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[serg18]

I am looking  at trading in my 2013 CVO RG for the 14 CVO LImited.  I worked a few numbers with the dealer and he wants full MSRP including prep, frieght, docs and dealer fee.  I offered him the MSRP and taxes but the rest should be negotiable, am I out to lunch here? The offer on the RG was reasonable, not great, but reasonable.  I asked what the price would b eid I take the RG out of the deal and the answer was the same.  Thoughts.

[FLHTCUSE7]

What is a dealer fee?  (What does that include?)

[ultrafxr]

MSRP plus freight would be my limit.  At MSRP I think the dealer is supposed to have plenty of $$ for set up (what little there actually is) and PDI (pre delivery inspection - if they really do it).  Most dealers (including auto) want to charge a 'doc' fee for doing the paperwork.  Man I though doing paperwork was just part of the cost of doing business.  I guess they could tack on a utility fee for keeping the lights on, lol.  As far as I am concerned it is just pure dealer profit.  What I always ask for is a firm 'out the door' price (without taxes - you're going to have to pay those regardless) with no bs extras like doc fee, dealer prep, etc., etc.

[FLHTCUSE7]

I did not pay extra for dealer prep or freight. Of course I have purchased 9 brand new. HDs from my dealer the last 5 years so that might help.

[grc]

Freight is a legitimate fee, as long as they only charge you what Harley charges them.  Currently it is $435.00, and you can look up it up on the spec & pricing page on Harley's website.

Doc fees, dealer fees (whatever that is), and prep fees are bogus charges meant to pad the dealer's profit, and I wouldn't pay them.  Harley already pays the dealer for the tiny amount of so-called prep that's required.  And the profit margin at MSRP is approximately 20%, so the dealer won't exactly be losing money if he sells you the bike at the #39k MSRP.  Do the math, and the gross before any other incentives, finance fees, ESP commission if you purchase one, etc. comes out around $7800.  Pretty damned good profit on a motorcycle, IMHO.

Jerry

[serg18]

Thanks for the responses, I totally agree.  The want MSRP 39000 + shipping 435 +setup 700 + doc fee 399 + taxes.  I am good with the shipping and taxes but the rest seems unnecesary.  Thanks again

[HogBreath]

I dont ever pay a penny over MSRP

[sadunbar]

I dont ever pay a penny over MSRP

Same with me.  I've never paid anything over MSRP - no fees, no freight, nothing...  But I never get that fever where I have to have something either.  I'll pay what I'll pay and they can sell it to me or not.  Somehow, they most always agree to make a sale rather than watch a sale walk out the door.

[metfancowboy]

I dont ever pay a penny over MSRP

Yep, I paid $38,999 OTD. They might get a sale with all of those bs fee's, but it will never be from me.

[dicko]

Well, I hear a lot of big talk here but I wonder how many can follow through?

I am the original miser and negotiator and I bought my CVO Limited for the $38,999 MSRP plus $435 freight plus $995 handling plus $399 doc fees.  I bartered, cajoled, horse traded and negotiated.  I even walked away from the deal for 24 hours but came right back.  The dealer knew that the bike was sold if I didn't buy it and wasn't going to budge.  It really pissed me off but I wanted the bike.  I lost!

However, I was able to negotiate with the finance lady and got a Rider's Edge course for my wife, the first two services (1000 and 5000 mile) free, a battery charger, two helmet quick releases, a poker chip and 10% off of P&A for the rest of the month.  She thought I was going to finance.  I didn't, ha-ha.  It still pisses me off but I love my bike!  I'd do it again.

     -Dick-

[FLHTCUSE7]

It's always fun to read this area. To me this is a toy, it's not that important to me what I pay for it. Toys are always a waste of money. I normally keep a MC a year maybe 2.

Who really cares what you paid for it?  The questions is what did it cost to own the toy!

Acquiring cost - what I get for it when I sell it = total cost. (Normally 10K)

I will probably sell my CVO Limited next year for 29ish. Which means I lost around 10K on it. Works for me.

[serg18]

Good comments from all, and i too change out MC often.  I also understand the idea of whats it worth to me.  The issue is I have a good MC Im riding I am just looking to move up to an Ultra and wanted to get a read on what others are paying.  I belive, the extra fees are unnec, and I get what some will say.....dont buy it then.  I am just looking around to pulse the group.  Thanks for the comments.

[Jswerve]

I didn't do great and I didn't do lousy. I'm happy in the end and that's all that matters. I got the exact bike I wanted and I love it.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

[CVO Aqua-Glider]

I paid MSRP.

I'll sell you mine for less. Make an offer!!!

[HogBreath]

Well, I hear a lot of big talk here but I wonder how many can follow through?
     -Dick-

It's not big talk if it's fact. Walked away from more than one deal when the dealer tries to gouge. Made one deal to buy a bike at MSRP and when I got in the business manager's office I balked at the $250 dealer fee. i'm not going to pay it. I offered to walk, and it wasn't a bluff. Dealer makes the recommended profit at MSRP. I think they make enough to pay the associated costs of filling out a bill of sale. But, if you're happy with what you paid, that's all that matters

Big thing on a trade is what they're offering for the used bike. I expect to be allowed wholesale. I'd rather let it go for wholesale that to hear 40 prospective buyers fuss about a scratch or try to jew me down.i don't have the time or patience for that.

[scottt]

In California the doc fee is much lower, has a ceiling of $80. Having worked with the auto industry I can say that they never ever drop the doc. fee. I would assume that if push came to shove they could always discount the bike by the doc fee and then charge you for it on the contract. That would be actually better because the tax would be applied on a lower amount.

At some point we all decide what something is worth to us, one thing I have learned; once you buy don't look back, just enjoy that bike and forget about the details of the purchase. Their is always going to be someone that got a better deal. Prices vary by supply and demand.

[Jswerve]

In California the doc fee is much lower, has a ceiling of $80. Having worked with the auto industry I can say that they never ever drop the doc. fee. I would assume that if push came to shove they could always discount the bike by the doc fee and then charge you for it on the contract. That would be actually better because the tax would be applied on a lower amount.

At some point we all decide what something is worth to us, one thing I have learned; once you buy don't look back, just enjoy that bike and forget about the details of the purchase. Their is always going to be someone that got a better deal. Prices vary by supply and demand.

Very well put.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

[doublerunner]

Well, I hear a lot of big talk here but I wonder how many can follow through?

I am the original miser and negotiator and I bought my CVO Limited for the $38,999 MSRP plus $435 freight plus $995 handling plus $399 doc fees.  I bartered, cajoled, horse traded and negotiated.  I even walked away from the deal for 24 hours but came right back.  The dealer knew that the bike was sold if I didn't buy it and wasn't going to budge.  It really pissed me off but I wanted the bike.  I lost!

However, I was able to negotiate with the finance lady and got a Rider's Edge course for my wife, the first two services (1000 and 5000 mile) free, a battery charger, two helmet quick releases, a poker chip and 10% off of P&A for the rest of the month.  She thought I was going to finance.  I didn't, ha-ha.  It still pisses me off but I love my bike!  I'd do it again.

     -Dick-

I paid msrp. Nothing more. No shipping,prep, doc, etc
1k and 5k service included
20% off all HD genuine parts, accessories and clothing
10% off all non HD

Some dealers are willing to do this and some are not. There are 2 dealers closer to me than the one I use, but they always try for all the extra fees to them with no extras to me included. That is why they have not sold me a bike. But they both sell a lot of bikes. Not everyone can negotiate but with the dealer I use I really don't have to much. And he always gives me top dollar for my trade in, then again I take really good care of my bikes

[SDCVO]

try to jew me down.

Really...Wow!
You must really be a cool guy...

[serg18]

Thanks for all the responses.  I left the dealer with what I think is a fair offer, MSRP+TTL, nothing more.  I have a great MC now and just wanted more touring capability for 2.  Thanks again!

[HogBreath]

Really...Wow!
You must really be a cool guy...

[dicko]

Thanks for all the responses.  I left the dealer with what I think is a fair offer, MSRP+TTL, nothing more.  I have a great MC now and just wanted more touring capability for 2.  Thanks again!

You got a great deal but, more importantly, you got a great bike.  Enjoy it and ride safe.
     -Dick-

[serg18]

Just to be clear, the dealer didnt accept the offer.  He wants MSRP+frieght+prep+docs+TTL.  When i said I have a great MC, I do.  It is the 2013 CVO RG in green and gold. Maybe a 15 is in my future, who knows.  Thanks again for all the responses.

[ultrarider123]

Good for you to hold out, serg, and yes, you do have a great motorcycle and wonderful color combination.  See, if it was to be, the deal would either have come together as you wanted OR you would have looked beyond price and bought the '14.  Fate has it you keep that great SERG you have....who knows what 2015 will bring so enjoy what ya got, brother.

[Marty811]

I paid MSRP with no additional fees except tax. I have never paid freight or set up on any of my bikes. I told the dealer that I would buy the 7 year extended warranty so he should sharpen his pencil. They also know that I have all my services done at their shop plus any engine work that I need. I'm a good customer.
Traded in my 2009 CVO Ultra with 36K miles for 24K.

[robinswl]

My local dealer who I bought my first motorcycle from ten years couldn't understand why I didn't want to pay $2,000 over MSRP. I offered MSRP plus TTL, cash only deal. They balked. Told them to call me if they changed their mind, then I went down the street.

[dicko]

The fact is that the economy is up and these CVOs move and the dealers know that.  They're looking for the best ROI after some lean years and are not going to give anything away.  I don't think that they are greedy as much as they have high overhead and have been living on a thin margin for a few years.
Check around and then make your best deal and then forget about it while you are riding a great new bike.  I'd much rather be riding than counting all the money I could have saved.
     -Dick-

[SDCVO]

The fact is that the economy is up and these CVOs move and the dealers know that.  They're looking for the best ROI after some lean years and are not going to give anything away.  I don't think that they are greedy as much as they have high overhead and have been living on a thin margin for a few years.
Check around and then make your best deal and then forget about it while you are riding a great new bike.  I'd much rather be riding than counting all the money I could have saved.
     -Dick-

Well said!!

[serg18]

So i did it!  I traded the RG and bought the red Limited.  I paid MSRP+TTL and the doc fee.  I am pleased with the deal and am getting the bike Want.  Thanks to all for the help!

[sadunbar]

So i did it!  I traded the RG and bought the red Limited.  I paid MSRP+TTL and the doc fee.  I am pleased with the deal and am getting the bike Want.  Thanks to all for the help!

Congratulations!!   

[yanks178]

Freight is a legitimate fee, as long as they only charge you what Harley charges them.  Currently it is $435.00, and you can look up it up on the spec & pricing page on Harley's website.

Doc fees, dealer fees (whatever that is), and prep fees are bogus charges meant to pad the dealer's profit, and I wouldn't pay them.  Harley already pays the dealer for the tiny amount of so-called prep that's required.  And the profit margin at MSRP is approximately 20%, so the dealer won't exactly be losing money if he sells you the bike at the #39k MSRP.  Do the math, and the gross before any other incentives, finance fees, ESP commission if you purchase one, etc. comes out around $7800.  Pretty damned good profit on a motorcycle, IMHO.

Jerry

WOW!  I am in the wrong business!!  I sell cars for a living (Toyota Dealership) and we have nowhere near that mark up and I don't think Harley does either.  You can buy a new Tundra 1794 edition for about $49,500 MSRP and our cost is about $48K.. $1500 mark up on the expensive trucks and suv's is it.. Camry Corolla is less than $1000 mark up

[sadunbar]

WOW!  I am in the wrong business!!  I sell cars for a living (Toyota Dealership) and we have nowhere near that mark up and I don't think Harley does either.  You can buy a new Tundra 1794 edition for about $49,500 MSRP and our cost is about $48K.. $1500 mark up on the expensive trucks and suv's is it.. Camry Corolla is less than $1000 mark up

I didn't know they even made Tundra's in 1794...      

[yanks178]

Haha.. Tundra 1794 Edition.. similar to F150 Platinum!

[King2013]

WOW!  I am in the wrong business!!  I sell cars for a living (Toyota Dealership) and we have nowhere near that mark up and I don't think Harley does either.  You can buy a new Tundra 1794 edition for about $49,500 MSRP and our cost is about $48K.. $1500 mark up on the expensive trucks and suv's is it.. Camry Corolla is less than $1000 mark up

No way is that the case, I bought a new 2009 Tundra limited in 2009 and got 3500.00 off msrp at 0% financing.
Car dealers generally pull in 7-9k on trucks, about 3-5k on cars before any incentives the dealer gets. If they don't they can't possibly be in business.
I worked for jap bike dealer years ago,  it works the same way, cars or bikes.
The dealer has a floor plan to finance his inventory which he has to pay monthly on until the unit is sold.
The dealer gets incentives based on the amount of his inventory. Out of the sales price he had to pay the loan off,  the salesman, and all his other employees (secretaries, managers, f&I guy and the guy that preps the bike) pay the rent, plus keep the lights on.
No way is it possible on a $1500 profit margin. Somebody didn't tell you everything. Those numbers sound like the backend dealer incentives.

[SHRADER]

No way is that the case, I bought a new 2009 Tundra limited in 2009 and got 3500.00 off msrp at 0% financing.
Car dealers generally pull in 7-9k on trucks, about 3-5k on cars before any incentives the dealer gets. If they don't they can't possibly be in business.
I worked for jap bike dealer years ago,  it works the same way, cars or bikes.
The dealer has a floor plan to finance his inventory which he has to pay monthly on until the unit is sold.
The dealer gets incentives based on the amount of his inventory. Out of the sales price he had to pay the loan off,  the salesman, and all his other employees (secretaries, managers, f&I guy and the guy that preps the bike) pay the rent, plus keep the lights on.
No way is it possible on a $1500 profit margin. Somebody didn't tell you everything. Those numbers sound like the backend dealer incentives.

Don't know about Tundras, but I have run both a HD dealership and a Ford dealership. The markup on Touring line Harley's is pretty much in line with what has been discussed. I remember that the markup on a new roadking was around 3600 and on an ultra more like 4300 back in 2005. In 2004 the retail on a FLHTCSE was 28995 If I remember correctly, and the invoice was 23500 or so. This does not count prep, any dealer incentives, or freight. On the car side the markup on a typical XLT f150 4x4 that retailed in the high 30's was around 3300 not counting holdback which was 16-1700. At the time the regional average front end, or what the dealerships averaged after negotiations, was just under 700 on a new Ford car and was just over 1200 on trucks. My averages were 1200 and 2000 respectively. Again, this was not counting Holdback which is paid to the dealer once the car is sold. You gotta remember though that most car dealers floor plan their new vehicles, and holdback was conceived to help with this cost.

I worked for a GM dealership and the markup there was less than Ford. A lot less.

Where the real money is at any car dealership is in the Used car business. It is harder for the consumer to "shop" a used car, by that I mean that you can go find 5 identical new vehicles pretty easy, but finding 5 used vehicles with identical miles, and equipment is next to impossible. With the 5 new cars the consumer can find the invoice price on each on the Internet, and that is what the dealers paid. With the used cars there there is no invoice price that can be found and the price is not set anyway. Every used car on every lot in the country is there as the result of a negotiation, either with a customer on a trade, or with other dealers at auction. Therefore the potential to make profit is higher, because of the negotiations, at the time of the used car purchase, and when it is ultimately sold to the consumer.

Regards
Shrader

[Foot Loose]

paid $31,500 OTD 2014 Softail Deluxe.  Cost matters to me, my money comes hard.  Want to retire before I'm 70 YO

[grc]

WOW!  I am in the wrong business!!  I sell cars for a living (Toyota Dealership) and we have nowhere near that mark up and I don't think Harley does either.  You can buy a new Tundra 1794 edition for about $49,500 MSRP and our cost is about $48K.. $1500 mark up on the expensive trucks and suv's is it.. Camry Corolla is less than $1000 mark up

yanks, I can assure you my information is correct.  You may not "think" it is, but it is.

As for your claim that a $49,500 Tundra only has a $1500 dealer discount (markup); if you really believe that, and it wasn't just a typo that substituted a 1 for a 4, your dealership has seriously misled you.  If a salesman is working on commission and the dealer can convince him the gross is $1500 when it's really $4500, guess who makes out and at who's expense?  And btw, that "MSRP minus invoice" profit margin doesn't include things like holdback and other dealer incentives from the factory, or the backend profits from all the various add-ons like financing, extended service contracts, dealer installed accessories, paint protection packages, etc..  The true gross is a lot higher than just what shows on the invoice.

Jerry

[yanks178]

I see the invoice and know the markup is not there on a Toyota.  I've also been at a GMC and a KIA dealership.. there is no $3-5K markup in any new vehicles.  It is all volume anymore.  We sold a 14 FJ Cruiser Trail Teams for 2K over invoice because it was the only 1 we had with 3 people wanting it and we made $3700 on the front end.

I've been in F&I and a desk manager so I've seen quite a bit.. front and back is an average of about 2K now.. the days of 4K gross is done in the car business... At our dealership we do not pay on gross anymore.  It is all volume based to get each sales guy to sell 20 plus cars per month.   The lights are kept on by service!  Those boys are pulling in the gross now!

Used can be a money maker but with the internet you have to be lower than everyone around or you will not sell the vehicle. People will drive 100 miles to save $100 anymore.

If Harley can pull in that type of gross good job!  In my neck of the woods the window is so small to make the money so the need to get it done!

[SDCVO]

Don't know about Tundras, but I have run both a HD dealership and a Ford dealership. The markup on Touring line Harley's is pretty much in line with what has been discussed. I remember that the markup on a new roadking was around 3600 and on an ultra more like 4300 back in 2005. In 2004 the retail on a FLHTCSE was 28995 If I remember correctly, and the invoice was 23500 or so. This does not count prep, any dealer incentives, or freight. On the car side the markup on a typical XLT f150 4x4 that retailed in the high 30's was around 3300 not counting holdback which was 16-1700. At the time the regional average front end, or what the dealerships averaged after negotiations, was just under 700 on a new Ford car and was just over 1200 on trucks. My averages were 1200 and 2000 respectively. Again, this was not counting Holdback which is paid to the dealer once the car is sold. You gotta remember though that most car dealers floor plan their new vehicles, and holdback was conceived to help with this cost.

I worked for a GM dealership and the markup there was less than Ford. A lot less.

Where the real money is at any car dealership is in the Used car business. It is harder for the consumer to "shop" a used car, by that I mean that you can go find 5 identical new vehicles pretty easy, but finding 5 used vehicles with identical miles, and equipment is next to impossible. With the 5 new cars the consumer can find the invoice price on each on the Internet, and that is what the dealers paid. With the used cars there there is no invoice price that can be found and the price is not set anyway. Every used car on every lot in the country is there as the result of a negotiation, either with a customer on a trade, or with other dealers at auction. Therefore the potential to make profit is higher, because of the negotiations, at the time of the used car purchase, and when it is ultimately sold to the consumer.

Regards
Shrader

The Margins in the automotive world are some of the worst in any business world. The average in the US is under 2% compared to the "tech" world which runs well over 15%. The dealers have to depend on keeping the revenue as high as possible in a insanely competitive market. HD dealers have enjoyed much less competition as a whole but it is starting to change slowly in some large markets now that "supply" on most of their products is no longer an issue. Unfortunately that is not usually the case with the more popular CVO's which at the end of the day is what most of us want. If they started "upping" the CVO supply though we would all be paying much less for our bikes, I personally would not like seeing a glut of them on the showrooms when I go to the different stores..

[yanks178]

I am at work and looked.. Tundra MSRP $49960, invoiced for it $47908.. $2052 mark up so I was a bit off, my apologies.

[steve.link]

A new CVO Limited is close to $50k in the UK but some dealers are now discounting up to 10% - $5k.
Still a lot of money!

[FLHTCUSE7]

 Porsche has nice margins!

[FinalShot]

The price a dealer pays for a vehicle depends on many factors such as volume, program discounts, dealer discounts and goals met. Yes, it's the I have a buddy thing but....  I have a buddy who buys for one of the largest Honda dealers and we've discussed pricing. He buys at a considerable discount compared to other local Honda dealers. But, they have no issue moving a hundred to two cars a week either.

You can also look at www.seedealercost.com and I have found it to be pretty accurate.

[waynel]

Got mine last week in Lafayette Louisiana. Awesome value trade on my 2011 CVO and 2 grand under msrp with no bull sh## charges. Very happy with deal. Having a rough idle problem with the engine which I hope to have solved tomorrow,

[BigD2112]

I personally like to buy high and sell low.  hahahah When you are trading in a bike the number you need to focus on is the difference.  Buying bikes earlier in the year are going to be a little higher than the latter part of the year.  The dealer can make you feel good by discounting MSRP, freight, set up by giving you a real low ball on your trade in....Or you may get a very nice trade in value but the dealer my not be flexible with discounting the price and the add on fees.  I personally buy from the same dealer, and same salesperson for the last 4 bikes.  Sometimes is not the price that you pay, but that time when the service department covers a repair under warranty that may have expired 2 or 3 months ago because of your loyalty at the dealership.  Or getting VIP treatment when your bike needs repair and you need it back.....there are a lot of little things that you benefit from if you stick to a good solid local dealer....rather than drive across the state to save $500.  this is just my personal opinion....there are many that feel differently and i certainly respect them for that.  I pay cash for my bikes...so the interest expense savings usually offset the TRUE cost of ownership which should include this overlooked portion

[Doniwin]

Yes, I do business with the same dealer. I buy the extended warranty, the service package, and nail in the tire replacement coverage. I also prefer to get more on my trade in, that saves some money on the taxes. I want my local dealer to be strong and stay in business by making a profit. I also like being considered a good customer, they treat me with respect and great service.

[wachuko]

Well, I hear a lot of big talk here but I wonder how many can follow through?...

I learned my lesson with the first HD purchased... since then I have had three dealers (now two since one bought the other) to send my business to.  I tell them off the bat that I have given the same list of what I want to each of the dealers.  Since it is a toy, that I can live without, I have no issues walking away from the deal.  It is not about being a d** but dealing openly and direct.  And so far, after that first sour experience, I think that I have done well.  I also do my homework with the finance and have the bike approved at the lowest rate that I can find.  Since the dealer makes money on the financing I give them the opportunity to match the rate.

I want them to stay in business...but they don't have to royally screw me to do so... this is the 6th HD that we have purchased.  I keep telling my wife that it is the last... but she knows that even if that is my intention, it is not true 

[Doniwin]

Before buying any big ticket item including a new Harley Davidson, doing your homework and being prepared for the negotiations is the best way to gain a dealerships respect. If the dealership values its relationship with their customers beyond the bottom line this attitude will be obvious with every employee you encounter. I have walked out of many dealerships after being the object of BS business practices. I enjoy getting a good deal and I enjoy going to the dealership I bought my bikes from. This is due to mutual respect and the friendly faces of people who work there. This works for me.

[wachuko]

Before buying any big ticket item including a new Harley Davidson, doing your homework and being prepared for the negotiations is the best way to gain a dealerships respect. If the dealership values its relationship with their customers beyond the bottom line this attitude will be obvious with every employee you encounter. I have walked out of many dealerships after being the object of BS business practices. I enjoy getting a good deal and I enjoy going to the dealership I bought my bikes from. This is due to mutual respect and the friendly faces of people who work there. This works for me.

Doniwin, got my recent HD from the guys at Space Coast HD.