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CVO Social => Other Topics => Topic started by: SPIDERMAN on April 28, 2006, 10:23:54 PM
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THis thread may not get off the ground, but I'm gonna try. What's the sense of getting to 1,000 posts if I don't feel like I said anything in any of them So here goes.
The National Anthem of the United States of America is not, never was and never will be translated into Spanish by anyone who considers themselves a real American.My blood is boiling after seeing on the news today that this has happened.What they have created is The Illegal Aliens anthem and that is giving the piece of chit too much credit
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THis thread may not get off the ground, but I'm gonna try. What's the sense of getting to 1,000 posts if I don't feel like I said anything in any of them So here goes.
The National Anthem of the United States of America is not, never was and never will be translated into Spanish by anyone who considers themselves a real American.My blood is boiling after seeing on the news today that this has happened.What they have created is The Illegal Aliens anthem and that is giving the piece of chit too much credit
If I go to Germany I do my best to speak German, when I go to Mexico I work at speaking Spanish etc. If I moved to another country (no chance) I would definitely speak the language, WTF is so hard to understand about that principle.
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The National Anthem of the United States of America is not, never was and never will be translated into Spanish by anyone who considers themselves a real American.My blood is boiling after seeing on the news today that this has happened.What they have created is The Illegal Aliens anthem and that is giving the piece of chit too much credit
Check out Limbaugh on immigration proposals, listen to it all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUe7tGLUM64&search=immigrants
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THis thread may not get off the ground, but I'm gonna try. What's the sense of getting to 1,000 posts if I don't feel like I said anything in any of them So here goes.
The National Anthem of the United States of America is not, never was and never will be translated into Spanish by anyone who considers themselves a real American.My blood is boiling after seeing on the news today that this has happened.What they have created is The Illegal Aliens anthem and that is giving the piece of chit too much credit
Big B,
That's just the latest item in this "immigration" issue that has me pissed off. How about millions of illegal immigrants marching and disrupting our cities while demanding their rights. I realize that much of our government, and society in general, has turned into a bunch of spineless apologists for every BS group out there, but when the hell did foreigners who have blatantly broken Federal laws and abused the American taxpayers get legal rights? If I break the law, my ass goes to the clink. They break the law, and our politicians kiss their ass and hand them my hard-earned tax dollars.
All the mouthpieces for these people keep trying to make this an immigration issue, and conviently ignore comments and questions about the real issue: ILLEGAL immigration. This country has already given amnesty to large numbers of illegals at least twice since the Reagan years, both to appease the Mexican government and to maintain the financial support of the well-heeled folks who hire illegals rather than pay a living wage to a legal American. As far as I'm concerned, that's at least two times too many.
Jerry
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Spider, I could not disagree with you more. The problem is not that the National Anthem is sung in Spanish or Polish or Czech. Even if the words are slightly altered to allow for rhyme and meter to carry through. The importance is in the message and not the tongue.
The Anthem is the joy, the rapture, the solidarity and the feeling of nationhood it imbues. It is the history we all prostrate ourselves before while (badly) singing at its altar. The issue here is not the tongue the prayer is spoken in. The issue here is that the Anthem is being misappropriated to political ends in the current immigration debate. The issue is that the words are being changed to to be divisive; altering the sentiment and the message for parochial and cheap political ends.
We should cherish as brothers those that pray at our National altar, language notwithstanding. We should also voice our outrage at those who would misappropriate our holy words; language notwithstanding.
We are, like it or not, an immigrant nation peopled by souls from all over. We do not (for reasons of misplaced political correctness and simple lack of civic effort) emphasize the "melting pot" of American society that used to be the case. That is unfortunate and it is a loss to the body politic of Civus Americanus.
That body, however, is informed by its feelings, its shared thoughts, its history and its symbols. That someone on the path to joining that body wants to share in its symbols (like the Anthem) even though they are not yet fully capable of doing it in English is irrelevant. Waving the Flag is a universal language. American soldiers are taught they are no longer black or white or brown; they are green. American citizens are red and white and blue and "American" is spoken in any language and by anyone who wishes to share my Nation's stories and take its messages to their heart. American patriotism is and had better be an open and inclusive tent.
If someone from Mexico or Belize or Cuba wants to learn the Anthem and the poems of this country's heritage and needs to say them in Spanish to fully incorporate the feelings and the pride to be gained from them he or she should be congratulated for standing at the altar and giving voice. He or she should be applauded for taking the first halting and difficult steps to becoming American. Those are the steps in to the melting pot. A generation later that man or woman's sons and daughters will step out the other side wearing the fashion of the day, voting without reservation and mumbling the Pledge of Allegiance second naturedly in English because they've just always known it that way.
The problem in today's news isn't that someone is recording the National Anthem in Spanish. The problem is that some jackass is recording it in Spanish and changing the words in an attempt to denigrate and diminish the country and the broad spectrum of people that is the American nation and they're doing so only to score points in the current immigration debate. It is our responsibility as Americans to recognize the important difference between the embryonic citizen still grasping for the right words to share our national prayers on the one hand and the opportunists on the other who would use those prayers to cheap effect. We need to welcome the former and make sure the hoary light of the latter's grandstanding allows him to be seen for the cheap huckster that he is.
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WTF is so hard to understand about that principle.
That it does not happen overnight.....
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Don,
You like to dig through the archives of history and find interesting things. Look back to a speech Teddy Roosevelt gave at the height of the wave of immigration that passed through Ellis Island. It speaks very clearly to this issue. I'll quote it here on Monday if you don't find it.
I believe in every word written on the base of the Statue of Liberty but the fact that those words were written in English is not lost on me.
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Don,
You like to dig through the archives of history and find interesting things. Look back to a speech Teddy Roosevelt gave at the height of the wave of immigration that passed through Ellis Island. It speaks very clearly to this issue. I'll quote it here on Monday if you don't find it.
I believe in every word written on the base of the Statue of Liberty but the fact that those words were written in English is not lost on me.
Spider, don't need to dig through the archives. TR is my favorite President. Not only did he amuse me he was brilliant, free thinking, politically adept (most of the time) and enjoyed having a good time himself. If he'd been alive when there'd been a good national road system he'd have ridden one of our bikes. I've got most everything he ever wrote and the majority of his speeches here.
The text you're referring to is often credited as being part of a 1907 speech given while he was still in office. It was actually part of a letter written to the American Defense Society three days before his death more than a decade later in January 1919. Couple of buddies have called asking if I'd heard Sean Hannity cannibalize the text recently. Fortunately I missed it. Can't stand conservatives who claim politiical conservatism for its own sake without thorough thought and context. I know why I'm generally conservative and the foundations of those opinions. Hannity is a hack generally laying it on for the audience. In any case.....
TR wrote the following:
"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
January 1919 letter to "The American Defense Society"
TR often wrote or spoke of "Americanization" and railed against "hyphenated Americans." It was all done, however, in the context of concern about a nation "brought to ruins" by a "tangle of squabbling nationalities." Consider the context though. WWI is being fought (or has just been fought, depending on when the words are being written) primarily over a tangle of squabbling nationalities. The American Civil War is not yet three generations past and Civil War veterans still populate the American landscape. WWI has indeed just changed the US from a debtor to a lendor nation but the US still in no way feels secure internationally (sound familiar?).
Also remember that TR lived in a time when "naturalists" and "preservation" meant going out and shooting and stuffing the best looking example of whatever animal you were interested in. In other words, times were different; even though some things might feel eerily familiar. That inscription on Lady Liberty you metioned is indeed in English. But the statue was built by a Frenchman and the vast majority of those soon to be "good Americans" who would sail past it, climb our shores, fight our wars, build our cities and our economy and populate industrial and modern America couldn't read it; yet.
They too learned the stories and the rules of their new country first in their native tongue. You have to crawl before you walk and walk before you run. Immigrants then as now had to work, live, survive, prosper and assimilate. It all took time. It all takes time now. TR asked of the immigrants their almost unadulterated devotion to their new country. He did not ask for their failure. And he was definitely a realist. Even TR allowed for enough time to gain a foothold and be a "good American."
Consider this, both in the context of the contemporary national discussion and in the context of TR's immigrant nation:
What greater gift to their new nation might a first generation immigrant, with his still halting but improving language skills, with his own ancestral memories still present, and his desire to succed in his new land and make a life here; what greater gift can he give to his new Nation than his progeny. That first generation immigrant (then or now) stays. He works. He participates. He even slowly loses a little of the old accent. And his children grow up seeing not where he stayed but where he chose to be. They grow up acclimated and acculturated. And their children after them. And so it goes. The "melting pot" is not a one year or a five year gig, it's a generational effort.
A shared language truly is an important step. In fact I believe the most important. But even TR suggested new immigrants have five years to get functional (in an interview to the KC Star in 1918).
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And that brothers and sisters of this great site is a true man of letters. Thanks Don. Not only for posting TR's words verbatim, but for your disertation accompanying it. I feel it is good that we finally have before us an issue which will engender a national debate. While some may feel there was a debate 6 years ago that was settled with the election of GW Bush, that debate was silenced when we had to come together as a nation and speak with one voice on 9/11/2001. So as we will see in the next few days with posts on this thread discussing the theme of the thread and your words as well. the need to have one's voice heard has not died, rather it has only been waiting for the right time to be heard. That time is now.
I had not heard that Hannity had cannabalized TR's word or it would have made me sick. Hack is a compliment in my book. TR was one of our greatest leaders and seeing his visage on Mt Rushmore my first time back in 86 inspired me to read more about him. I keep a copy of The History of the United States on my desk at my office and often open it to look for some indication of how our forebears felt about issues of their day similar to ours. People see what they want to see in the past and yet as the most astute student of history in my small world, you of all people understand the rhythms and patterns of society. Cause and effect. Given similar circumstances, people will react relatively the same even across the gulf of a century. So while reading history is enlightening, living it is the thing.This is indeed a landmark time in our nations history and for a lot more reasons than the debate on immigration. For a man such as yourself these must be heady times.
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I don't object to the anthem in Spanish, but, as I understand it, the changes are inciteful. If the illegals are going to thumb their nose at our flag, laws and anthem, they should do it from their side of the border. I was enraged when I saw the American Flag upside down with a Mexican flag on the same staff above the American Flag.
I find it disturbing that our "leaders" cannot come together on at least this one issue. One that is so basic to the foundation of this country as immigration.
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i look at it this way, much like the speech referenced above. if you want to come here there are leagel was to do so. but theres no reason for us to change the laws of this land for those that dont belong here in the first place because they dont like them......
a local radio station had some fun with this yesterday morning
http://drej.naitram.net/spanish_national_anthem.mp3
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Me, I need to go back to school and learn this language, seeing as I hear it all day! Doesn't matter where you live, we are now a country that needs to deal with this. And please we are not going to remove all these people from this land.. We don't have the funds for that! I wouldn't think that the politicians would try to make enemies of so many potential voters. And I would certainly imagine that given the opportunity they will be a very large voter turn-out. Our country is changing, and we need to stay with her, and continue to voice our opinions, before our voice is lost in the louder voice that may be here already... JMO
I better get to school, cause I don't understand any part of that language!! Shame on me, I maybe not getting to know new friends, only because I'm an English speaking AMERICAN......
My grandparents came from Italy, and pretty much abandoned their native tongue when they got here. When I was growing up and was old enough to learn from them, they wouldn't even teach me their language. You live in America, you will speak English is what I got from my grandfather. I loved him dearly , but that wasn't right.
Never been the sharpest knife in the draw, I didn't attempt to learn anything but English, and I suck at that.. THANK GOD FOR SPELL CHECK!
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MYCVO
I know you were being facetious, but in all seriousness, if you do decide to learn a 2nd language, learn the language of your grandfather. It is one of the world's most beautiful. I watched an old Italian movie with subtitles last night and listened to the words being spoken more than I read the ones written at the bottom of the screen. While I did not understand them, the tone, and pitch and emotion of each word was like music. I do not think English is the world's only language. It is the language of America however and I am an American, so I speak it. We ARE a nation of immigrants and much the better for it. I went riding today with two of my buddies. One's grandfather emigrated from Ireland and the other's from Italy. They talked of family gatherings where the history of their family is proudly discussed so the traditions of old will not be lost. BUT, neither of my friends hyphenates his nationality. They are Americans. If they wish to honor their ancestors, they will say 2nd generation American. You can either ask them where their grandparents were from or not. They do not push it in your face that they are something other than American. I like that. I wish more would do the same.
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Big B,
Won't debate you there bro! Me, I'm all about my country, and wouldn't want to live anywhere else, Period
The boys upstairs in their governmental seats have been on them for so long now, that if they tried to get up, the chair would need to be removed by a carpenter. All the while our borders have been freeways without tolls.
Tough to deal with all this while the entire population of citizens that are already Americans born and raised, are having their rights pushed around, for people that aren't supposed to be here. The boys in their seats making compromises of our rights to accommodate the masses of people that have come here without going thru whatever it is that they are supposed to go thru.. which I have no idea of..
Scary thing is we will be out of open space pretty soon with all the people flooding into this country. It's big but damn!! How many countries of people are we supposed to hold here?? And hell do we have to pay for all of them too??
Don't have any good answers to it, and it doesn't look like it will be solved anytime soon.
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I do agree that the flood of illegal immigrants into this country is a very real and serious problem, as our network of social services are strained to the absolute limit, and it won't take much more for them to collapse, at least in part. Witness the aftermath of Katrina...
I cannot possibly address the concerns or the reality which those of you who live in the bordering states face on a daily basis. Birmingham has a LOT of Hispanic peoples living and working here, but what I mostly see is them taking jobs that hardly anyone will take, no matter the wage...Chicken factories (of which there are gracious plenty in this state), crop pickers, day labor...I am quite certain that many of them are here illegally, but the majority are attempting to assimilate as best they can, given the circumstances of how they get here in the first place. In the late 1800's and early 1900's, there was no way for immigrants to get here other than accross the Atlantic...in a ship. They couldn't walk here, as our Hispanic neighbors are able to do. There was no real problem with Hispanic populations moving here at that time, as there was nothing for them to do in most of the Western States of the US...most of the Irish, Italians, Germans, and other European nationalities moved to our industrial areas, or large cities where work in factories or service were relatively plentiful. Same thing here...most of the people I know who build houses, own yard care services, eating establishments, large farms, etc, WANT these workers, not because they will work cheap, but because they, for the most part, will show up for work every day, give a full day....most of these same people have tried to hire others (I'm NOT pointing my finger at any particular race of people here), but become frustrated because they cannot depend on them to be on the job the next day. Some people will not work as a taster in a pie factory. In a global economy, when WE, as Americans demand through our purchasing power, cheaper goods and services, and the available workforce will not work for a competitive wage, a void is created, and filled by those who will allow them to remain competitive in order to stay in business. Textiles (again, a major employer in this state for many, many years) is a really good example...had an Hispanic workforce been more available 20 years ago in this state, perhaps almost ALL of our clothing would not be being produced in other countries....this includes the majority of the HD clothing some of us might purchase at the local dealership.
Like Two said, it will take TIME for these problems to be solved...learning the English language is no picnic because it is one of the most difficult languages in the world to learn. I shudder to think how long it would take me to learn Spanish if I was suddenly forced through economic necessity to move to a foreign country....5 years would be a conservative estimate, I think. No, we cannot afford to provide a safety net for illegal immigrants, and it is an issue which absolutly must be addressed. But, like it or not, predictions are that in some areas of the country, by the year 2020 or so, over 50% of the population will be Hispanic, and they will not all know the English language by that time...their kids will though.
The bastardizaton of ideas and philosophies by the likes of Rush Flemball and his right wing, foaming at the mouth counterparts, who do little, if any, research or verification of the words and venom the spew out of their mouth on a daily basis, in a word, make me sick. At the risk of being contraversial here, if you want to read a fully researched book debunking some of the things said by those mentioned above, pick up a copy of Al Franken's book...Lies, and he Lying Liars who tell them. I don't agree with everything he says, but there is no disputing the facts and figures he uses to support his statements. It may be an eye-opening experience for some. Others, when presented with ideas that do not fit into their view of the world, will be offended by some of the things he says...but at least it presents another side of the coin. And at least the book is laced with comedic relief, though at times it is an uncomfortable chuckle...
On another, and probably more controversial note...the biggest problem I have with those coming from Latin America is their attitude concerning having multiple children, based predominately on dogma espoused by a Church with leaders who are basing those ideas on 16th century concepts. People used to have 8 kids because odds were that half of them were never going to see adulthood...that is no longer the case. It is a case of quality of life...look at the world's starving and diseased children....and adults. Those issues will resolve themselves, again in time, through a basic Sociological principle....war, pestilance (sp), or famine. None of those are pleasant alternatives to voluntary managment of birth.
Bottom line...if peoples basic needs - food, shelter, and clothing - are not being met, they will take whatever measures necessary to meet those needs, even if it means running through the dead of night accross a basically invisible border. Fortunately, most of us here give little thought to those needs, otherwise we would not have the luxury of owning 35 thousand dollar motorcycles, cars of our choice, and having the time to think about the things written both here and above. Most of us worked our butts off to get here, and hopefully some of our brothers to the south will get here sooner than later.
Now our resources are strained to the limit, we are fighting another controversial "war" (which, by the way, was "won" by Clinton's Military), further draining resouces badly needed here at home, with no foreseeable end in sight. Bless the hearts of those who choose to be there, I fully support the men and women who are, but even they are being put into a situation which may be hopeless in the end.
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I wanted to make my posts leading up to 1,000 about something that matters greatly to me and all of you who have contributed to this thread have made that happen. I cannot express how it makes me feel to see people speak so freely and passionately about their feelings for the ideals of out great country. Thanks to all of you.
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the problem isnt just in the southern states, in my area of MA ther's lager populations of brazilian, some leagle and some illeagle, and there are many spanish speaking people as well, for quite some time we have had bilingual packaging in our stores, but i actuall saw a tri-lingual sign outside a buisness yesterday. my step-daughter has a girl in high-school with her that brags that her family is here illeagley. i just cant accept that english the international language for buisness could be pushed aside here in the US by a large population of people that shouldnt be here in the first place
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Come to Chicago we got it all. What fumes me the most is them saying we do the jobs that you won't. I can't even get my kids jobs at local resturants or other places because they are all taken by adult Illegal's. If I go up north to WI the same jobs are being done by teenagers. That is were the foundation begains in teaching them responsibility and if they do not like that type of work than stay in school and college. (yes I need spell check too)
My wife came over here from Germany and we did it the legal way. Lots of paper work and she did not speak much english at the time she learned it. We had some friends come over from Austria last week and they all spoke english. They were so proud to practice it here.
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Had a thought (it happens....) that sort of ties in here. Speaking to the original question that really centered around whether or not English is or a should be a required US "national language" and how much concession is made to Spanish there seemed little disagreement that those on the road to legal citizenship will end up exercising some basic English functionality. However, just to stir things up a bit, there is the area of that debate that often gets neatly sidestepped. Whether it be an immigration question or simply a language requirement and usage question; how is this "we all should speak English" party line adjusted when you (as I do) support eventual statehood for Puerto Rico?
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to read these post's in spanish press Here
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The way I see it is that everything that happens or dosn't happen with reguard to our government is directly related to the dollar bill. If it happens it was a good deal. If it does not happen it costs too much. So illegal immigration = a good deal for labor and is allowed to happen. To expand the immigration services to handle larger numbers of immigrants costs too much and therefore will not happen. And that creates a demand for labor and the only way the supply can fullfill the demand is illegaly.