Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[05Train]

Figured I'd put the bike up on the lift last night to drain the primary in preparation for the Hayden tensioner/Barnett +1/Clutch Wiz install......Turns out I just kept going and going, and I thought I had everything done relatively quickly and simply.

Hayden install was a snap, and the clutch seemed easy too, right up until I had everything reinstalled. I pulled the clutch lever to test everything, and the piston went out and didn't return. The whole clutch pack stayed stationary. After the third pull, the lever stopped moving.

I'm completely buffaloed. Everything went back into the basket in order, and with the outer primary back on, there's plenty of clearance. What's got me confused is the pushrod. It's just floating there with nothing to pull it back, and I can't find any writeup online to show me how the damn thing works.

I'm guessing that something's not engaged properly at the pressure plate, which is preventing the rod from being pulled back, and that by operating the hand lever without the rod engaged, I've hydraulically locked the system.

Should be an easy fix, I just can't visualize what went wrong on the primary side.

[Yellow09SERG]

I may be way off base here and sure that someone can correct me if I am, but seems like I can remember in a thread somewhere about changing the fixed length hyd clutch rod with the adj rod from the cable pull clutches to allow you to correct the free travel.

[05Train]

I may be way off base here and sure that someone can correct me if I am, but seems like I can remember in a thread somewhere about changing the fixed length hyd clutch rod with the adj rod from the cable pull clutches to allow you to correct the free travel.

I don't believe the free travel is the issue.  I think I screwed something up in the reassembly of the clutch/pressure plate/rod assembly.  I don't have a manual here at work (and I don't have the CVO supplement yet), but I'd assume that there's a cup/lever arrangement that actuates the rod when the lever is pulled, then the rod engages the pressure plate, then when the lever's released, the rod returns towards the right side of the bike.

Those things didn't happen when I pulled the lever.  The rod extended towards the left side of the bike but didn't actuate the clutch, then the rod remained stationary when the lever was released.

[Twolanerider]

Can't know how your reassembly was done since no one was there to watch.   But the pieces you're questioning have a simple enough operation to make troubleshooting straightforward.

When you pull the hydraulic clutch lever it engages a piston in the right side transmission cover.  This piston pushes the pushrod against the clutch assembly.  When you release the clutch lever the spring pressure from the clutch assembly is what then pushes against the pushrod and shoves the hydraulic piston back where it started.

If I understand what you wrote correctly you felt some pressure against the clutch lever for three pulls?  So the pushrod was in contact against both the piston and the clutch at least minimally? 

If that's correct you've got one of only a couple things going on (speaking generally):

Wrong parts combination.  Perhaps something for a cable clutch that doesn't have the right stack up of tolerances necessary for the hydraulic.

or

Assembly error.  Take the clutch back apart, double check it all and reassemble.


Unless you assume something like an unlikely coincidental clutch master cylinder failure or pushrod piston seal going out there's not much else to do.  Good luck.

[05Train]

Can't know how your reassembly was done since no one was there to watch.   But the pieces you're questioning have a simple enough operation to make troubleshooting straightforward.

When you pull the hydraulic clutch lever it engages a piston in the right side transmission cover.  This piston pushes the pushrod against the clutch assembly.  When you release the clutch lever the spring pressure from the clutch assembly is what then pushes against the pushrod and shoves the hydraulic piston back where it started.

If I understand what you wrote correctly you felt some pressure against the clutch lever for three pulls?  So the pushrod was in contact against both the piston and the clutch at least minimally? 

If that's correct you've got one of only a couple things going on (speaking generally):

Wrong parts combination.  Perhaps something for a cable clutch that doesn't have the right stack up of tolerances necessary for the hydraulic.

or

Assembly error.  Take the clutch back apart, double check it all and reassemble.


Unless you assume something like an unlikely coincidental clutch master cylinder failure or pushrod piston seal going out there's not much else to do.  Good luck.

I'm making the assumption that I boned up the reassembly. 

Three pulls of the clutch lever had the pushrod moving towards the left side of the bike but not retracting towards the right side.  The clutch pack itself never budged.  For reference I'm using Barnett part # 307-30-10013.

Yes, the spring looks completely collapsed, however I torqued it to spec.  The pushrod came out with the pressure plate.  I removed the circlip, put the pushrod back into the primary, installed the plates and steels, installed the pressure plate, then reinstalled the circlip, then installed the spring and the Wiz.  Now, I had to hold the pushrod out a hair to get the circlip reinstalled, and I'm wondering if that's the root of the problem.  FWIW, there's plenty of clearance with the outer primary back on.  So if the pushrod doesn't do anything other than ride in the piston on the transmission side, then there's no issue with reengaging that (which is good). 

So the secondary question now is whether I can just push the pushrod back into the piston and get my lever pull back, or will I need to bleed the clutch?

Should have waited for the manual supplement to show up......

[Twolanerider]

So the secondary question now is whether I can just push the pushrod back into the piston and get my lever pull back, or will I need to bleed the clutch?

Should have waited for the manual supplement to show up......

Only reason you'd have to bleed the clutch would be if the hydraulic circuit was opened somehow/somewhere and was able to take in air.  If the system stayed closed you'd be ok.

Only place you might have caused that would be if somehow managed to push the piston completely out of the tranny cover on the right side of the bike.  If the pushrod is in place at all I don't think you could do that.  Honestly can't say for sure since can't know what else might be wrong in the initial reassembly.  But it's unlikely you jettisoned the piston from the cover.

Pump the lever several times then check the fluid level.  If you're losing fluid in the transmission (from the piston being out) you'll know by the fluid level.  If something has happened to allow this to occur you'll be pulling the exhaust and taking off the tranny side cover to put the piston back in.

[05Train]

Only reason you'd have to bleed the clutch would be if the hydraulic circuit was opened somehow/somewhere and was able to take in air.  If the system stayed closed you'd be ok.

Only place you might have caused that would be if somehow managed to push the piston completely out of the tranny cover on the right side of the bike.  If the pushrod is in place at all I don't think you could do that.  Honestly can't say for sure since can't know what else might be wrong in the initial reassembly.  But it's unlikely you jettisoned the piston from the cover.

Pump the lever several times then check the fluid level.  If you're losing fluid in the transmission (from the piston being out) you'll know by the fluid level.  If something has happened to allow this to occur you'll be pulling the exhaust and taking off the tranny side cover to put the piston back in.

Oh.  Joy.

I didn't touch the tranny cover, so hopefully that's not an issue.  And it'd seem like the result would be the opposite of what happened: that the lever would collapse against the grip.

[Twolanerider]

Oh.  Joy.

I didn't touch the tranny cover, so hopefully that's not an issue.  And it'd seem like the result would be the opposite of what happened: that the lever would collapse against the grip.

From your description earlier I didn't know how the lever felt after those first three pulls.  If you jettisoned the piston you would definitely have no lever.  Dead against the grip and no hydraulics at all.  If you're feeling anything else than you've just got some extra free play in the pushrod such that the clutch isn't pushing things back where they belong.  So you're just back to taking the clutch apart again and trying to figure out where the error is.

[05Train]

From your description earlier I didn't know how the lever felt after those first three pulls.  If you jettisoned the piston you would definitely have no lever.  Dead against the grip and no hydraulics at all.  If you're feeling anything else than you've just got some extra free play in the pushrod such that the clutch isn't pushing things back where they belong.  So you're just back to taking the clutch apart again and trying to figure out where the error is.

Yeah.

The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning towards the spring being too tight.  It's the only thing that's making sense.

[Hx2]

I may be off base here, but thinking back to my sportbike/track days, I had a similar problem after replacing a clutch.  It ended up being air in the system, even though it made no sense for there being air in the system.  Had to pump it about 50 times to get the system working, with the top off the reservoir.  Probably an easier way bleed it using the bleeder down on the side cover but ended up solving my problem.  Good luck and looking forward to hearing the resolution.

[sadunbar]

Do the instructions for the Barnett extra plate clutch kit you installed tell you to re-use the dampner ring and dampner ring seat located under the clutch pack, or to discard them?  Some Barnett extra plate clutch kits re-use these pieces and some do not.  Verify you've followed the instructions regarding these components.

If you've properly installed the kit, the next thing I'd check is to verify the release plate assembly snap ring is correctly installed and fully seated.  If not installed properly, the pushrod will move, but the clutch pack will not release.

[05Train]

Do the instructions for the Barnett extra plate clutch kit you installed tell you to re-use the dampner ring and dampner ring seat located under the clutch pack, or to discard them?  Some Barnett extra plate clutch kits re-use these pieces and some do not.  Verify you've followed the instructions regarding these components.

If you've properly installed the kit, the next thing I'd check is to verify the release plate assembly snap ring is correctly installed and fully seated.  If not installed properly, the pushrod will move, but the clutch pack will not release.

Yes, this kit uses the ring and seat, and I've got them in there. 

Somehow the release bearing moved within the pressure plate and came loose.  I've got them pressed back together, but I can't push the piston back on the transmission side.

I'm thinking I need to crack the bleeder and try again?


Sent from my iPad, probably while I'm pooping.

[sadunbar]

Yes, this kit uses the ring and seat, and I've got them in there. 

Somehow the release bearing moved within the pressure plate and came loose.  I've got them pressed back together, but I can't push the piston back on the transmission side.

I'm thinking I need to crack the bleeder and try again?


Sent from my iPad, probably while I'm pooping.

My recollection is the release bearing is held onto the pushrod with a snap ring, and then shoulders inside the release plate, which is held into the pressure plate with a snap ring.  You shouldn't have to crack the bleeder.  It sounds like the piston overextended from the transmission side plate and possibly became wedged, but that can't happen unless the release plate came out of the pressure plate, which can only happen if the snap ring failed or became disengaged from the pressure plate.  But even if that happened, the piston should not overextend from the side cover.

I would suggest taking everything apart and starting over.  Your initial post said the entire clutch pack stayed stationary, but the pushrod moved.  That makes me suspect that it's not correctly assembled, or something has failed, otherwise it's not possible.  You can certainly try cracking the bleeder, but I don't think that's going to solve your problem.

[sadunbar]

My recollection is the release bearing is held onto the pushrod with a snap ring, and then shoulders inside the release plate, which is held into the pressure plate with a snap ring.  You shouldn't have to crack the bleeder.  It sounds like the piston overextended from the transmission side plate and possibly became wedged, but that can't happen unless the release plate came out of the pressure plate, which can only happen if the snap ring failed or became disengaged from the pressure plate.  But even if that happened, the piston should not overextend from the side cover.

I would suggest taking everything apart and starting over.  Your initial post said the entire clutch pack stayed stationary, but the pushrod moved.  That makes me suspect that it's not correctly assembled, or something has failed, otherwise it's not possible.  You can certainly try cracking the bleeder, but I don't think that's going to solve your problem.

And if you're saying the release bearing pushed thru the release plate, then you've installed the release plate ass backwards, which could explain all of your issues, as this would effectively change your pushrod length....

[sadunbar]

And if you're saying the release bearing pushed thru the release plate, then you've installed the release plate ass backwards, which could explain all of your issues, as this would effectively change your pushrod length....

Looking closer at your picture, the release plate is installed backwards.  You should not be able to see the entire face of the release bearing.  The release bearing shoulders on a lip, which is not visible, which means the release plate is installed backwards...   

[05Train]

Looking closer at your picture, the release plate is installed backwards.  You should not be able to see the entire face of the release bearing.  The release bearing shoulders on a lip, which is not visible, which means the release plate is installed backwards...   

We have a winner.

Took everything apart and reassembled it; it did the same thing.  Opened the manual sent to me by a member here and looked at the picture.  Slapped myself on the forehead, re-bled the clutch, reinstalled everything and went for a ride.

I have no idea how I got the release plate backwards, as I didn't recall separating it from the release bearing last night.  What I get for plowing ahead with a job when I know I'm too tired to do it.

Thanks so much for everyone's help.  I'm going to sit in the corner for a bit with a dunce cap on.

[sadunbar]

We have a winner.

Took everything apart and reassembled it; it did the same thing.  Opened the manual sent to me by a member here and looked at the picture.  Slapped myself on the forehead, re-bled the clutch, reinstalled everything and went for a ride.

I have no idea how I got the release plate backwards, as I didn't recall separating it from the release bearing last night.  What I get for plowing ahead with a job when I know I'm too tired to do it.

Thanks so much for everyone's help.  I'm going to sit in the corner for a bit with a dunce cap on.

Appropriate...   

[05Train]

I've earned that.

[OBB]

Don't be too hard on yourself. You might have taught someone else a lesson or two from your mistake. 

[cambo]

I'm glad I'm just doing the Hayden tensioner bit (which apparently was a footnote in this case) and leaving the clutch alone! Here's hoping I won't be needing to wear a dunce cap for something so simple.

[rheiner]

Good eye, Scott D!

[jpb]

I am glad you guys got it solved.  It may be just an optical illusion but the spring looks like it is installed backwards too?

[SBB]

I am glad you guys Scott got it solved.  It may be just an optical illusion but the spring looks like it is installed backwards too?

 

SBB

[05Train]

I am glad you guys got it solved.  It may be just an optical illusion but the spring looks like it is installed backwards too?

It's an illusion.  With the pressure plate reversed, the spring flattened out against it when it was torqued down.

All is well now, and I'm pleased with the upgrades.

[Twolanerider]

Looking closer at your picture, the release plate is installed backwards.  You should not be able to see the entire face of the release bearing.  The release bearing shoulders on a lip, which is not visible, which means the release plate is installed backwards...   

That's why I can't look at the pics here on the phone.  Too damn small.  Can't make out enough detail.  Good catch Scott.