dime a dozen, with everyone jumping on the bandwagon to sell one, so we need a scorecard to keep up.

Jerry

http://www.vanceandhines.com/store/vtwin/fuelpak/66005

[grc]

I'm wondering if this rally is a breakthrough in tuning?
I guess it's nice having Bluetooth connection and someone to look at your tune (if you choose)

I've got a '12 SE 110 that I'm thinking of replacing the cam and hate the idea of taking the bike to the dealer (have a SERT) and paying to have it dyno'd when I can buy the FP3 and do it myself for the same $$$

Any thoughts?

Impossible to tell much from the short blurb on their website, but I don't think you can just assume you can "do it yourself" and come up with a result as good as a proper tune from a fully qualified professional.  You already paid for the SEPST you have, and I would suggest finding a good tuner (don't assume your local Harley dealer has someone who is truly good btw) and get the bike tuned.  All the sales pitch BS and hype from the many companies selling little black box solutions should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.  And btw, it doesn't appear they have a screen like the PV so you would need to use your smart phone to view all that wizbang data while driving down the road.  Just what we need, more people driving and riding distracted.  And the vast majority of people won't know what that data means anyway.  Gimmicks aren't what makes for a good tune.  In fact, a good tune that retains closed loop operation is pretty much self maintaining on a modern system, and you don't need to be constantly monitoring data and screwing with the tune.

Jerry

[hrdtail78]

a couple of weeks ago a Vance and Hines rep stop by the shop with my drag rep to give me a presentation on the thing.  This thing reminds my of the superchip stuff, or something out of the car world.

You start by going through a series of questions.  Year, model, cubic inch, exhaust, and intake.  It comes up with a map and you flash it.  The only pipes I saw was V&H.  Rep said they were going to add more.  Cam question was lacking.  Rep said they were going to add later.  Intake was only V&H, rep said they would add more later.  You do have access to VE tables but the rep didn't know how to record data to change them to your bike.  basically at this point I saw a flash base tuner with limited canned downloads.  It comes from the car world and acts like it.  A lot of cold air intakes and cat back exhaust systems.  He did not want to plug it into a bike, but showed it to me in demo mode.

IMO it is lacking at this time, but I do see potential if they make it more toward the Harley world.  It's as only as good as its base maps, and we know where we are with canned map downloads in this world.

[FlaHeatWave]

Why aren't the TTS, DynoJet, and the rest of the Tuner Manufacturers Bluetoothing similar to this?

http://fp3.vanceandhines.com/#fuelpakfp3

'Seems that all that would be needed is a 2 way Bluetooth dongle that plugs into the diagnostic port and the apps???

I know the V&H is just a "fueler" but this (Bluetooth) is the way everything is going...

[Steve Cole]

I cannot answer for anyone but ourselves but if you plan is to collect data and then make corrections from the data collected Blue tooth doesn't cut it. The through put is really to slow for proper collection of the ECM data. We tested this about 2 years ago and determined that if we were to go wireless it would need to be something better than Blue tooth to get accurate data.

[FlaHeatWave]

I cannot answer for anyone but ourselves but if you plan is to collect data and then make corrections from the data collected Blue tooth doesn't cut it. The through put is really to slow for proper collection of the ECM data. We tested this about 2 years ago and determined that if we were to go wireless it would need to be something better than Blue tooth to get accurate data.

Doesn't your New TTS software have internal data logging capabilities?

'Wasn't thinking about collecting data, just transferring data logs from the flash tuned ECM, making the changes in the smartphone, and transferring the new map back to the ECM

The DJ tuning maps that I have are only 3.04kb, about the size of a 3min. song. 'Wouldn't that be about 10min from uploading the data log to remapping???

'Was just thinking about a PowerVision (flash tuner) type device that I could run off of my iPhone... 

[hrdtail78]

Doesn't your New TTS software have internal data logging capabilities?

'Wasn't thinking about collecting data, just transferring data logs from the flash tuned ECM, making the changes in the smartphone, and transferring the new map back to the ECM

Might work for just controlling starting and stopping of recordings.  Bluetooth Data Recording Control start/stop type thing, but you aren't going to see live data at any resolution.  The flight recorder doesn't need this because you set up the recording options before hand.  You can gather hours of data.  Who wants to review all that data and make necessary changes to the cal with all thumbs.




The DJ tuning maps that I have are only 3.04kb, about the size of a 3min. song. 'Wouldn't that be about 10min from uploading the data log to remapping???

Mastertune cals are more around 47-104kb and the ECM isn't friendly if something stops an upload.  3.04   Maybe somebody should ask about this when comparing tuners.


'Was just thinking about a PowerVision (flash tuner) type device that I could run off of my iPhone... 

Are you looking for a bigger screen?

The V&H does allow you to carry several maps, and lets you view live data.  It's low resolution data such as speed, tach, temp and I don't remember....

I really see a place for this w/ the price for Nasi, Camtech, Yaffee ......... Blue tooth to a pad or tablet for the bikes with untraditional inner fairings.  Control music, video, GPS,

[FlaHeatWave]

Are you looking for a bigger screen?

The V&H does allow you to carry several maps, and lets you view live data.  It's low resolution data such as speed, tach, temp and I don't remember....



I really see a place for this w/ the price for Nasi, Camtech, Yaffee ......... Blue tooth to a pad or tablet for the bikes with untraditional inner fairings.  Control music, video, GPS,

'Not comparing tuners, (so thanks for the smart@$$ comment)

'Was just thinking about a PowerVision (flash tuner) type device that I could run off of an iPhone or  iPad, so that I don't have to plug in wires and carry a laptop.
Last year, a Manager told me that Harley is looking to Bluetooth the whole bike, ECM (I guess for the Diagnostic Port?) and all...

[hrdtail78]

My compare comment wasn't toward you.

I'd wait until the new Maximus from Techno Research to come out.

[FlaHeatWave]

My commented toward you.

I'd wait until the new Maximus from Techno Research to come out.

Late last year, the guys doing my machine work told me about the Maximus, but swore me to secrecy until The Expo.

[Steve Cole]

Doesn't your New TTS software have internal data logging capabilities?

All Mastertune2 (blue interface) product has the ability to collect data without a PC of any type.

'Wasn't thinking about collecting data, just transferring data logs from the flash tuned ECM, making the changes in the smartphone, and transferring the new map back to the ECM

The issue as we saw it was that Bluetooth will stop/start on it's own. When you talking over it you might call it static or a missed word, if that happens during programming the ECM, you now have a dead ECM! So the design would required that the transfer from the phone be made to the interface and checked prior to ever starting the ECM programming.The data rate is too slow and unstable to try and use real time.

The DJ tuning maps that I have are only 3.04kb, about the size of a 3min. song. 'Wouldn't that be about 10min from uploading the data log to remapping???

'Was just thinking about a PowerVision (flash tuner) type device that I could run off of my iPhone... 

Lots of options on how to skin the cat, so to speak but these days. They are much better done not using Bluetooth. The truth really is how many people are out there changing there programming once the bike is tuned properly? Once properly done one tune is all that is needed until you change some components on the bike.

[Hilly13]

Change things! ..........who would do that   

[FlaHeatWave]

My compare comment wasn't toward you.
Sorry!

I'd wait until the new Maximus from Techno Research to come out.

[Steve Cole]

Change things! ..........who would do that   

So how often have you changed components that require a new tune after is was done properly for the changes you had at the time? Most people only change there bikes a few times over the life of the engine. Sure, there are a few of us that love to play around but we are the exceptions to the rule, not the norm.

Just talked with a customer today that tuned his bike back in '05 and wanted to check his tune after all this time because he read the internet and was told he needed to. I asked him how is it running and his answer was great. So I asked why mess with it then, his answer was the guys on the internet said because fuel has changed it has to be redone.

[FlaHeatWave]

In my OP, (which had the title changed and turned over to someone else that posted 5 hrs. later, by the moderator?)

I just wondered if Bluetooth was the way everyone was headed.

And I liked the idea to be able to monitor functions / change parameters with the iPhone, as I already use it for Nav, Music, and Communication.

Steve has explained that Bluetooth doesn't have sufficient transfer rates, and I learned something...

Since we are jumping right into a 117" the only reason for me to retune the '09 is a cam or muffler change.

'Just not in any hurry to put this bike on a dyno...

[Hilly13]

Yes it's good to know Bluetooth won't cut it....

Steve, I'm a tinkerer, three different cams, cube increases, compression increase, TB change, 5 different tunes when I finish this one, I do it because I can and I like it 

[Steve Cole]

Yes it's good to know Bluetooth won't cut it....

Steve, I'm a tinkerer, three different cams, cube increases, compression increase, TB change, 5 different tunes when I finish this one, I do it because I can and I like it 

But are you the Norm? I'm in the process of doing 30 cam changes and tunes right now to the same bike! Once done, then I switch to another bike and do it all over again. I can tell you without a doubt there is no way in hell I want to try looking at cell phone size display to do the tuning. My old eyes have a hard enough time with a 11" display there is no way I would even do it with a 2" x 3" display which is what cell phones today have. I've play here with a 7" PC based tablet that has window on it and doing a Vtune with that size display is about all the smaller I would want to use.

Bluetooth is fine for lots of slow transfer rate and when it doesn't matter about speed but for any real time high speed data it just doesn't cut it. Believe me we have invested a large amount of time into looking at all these things and I wish there was a simple answer but IMHO by the time your get something of a reasonable size to be able to read your up to a 7" display. Look at HD's new (2014) radio's and there touch screens ended up in the same size range! I'm sure if they felt a smaller display would have done the job, thats what we would have gotten!

[FlaHeatWave]

But are you the Norm? I'm in the process of doing 30 cam changes and tunes right now to the same bike! Once done, then I switch to another bike and do it all over again. I can tell you without a doubt there is no way in hell I want to try looking at cell phone size display to do the tuning. My old eyes have a hard enough time with a 11" display there is no way I would even do it with a 2" x 3" display which is what cell phones today have. I've play here with a 7" PC based tablet that has window on it and doing a Vtune with that size display is about all the smaller I would want to use.

Bluetooth is fine for lots of slow transfer rate and when it doesn't matter about speed but for any real time high speed data it just doesn't cut it. Believe me we have invested a large amount of time into looking at all these things and I wish there was a simple answer but IMHO by the time your get something of a reasonable size to be able to read your up to a 7" display. Look at HD's new (2014) radio's and there touch screens ended up in the same size range! I'm sure if they felt a smaller display would have done the job, thats what we would have gotten!

What tablet do you use???

[Hilly13]

Dunno about Steve but I use a 10" dell tablet mounted on my handle bars, makes it real easy to fill a TTS histogram, no I guess I'm not the norm 

[jpdchicago]

Just ordered V&H Power Duals, Monster rounds and Fp3 for my 2014 CVO Road King. I have dresser duals and Monster rounds on my 2003 road king classic and love the sound. Decided to go to Power duals this time for more low end.
That MP3 came in just in time for me...
I will let everyone know how it goes.

[jpdchicago]

I mean FP3

[harleymojoman]

Was very interested however, I have a complete RUSH exhaust system & head pipe. Nothing offered but their brands for the tuning questions at this time . . . . . . . . .
I think they should have delayed introduction until they could offer alternative brands.

[BigLew55]

I downloaded the app. It has a demo mode that can help you look through many of the features.  My initial opinion is that they need some time to further develop it's capabilities. Tuning aside, if it doesn't give you a speedometer calibration option, it's not likely going to make my list.

Still, I will be watching as they will probably be releasing upgrades as time passes.

[grc]

The real purpose of the various Fuel Pak iterations is to help sell exhaust systems, as well as add some extra profit of course.  The previous Fuel Paks had the same limitation in that they had a database of suggested settings for various bikes with their own brand of exhaust systems, but not much if anything for other brands.  From the little information I can find on the Fuel Pak 3, this still looks like it's mostly just like the previous versions in that you use a canned map they provide based on bike model and their exhaust systems.  They do imply that this version will retain closed loop capabilities, which is much better than the add-on boxes that just bypass the O₂ sensors and run open loop all the time.

Time will tell if it's truly a useful tool or if it's just one more piggyback device with the added gimmick of a visual interface.  You would think for the suggested price they would at least include a screen versus making you use your smart phone.  I don't expect many people will bother after the initial gee whiz wears off; how often do you really need to study the simple data this thing will display?  Personally, I'm of the opinion that it is best to get the most capable system in the first place, get the bike tuned properly, and then leave it alone until you make changes to the build that require a new tune.  It is not necessary or even wise to constantly be screwing with the tune if you retain closed loop operation.

Jerry

[jpdchicago]

It does not look like the maps are available for CVOs yet. Shows on their site "maps coming soon for cvo models.
Sent email to V&H to find out when...

[jpdchicago]

Got my answer from V&H.
Maps for CVOs will not be available until May 1st. Could be earlier but,supposedly, ran into problems mapping 110 engines.
IMHO they should have waited to release the whole system until all bugs were fixed...

[Timusa]

Even on their web site they state that the FP3 is only good for "light" modifications, like exhaust and intake.
Cam changes, headwork and larger displacement engines are not covered.
I will stick to my Power Vision for now.

[jpdchicago]

I agree that for anything more than headers and slipons you will be better off with something else. In my case that is all I am planning to do. I am using V&H power duals and monster rounds. I wanted those anyway since I love the sound on my other bike (I have dresser duals on that one but sound will be similar...a little quieter in fact, which is what I want on the highway.) It is the cheapest way for me to do it with that setting. No tuning, just download the right map and I am done.
I have seen a number of good reviews so far...

[FlaHeatWave]

I cannot answer for anyone but ourselves but if you plan is to collect data and then make corrections from the data collected Blue tooth doesn't cut it. The through put is really to slow for proper collection of the ECM data. We tested this about 2 years ago and determined that if we were to go wireless it would need to be something better than Blue tooth to get accurate data.

I guess a lot of things have changed in the last 2 years, as the
Techno Research "Maximus" is going to be launched very soon. It will do everything I was asking about and much, much more... all off of the iPhone via Bluetooth!

[Steve Cole]

I guess a lot of things have changed in the last 2 years, as the
Techno Research "Maximus" is going to be launched very soon. It will do everything I was asking about and much, much more... all off of the iPhone via Bluetooth!

If there is a new interface electronics that collects and Holds/stores data, then fine. If not, Blue Tooth by today's standards is still to slow to handle live data at the speeds of today's HD LAN system. While it has gotten better than two years ago you would have to be sure that you had the latest and greatest on both ends. Now if you don't care about the speed and you go back to the slower data collection rates you can do it but who wants to do that?

[grc]

What exactly is this "Maximus"?  A quick internet search doesn't exactly reveal much in the way of detail, just some vague teaser stuff.  I thought Techno Research was the Direct Link company; is this related to Direct Link or a different product altogether?

Jerry

[Hilly13]

Same stable Jerry, not giving much away are they, we will have to wait and see

[FlaHeatWave]

What exactly is this "Maximus"?  A quick internet search doesn't exactly reveal much in the way of detail, just some vague teaser stuff.  I thought Techno Research was the Direct Link company; is this related to Direct Link or a different product altogether?

Jerry

Since the Admin changed the name of this thread (that I started) and gave it to somebody else that posted 5 hrs later, I will speak about Maximus elsewhere...

[Fired00d]

Since the Admin changed the name of this thread (that I started) and gave it to somebody else that posted 5 hrs later, I will speak about Maximus elsewhere...

FlaHeatWave,
You need to get your facts straight... The original post in this thread was posted  March 12, 2014, 09:16:39 AM and they were speaking of the Bluetooth capabilities of this accessory....

I'm wondering if this rally is a breakthrough in tuning?
I guess it's nice having Bluetooth connection and someone to look at your tune (if you choose)

I've got a '12 SE 110 that I'm thinking of replacing the cam and hate the idea of taking the bike to the dealer (have a SERT) and paying to have it dyno'd when I can buy the FP3 and do it myself for the same $$$

Any thoughts?

and your post was March 12, 2014, 04:41:27 PM almost 8 hours later..

Why aren't the TTS, DynoJet, and the rest of the Tuner Manufacturers Bluetoothing similar to this?

http://fp3.vanceandhines.com/#fuelpakfp3

'Seems that all that would be needed is a 2 way Bluetooth dongle that plugs into the diagnostic port and the apps???

I know the V&H is just a "fueler" but this (Bluetooth) is the way everything is going...

I would suggest if you have information you want to post on this subject you continue posting in this thread instead of creating a duplicate thread just because your thread was merged with an existing one posted prior to yours. Thanks.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Steve Cole]

If this is about tuning all that Blue Tooth or any wireless does is get rid of ONE of the TWO cables. Your never going to be able to see much on a cell phone size screen, unless your going to get one of the new large screen phones and I'm not talking about the new iPhone, it's too small. So with that in mind you still need to use something that has the computing power, memory size and a large enough screen size to see whats going on. With that said, IMHO anything less than a 10" screen is too small. Now where do you put that 10" screen on your bike? I love the idea of wireless but I'm not sold that it's really needed or any better than using a cable for the amount of time your going to use it. Speaking for TTS the current electronics was designed to allow it to work with both WiFi or BlueTooth by adding a secondary board into the unit. Those boards were built over three years ago and I have working units in house. There is added cost in doing it and when talking at length with tuners, most could care less about just not using one cable. Dealing with the noise that can and does come along from the high voltage ignition system, speed issues and cost kind of took this to the back burner for a project for us.

It's new, it's neat but really not going to gain you much of anything. I still like the idea of setting it up to run on an iPad or tablet but feel the phone thing will die quickly once tuners try and use it. Most guys I speak to just want there bikes to run good with no more crap hanging on it. So that really limits the market that is going to buy it, once the new fade sales wear off.

[FlaHeatWave]

FlaHeatWave,
You need to get your facts straight... The original post in this thread was posted  March 12, 2014, 09:16:39 AM and they were speaking of the Bluetooth capabilities of this accessory....and your post was March 12, 2014, 04:41:27 PM almost 8 hours later..I would suggest if you have information you want to post on this subject you continue posting in this thread instead of creating a duplicate thread just because your thread was merged with an existing one posted prior to yours. Thanks.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

FiredOOd,

'Guess I got my panties in a wad because in my original thread I was just using the Fp3 as an example of the use of Bluetooth, not really talking about the V&H product as for some of us the V&H 'fuelers' are limited...

'Figured that this thread started about the V&H Fp3 not necessarily about Bluetooth, so I just spoke a little about The Maximus in my Build Thread in the Twin Cam Section. From what I was told "from the horses mouth" Maximus is definitely worthy of its own thread, 'just didn't feel comfortable saying a whole lot at this time...

No Worries

For anybody getting ready to purchase a Tuner, you might want to wait a week or so...

FlaHeatWave   

[FlaHeatWave]

If this is about tuning all that Blue Tooth or any wireless does is get rid of ONE of the TWO cables. Your never going to be able to see much on a cell phone size screen, unless your going to get one of the new large screen phones and I'm not talking about the new iPhone, it's too small. So with that in mind you still need to use something that has the computing power, memory size and a large enough screen size to see whats going on. With that said, IMHO anything less than a 10" screen is too small. Now where do you put that 10" screen on your bike? I love the idea of wireless but I'm not sold that it's really needed or any better than using a cable for the amount of time your going to use it. Speaking for TTS the current electronics was designed to allow it to work with both WiFi or BlueTooth by adding a secondary board into the unit. Those boards were built over three years ago and I have working units in house. There is added cost in doing it and when talking at length with tuners, most could care less about just not using one cable. Dealing with the noise that can and does come along from the high voltage ignition system, speed issues and cost kind of took this to the back burner for a project for us.

It's new, it's neat but really not going to gain you much of anything. I still like the idea of setting it up to run on an iPad or tablet but feel the phone thing will die quickly once tuners try and use it. Most guys I speak to just want there bikes to run good with no more crap hanging on it. So that really limits the market that is going to buy it, once the new fade sales wear off.

I'd be really surprised if the Tuners will be using an iPhone in the Dyno Cell.

Since I already use the iPhone for Navigation, Music, Communication, Internet Access, etc... (all via Bluetooth)  I think it would be great to be able to use it as a Power Vision too...

If it doesn't work in my world, I can always go back to the old way...

[Timusa]

If there is a new interface electronics that collects and Holds/stores data, then fine. If not, Blue Tooth by today's standards is still to slow to handle live data at the speeds of today's HD LAN system. While it has gotten better than two years ago you would have to be sure that you had the latest and greatest on both ends. Now if you don't care about the speed and you go back to the slower data collection rates you can do it but who wants to do that?

HDLAN = CANbus = 250 Kb/s (up to 500 Kb/s) max data transfer speed.
Bluetooth 2.0 = 2.1 Mbit/s (up to 3 Mbit/s).
Bluetooth 3.0 = up to 24 Mbit/s (current iPhone).

Conclusion – a lot more then enough to handle all the data.

[Steve Cole]

HDLAN = CANbus = 250 Kb/s (up to 500 Kb/s) max data transfer speed.
Bluetooth 2.0 = 2.1 Mbit/s (up to 3 Mbit/s).
Bluetooth 3.0 = up to 24 Mbit/s (current iPhone).

Conclusion – a lot more then enough to handle all the data.

On the surface, yes it all looks fine but under the covers are where the issues begin. It's like anything else, looks good at first glance and that's just why we built it three years back and did some testing. HD did it on the last version of DT too but ended up with a interface that handles all the processes then transfers, as it can, via BlueTooth. So it doesn't operate in real time and the interface is very large in size. If your not worried about real time and critical timing of events then BlueTooth is fine, but if you are, as we are, then you only have one choice if your going to use Blue Tooth and that is to do what HD did in there interface.

All it takes is for data to be dropped during programming and you've got a dead ECM on your hands.

[mayor]

What exactly is this "Maximus"?  A quick internet search doesn't exactly reveal much in the way of detail, just some vague teaser stuff.  I thought Techno Research was the Direct Link company; is this related to Direct Link or a different product altogether?

it's a new product that Direct Link is developing that is designed for the consumer in mind.  The Direct Link system is a tuning option that requires the Centurion/Direct Link system, but the Maximus is a consumer based tuning system that allows the bike owner some tuning ability.  The current Direct Link system can only be tuned by a shop/person who have the Centurion/Direct Link module, so the consumer can't do anything themselves with their tune.  The Maximus will have a Bluetooth interface to send data to your phone.  I think this was their attempt to target some Power Vision market share.   

[grc]

it's a new product that Direct Link is developing that is designed for the consumer in mind.  The Direct Link system is a tuning option that requires the Centurion/Direct Link system, but the Maximus is a consumer based tuning system that allows the bike owner some tuning ability.  The current Direct Link system can only be tuned by a shop/person who have the Centurion/Direct Link module, so the consumer can't do anything themselves with their tune.  The Maximus will have a Bluetooth interface to send data to your phone.  I think this was their attempt to target some Power Vision market share.

    Thanks, now it makes sense.  Of course only time will tell just how full featured it will be. 

Jerry

[FlaHeatWave]

it's a new product that Direct Link is developing that is designed for the consumer in mind.  The Direct Link system is a tuning option that requires the Centurion/Direct Link system, but the Maximus is a consumer based tuning system that allows the bike owner some tuning ability.  The current Direct Link system can only be tuned by a shop/person who have the Centurion/Direct Link module, so the consumer can't do anything themselves with their tune.  The Maximus will have a Bluetooth interface to send data to your phone.  I think this was their attempt to target some Power Vision market share.

"Right to Service" ( Diagnostics ) Compliance is a major factor in all levels of Maximus, the real world flexibility with the ECM is amazing...

Recently, the MoCo is requiring the Dealers to purchase the " new, improved, updated, latest & greatest - fill in the blank..." (it's comical to me that even the Dealers are not immune to the MoCo's Bull$hit) Digital Technician at well over $4k a pop...

A byproduct of the Maximus flexibility is the is the Wideband Logging / Tuning.

Bluetooth!! and I get to play with the i5 some more

[grc]

I don't think "right to service" includes the right to alter vehicle calibration files that affect safety or emissions.  What it does include is the right for a service provider other than a franchised dealer to access the systems and information for diagnostics and repair.  While vehicle manufacturers try to protect their interests in vehicle servicing, and those of their dealers, by making it difficult for the average person to work on their products, they supposedly can't lock out independents from access.

If you were a manufacturer and were accountable for the safety and emissions compliance and warranty of the vehicles you produce, you might tend to be a little hesitant to let any Tom, Dick, or Harry play around with this critical programming.  Anyone hawking a tuning device that can be used to alter this stuff is pretty much FOS if they try to justify selling that device under "right to service".  Tell the truth, it's more like "right to make illegal changes", and that right does not exist.  An aftermarket scan tool for diagnostics falls under "right to service", but a flash or piggyback tuning device does not.  So which is it, is Maximus just a scan tool that outputs to your smart phone, or is it a flash tuning device?

Jerry

[Steve Cole]

Jerry has it right. The "Right to Service" has nothing to do with altering the vehicle. It is just the right to be able to service the vehicle. A "Scantool" for test and repair is what it addresses. If this is what your looking for there are several applications out there for your phone and they will work just fine over Bluetooth as they don't require real-time information. When operating as a scantool if the information gets delayed in time it really doesn't matter, as long as the delays are reasonable.

Where it becomes an issue is when your trying to program an ECM and/or real-time data acquisition. This is what I have been trying to explain in my earlier post. If what your looking for is a scantool then Bluetooth is fine.

[FlaHeatWave]

I don't think "right to service" includes the right to alter vehicle calibration files that affect safety or emissions.  What it does include is the right for a service provider other than a franchised dealer to access the systems and information for diagnostics and repair.  While vehicle manufacturers try to protect their interests in vehicle servicing, and those of their dealers, by making it difficult for the average person to work on their products, they supposedly can't lock out independents from access.

If you were a manufacturer and were accountable for the safety and emissions compliance and warranty of the vehicles you produce, you might tend to be a little hesitant to let any Tom, Dick, or Harry play around with this critical programming.  Anyone hawking a tuning device that can be used to alter this stuff is pretty much FOS if they try to justify selling that device under "right to service".  Tell the truth, it's more like "right to make illegal changes", and that right does not exist.  An aftermarket scan tool for diagnostics falls under "right to service", but a flash or piggyback tuning device does not.  So which is it, is Maximus just a scan tool that outputs to your smart phone, or is it a flash tuning device?

Jerry

The way I understood it, it has both capabilities...

[Timusa]

On the surface, yes it all looks fine but under the covers are where the issues begin. It's like anything else, looks good at first glance and that's just why we built it three years back and did some testing. HD did it on the last version of DT too but ended up with a interface that handles all the processes then transfers, as it can, via BlueTooth. So it doesn't operate in real time and the interface is very large in size. If your not worried about real time and critical timing of events then BlueTooth is fine, but if you are, as we are, then you only have one choice if your going to use Blue Tooth and that is to do what HD did in there interface.

All it takes is for data to be dropped during programming and you've got a dead ECM on your hands.

There is probably some cache memory in FP3 to prevent this. So ECM flash is not performed in real time. As to live feed to be displayed on iPhone screen – not so critical.

[Steve Cole]

There is probably some cache memory in FP3 to prevent this. So ECM flash is not performed in real time. As to live feed to be displayed on iPhone screen – not so critical.

I agree that you must do something or your going to get caught sooner or later with your pants down. The long and short of it is that all you gain with Blue tooth is dropping one cable from the interface to the PC, tablet, phone or whatever you use to instruct the interface what to do. You still have to have the cable to the bike and the interface connected to make the rest of it work.

[kastout]

Has anybody used the new fuel pack 3? thinking about getting one for my 14 SCREAMING EAGLE ROAD KING Any thoughts

[robinswl]

I looked at it but no maps are available for the CVO engine (yet), and I didn't want to be one of their guinea pigs. They also didn't advertise that you could back up your current mapping, or transfer your maps to other devices like a PC. Although I liked their Bluetooth interface and the cloud approach, I opted instead for the TTS Mastertune setup. I bought it from M&M Cycle and it was delivered last Monday evening. After backing up my stock configuration I successfully downloaded a new set of maps into my ECM after upgrading my exhaust to the Fullsac DX header and 2" core configuration. I was able to record data onto my PC, review all the diagnostic codes and backed up my original ECM maps. When I get some time I will try out the tuning feature. I purchased the dual configuration and split the cost with a friend that was real unhappy with the Stage 1 download he obtained the Harley dealer when he bought his motorcycle last December. I gave it to my friend last night and he will download a new map set onto his 2013 FLHTCUI over the weekend. We had to buy a separate cable set for his motorcycle because the cable interface is different from the CVO Limited. Although I only have a couple of miles with this new setup, so far I really like it.

[grc]

Try this thread:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=92627.0

Jerry

[Timusa]

Try this thread:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=92627.0

Jerry

This is the same thread man) Closed loop)

[Fired00d]

This is the same thread man) Closed loop)

That's because the two were merged together after Jerry pointed that out.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[joe_lyons50023]

Have taken 3 of these off already and tuned with flash tuners.  Customers were frustrated with them.

[grc]

Have taken 3 of these off already and tuned with flash tuners.  Customers were frustrated with them.

That's not surprising to me at all.  There is a reason why people can find tons of the various piggyback "tuner" boxes sold by the various exhaust companies on sites like ebay, slightly used.  Or just thrown in the used parts bin in various customer's garages.  The reality never matches the overblown BS in the advertising.  I didn't find it to be a major issue back when these companies only charged a hundred bucks for their snake oil, but now that some are asking for just as much as a real tuning solution I can't help but call BS as often as possible.

Jerry

[jpdchicago]

Vance and Hines just confirmed to me via email than FP3 downloads for CVOs are being released today, May 1st. About time... I have had this thing sitting in the garage for over a month!

[jpdchicago]

FP3 Downloads finally available for 2014 CVOs
Will be testing mine this week and give you some feedback. I have seen a lot of positive reviews on the 103 engines. Can hardly wait to test it on the 110.

[jpdchicago]

Finally was able to test the FP3. As I mentioned in prior posts I had the dealer install power duals and monster rounds on my 2014 CVO road king.
They wanted me to get their download but I went with the new Fuel pack FP3. $200 for a one time download? no way.
The FP3 will also allow me to do auto tune later if I need to.
It only took me 10 mns to download the map with iPhone and flash it to the bike. I went for a 100 mile test ride mixed city and highway and the result is amazing!
Pick up from idle to full throttle is unbelievable.
Took it up to 110 miles/hour and seems like it would never stop (too much traffic to push it higher. Will try that later).
Incredible seat of the pants torque and hp! Even in 6 gear, torque was amazing at highway speeds.
I am not even sure I will need to auto tune. May be with warmer temps. Bike seemed cool after the test. Definitely cooler than stock. It was only 50 degrees yesterday so time will tell...
Very very happy with set up.

[FLHTCUSE7]

Anyone tried the  V&H Fuelpak FP3?

Is it worth the money?

[jpdchicago]

Working great for me. (See prior post). Had to wait for over a month for maps for CVOs but worth it. Not good if you plan to change cams in the future or doing much beyond stage 1.
Can only pair with one bike so do not expect it to be your last purchase ever. On the plus side you can take advantage of all future updates or auto tune later.

[grc]

Anyone tried the  V&H Fuelpak FP3?

Is it worth the money?

Go back to the beginning of this thread, or jump to this post:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=92627.msg1229996#msg1229996

Like the earlier iterations of the Fuel Pak, you will be much better off in the long run if you choose one of the real full featured tuning solutions like the TTS, PV, SEPST, etc..

JMHO - Jerry