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Author Topic: Harley 117 Kit  (Read 396112 times)

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HD Street Performance

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1650 on: October 03, 2021, 10:50:52 AM »

"I am looking at the T-Man 590PS-2 to do the job"

Any of the cams you mention, compression adjusted, have the potential to do what you want with the smoothest down low being the Harley cam. It also requires the highest compression and a point higher than Harley supplies in their kit. The Woods cam would be rougher down low and would struggle at 117 to pull before drop off to redline. At elevation I would be careful, dynamic compression is lower and so will be the low speed throttle response exaggerated by a cam that is a little too big to get to the goal. There is no "best" cam but I could rattle off a half dozen that come to mind. 130hp will not show up at 117" unless the throttle body and injectors are changed also. Best of luck.
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Justice

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1651 on: October 03, 2021, 11:54:32 AM »

"I am looking at the T-Man 590PS-2 to do the job"

Any of the cams you mention, compression adjusted, have the potential to do what you want with the smoothest down low being the Harley cam. It also requires the highest compression and a point higher than Harley supplies in their kit. The Woods cam would be rougher down low and would struggle at 117 to pull before drop off to redline. At elevation I would be careful, dynamic compression is lower and so will be the low speed throttle response exaggerated by a cam that is a little too big to get to the goal. There is no "best" cam but I could rattle off a half dozen that come to mind. 130hp will not show up at 117" unless the throttle body and injectors are changed also. Best of luck.

Thanks for the input. I am doing the SE 58mm TB and 5.3 injectors with the kit. I’m planning on sending out the heads and TB together as well to be blended. What half dozen cams come to mind for this output? It looks like I’ll end up around 9.2:1 dynamic compression, and 190 cranking pressure, if I have the heads milled for whatever cam setup works between 10.6-10.8 static cr.
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1652 on: October 03, 2021, 08:20:33 PM »

The question is best answered by the person that ports the heads. They should have a whole library of results and be able to suggest cams and the also equally important pipe.
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Justice

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1653 on: October 03, 2021, 09:56:48 PM »

The question is best answered by the person that ports the heads. They should have a whole library of results and be able to suggest cams and the also equally important pipe.

I used to live in Fife, WA. and I believe you’re right up the hill from there, right?
It appears that you do head services at your shop, correct? Do you dyno tune as well?
If I call you tomorrow could we discuss this option?

I also have a D&D Lo-Cat Breakout 2-1 exhaust in my possession as well. It’s a lot more restrictive than the LSR 2-1.
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1654 on: October 03, 2021, 10:39:22 PM »

Yes right up the hill from Fife.
Please give me a call tomorrow.
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Justice

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1655 on: October 04, 2021, 08:14:36 PM »

Yes right up the hill from Fife.
Please give me a call tomorrow.

Thank you Don, for a very nice, rational conversation today concerning my 117 build and questions. You were very helpful.
I really enjoy talking to people who are not only experienced and knowledgeable, but who are also willing to impart their wisdom, without too much biased emotional preference... this was the case today. I am very happy to have finally talked with you (considering I used to live right down the road from you, and I didn't even know it!) after all of these years of reading your forum posts on various sites. I'll be in touch soon for scheduling.
-Justin
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HighOnHD

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1656 on: October 08, 2021, 09:30:10 PM »

I don't live "right down the street" from Don and his associates, but down I-5 a little ways! Like you "Justice" I have also appreciated Don's posts and knowledge and have been waiting for my ESP to expire so that I can have my bike rebuilt right! I am already in the schedule, and feel fortunate as well as excited. Only managed to get approximately 58K on my bike at this point (this last year and a half of lockdown has taken it's toll), but was hoping to get a second engine rebuild covered on ESP. Not so fortunate in that respect, but have looked forward to actually getting the engine built with reliability and performance taken into consideration.
Good luck on your build as well.
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Justice

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1657 on: October 09, 2021, 11:09:26 PM »

So, I spoke with Tman Performance this week, initially about using their 590PS-2 cams in my build, but the conversation quickly turned to everything related to my build. Because I live and ride at 3000 ft elevation, I am fighting an uphill battle to get my corrected compression and cold cranking pressure in line with the performance that most people who live at sea-level enjoy automatically with a straight up build. Since I am learning a foreign language with all of this, I believe that I was told that I should utilize a high compression piston (their oversized 4.127” 5cc pistons) rather than take too much out of the heads to try to achieve most of my desired compression, and then zero deck the heads, port/polish/flow them, and install larger intake valves (2.10”) and better springs. They told me they would hone the cylinders I get with the kit for the oversized pistons, and that try to build to 200-205 cold cranking pressure, and that my elevation is going to require at least 11:1 static compression to get near that. I’m not sure I want to go to 11:1 compression, as I do want a street-able and reliable machine.
I’m figuring that if I’m running ~192 ccp at 3k elevation I’ll probably be just fine and happy, but to get there it looks like I will need to start with approximately 10.9:1 compression at a minimum, assuming my head volume is about 95cc to start.

The Harley guys tell me it’s better to mill the heads for compression, than it is to use HC pistons (and I’m not really sure that I understand why that is…) but if I get .032-.040 into the heads it doesn’t seem like there is still a lot of room for oversized valves, or a lot of meat left for reliability. I’d like to be able to ride on pump gas (91 octane with ethanol) without any issues. I’d like to be able to ride down to sea-level and not have to worry about low rpm manners in traffic, over-heating, and what quality gas is available.

I am trying to build a 130/130 relatively flat torque curve motor, but I want that motor to behave exceptionally well at low speeds, and be drivable. I’d love to avoid lurching, missing, popping, ticking, detonation, knocking, reversion, etc… I’m afraid if I take the compression to 11:1 or beyond I am just asking for all of that to be my reality.

I know I’m overthinking this, but I’m just trying to understand it, so that I can actually convey to those involved what I want to do, and make some well advised decisions.

Any input here would be SUPER helpful. Please and thank you!
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1658 on: October 10, 2021, 09:03:40 AM »

I don't see any issues.  Getting the compression up to a value 200-205ccp at 3000 ft, it's just math. Like TR I am not a fan of a lot of milling and to get to 11:1 I also would use a domed piston and just a light cut on the heads. You will need a combination of milling and a 5cc dome to reach your goal and the compression static needs to be 11.3:1. Zero deck will not happen unless a trial fit is done and the cylinders cut. The pistons will be down. The 590 will get you there as well.
Really the horsepower goal is simple and it is important to keep value added in the choices if saving a few bucks is desired.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 09:07:00 AM by HD Street Performance »
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Justice

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1659 on: October 10, 2021, 11:02:15 AM »

Thanks for the insight Don.

With the pistons being down, I'm using -1.5cc off of the Tman 5cc Piston Dome Volume to understand how much material we are looking at removing from the heads/cylinders.
It looks like a finished 90cc Cylinder Head Volume places me at 11.30 static compression, with .030 head gaskets.
This would require approximately 0.019" of material to be removed from the heads and cylinders to achieve 10.26:1 corrected compression and 200.4 ccp @ 3000 ft elevation.

I see people throwing around cylinder head volume numbers on forums like, "shoot for 92cc", and I realize that CVO 110 heads often come in at around 95cc, but sometimes differ.
Is running down to 90cc a problem, and if so, should I consider using a different piston:

Suburban/Mahle 10.7:1 6.6cc - 91.5cc CHV, .030 HG, 11.31:1 static, 10.27:1 corrected, 200.4 CCP @ 3K elevation
CP Carrillo 10.75:1 dished -3.3 piston (BHM117FT) - 93cc CHV, .030 HG, 11.31:1 static, 10.27:1 corrected, 200.4 CCP @ 3K elevation
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1660 on: October 10, 2021, 01:13:13 PM »

The mahle piston is what I use. All the particulars can be worked at the time of doing the work and doesnt require a lot of planning on your part. That is our job. The heads are 96cc nominal but get larger after a valve job. All easily adjusted as I mentioned.
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Justice

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1661 on: October 10, 2021, 03:45:18 PM »

All the particulars can be worked at the time of doing the work and doesnt require a lot of planning on your part. That is our job.

Perfect! That was what I was hoping you were going to tell me… since I clearly don’t understand all of the calculations involved…

I’m taking the bike down to Yellowstone Harley next weekend to drop it off. They’ll start working on it after November 1st. I’ll call you this week to discuss a little more detail and schedule the work. Thanks Don!
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Justice

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1662 on: October 12, 2021, 04:29:49 PM »

Anyone have any recommendations for decent looking and functional oil coolers for a 117 build?
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Justice

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Re: Harley 117 Kit
« Reply #1663 on: October 17, 2021, 10:57:20 AM »

Well, I dropped off my 110" FXSE CVO Pro Street Breakout yesterday at Yellowstone Harley Davidson to have the 117 Kit done over the winter.
Strangely, the weather turned yesterday, and it was 70 degrees when I got there (5-1/2 hours from where I live), so I warmed her up (video), and took her out for a interstate fast lane ride before I turned her in. One last ride on the 110!



I am going with the OilBud oil cooler, and beefing up the clutch a little, with a heavy duty HD spring for the stock slipper clutch.
I am replacing the kit's 259E Cams with the T-Man 590PS-2 Cams (43 degree Intake Closing ABDC).
HD Street Performance is going to do the head/cylinder work for the build, and YHD will do the tear down, assembly, and break-in/tuning.
We are building for about 10.75:1 static compression and 205 CCP at sea-level. I live and ride at 3,000 ft elevation, but I want to be able to take the bike anywhere without reliability or heat issues.
I may also have some painting done. There's a small dent in the left side of the gas tank, from the previous owner, and I am definitely having them repair that over the winter, but while I am at it, I think we might change the white on the tank, fender and OG cowl to something else... We shall see.
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