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Author Topic: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?  (Read 2559 times)

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Kuuner

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Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« on: August 08, 2022, 11:48:25 AM »

Not sure what happened to cause my dilemma but i'm hoping someone might have some substantive wisdom/input i can learn from.

Bike is 2016 CVO SG 110. Owned it since new, serviced regularly and have ESP. Took the bike in for 20K service last month to time it with my ride to Sturgis. Its all stock except it has Rhineharts full exhaust.

We were riding 80-90 for 8-10 hours per day (stopping for gas only). Weather was warm (107). On the 3rd day, just before Sturgis (Custer), i got a check engine light and bike started sputtering a bit. Pulled into a rest stop. I thought it was jut tired of being ridden hard (enter sarcasm here). I  started the bike back up after a rest and it idled badly...like it wanted to stall...really "lopey". It rode but i could hear a kind of chirping and it sputtered like it was a fuel problem for a few miles, intermittently. The check engine light went out.

My buddy told me to just ride it and quit being a snowflake but i didn't want to get caught on the side of the road with engine failure so i called a tow truck and they took me to Black Hills Harley where they diagnosed it with:

Bad Compensator
Failed Exhaust Lifter
Crank Position Sensor filled with metal debris

Told me they couldn't work on it due to the Sturgis rally so, i pulled out my credit cards and took the bike home on a UHaul. $3K later i'm home and ready to take it to my dealer for diagnosis and repair.

Could i have driven it without damage (I'm thinking this is rhetorical) or did i do the right thing stopping? I'm always the ass that gets the "Well...yeah...you would have been covered under warranty except you kept driving it" treatment.

How does this happen at 20K miles on a tried and true motor? What could i have done as an owner to prevent it from happening?

Was (is) there any telltale sign the dealer should have known with 20K mile service (I'm thinking no?)?
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2022, 12:08:56 PM »

How does this happen at 20K miles on a tried and true motor?

This is a common occurrence on the CVO 110. The lifters are a maintenance item, not ESP until they fail.
The compensator is the same.
Both are known issues and can only be prevented by preemptive changing. The lifter can take out an engine case, due to lifter bore damage, and cause a lot of collateral damage if the engine is not thoroughly cleaned including the oil pan and cooler. A typical replacement and cam chest cleaning, warranty authorized partial repair, will likely fail later due to contamination in the system.
The compensator is just a wear item and not related to the other.
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rayson56

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2022, 08:30:20 PM »

So have you had your local shop verify the diagnosis yet??
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Kuuner

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2022, 08:34:19 PM »

Still an unanswered question...yeah...how does that happen at 20K miles on a stock motor, not abused and well taken care of (I don't floor it in 6th gear at 1,100 RPM's kind of care).

I'm assuming (hoping) the lifters that are failing, but have not yet failed (imploded my motor), will be covered under my ESP. Hoping the same for the compensator. Talked to my dealer today, assuming my warranty covers a rebuild, i've asked them to upgrade the lifters to S&S and, upgrade anything else that might be more prone to failure in stock form.

Besides lifters, anything else to replace/change while in there to extend the life of this motor?
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Kuuner

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2022, 08:37:15 PM »

So have you had your local shop verify the diagnosis yet??

Dropped it off with my local shop today (Took two days of hard driving to get back to Nor Cal from Sturgis). They are going to open it up and check it out and confirm the diagnosis from Black Hills Harley and let me know. They know my bike as they've serviced it since new and just did the 20K mile service on it one week before i left for Sturgis.
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Ironhorse

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2022, 08:55:31 PM »

Dropped it off with my local shop today (Took two days of hard driving to get back to Nor Cal from Sturgis). They are going to open it up and check it out and confirm the diagnosis from Black Hills Harley and let me know. They know my bike as they've serviced it since new and just did the 20K mile service on it one week before i left for Sturgis.

Where are you in NorCal?
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Para Bellum

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2022, 02:27:17 AM »

How does this happen at 20K miles on a tried and true motor?

Was (is) there any telltale sign the dealer should have known with 20K mile service (I'm thinking no?)?
The CVO 110 is more of a "tried and failed."  110 lifters have been failing since the first ones in '07.  Your dealer should have known just from being in the business.  Thousands of vacations have been ruined exactly the way yours was, and hundreds of thousands of $$ have been spent on hotels, rental cars, and transportation fees because of a blown engine. 

It's possible they did know and didn't tell you, especially if they're a busy dealer and know they wouldn't make much off a lifter replacement.  A less-cynical explanation is, the high staff turnover at dealers means there's no historical knowledge.

Either way, the HD CEO at that time was famous for getting every single part made by the lowest-of-the-low bidder, so he could cut costs while charging premium prices.  HD made boat-loads of money and his stock options were worth $500 million during his time.

Because of the metal shavings in the oil system, the only reliable fix is a replacement engine.  The half-ass "clean-out" jobs won't do it.  Then, change lifters every 20K miles if you keep stock valve springs.  You should read through the history in this section (TC) about some of the remedial measures available.
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JCZ

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2022, 09:38:30 AM »

I would have stopped and called HOG road service, also!  I'm of the mind set that I don't want to cause any more damage than what's been done.

On my 2010 CVO Street Glide the MoCo replaced the motor at 30k miles, under warranty.  On the flip side, my 2013 CVO Ultra Classic with 71,000 miles has been the most reliable Harley that I've ever owned (completely stock except the Fulsac header, cores and a tuner.  I just keep riding it.  And more than a few people on this forum have accused me of being an aggressive  rider.   I've rode across Death Valley when it was 118F and I've rode in Colorado at 18F and like a Timex, it just keeps on running.
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Ironhorse

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2022, 01:36:50 PM »

The CVO 110 is more of a "tried and failed." 

Now that's a great quote.  I'm so glad I got the last of the CVO 103s. The only time the lifters were changed was when Jim at Metal Dragon rebuilt the engine at 84K miles.
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2022, 08:54:09 PM »

If the shop fixes it you are golden. If it lost lifter bearings that is a complete out of frame overhaul.
The S&S lifters (delphi) are ok. Morel or Johnsons better.

Besides lifters, anything else to replace/change while in there to extend the life of this motor

Valve springs and camshaft.
Your shop will be able to provide recommendations specifically.
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phato1

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2022, 07:13:14 AM »

Still an unanswered question...yeah...how does that happen at 20K miles on a stock motor, not abused and well taken care of (I don't floor it in 6th gear at 1,100 RPM's kind of care).

That question has been asked and answered many times over the years. HD's answer = "they all do that"

[/quote]I'm assuming (hoping) the lifters that are failing, but have not yet failed (imploded my motor), will be covered under my ESP. Hoping the same for the compensator. Talked to my dealer today, assuming my warranty covers a rebuild, i've asked them to upgrade the lifters to S&S and, upgrade anything else that might be more prone to failure in stock form.[/quote]

With metal shavings on the CPS I fear you may need a whole lot more than new lifters, an oil change and cleaning the oil pan which might be the extent of the ESP authorized repair.

[/quote]Besides lifters, anything else to replace/change while in there to extend the life of this motor?[/quote]

To truly extend the life of the 110 is going to take thousands of dollars to rebuild/upgrade it - or just make a coffee table out of it and install a complete  aftermarket engine..

Unfortunately even if in the future you change lifters every 15 -20 thousand miles there's no way to know when your next vacation will be ruined. This may all sound like sour grapes - and perhaps it is - but I had to many vacations interrupted by my 110 until it was 1 vacation to many and I parted ways with it.

 
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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2022, 10:42:27 AM »

How does this happen at 20K miles on a tried and true motor?

This is a common occurrence on the CVO 110. The lifters are a maintenance item, not ESP until they fail.
The compensator is the same.
Both are known issues and can only be prevented by preemptive changing. The lifter can take out an engine case, due to lifter bore damage, and cause a lot of collateral damage if the engine is not thoroughly cleaned including the oil pan and cooler. A typical replacement and cam chest cleaning, warranty authorized partial repair, will likely fail later due to contamination in the system.
The compensator is just a wear item and not related to the other.
I have an opportunity to buy a 2011 CVO road glide ultra with 20,000 miles. With this lifter issue should I just skip it and look at 103 bike? Is there a fix to not have to change lifters every 15,000 miles?
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2022, 12:15:14 PM »

There are two possible approaches to the lifter issue, one is a partial repair, with hit or miss results or a complete out of frame overhaul with aftermarket parts, upgrades, and full oil system cleaning as a proper and guaranteed solution. Do the math and decide. Realize that the partial repair may require rework at a later date.
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Para Bellum

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2022, 05:17:24 PM »

I have an opportunity to buy a 2011 CVO road glide ultra with 20,000 miles. With this lifter issue should I just skip it and look at 103 bike? Is there a fix to not have to change lifters every 15,000 miles?
Here's my understanding of the lifter problem and some possible solutions in the 110 (I'm leaving out some details so this doesn't turn into a book).  HDSP's post above is about OP's current dilemma:

The stock "school bus" cam used in the CVO 110 requires high-pressure valve springs to keep control of the valves.  That high pressure causes lots of stress on the lifters, which tend to crumble, often at low mileage like 20K to 40K (I've known one CVO 110 that went bad at 8K, and one made it to 74K before grenading, but that's the highest mileage I'm personally aware of).

There are two solutions.  The temporary version is to replace lifters every ~20K and hope they don't blow before the next change-out.

The more permanent fix is to put in a cam that doesn't require such high-pressure valve springs, new lower pressure valve springs, and replace the old lifters with new and stronger ones.  Maybe others can sound off about their experience with this.

HTH
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Bad luck? Bad Service? Bad Owner?
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2022, 09:24:57 AM »

OK I am tired of the lack of data. Eyes go to valve springs. The stock springs are reasonable for hydraulic roller lifter use and being duals with damper offer a bit of protection from a spring failure totally ruining an engine. See attachments 157# seat 404# @.550 lift, rate 450.

That "school bus cam" is closer to the root cause than suggested. Add a heavy valve train (weight including springs, retainers & valves) then higher rate springs are needed to control the whole mess. They still do a poor job at that, case and point valve loft that can be heard at 2500-2700 rpm. When you hear valves lofting there is lash and rollers are coming out of contact with the lobes. With loose pin fit the lifter can slightly turn, not good. Pole vault style 3/8" thin wall pushrods aren't helping either.

How can the stock CVO110 crank 220psi (ACRs disconnected) per service manual? It has 9.3:1 compression static and a 30° deg ABDC intake close at .053. Calculated CCP is 183psi! Better lifters needed? They are hydraulic rollers, not solids. They have limits, even the best of them.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2022, 09:36:01 AM by HD Street Performance »
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