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[1Man1God]

Ok here I am, about 3 days from my "window for ordering" from JP Cycles, and I still haven't made up my mind. One thing I have decided is I'm gonna order the tuner and start out with my Stock setup. (2010 FLSTSE) I've been doing my reading homework and correct me if I'm wrong, TTS users, I would begin with either PQ 176-002 or MV 176-002 calibration maps. Or possibly one of you fine gentlemen have a map I could start with?

[1Man1God]

Initially, my goal would be just to lower the temperature. I'm sorry but that 110 cu. In. Just runs too hot for my liking, in our 103 degree Texas heat. Then I've gotta decide just how fast I wanna go. Do I go with the all out Muscle-Bike? ( 2 into 1 race pipes & A/C ). Or something more stylish. ( 2 into 2 RAD dials ). Cause this is what I do. I am fortunate enough to have a good job that allows me to vacation trip alot!
    The one thing that I've left out.... I've already drilled and punched out the honeycomb lookin 'thingamajiggers' in my baffles. My buddies couldn't hear my bike and it scared them.

[hdnik]

IMHO it would be a harder choice if you asked TTS or SEPST, but given the choices you have stated... TTS Mastertune is an absolute no brainer. I'd be surprised... no shocked if you heard anything else here.

BTW... WHAT OTHER MODS ARE YOU DOING

[1Man1God]

I had to trade my FLHTCU in to get the SE. For now the SE is gonna be my road bike so it's gotta stay reliable till I get another FLH. I'm thinking D&D 2 into 1 and a Hypercharger for now. Keep it simple. Although there's some things I don't like about the Fat Cats. I'm not real sure about the ground clearance. ( I like the Twisties ) 
   But after I get me another road bike. I can see myself going deeper into this with Pistons, Cams, Maybe a            ( Thrill button ) with laughing gas. Make a toy out of it.    Like my old Shovel, I got so much tied up in that one, I can't back out of it now. I really believe that the Convertible is gonna be a collector some day. Like havin' an old Vet in the garage. "Only out on sunny Sunday afternoons."

[BADBAGG]

TTS all the way........

[SERK3]

I have been running the Thundermax with Auto Tune for well over a year and really like, You can feel and hear it make the changes that are needed and it cooled the bike down quite a bit which is what i was after more than anything.

My vote is the TM but its like oil and tires, Everyone likes something different. 

[heatseeker]

I would have to say that the tts is much better and tune it yourself.

[SERK3]

You can tune the Thunder Max yourself also.

[RCFlyer]

I have a ThunderMax on a FLSTSE and I'm very happy with it. I don't have any good tuners around here, so I do it myself. The base maps that come with the software are a good starting point. The autotune takes over from there. It does not, however adjust the timing automatically, only the AFR. I plan on putting in a Feuling 574 cam soon and like the fact that I can make changes myself. I've never used the TTS, but the guys on this board swear by it also. The Tmax is more expensive too. I guess it's just a matter of personal taste. Good luck. BTW, my bike runs a lot cooler since I changed the tune and mufflers.

[TimBone]

TTS all the way........

Ditto!

[Lever]

TTS also    btw when i called D&D  they read me the disclaimer on the fatcat for our bikes  said  pipes  are going scrape the ground due to the low clearance  of the flstse if your looking for a good 2into1  pipe hands down vance and hines pro pipe #17547 msrp599.00   fits great on the convertible  and  the chrome is good
now there a 2nd choice  from i have seen in parts book the 07-10 softail hertitage  has the same  headpipe intermedite pipe as our convertible  so just maybe  thunder header's p#1057 and 1127 heatshields  will work however i would be worried  about ground clearance also

[1Man1God]

Thanks everyone,
I went with TTS Mastertune and D&D Boarzilla 2 into 1 mainly because of the Upswept pipe for cornering. I think it'll work. I very seldom use the bags anyway. But if it's a problem, I'll try to build a heatshield for the back corner of the right saddlebag.
               Thanks again for your opinions. 

[Texas 103]

Thanks everyone,
I went with TTS Mastertune and D&D Boarzilla 2 into 1 mainly because of the Upswept pipe for cornering. I think it'll work. I very seldom use the bags anyway. But if it's a problem, I'll try to build a heatshield for the back corner of the right saddlebag.
               Thanks again for your opinions. 

Good choice..One of the issues I had with a T-MAX is if you are on the road and have a problem, the could use that as a reason not to look at it ....Just sayin..     

[hdnik]

Wise choice!

[SERK3]

Good choice..One of the issues I had with a T-MAX is if you are on the road and have a problem, the could use that as a reason not to look at it ....Just sayin..     

Thats why i take the Power Commander with me when i'm on the road.

[guppytrash]

I would have to say that the tts is much better and tune it yourself.

  Have you had experience with any other tuner?  Do you know anything about the thundermax with autotune?

This appears to be a "jump on the band wagon" deduction.  Correct me if I am wrong.

Good choice..One of the issues I had with a T-MAX is if you are on the road and have a problem, they could use that as a reason not to look at it ....Just sayin..     

Could use the TTS the same way, it is not any more an HD product than the T-MAX. 

I am not going to tell you that one is better than the other because I would not do that unless I had personal experience with each tuner.
I can tell you that I have the SSERT and I have been completely disappointed in my goal to lower the temps.  My next move is the T-max with autotune.
Sometimes you need to make your own deductions.
  (Keep in mind my goal - to lower my engine temps).
There is very heated thread here were someone boasts how the PC-V with autotune is best.  Read it, I have several times. 
My deductions:  1.This site heavily supports the TTS.    2. There are several (in the minority) who responded that were current users of the PC-V/auto-tune.  All reported cooler temps and completely satisfied with the PC-V.  3. The T-MAX was still not available at the time for TBW.
Next:  I started a thread "Whats your highest oil temp?"
My deductions:  1. several with tuners TTS, SSERT reporting high oil temps. 260 to 300 degrees  2. We all tuned are bikes in an effort to cool the temps...along with A/C, exhaust, de-cat...
it doesn't appear to me that it works. 
Next the TBW T-MAX auto-tune:  Random threads here and at other web sites
My deductions:  1. Again the actual owners/users seem to be getting the lower temps. 

I am throwing this out there not to claim that I have the answers or that I am correct, but more as bait.  ANY users of the "CURRENT" TBW T-MAX that are not happy.
 





 
 

[Steve Cole]

You can make the bike run cooler with any of the tuners. Since you have a SSERT already why no just richen it up with it to cool the temps?

[guppytrash]

You can make the bike run cooler with any of the tuners. Since you have a SSERT already why no just richen it up with it to cool the temps?

Well Steve that has been my goal without success.
 I have $300 already in a dyno tune that did not yield any significant cooling.  Now I do believe I have found a guy that has the ability to use my SSERT to properly tune my bike.  He charges $500. and he uses the ?twin scan? twin tech? (not sure, but I know you know what I am talking about) to plug wide band sensors in place of the factory O2 sensors to use while making adjustments.  From what I have read this is the proper way to get it done vs. Sniffing the tailpipe with a 2-1-2 exhaust.
Sooo $800 plus the price of the SSERT I might be were I want to be...
However I do believe and correct me if I am wrong I will still be limited to an AFR of no richer than 14.2  by stock O2 sensors in closed loop.  

Now if I do decide to change cams or pipes down the road I am on the hook for another $500.

So now the option of the Thundermax- auto -tune for $850 seems like it is more capable and much cheaper for the long haul.  It uses "as advertised" wide band O2 sensors, I know you don't agree that they are "wide band" but thats what I am going to call them because that is what they call them and rather than get hung up on the name my understanding is they have the ability to adjust AFR's in closed loop much richer than the stock HD O2 sensor.  

Continuous tuning the AFR's without limitations of the stock O2 sensor (14.2 in closed loop) seems to be working for those who are using the auto-tune.  Now I can still make changes to my bike download a base map and let the auto-tune do the rest.

So to sum it up for me the advantages I see are this:  1. Continuous tuning with auto-tune.  2. O2 sensors with a much wider AFR range capability. (not limited to 14.2 in closed loop)
3. Future changes don't lead me chasing down a base map or spending another $500. for a dyno tune.

That being said if someone had a map for my SSERT that made it start better, run cooler, and gave me 40mpg or better I would probably save myself $850.


  



  

[kraut]

do us a favour - try and report 

I don't believe in those "autotune" gimmicks. If it were this easy, everybody had them and we had one topic less to discuss ...

[guppytrash]

do us a favour - try and report  

I don't believe in those "autotune" gimmicks. If it were this easy, everybody had them and we had one topic less to discuss ...

Kraut I will be happy to report but I am still a couple of weeks away.  When I do report it will be unbiased and direct if it is crap I will tell you, if I think it is great I will tell you!

Honestly it sounds like you have already made up your mind.  

This is always a touchy subject at CVO harley.  

One last comment if you are driving a modern fuel injected car and you change the air filter and exhaust you don't need to go buy a tuner and take it to a dyno.  Ever wonder why?

  

[1Man1God]

First if all, I started this thread just to help me make a decision on which Tuner and exhaust system to buy. I was wanting some different opinions to help me make my decision. And for those opinions, I'm grateful. See I'm probably the dumbest person on this forum when it comes to the Subject of Tuning. I'm not looking for my bike to be the fastest on the street. But I do like the idea of being able to bypass the dyno-techs when I make a change to my bike, and still be reasonably certain I can get my bike to not run so lean. I'm sure that both systems would do that for me. For me the decision came down to value. I could buy a tuner that I could use on both mine and my wifes bike for 600 n change. Or buy one that I could use on only 1 bike for 900. I chose the TTS For that reason. I'm not looking to be a Tuner Whiz. I just want something to change the AFR so it doesn't run so hot and from talking with peeps on this forum I believe there's enough support for the TTS that even a dummy like me can work thru the Tuning Process and be more than happy with it. I'm truly grateful for that support. I DIDN'T MEAN TO START AN ARGUMENT about which system trumps the other. Thanks Steve, Thanks Mr. Wizzard, Thanks Doc1

[guppytrash]

1Man
No argument from me.  And if I had started with what you have (the TTS) I probably would not be looking at thundermax right now.  You have a capable tuner with lots of support. 
For some reason the mention of an auto tune system here seems to ruffle feathers. 
All I want to know is if the T-Max is as capable as advertised, then it may be a better choice for me.  I have been monitoring people using the current version and have not seen to many negatives.  I know the DTE (distance to empty) is not working right now with T-max so I am waiting to buy until that is resolved. 

 
As Steve pointed out, in the right hands, I am sure I could achieve my goal with my current SSERT.
I still do not know if the HD O2 sensors are limited to 14.2 AFR in closed loop. 
     



 

[kraut]

@Guppytrash:

Honestly it sounds like you have already made up your mind. 

This is always a touchy subject at CVO harley.   

One last comment if you are driving a modern fuel injected car and you change the air filter and exhaust you don't need to go buy a tuner and take it to a dyno.  Ever wonder why?

in a way I have already made up my mind indeed - I like what the SESPT autotune did for my ride, especially after very unhappy experiences with the old SERT. But I also know it's shortcomings as it only suggests changes to the AFR tables so you still need someone knowing his job to change timing. So the autotune only does let's call it half of the job 

[Steve Cole]

Tuning with the stock O2 sensors is not limited to 14.2 which I believe to be your question. While I know the SESPT is not as accurate as it could be since you already have it I just hate to see people waste more money when not needed. The thing that you are trying to do with the system is to make the ECM happy. In any event the ECM wins when it comes to tuning the bike in closed loop. It has always been my opinion that we need to let the ECM win, see the results then tell the ECM to do something different. This keeps the ECM happy and the outcome where the tuner wants it.

First thing you need to do is get the VE tables accurately set up. The limit to do this with the factory O2 in closed loop is ~ 14.2. So if you set it up and then let it tune in at 14.2 and get the VE's all taken care of. We can then just simply adjust the AFR table to the desired level and the ECM will do just that. So tune away until it's corrected itself at 14.2 then go back and change the AFR to what you beleive you want. If its idle heat or what just check to see where that area is then adjust those areas to a richer mixture and see if it does what you want. It's just going to take you some trial and error to get there as the SESPT doesn't show you what's going on when adjustments are being made.

[guppytrash]

Steve

Thanks I do greatly appreciate your help and I do hate to waste money.
The first problem is I have very little... OK NO patience!
Second I have the VE tables set up via the HD shop that did my tune.  How accurate I will never know?  I did ask and watch them adjust the AFR table below 1500rpm to try and richen for a cooler idle.  Now I would guess that this is why my bike does not start all that well.
Bottom line is I don't think the SESPT is worth another $500 investment to get it dyno tuned again.
Like I said earlier if I had gone with the TTS set-up from Fullsac I probably would not be involved in this conversation.
I am going to try the T-max with the auto-tune.

Thanks
gt

[DtyHarry]

According to my mechanic the new zippers-thundermax is vastly superior to the TTS - (1) it does not require a dyno tune, (2) it automatically adjusts to different climate/altitude conditions, and (3) allows you to change other things later, like cams, w/o paying for another dyno tune, and (4) at present is the most advanced product to use - albeit it is more $$ the lack of a need for a dyno tune makes it about the same price wise.

[hdnik]

I think I'm way late into this, but as i understand it Guppy already has a SEPST? If so then you should just look for a good technition who knows how to tune it. Why spend all the money on a new computer gizmo.

After the research I chose the VH dresser duals, Klocker Works revolver cans, SEPST, and Heavy Breather. Also find a really good "TUNER"... someone who really knows what he's doing. The parts alone with canned map brought me to 83.01 / 100.33

For $190 bucks in dyno labor I got good gains in HP (8hp) and torque (11#) totals 91.1 / 111.31 compare to using just the canned maps available. ... plus now the max torque is all in the 2500-4000 range... right where I live.

Also temps in rear cylinder dropped almost 40 degrees (front less) using a Laser tester on the barrel.

Maybe not holy chit stats but the bike runs like a top!! Plus they fined tuned the start maps in the SEPST so cold starts are no issue

Here the dyno sheet before and after the dyno time.... no parts - just labour

[DtyHarry]

Looks good but the Zipper-Thundermax does state no dyno needed... I guess the only real test would be to use the Zipper and then get a dyno to see if there was any improvement.

[Midnight Rider]

IF you have a GOOD basemap to start with, the Thundermax can compensate for SMALL changes to the engine.  If you start putting cams in, increasing compression, changing pistons, doing headwork, etc.  ALL BETS ARE OFF.  Do not believe all that you read about the Thundermax...some of it is BS.  Support for the T-max is woefully lacking.  Changing the entire ECM out on your bike gives HD a great excuse to blame all things that might happen to the bike on the T-max.  If you are not concerned about a warranty, that's not an issue.  If you have trouble on the road, it will be a big issue.

TTS is popular here for one good reason:  It works.  It also has good support from several sources.  Nobody is saying that other tuners do NOT work, only that there are some choices that have more support, are easier to operate, and will not set off big red flags if the bike has to go to a dealer for some reason.

I have not read one single report of anyone having oil temps in the 275 degree + range...certainly not 300 degrees.

In the end,  it's the individual's decision...but don't be fooled by those claims that system XYZ "autotunes".

[DtyHarry]

Thanks - the claimed "auto tune" feature does sound a little fishy and I am very concerned about the warranty aspect of my bike - its a 2013 CVO RG. Guess I'll try the TTS... do you really need a dyno with this?

[3mcam]

I have had several tuners. Power Commander, TTS and T-Max. After several thousand dollars in tuners and dyno tunes I would recommend the T-Max with Auto Tuner. Easy of use and simplicity of operation after engine mods, by far have exceeded my expectations. I don't have any problems or complaints about the T-max with auto tuner. And my DTE still works as it did before. Engine has not exceeded 240 degrees it the heat and humidity of South Carolina. Just make sure your head pipe has the correct O2 bungs for the Auto Tuner's O2 Sensors.

[DtyHarry]

No dyno needed on the Thundermax?

[3mcam]

Only if you wish to see numbers, but no not needed.

[DtyHarry]

Ok, thanks... my hesitation in using the Thundermax, however, is warranty issues as its effectively a complete replacement of your original ECM system

[3mcam]

I understand. I waited until by warranty had expired before I did any mods.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

According to my mechanic the new zippers-thundermax is vastly superior to the TTS - (1) it does not require a dyno tune, (2) it automatically adjusts to different climate/altitude conditions, and (3) allows you to change other things later, like cams, w/o paying for another dyno tune, and (4) at present is the most advanced product to use - albeit it is more $$ the lack of a need for a dyno tune makes it about the same price wise.

TTS is not an ECM, like that Tmax is.  So, the PROPER comparison should be Tmax-vs-Delphi.  Dude, that Tmax sucks compared to the Delphi for sure.  The Delphi is a whole nother generation above the TMax.  The TMax is Alphi N and the Delphi is Speed density.  Here is one for you so you know...  the Delphi with ION sensing pulls timing when the engine gets crap gas or starts to ping...  no such thing with a TMax.  ANd... TMax is NOT closed loop fuel control.  TMax allows you to build a new map out of what has been seen by the TMax, it is NOT instantaneous.  TMax does not even use a MAP sensor so it has NO idea of how much load is on the engine.  Alpha-N is WAY past its prime... like a EFI on an 87 Chevy.  It uses throttle position and rpm.  That is IT!  No map signal for loading of the engine...  TMax cannot tell if it is uphill or down hill, etc.

Zippers no longer messes with a TMax either.... or at some point they won't... as stated by Zippers at the last Cinci Expo... it is going back to Thunderheart at some point.

Lastly...  your 'indy' doesn't have a Dyno, I bet, doesn't know how to tune, and a TMax USED to be a way out for guys like this.  There is no way in Heck, I would swap out a DBW Delphi ECM for a TMax... no way.

TTS, SEPST, Direct Link, etc are tools to flash the DELPHI ECM, nothing more.

ANd to the other dude... if you are seeing 300* oil temps... wow!  That bike has issues.  I see hardly ever see any 300* Head temps.  And that is on a 120r.  That 120r is tuned to run quite a bit of closed loop, too.  That 14.4 stuff works FINE.  It is the guy working the dyno.....

[Midnight Rider]

Ok, thanks... my hesitation in using the Thundermax, however, is warranty issues as its effectively a complete replacement of your original ECM system

Just to clear things up a bit....ANY changes to the ECM can technically void the warranty. A lot is dependent on which dealer you take the bike to if there are serious engine problems.  However, the odds are just about 100% that if you take your bike into a dealer and have a Tmax installed, and your engine has some real issues, the MOCO will definitely try to blame it on the Tmax, as you have replaced the entire operating system (in essence) for engine management.  With a device like the TTS, SEPRT, PV, Direct Link, etc, it would be more difficult for them to deny warranty coverage, particularly if all you've done is change the exhaust system and load a new map, whether a canned map or one from a Dyno tune.  In addition, the TTS allows you to upload your stock map from the ECM BEFORE any other changes are made, so you've always got that to fall back on...other tuners may allow that as well, but the one I know will do so is the TTS.  The "canned" map provided by Fullsac for the TTS is not just something that's a "best guess"...many, many hours have been spent on a Dyno perfecting the map you get with their exhaust system, and IMO, it's pretty damn close to perfect.  Again, I'm not saying Fullsac and TTS is the Buddha/Nirvana of all systems, just that it works.

Having said all that, you are 100% more likely to have engine problems due to poor manufacturing practices, inferior parts, and poor assembly than from changing the exhaust system and either a canned map or Dyno tune from a COMPETENT tuner.  There are hundreds of posts here on oil temps, engine heat, blah, blah, blah.  I have yet to hear of an engine failure due to excessive oil temperatures, even on a bone stock motor.  Oil temps on a 110 of 265 degrees are not uncommon, in some cases a bit more.  300 degrees would give me reason to be concerned.  BUT, even then, if you use a good synthetic oil, it will not break down at those temps.  Removing the catalytic converter from the exhaust manifold will definitely cool the perceived heat felt by the rider, and a good tune will help a bit as well.  But you're still sitting on top of a 110 CI air cooled motor with the rear exhaust pipe inches away from your thigh.  It's gonna' be hot.  When it's 95 degrees outside, you're sitting in traffic on black tarmac, it's going to be hotter than Hades (some people call it Hell, I call it Hades...mmmmmmm).  Those situations can sometimes not be avoided, so we just have to "bow up" as we say down here...

[DtyHarry]

Thanks Again... yep, sitting Las Vegas traffic a couple of weeks ago with 100 plus degree temps with my stock exhaust on the CVO was extremely hot..

[grc]

Thanks - the claimed "auto tune" feature does sound a little fishy and I am very concerned about the warranty aspect of my bike - its a 2013 CVO RG. Guess I'll try the TTS... do you really need a dyno with this?

What do you intend to do other than a tune?  If you are thinking of the Fullsac Stage 1 package for instance (pipes, muffler cores, TTS with map), then I'd say based on the many positive reviews on the site that the odds are you wouldn't need a full dyno tune for a good outcome.  There are many satisfied people running the map supplied by Steve at Fullsac.  Might it be possible for a truly good tuner to tweak that map for a little better result on your particular bike?  Yes, but then you need to ask yourself how much you want to spend for some numbers on a chart that may not translate to a better riding experience.  And if you are so inclined and reasonably computer savvy, you can actually do your own data collection and map tweaking with the TTS software (they call it V-Tune).

As for the bogus statements about the T-Max by your mechanic, I hope you realize that opinions like his are somewhat like azzholes; we all have one.  His comment about the T-Max adjusting for altitude and climate made me fall off my chair laughing.  T-Max is one of the LEAST sophisticated products on the market, and is light years behind the stock Delphi engine management system.  They don't even utilize all the sensor data the stock system uses.  To me the entire T-Max deal is proof that a good marketing plan along with misleading claims can take any product of dubious value and make it successful in today's marketplace.  

JMHO - Jerry    (Yes, I have an opinion and have also been known to be an azzhole)

[Jui]

TTS does not require a dyno, as you can do real "field" data recording and TTS VTUNE SW calculates the matching maps for your riding profile. Dyno also covers "non real life" operation areas, but who cares if you never operate your bike under such conditions.
However, you need to spend some effort on TTS but it's worth it as you will get the perfect matching mapping for you & your bike.
Just need a Laptop connected for ca. 3 rides each 45 Minutes in different riding conditions (uphill/ downhill, highway, city).

But read the f***ing manual ;-)

Jui

[Max Headflow]

TTS is not an ECM, like that Tmax is.  So, the PROPER comparison should be Tmax-vs-Delphi.  Dude, that Tmax sucks compared to the Delphi for sure.  The Delphi is a whole nother generation above the TMax.  The TMax is Alphi N and the Delphi is Speed density.  Here is one for you so you know...  the Delphi with ION sensing pulls timing when the engine gets crap gas or starts to ping...  no such thing with a TMax.  ANd... TMax is NOT closed loop fuel control.  TMax allows you to build a new map out of what has been seen by the TMax, it is NOT instantaneous.  TMax does not even use a MAP sensor so it has NO idea of how much load is on the engine.  Alpha-N is WAY past its prime... like a EFI on an 87 Chevy.  It uses throttle position and rpm.  That is IT!  No map signal for loading of the engine...  TMax cannot tell if it is uphill or down hill, etc.

Zippers no longer messes with a TMax either.... or at some point they won't... as stated by Zippers at the last Cinci Expo... it is going back to Thunderheart at some point.

Lastly...  your 'indy' doesn't have a Dyno, I bet, doesn't know how to tune, and a TMax USED to be a way out for guys like this.  There is no way in Heck, I would swap out a DBW Delphi ECM for a TMax... no way.

TTS, SEPST, Direct Link, etc are tools to flash the DELPHI ECM, nothing more.

ANd to the other dude... if you are seeing 300* oil temps... wow!  That bike has issues.  I see hardly ever see any 300* Head temps.  And that is on a 120r.  That 120r is tuned to run quite a bit of closed loop, too.  That 14.4 stuff works FINE.  It is the guy working the dyno.....

John,

You really need to try a tmax..It might teach you something like how to tune a bike..

Max

[Rio]

What do you intend to do other than a tune?  If you are thinking of the Fullsac Stage 1 package for instance (pipes, muffler cores, TTS with map), then I'd say based on the many positive reviews on the site that the odds are you wouldn't need a full dyno tune for a good outcome.  There are many satisfied people running the map supplied by Steve at Fullsac.  Might it be possible for a truly good tuner to tweak that map for a little better result on your particular bike?  Yes, but then you need to ask yourself how much you want to spend for some numbers on a chart that may not translate to a better riding experience.  And if you are so inclined and reasonably computer savvy, you can actually do your own data collection and map tweaking with the TTS software (they call it V-Tune).

As for the bogus statements about the T-Max by your mechanic, I hope you realize that opinions like his are somewhat like azzholes; we all have one.  His comment about the T-Max adjusting for altitude and climate made me fall off my chair laughing.  T-Max is one of the LEAST sophisticated products on the market, and is light years behind the stock Delphi engine management system.  They don't even utilize all the sensor data the stock system uses.  To me the entire T-Max deal is proof that a good marketing plan along with misleading claims can take any product of dubious value and make it successful in today's marketplace.  

JMHO - Jerry    (Yes, I have an opinion and have also been known to be an azzhole)

Jerry,

You know of a good tuner in NW INdiana that knows TTS?  I'm in SE Mich, I would be willing to take a ride out?  I took it to a place and I'm not happy with the results.

[DtyHarry]

Any good TTS tuners in Southern California anybody can vouch for??

Harry

[grc]

Jerry,

You know of a good tuner in NW INdiana that knows TTS?  I'm in SE Mich, I would be willing to take a ride out?  I took it to a place and I'm not happy with the results.

Unfortunately I don't anymore.  The best tuners I knew around here moved on early in the Great Recession.  

There is a place south of Beecher Illinois that has a very good reputation, but I haven't had a chance to stop by and check them out personally.  It's called Valley Racing, and I understand the tuner is quite capable with TTS.  Check with the folks at TTS or some of the TTS tuners on this site for recommendations in southern Michigan or northern Indiana or Ohio.

Jerry

[tweeter13]

Couldn't Harley Davidson theoretically also claim that their ECM also does auto tune as well.  It adjust fuel and if I am not mistaken timing as the bike is being ridden as well once it goes into closed loop.  Using the sensors it reads it adjust according to the parameters set inside it adjusts accordingly.  This in turn is why we flash a new map to give it better figures to run better and cooler.  If you want to pass a California emission test you would give a different map but your engine would run completely different and be hotter.  So to get to the point as as brought up in many threads here auto tune is just vocabulary used for selling a product.  Your ECM on your car in essence auto tunes as you drive the O2 sensors are always fluctuating from rich to lean rich to lean once in closed loop to keep air fuel ratio at their predetermined setting.   In the 80's remember people would buy a chip or prom to put in their cars.  Basically we are building one just for our specific bike and flashing it our ECM.  It's more precise and with the TTS you can really dial it in.   I could be way off the mark here but hope I am a little close. 

Todd

[Steve Cole]

Any good TTS tuners in Southern California anybody can vouch for??

Harry

Thomason Racing
Torrance, CA 310-704-4544

He can be hard to get ahold of but leave a message and he will call you back. He races HD's and rides them as well so he can handle most anything you need but he is a one man band.

Greenrock Performance
1473 Tower Square    
Ventura    CA    USA    805-639-3021

A small shop and the owner/tuner is Bill


The Auto tune name has been beat to death and IMHO used improperly as NONE of the systems today, Auto Tune. All require some interaction between a laptop and the ECM regardless of what anyone says.

[DtyHarry]

Thanks, every hear of a place called the "Cycle Doctor" in Costa Mesa?  The are apparently one of the TTS dealers...

[Steve Cole]

Yes, that's Jeff Gates and he does nice work too. So if your close to him give him a call.

[Midnight Rider]

Couldn't Harley Davidson theoretically also claim that their ECM also does auto tune as well.  It adjust fuel and if I am not mistaken timing as the bike is being ridden as well once it goes into closed loop.  Using the sensors it reads it adjust according to the parameters set inside it adjusts accordingly.  This in turn is why we flash a new map to give it better figures to run better and cooler.  If you want to pass a California emission test you would give a different map but your engine would run completely different and be hotter.  So to get to the point as as brought up in many threads here auto tune is just vocabulary used for selling a product.  Your ECM on your car in essence auto tunes as you drive the O2 sensors are always fluctuating from rich to lean rich to lean once in closed loop to keep air fuel ratio at their predetermined setting.   In the 80's remember people would buy a chip or prom to put in their cars.  Basically we are building one just for our specific bike and flashing it our ECM.  It's more precise and with the TTS you can really dial it in.   I could be way off the mark here but hope I am a little close. 

Todd

Yes, the stock ECM will "autotune" within the parameters set.  It's all about the parameters, to put it loosely.

[tweeter13]

Thank you Midnightrider.  Now it's the tts system that's allowing you to change the parameters to fit each bike with its individual application with pipes mufflers air cleaner,  ect... 

To me it's a no brainier on which system I would use with all the help you can get on here if you need a little tweek here or there for one more horse power or torque if that's what I wanted to do. 

From what I have read here and on their web site it does take a little reading but don't seem hard to do.  IMHO.

But once I get the stage one in the next few months from fullsac I don't plan on messing with it much. 

Todd. 

[HDGearHead]

 ANd... TMax is NOT closed loop fuel control.  TMax allows you to build a new map out of what has been seen by the TMax, it is NOT instantaneous.  

That's false.  The TMAX with autotune IS a closed loop system.

The TMAX will also autotune to achieve and maintain the desired AFR while riding.  The maximum % of CLP offset (MAP) adjustment that will be made to the installed base map while riding is limited and controllable by the user (i.e. will not offset beyond a user set % offset limit, typically 10% per session map, 20% maximum map). 

During the initial tuning process, after having loaded a base map close to your build, you ride the bike (on the road or dyno) and let it autotune (it'll determine and automatically apply the required amount of offset to the chosen base map within limit).  If the required % of required CLP offset never exceeds the set maximum limits, you technically wouldn't have to update the base map to achieve the desired AFR. 

However, ideally you modify the base map until the amount of offset required to achieve the set AFR is minimal (0% to 5%).   When the base map is updated through the tuning software, the offsets applied while riding are incorporated into the new base map and then cleared (similar to resetting adaptive fuel).  On next ride, the new map becomes the baseline and new starting/0 point for the maximum allowable CLP offset limit.  You repeat this process until there is little or no autotuning offset being applied (allows a lot of room in either direction for autotune to correct if needed).

After the base map has been tuned so minimal offset is required to achieve the desired AFR, the TMAX will continue autotuning within the maximum CLP % limits to compensate for any changes in air density, fuel, etc. for any desired AFR value within the range of its Wideband O2 sensors.   The Delphi system does this using adaptive fuel when operating in closed loop mode within the limited range of its narrow band O2 sensors.  However the delphi system cannot compensate for conditions when operating in open loop outside of the narrow band O2 sensor range.

When it comes to autotuning the AFR to achieve and maintain a desired AFR, the TMAX does an excellent job.

However the TMAX does NOT auto-tune timing and has no knock control (no ION sensing like Delphi ECM).

The TMAX also does not determine what the ideal AFR and timing curves should be for your particular build/bike.  Unless the base map closely matches your bikes build, your taking a stab in the dark as to what they should be.  However, in this aspect, the TMAX is no different from the TTS or SEPST.  Without a Dyno, you have nothing to reference to help you know where you need to go with these.

Because of this, ideally the bike should still be tuned on a Dyno by a skilled TMAX/TTS/SEPST tuner to dial in the base map. 

The several TMAX base maps that I've played with on my softail were pretty conservative.  I'm guessing this was to prevent a condition that could cause engine damage.  However, my bike was very drivable after a short distance with all of the TMAX base maps that I've tried; idled great, no hesitation/flat spots, no knocking, ran cool, reasonable gas mileage (42-44) and pulled hard all the way to redline.  I was satisfied enough that I decided not to have it dyno tuned.  Because of this, I have no proof one way or another (outside of my butt dyno) that I'm making more power or how much I may have left on the table.   

Community support for the TMAX and the availability of knowledgeable skilled TMAX tuners are both limited.  I've personally received excellent support (base map and tuning questions) from Zippers for the TMAX although others have reported having the opposite experience. 

Many of the problems people have experienced with the TMAX can be attributed to not using dielectric grease on the ECM and O2 sensor connectors during installation (and TBW servo connector as well).  This is a problem shared with the Delphi system as well.

On the other hand, TTS support and tuner availability far exceed what is available for the TMAX. 

As to warranty, all of them (TTS, SEPST, PowerVision/Commander, TMAX, etc) can void the warranty.

I've used the TMAX w/Autotune, TMAX TBW w/Autotune, TTS and SEPST.  They all have pros and cons and any of them can provide a good tune.

Personally, my ideal ECM would be a combination of the Delphi system and the TMAX (wideband O2 with AFR Autotune) and incorporate a MAF sensor to eliminate the need for VE.


Just throwing in my two cents.

[Max Headflow]

 

Max

[Hilly13]

The thread title is TTS or Thundermax, given that, I would opt for TTS everytime, cannot see the point in throwing away a perfectly good ecm in favour of a lesser more expensive ecm, just my honest opinion.

[Max Headflow]

The thread title is TTS or Thundermax, given that, I would opt for TTS everytime, cannot see the point in throwing away a perfectly good ecm in favour of a lesser more expensive ecm, just my honest opinion.

You like sticking your finger in a fan also?? If planing on doing one build and not changing anything ever, TTS is probably the way to go.. You can get someone else to tune it.. If you like wasting time collecting data and massaging files only to find out that you really need to get the bike tuned on a Dyno.. Buy TTS.. If you are a masochist, buy TTS.. If you know how to tune a carb and ignition, Tmax is the way to go.. In fact it's easier to use and you don't get gas on your hands..

Max

[Hilly13]

That's your take mate not mine, my take is I like the TTS system and will keep using and recomending it, a few people I know have had tmax's and removed them, some still have them and like them but they are mild builds, my bike is in flux, always changing this or that and vtuning just got a bit easier for me, maybe its a case of fossils for fossils or horses for courses?

[Max Headflow]

Well,

I've done stage 1 to CCPs over 220psi  in a number of different builds and not had any issues.. The problem with TTS is that any mild change requires Vtune.. Tmax won't.. No need to Vtune.. The problem is that most believe that Tmax is a full auto tuner.. It's not.. The systems I have all came off bikes that the owner couldn't figure out tried a half dozen maps and gave up.  They worked fine for me.. Sounds like you ought to try a Tmax.
Max

[Max Headflow]

As I understand it.. Once you married a ECM to a TSS, You can undo it.. Probably the reason why you don't see people taking them off..They're stuck with it..    Need to keep maps around cuz you can't pull it off the unit..

Max

[SBB]

As I understand it.. Once you married a ECM to a TSS, You can undo it.. Probably the reason why you don't see people taking them off..They're stuck with it..    Need to keep maps around cuz you can't pull it off the unit..

Max

Being married to a TTS is like being married to a rich woman that owns a liqueur store and a Harley dealership.
I'm sure there are those that could screw up even a sweet arrangement like that.

 

SBB

[North Georgia Hawg]

Being married to a TTS is like being married to a rich woman that owns a liqueur store and a Harley dealership.
I'm sure there are those that could screw up even a sweet arrangement like that.

 

SBB

+1, CHIP!!! I noticed you didn't mention a few other... ummm... "attributes" of the woman tho... 

I think that the TTS MasterTune is the best flash tuner out there. It has more capabilities than the others, and Steve Cole and his team at TTS continue to improve it. Flash tuners are the right approach, I think. The Delphi ECM is a very capable device, and I would never want to replace it with a third party engine management system... I see no need to do that... especially when you lose the very important ion sensing for knock detection and timing retardation to avoid engine damage.

The point of tuning is to get the various tables in the base calibration dialed in closely, so the ECM doesn't need to make huge changes to the air-fuel mixture while running. The ECM will over time get the air-fuel values dialed in more closely as you ride - within limits based on the VE table values - and will continually save these "learned" correction values each time the bike is powered off. The closer the VE table values are to begin with, the less correction the ECM needs to apply while running. That's the point of the VTune process - to get the VE tables pretty close to ideal in the base cal.

There is a huge library of TTS calibration files to start from that have been set up by TTS for various types of builds, and the VTuning process is straightforward and pretty simple to do. The MasterTune enables adjustment of all of the important tables: main lambda, VE, timing, accel enrich, decel enlean, the very important but not well understood EGR, etc. And, it accommodates for the cams you are running... very important to get that correct before even bothering with the VTune process.

I disagree with the comment made about the TTS MasterTune not being able to accommodate for changes in the build. I've changed my build MANY times, and we've retuned the bike for each one fairly easily... doing low-RPM VTune runs first, then higher-RPM VTune runs - and adjusting the EGR, accel enrich, and decel enlean tables along the way.

For around $450, I don't think you can't buy a better tuning device than the TTS MasterTune.

Ken

[Midnight Rider]

As I understand it.. Once you married a ECM to a TSS, You can undo it.. Probably the reason why you don't see people taking them off..They're stuck with it..    Need to keep maps around cuz you can't pull it off the unit..

Max

I'm assuming that you do know that the TTS does not reside on the bike?  It's merely an interface between the laptop and the ECM that allows communication and monitoring of systems while hooked up via cables to the data port on the bike.  The "marriage" simply means you can't use the "Dongle" to talk to another bike's ECM after it has interfaced with one ECM.

And you are correct in your analogy of the Tmax...old technology that does not have the capabilities of the Dephi system that comes stock on the bike.

But, if it works for you and you like the results, nothing else matters.  The point is that the Tmax is NOT as capable as the Delphi ECM.  That's a fact.  Period.

[Hilly13]

Think you fellas covered it 

[hrdtail78]

.. If you know how to tune a carb and ignition, Tmax is the way to go.. In fact it's easier to use and you don't get gas on your hands..

Max

And it's about as sophisticated as a Mik also.  I like the tmax and they are good for a few things.  Until the other companies catch up to a 2 bar MAP sensor they rule for that, but I do believe we are talking natural aspirated for 95% of the engines I am going to tune.  VE tables, front and rear, w/ a MAP load fuel table wins hand down for me all day long.  But I guess the tuning strategy of 14:1 everywhere and 12.8 for WOT is good enough for some.

What's the sample rate of the tmax broad band sensors?  What is tmax doing for temp and pressure variations?  Do you leave the sensors in forever or does tmax recommend taking them out and run OL after the tune?  How do they work with bikes with cats still installed?

[Max Headflow]

I'm assuming that you do know that the TTS does not reside on the bike?  It's merely an interface between the laptop and the ECM that allows communication and monitoring of systems while hooked up via cables to the data port on the bike.  The "marriage" simply means you can't use the "Dongle" to talk to another bike's ECM after it has interfaced with one ECM.

And you are correct in your analogy of the Tmax...old technology that does not have the capabilities of the Dephi system that comes stock on the bike.

But, if it works for you and you like the results, nothing else matters.  The point is that the Tmax is NOT as capable as the Delphi ECM.  That's a fact.  Period.

The kind of shows you don't have a clue in the long term.. Once married and you want a divorce.. She takes the house..    You can't sell it what you gonna live in?  Do you have a clue as to whet the technologies are? Tell us here.. Tell how much better they are..

Max

[Steve Cole]

Bruce

Not sure what you think is going on but the TMax has it's issues just as the Delphi does. Also, when you want to sell the bike with a TMax you going to be able to remove it and sell the bike without? Not a chance if the bikes modified, so you sell it with the bike. SAME SAME

So how well does the TMax do knock retard? Sure seems like you got a bug up your ass and that's not you from what I know. I know your happy with your TMax's and that's all well and good but let's keep the rumor BS down if we can. Like you said you've been able to buy plenty of them from people who have not been able to get them to work properly.

[Max Headflow]

Steve,,
Yes you are correct respects.. Once you've gone down the performance path.. Still you can't sell the TTS if you wanted to..

Are the maps retrievable..I understand on the power vision they are.. ..

I'm assuming that you do know that the TTS does not reside on the bike?

Since Steve is replying to this thread. Maybe he can explain it to you.. As I uderstand it is it a flash reprogram of certain section of the unit.. Maybe all cept the RTOS..

  The point is that the Tmax is NOT as capable as the Delphi ECM.  That's a fact.  Period.

Haven't a clue as to what you mean here.. One is replaced with the other..  Do you? Motorcycle still runs well..

Max

[hrdtail78]

Max,

You have over 13,499 post on another forum.  I have much respect for you.  Just got to question your last 10 on here.

TTS vs Tmax or any other.  When things don't go as planned, there is no good starter cal, or just wrong parts.   TTS basically lets you build a calibration from scratch.  Most access to an ECM.  Even more than Tmax into their ECM.  It really is the most tools in the box.

You can take a stock 2013 FL and do a stage 1.  Tune to 13.2 and it will run better than it did stock.  Add a bolt in cam and we get the best bang for the buck vtwins have seen.  Tune is on and the thing will simply S&G.  110tq 100hp all day long if backed by a good stage 1.  89 stroker evo's w/ headwork and all the money you got in a FXR don't run like these new bikes.  Our tuning strategies need to advance also.

[Max Headflow]

hrdtail78,

I'm not sure what the question is.. Is it whether or not on can create their own map? Then no there is not a map creator.. You need to start with a base map of some sort and go from there.. Is it an issue, I don't think so.. You end up starting from an approximated map in either case.. With Tmax, you can pull a number of maps and select what you want from any of them an cut / paste from one to the other (advanced feature).

Using the auto tune will tell you how close the current map is as far as AFR goes.. The nice thing is that when changing small things a little at a time you and only need to ride the bike.. In many cases an updated autotune map is a post process to the change gut to see how the Tmax did..

I can't knock Delphi / TTS systems as far as capabilities go. There is a reason why HD chose to use it. For the hobbiest / shade tree the Tmax is easier to use.. Both have their learning curve.

I see that TTS is now trying to extend the AFR tuning range for V tunes.. It sounds like they are moving to a more complete closed loop system like Tmax..

Still the only way to guarantee top performance is to use a Dyno.

Max

[turboprop]

I like the T-Max, also like TTS, I do have a dyno and can tune both systems pretty easily. That being said, I prefer TMax and recommend it to my buddies for the same reasons that Max has said.

Will add that last year I did a side by side comparison between a TTS tune and a TMax tune. Admittedly, this was on my mild 2005 bagger (that I retrofitted NBs to) and the runs were a few months apart, but the hp/tq curves were identicle and power output was within the variance of the dyno (3 hp difference).

As for the knock retard and timing in general, I like that TMax does not auto adjust timing the way TTS does.

As for resale, lots of different scenarios, I think for the 120R crowd that TMax is the better option. The owner pulls the original motor and ECM and can easily put them back in when its time to sell the bike. This leaves him with a TMax that can be sold or used on the next bike as its not married to anything.

I think maybe the reason why their is so much online discussion about TTS, which some will call support, is because it is not as easy to use as TMax and requires allot more help. Zippers has put out many professional, factory produced videos showing how to install and tune TMax that the owners of TMax systems simply do not NEED all this online chatter.

Taste great vs less filling, my vote is taste great.

[mayor]

I think what Max is very clumsily trying to say/prove is both systems work in the right hands.  Max has done from mild to wild with the Tmax, with minimum issues.  He's practically built maps from scratch when he's made throttle body changes (Tmax is TPS based).  He also has a very good understanding of timing, which is the part that most Tmax owners don't realize is not auto tuned.  He understands the limits, and he's not afraid of the system. I can agree with Max, most of the time when folks have had an issue with the Tmax it is due to not understanding the limits of the system and not understanding enough basic tuning to correct for problems.  By reading some of the comments here, I think a lot of you guys think that Max is cutting on TTS.  I don't think that's the case, I think he is simply defending a product he likes and is pointing out perceived weaknesses in a product that he doesn't totally understand.   

I've used both systems, and I can't say that one is out right superior to another since the goals that someone has is what is going to dictate which is better for them.  For closed loop fuel control, the Tmax system works very well.  Anytime I've had my Tmax bike on a dyno, the wide open throttle was table top flat (ok, well with in the expected margin of error Steve  ).   The trick to getting good wide open fuel control with the Tmax is you have to allow the system to take measurements from there so it knows what to do to make adjustments to reach the desired goal, and most of the time when guys have mixed results at wide open it is due to them not taking enough readings in that range.  I know Max, and I know collecting data at wide open isn't an issue for him. 

For timing control, the alpha-N system the Tmax uses is an outdated way to handle timing.  I would take speed density for timing anyday over alpha-N.  This doesn't mean one can't make Alpha-N work.  When I had a Tmax bike, my TTS vtuned bike and Tmax bike would get with in fractions of a MPG within each other on the same trip.  The one scenario that the Alpha-N system the Tmax has with timing is MAP is not a factor, long cam high compression builds are much more tuner friendly.  That's never been an issue for me since I'm compressionally challenged, but I think that this favors Max's build preferences. 

[mayor]

So how well does the TMax do knock retard?

about as well as a carb bike, but then again one doesn't have to worry about whether the plugs, wires, or some sort of unknown outer space phenomenon is making a mess of the timing with ghost retards either.   

[Max Headflow]

about as well as a carb bike, but then again one doesn't have to worry about whether the plugs, wires, or some sort of unknown outer space phenomenon is making a mess of the timing with ghost retards either.   

As mayor says you done need it..  Unless you want to run lean..

Max

[eleft36]

I like the T-Max, also like TTS, I do have a dyno and can tune both systems pretty easily. That being said, I prefer TMax and recommend it to my buddies for the same reasons that Max has said.

Will add that last year I did a side by side comparison between a TTS tune and a TMax tune. Admittedly, this was on my mild 2005 bagger (that I retrofitted NBs to) and the runs were a few months apart, but the hp/tq curves were identicle and power output was within the variance of the dyno (3 hp difference).

As for the knock retard and timing in general, I like that TMax does not auto adjust timing the way TTS does.

As for resale, lots of different scenarios, I think for the 120R crowd that TMax is the better option. The owner pulls the original motor and ECM and can easily put them back in when its time to sell the bike. This leaves him with a TMax that can be sold or used on the next bike as its not married to anything.

I think maybe the reason why their is so much online discussion about TTS, which some will call support, is because it is not as easy to use as TMax and requires allot more help. Zippers has put out many professional, factory produced videos showing how to install and tune TMax that the owners of TMax systems simply do not NEED all this online chatter.

Taste great vs less filling, my vote is taste great.

 

Al

[Hilly13]

about as well as a carb bike, but then again one doesn't have to worry about whether the plugs, wires, or some sort of unknown outer space phenomenon is making a mess of the timing with ghost retards either.   

Just so folks watching this hokus pokus don't get the wrong idea, that ghost retard issue is a Delphi issue not a TTS issue, TTS is just a device for tuning the stock Delphi ecm, Tmax is a complete replacement ecm, two very different aproachs to achieve a set goal. Both work, the OP chose TTS because he could tune both his bikes for less than the cost of one Tmax, will they be perfectly tuned? probably not, will they be good enough? if he follows the directions yes, as for internet chatter, there are other ways to "spin" that, personely I think it means a lot of people that previously have not attempted tuning have put a foot in the water and are looking for advise, to me that's a good thing, no one was born a gun tuner were they?

[mayor]

Just so folks watching this hokus pokus don't get the wrong idea, that ghost retard issue is a Delphi issue not a TTS issue, TTS is just a device for tuning the stock Delphi ecm, Tmax is a complete replacement ecm, two very different approaches to achieve a set goal. Both work....

agreed.  The ghost retard is inherent in the Delphi system, and not an issue exclusive to TTS.  The other important thing to note is the knock retard actually works quite well.  It's just some fluke occurrences where it doesn't, which can get quite frustrating to those dealing with it. 

I think that anyone who doesn't think there is internet chatter regarding tuning the Tmax is kidding themselves.   There's plenty of "help me figure this out" threads out there with the Tmax as well.  A think the reason you see less today than the flash tuner threads is there is much less folks afraid to dip into flash tuning than there used to be. 

[hrdtail78]

Understanding of the tuning system you are working with is the key.  Mis understanding how the tmax works and knowing how to use it with in it's limitations can be said about them all.  Even a super E.

Comparing one tuning system to the other using WOT is a wash.  The vtwin style engine is forgiving at WOT.  Flat line, curvy line, 12.8 to 13.5 doesn't yeild much difference at all.  Or atleast none that my dyno can show.  Why would guys like the CV over the super E or G.  It's not WOT tuning.  It's the part throttle, roll on area's that is the bigger concern.

TTS gives you about 7 tables to deal with spark, and the choice to disable knock retard if one wish's.  This is not the simpliest appraoch, but the more thorough one for sure.  Might bring up a few topics on forums.  There are a lot of oil threads also.  Doesn't make it a bad thing.  And oh look.  There is some tmax chatter about fuel ramping right now on another forum.

Resale and marriage?  When I put out another $30,000 for a replacement for the FL I have now.  I guess I will just have to buck up and pay the $450 for a new TTS.  Or I can just keep it stock.  I have to wonder what ripping off the tuning system and trying to sell an untuned bike does for it's resale?

[Rio]

   Nothing like beating a topic to death?

[SBB]

  Nothing like beating a topic to death?

X 2

Rio, your right.
There are 3 or 4 that devote their entire life to tuning.
Don't care about CVO's, don't care about GTG's, don't care about the sound systems, don't care about how it rides, handles or looks.
They found this place and will stay until they find another site to beat that tuning horse senseless.


SBB

[TN]

I find this thread and others like it enlightening. at least there is some substance to the content. 





Tune On


TN

[North Georgia Hawg]

Too bad they brought their stupid HTT stuff to our peaceful little CVO land...

I am on HTT too... But after see all the chit-slinging and "you're wrong I'm right!" CRAP that goes on there, I have never made a post there past my first one. Gigantic waste of time over there...

Who really cares if you can wring another 1% by doing this or that, or using this or that? Here, we just RIDE and enjoy it! There's a LOT more to riding than squeezing the last ounce of performance...  That said, I'll put my tune up against anyone's... because it was done by a genuine WIZARD.

Gotta get my lazy butt to Maggie Valley this year to finally meet all of the NICE CVO owners here!

Ken

[eleft36]

"I think that anyone who doesn't think there is internet chatter regarding tuning the Tmax is kidding themselves."

Mayor,
  Tmax posts(everywhere) are like a single flake in a blizzard compared to TTS.
Because it's easy to get good results right out of the box.
Al

 

[SBB]

Too bad they brought their stupid HTT stuff to our peaceful little CVO land...

I am on HTT too... But after see all the chit-slinging and "you're wrong I'm right!" CRAP that goes on there, I have never made a post there past my first one. Gigantic waste of time over there...

Who really cares if you can wring another 1% by doing this or that, or using this or that? Here, we just RIDE and enjoy it! There's a LOT more to riding than squeezing the last ounce of performance...  That said, I'll put my tune up against anyone's... because it was done by a genuine WIZARD.

Gotta get my lazy butt to Maggie Valley this year to finally meet all of the NICE CVO owners here!

Ken

Ken you really should make Maggie Valley.
It's not that far and I would enjoy meeting you.

 

SBB

[Max Headflow]

Too bad they brought their stupid HTT stuff to our peaceful little CVO land...
{Snip}
Ken

Yeah your right.. CVO owners don't really care about the technical side they only want to know where they can spend their money,..

 

Max

[SERK3]

No system is 100% perfect. They all, even a dyno, require a bit of give and take somewhere. The T-Max has certainly had it's share of issues as well and isn't for all situations and builds. Do your research, choose what your comfortable with using.

As for resale, I include the cost when I buy a bike and know I am going to make changes. All the chrome and performance parts are a loss as well. You want a good resale price, keep it a stock garage queen. Then pray.

  Well said, You hit the nail right on the head, 

[North Georgia Hawg]

Yeah your right.. CVO owners don't really care about the technical side they only want to know where they can spend their money,..

 

Max

Oh, we care about tuning, Max... it's just not the ONLY thing we care about. Tuning is important, and I understand it quite well, thank you. But trying to get the last ounce of performance out of a 110" engine is a good way to destroy it. They have enough issues in stock form. Most of us don't drag race these expensive machines. I would never want to give up ion sensing and leave my engine unprotected against preignition and/or detonation from a tank of bad gas on a hot day 300 miles from home.

You like the T-Max, then fine... use it and be happy. I will stick with the TTS and the Harley ECM because I think Steve Cole and his team understand Harley tuning and the Delphi system better than anyone outside of Delphi itself. I think the MasterTune is the most flexible tuner out there, and it just keeps getting better.

Ken

[Twolanerider]

Yeah your right.. CVO owners don't really care about the technical side they only want to know where they can spend their money,..

 

Max

Can someone who knows this guy from the other site that's been mentioned tell me if it's more likely he's being facetious or is just being a dick?

[110tHunDer]

 
Wo cares about the other site?   The dick ratio is pretty high on the 13 posts here.

[grc]

I can't help but be amused when all the "experts", real or imagined, turn a simple question and answer thread like this into a marathon "mine is bigger than yours" bull session.  Yup, we're all impressed that you supposedly know how to tune your bike with product XYZ.  Unless you're offering to tune the OP's bike for him, however, I don't understand beating that to death while ignoring the real issue.

Some "experts" in this thread finally admitted, but probably not on purpose, what several of us were trying to tell the OP.  The T-Max is not magic, no matter how many false claims the folks at Zipper's and T-Max make about automatic tuning and no dyno time needed, etc.  The fact that a person with a tuning background and the proper equipment can tune his bike with a T-Max doesn't help the typical member who asks these kinds of questions on the site.  You know, the vast majority who don't work on bikes and have no desire to spend the next year or two acquiring the knowledge and tools to tune the bike themselves.  And regardless of what anyone may claim, there aren't a lot of T-Max tuners out there waiting to fix the not-so-automatic T-Max tune.  If someone gets lucky and the base map happens to match their bike well, great for them.  For all the others who fall for the "install and forget" implied by the advertising, they tend to be the source of all those T-Max devices that can be found for sale after Zipper's support fails to address the issues and the customer can't find a qualified tuner to fix the product that supposedly never needs tuning or dyno time.

In case anyone doesn't understand my reason for stating all this, it's pretty simple really.  I have a real problem with people and products that use misleading or outright false claims to sell their snake oil, and I don't recommend such a product to anyone without first offering advice to do your homework and be aware of the BS.  If someone knows going in that they personally don't know how to tweak the tune themselves, and they don't have anyone nearby who uses that particular system and could in fact tune it for them, they need to think about that before blindly plunking down their money.

Jerry

[mayor]

Can someone who knows this guy from the other site that's been mentioned tell me if it's more likely he's being facetious or is just being a dick?

hard to tell with Max sometimes.  There's generally some truths hiding in what ever he posts though, you just have to know how to decipher what he's saying. 

I would guess that he was being facetious. I think he was trying to make a point that it seems a little like an oxymoron when folks are complaining about technical discussions about Harley tuning on a sub session of a Harley forum that is dedicated to tuning.   

[Twolanerider]

Wo cares about the other site?   The dick ratio is pretty high on the 13 posts here.

Hadn't bothered to read the other 12.  Was sent a link to that one suggesting "hey, take a look at this dick."  But didn't want to damn the dick based on one post so thought it fair to ask the question.  So the verdict is dick?  Ok then.  Dick it is.

[Twolanerider]

I can't help but be amused when all the "experts", real or imagined, turn a simple question and answer thread like this into a marathon "mine is bigger than yours" bull session.  Yup, we're all impressed that you supposedly know how to tune your bike with product XYZ.  Unless you're offering to tune the OP's bike for him, however, I don't understand beating that to death while ignoring the real issue.

It's rare this can be said; but Jerry is just wrong there .

[grc]

It's rare this can be said; but Jerry is just wrong there .

Come on Don, the master of sarcasm doesn't recognize sarcasm?

Jerry

[SBB]

Come on Don, the master of sarcasm doesn't recognize sarcasm?

Jerry

OMG NO!
Twice in one day Jerry has been, , , , wrong.
                         

Here is the real master,
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=2553
We sure miss him.
Don is #2! That's why he has to try harder.



SBB


Edited to add, in the interest of getting a good tune on lunch I hooked up the Commodore 64 to the Trager.
The results are not of Hogbreath or DC Fireman stature but will be a good snack as I surf (not) tuning  sites.

[Twolanerider]

Come on Don, the master of sarcasm doesn't recognize sarcasm?

Jerry

I am so ashamed....

[sadunbar]

hard to tell with Max sometimes.  There's generally some truths hiding in what ever he posts though, you just have to know how to decipher what he's saying. 

I would guess that he was being facetious. I think he was trying to make a point that it seems a little like an oxymoron when folks are complaining about technical discussions about Harley tuning on a sub session of a Harley forum that is dedicated to tuning.   

Mayor,

I don't think anyone's complaining about technical discussions taking place about tuning on a technical tuning board.  Let's be honest...there's a reason there's been a small influx of new members to our CVO/social based site.  Many of the new members are "here" because they couldn't act like adults "there".   And, beating topics to death and acting like children "here" will likely eventually have the same result as it did "there"...  

[grc]

Mayor,

I don't think anyone's complaining about technical discussions taking place about tuning on a technical tuning board.  Let's be honest...there's a reason there's been a small influx of new members to our CVO/social based site.  Many of the new members are "here" because they couldn't act like adults "there".   And, beating topics to death and acting like children "here" will likely eventually have the same result as it did "there"...  

       Exactly.  And if I may be so bold as to expand on your comment Scot, I don't think anyone around here cares if the "tuners" get together on their own thread to discuss sensor mV output versus measured AFR, or the other thread they have running.  Those who aren't interested in that stuff will just skip the thread, sort of like how some of us ignore the threads about guns or other subjects that don't interest us.  The problem comes when they hijack other people's threads and then start acting like children, taking a simple question and turning it into a never ending discourse of how great they are at using product XYZ and ignoring the fact that the people the thread was aimed at aren't tuners and are probably looking for the most practical solution for them.

Anyhow, I've said my piece on the subject and I intend to move on to more pressing issues, like what is the best motor oil for a Harley.

Jerry

[TN]

Wo cares about the other site?   The dick ratio is pretty high on the 13 posts here.

I agree Brian, but the post you refer to is probably different to the post i see in being negative. 

I've used TMAX and TTS doing it myself with good results. I like to see technical post about such as I'm trying to learn. For the ones that know it all and know folks that know it all, the point is mute. So they should follow suit.

I'm am a DIY'er and not by choice, just got tired of other so called professionals screwing my bike up and feeling no responsibility. Maybe I should of known all the technical info before I took the leaps. I've seen mention here that there is no one perfect tuning option for everyone, so it must be true.

I'm also glad we all have some passion when it comes to our beloved CVO's.   




enough cash in this department will cure it all.

[sadunbar]

Anyhow, I've said my piece on the subject and I intend to move on to more pressing issues, like what is the best motor oil for a Harley.

Jerry

   You mean you don't already know?  

[North Georgia Hawg]

Anyhow, I've said my piece on the subject and I intend to move on to more pressing issues, like what is the best motor oil for a Harley.

Jerry

OMG! This thread is DOOMED now! Jerry said the "O" word! 

Ken

[Twolanerider]

    Exactly.  And if I may be so bold as to expand on your comment Scot, I don't think anyone around here cares if the "tuners" get together on their own thread to discuss sensor mV output versus measured AFR, or the other thread they have running.  Those who aren't interested in that stuff will just skip the thread, sort of like how some of us ignore the threads about guns or other subjects that don't interest us.  The problem comes when they hijack other people's threads and then start acting like children, taking a simple question and turning it into a never ending discourse of how great they are at using product XYZ and ignoring the fact that the people the thread was aimed at aren't tuners and are probably looking for the most practical solution for them.

Anyhow, I've said my piece on the subject and I intend to move on to more pressing issues, like what is the best motor oil for a Harley.

Jerry

And.....   once again Jerry is spot on as usual (I was wrong about being wrong when, previously, I thought was wrong but was mistaken about that).

I actually quite like the good technical threads.  Can't help but have noticed the recent influx of vendors/gurus/agents/whatever they are.  Had assumed they migrated from another site.  In and of itself I could care less.  This place has always been surprisingly inclusive.

My (personal) complaint is when the vendors play mine-is-bigger and hijack the threads either belittling the civilians (who aren't always wrong, by the way) or competing with each other.  They're not subtle either.  It's obvious most couldn't give a damn about the civilians they're  preaching to or competing for the attention of.  It's just competition with their competition because it is oh-so-important to have the self-perception of looking good.  Insecurities being what they are that may be important.  But to most of us here it's just not (he says while typing while wearing only his tidy whities waiting for laundry to finish).

So to all the new vendors, technicians and technician wannabes; welcome aboard.  But from one semi-humble member whose opinion likely matters to no one but himself (and not even always to himself) if you have to be competitive find your own threads.  Go on and on and on and on.  I might even search a specific detail later and find something worth learning.  So thank you for the effort (but don't expect me to read the whole damned thing).

But don't hijack someone's topic for sales or other self-aggrandizing.  I know it's your intent to look better, smarter, $65 million dollar man better than those you're competing with but too often you just look tacky and make most of us less likely to spend money with you.

Seriously, we can hijack threads bad enough on our own; but in ways we enjoy and that fits within how we've always been comfortable.  We don't need a dozen or so sales parasites weenies wankers gentlemen running off on tangents that actually benefit no one (including themselves).

[Hog95023]

See me ride out of the sunset. On your color TV screen. Out for all that I can get. If you know what I mean. Women to the left of me. And women to the right. Ain't got no gun. Ain't got no knife
Don't you start no fight
'Cause I'm T.T.S I'm dynamite
(T.T.S.) and I'll win the fight
(T.T.S.) I'm a power load..........

[Hog95023]

Dang someone dug up a 3 year old thread made buy a guy that hasn't logged in for more then a year, 

[eleft36]

I don't understand beating that to death while ignoring the real issue.
Some "experts" in this thread finally admitted, but probably not on purpose, what several of us were trying to tell the OP.  The T-Max is not magic, no matter how many false claims the folks at Zipper's and T-Max make about automatic tuning and no dyno time needed, etc.  The fact that a person with a tuning background and the proper equipment can tune his bike with a T-Max doesn't help the typical member who asks these kinds of questions on the site.  You know, the vast majority who don't work on bikes and have no desire to spend the next year or two acquiring the knowledge and tools to tune the bike themselves.  And regardless of what anyone may claim, there aren't a lot of T-Max tuners out there waiting to fix the not-so-automatic T-Max tune.  If someone gets lucky and the base map happens to match their bike well, great for them.  For all the others who fall for the "install and forget" implied by the advertising, they tend to be the source of all those T-Max devices that can be found for sale after Zipper's support fails to address the issues and the customer can't find a qualified tuner to fix the product that supposedly never needs tuning or dyno time.

In case anyone doesn't understand my reason for stating all this, it's pretty simple really.  I have a real problem with people and products that use misleading or outright false claims to sell their snake oil, and I don't recommend such a product to anyone without first offering advice to do your homework and be aware of the BS.  If someone knows going in that they personally don't know how to tweak the tune themselves, and they don't have anyone nearby who uses that particular system and could in fact tune it for them, they need to think about that before blindly plunking down their money.

Jerry

I don't understand beating that to death while ignoring the real issue.
Which Is??
Jerry,
Every time you use The “ZIPPERS” word in your posts the story ends with bashing “ZIPPERS” because you had or heard about a bad experience with “ZIPPERS.
I’m happy you’re amused; at least that’s a positive.
Opinions & Feelings do not trump experience.
Al

[DtyHarry]

Quite the opinions here on this topic.  Based on my read the TTS would appear to be the easier route to go for someone who has no mechanical ability (me) and just wants to change out the exhaust and have the paid mechanic do the dyno tune.  My dealer is recommending the SERT but this does not look the better product - I'm sure this is the only product a HD is going to recommend.  I guess no-one here is using a Power Commander either...

I'll just need to find a reliable mechanic who can do the tune via the TTS option... Thanks.

Harry

[Max Headflow]

Oh, we care about tuning, Max... it's just not the ONLY thing we care about. Tuning is important, and I understand it quite well, thank you. But trying to get the last ounce of performance out of a 110" engine is a good way to destroy it.

Then you have a Dyno??

They have enough issues in stock form. Most of us don't drag race these expensive machines. I would never want to give up ion sensing and leave my engine unprotected against preignition and/or detonation from a tank of bad gas on a hot day 300 miles from home.

Ion sensors are definitely good for those that don't understand ignition timing..

You like the T-Max, then fine... use it and be happy. I will stick with the TTS and the Harley ECM because I think Steve Cole and his team understand Harley tuning and the Delphi system better than anyone outside of Delphi itself. I think the MasterTune is the most flexible tuner out there, and it just keeps getting better.
Ken

Notice that Steve is trying to make the "ease of tune" the same as the Tmax by adding data collection to the dongle so you don't need to carry along a laptop and figuring out a way to extend the narrow band sensors to broadband capability?  Kinda sounds like he want the functionality of a Tmax.. 

Max

[Twolanerider]

Can someone who knows this guy from the other site that's been mentioned tell me if it's more likely he's being facetious or is just being a dick?

Who cares about the other site?   The dick ratio is pretty high on the 13 posts here.

Then you have a Dyno??

Ion sensors are definitely good for those that don't understand ignition timing..

When Brian is right he's right....   

[tweeter13]

Thanks Jerry well put,  think I am going to the Ferrari site and tell them guys what they need to do with their vehicles.  What fuel management systems work the best.  Even know I don't own one.  I have worked on a few old ones a while back.  They wasn't worth 5 grand but I guess since I ran the valves and adjusted the carbs on them and I stayed at a Holiday inn express last night I am a expert on everything now.   

It's hard to listen to someone's advise after a few posts of how I read them as mean and one sided and not very open minded.  They may be very great tuners with the systems they like and that's great.  I know people that like and are having very good luck with most of the systems out there.  But they do not try to convince everyone what they have is the best and greatest. 

For example I personally only buy Sony products when it comes to TVs why that's what I have had great luck with and I like not to say that Samsung isn't a great tv as well.  I am familiar with the functions on it.   

May be once I meet someone in person it's different then how they are coming across when typing and how I am reading it.   I try not to jump to judgment because I know I am not as good with words as some. 


Just wondering what would happen if someone started a thread on what brand of spark plug wires are the best? Lol.

Every one have a good eve. And see ya on another thread.  Done here and again thanks Jerry for your wonderful words. 

Todd

[turboprop]

I know Max Headflow, he is not being facetious or a dick. Max is an accomplished engineer, motorcycle racer and a really good person. He does come off as being a little rough sometimes, but he is not biased in any way. If anything, he is very analytical and dives deep into issues to determine the root cause while not simply taking the same left turn as everyone else and applying a band aide to the symptom. A good example of this is his work on the common bagger woble. While many companies have come up with some pretty expensive band aides, Max went right to the root of the issue, swingarm doughnut crush, maybe a ten dollar fix. Another good example is the testing he did an almost every possible carburetor, manifold air cleaner combination. Anyways, please give Max a chance, he is one of the good ones.

[North Georgia Hawg]

I know Max Headflow. He is an accomplished engineer, motorcycle racer and a really good person. He does come off as being a little rough sometimes, but he is not biased in any way. If anything, he is very analytical and dives deep into issues to determine the root cause while not simply taking the same left turn as everyone else and applying a band aide to the symptom. A good example of this is his work on the common bagger woble. While many companies have come up with some pretty expensive band aides, Max went right to the root of the issue, swingarm doughnut crush, maybe a ten dollar fix. Another good example is the testing he did an almost every possible carburetor, manifold air cleaner combination. Anyways, please give Max a chance, he is one of the good ones.

As the famous motivational speaker Zig Ziglar used to say...

"What you say is important, but how you say it is even MORE important."

Ken

[mayor]

Based on my read the TTS would appear to be the easier route to go for someone who has no mechanical ability (me) and just wants to change out the exhaust and have the paid mechanic do the dyno tune. My dealer is recommending the SERT but this does not look the better product - I'm sure this is the only product a HD is going to recommend.

There are Harley shops all over the country that are using and recomending TTS over the SEPST.  Any shop that understands how to tune with SEPST, should be able to tune with TTS with just a little bit of time getting to know the software.  The TTS software is light years ahead of the software interface of SEPST IMO, so the learning curve shouldn't take long if the tuner really understands Delphi tuning. 
   

I guess no-one here is using a Power Commander either...

The Power Commander systems are still being used. The PC's are a piggy back system, which alters the the fuel and timing outside of the confines of the ECM.  There are still some applications that the piggy back systems are very suitable for, but these systems are becoming less popular with the available flash tuners on the market.  The one weak area of the piggy back tuners is the plug in interface at the ecm.  The newer bikes have a very cheap connection harness, so attaching and removing the plug too many times could result having future electrical connection issues.

The DJ Power Vision is becoming a very popular tuning option.  The PV is a flash tuner, and is very nice system.  I personally think the flash tuners are the way to go over a piggy back system.   


I think the biggest key to finding a tuner that can meet your expectations is discussing those expectations with tuners, and then deciding who you want to trust your bike to.  You may find the tuner you trust the most prefers one system over another.  There's quite a few good flash tuning options out there, and sometimes the difference between getting a good tune and not is whether you professional mechanic understands the system in which he's using to tune.   I'm a big fan of the TTS Mastertune system, but having all the internal tools to develop a good calibration is worthless in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use them.   On the same note, there's stripped down flash tuning options out there that will produce more than satisfactory results in the hands of a skilled professional tuner.  The key is to interview the person that you are thinking about hiring for the job, and choose the person that makes you feel the most comfortable.

[sadunbar]

Anyways, please give Max a chance, he is one of the good ones.

If Max is one of the good ones, he needs to act like one.  If he does, he'll be a welcome member of the site.  If he doesn't, then he's just a condescending dick who will quickly wear out his welcome.  His choice...   

[North Georgia Hawg]

If Max is one of the good ones, he needs to act like one.  If he does, he'll be a welcome member of the site.  If he doesn't, then he's just a condescending dick who will quickly wear out his welcome.  His choice...   

+1

[SBB]

+1

+2


SBB

[110tHunDer]

 
Later.

[mayor]

you folks that are taking offense to what Max is saying needs to take a step back and read his comments from a broader viewpoint.  He's not really trying to insult anyone from what he's saying, and even though is comments can be taken as personal shots, he's just giving a very analytical point of view.  I agree with everything that turboprop posted about Max, and will add that he's one of the more humble people you would ever meet.  If you guys think that his opinions are based on personal issues with anyone, you are totally off base.  You guys might find what Max posts to be offensive, but that very well could be due to not understanding what he's saying.   I'm not suggesting that any of you are stupid, but I will publically state that Max is very sharp and sees things at much different levels than most people.  I think an area that he struggles with is he doesn't realize that not everyone he communicates with is on the same level as him. 

For instance his comments about ION sensing may seem brash, but the system really is a band aid for the potential of over advancing the timing.  I personally like the feature, but like Max I don't think that it is an absolute requirement to ensure an engine doesn't explode.  I know of engines that have cooked due to folks using the knock retard inappropriately, so having this feature does not ensure absolute protection.  If someone understands timing the ION sensing isn't as important as someone who doesn't.  The proof of this is the thousands (if not millions) of engines in existence today that do not incorporate this system.

The other point he was making was that the Delphi system is limited in it's closed loop operation.  This also means that as is, the tuning systems on the market are not currently providing an accurate DIY tune at all load ranges.  This isn't a shot at Steve Cole or TTS, this is describing a limitation that is inherent in the Delphi closed loop system.  If any of you guys have been following FLTRI's narrow band thread, you will see that Steve sees this and is trying to address the issue using the tools available.   

[Twolanerider]

If Max is one of the good ones, he needs to act like one.  If he does, he'll be a welcome member of the site.  If he doesn't, then he's just a condescending dick who will quickly wear out his welcome.  His choice...   

"Chances" as were asked for are initially given.  But then earned.  If multiple responses carry the same tone that's the badge that's been earned.  If the guy comes in new he's got to ingratiate himself to any group to be well enough accepted in it to interact that way.

[Twolanerider]

you folks that are taking offense to what Max is saying needs to take a step back and read his comments from a broader viewpoint. 

No, really don't.

If the man wants a broader or better understanding of his intent, and he's got the skills and intellect suggested, it shouldn't be difficult to paint with a broader brush as he writes.  I can walk in to a new group of people (uninvited) and say they have an interesting architectural model with varied aesthetic choices made decorating their clubhouse.  Or I can ask "which one of  you stupid people through all this ugly crap together?" 

[mayor]

Keep in mind that someone with intellect does not always translate to being the best of communicators.  In fact, some of the smartest people I know are terrible at communicating without seeming to be condisending to the folks they are trying to communicate with.  Folks that seem to think in engineer terms are often the worse culprits, since they make assumptions that everyone has the abilities to fill in the missing blanks. 

with that said, it's your club so if you want to live in ignorance of your ugly decorating job feel free.  If you fellows are interested in getting different perspectives on how your decor may be working from a very sharp guy, then you may want to refrain from throwing Max aside due to his less than political comminication skills. 

[Twolanerider]

Keep in mind that someone with intellect does not always translate to being the best of communicators.  In fact, some of the smartest people I know are terrible at communicating without seeming to be condisending to the folks they are trying to communicate with.  Folks that seem to think in engineer terms are often the worse culprits, since they make assumptions that everyone has the abilities to fill in the missing blanks. 

with that said, it's your club so if you want to live in ignorance of your ugly decorating job feel free.  If you fellows are interested in getting different perspectives on how your decor may be working from a very sharp guy, then you may want to refrain from throwing Max aside due to his less than political comminication skills. 

That's no different than the person that attempts to excuse being rude by saying he/she is being "honest."  Communication is a human enterprise that, barring certain behavioral infirmities, any intelligent person can manage to some degree.  It may take forethought.  It may take a quick review and reconsideration before hitting "send."  But if someone wants to hold their audience rather than lose it, if they want to inform their audience rather than simply feel superior to it, they will put in that intellectual effort.  The question becomes if they deem their audience worth the effort or, instead, think themselves superior to that audience and, therefore, not worth that effort.

[sadunbar]

Sorry, but personally, if an intellectual mind is incapable of communicating in a civil manner, I'm really not that interested in what he has to say.   Max may well be "an accomplished engineer, motorcycle racer and a really good person", and if he is, I congratulate him on his accomplishments.  Thing is, he's chosen to not show that side if him here.  My bikes runs fine and I get much enjoyment out of them without scientific technical analysis of the small details.  Again, while there is much technical content to our forum, it's not a "tech forum".  Ours is a CVO based social forum where average guys and gals enjoy each others company and help each other out from time to time.  Maybe that's the part of our discussion that's not completely understood by some of our newer members.

[erniezap]

Okay people, enough BS and back and forth about people, which product is better, etc.  Play nice or we lock the thread and there will be no other option than to start locking people from the site...

[mayor]

Again, while there is much technical content to our forum, it's not a "tech forum".  Ours is a CVO based social forum where average guys and gals enjoy each others company and help each other out from time to time.  Maybe that's the part of our discussion that's not completely understood by some of our newer members.

yea, I think that part is becoming more apparent to some of us newer folks.  I think the other thing that gets lost in translation is the locals seem to feel that anyone that just shows up has an agenda.  There's guys like max, tsani, turboprop, and myself that just has a passion for this stuff and want nothing in return for our participation.  We have nothing to sell, and nothing to gain by being here.  Some of us are here because some of our friends couldn't meet the social standards of other sites and we enjoy having lively bantor with these guys, but that doesn't mean we don't know and respect each other. 

[TN]

I'm surprised the EBCM hasn't patched him in. 

[mayor]

EBCM?   

[sadunbar]

yea, I think that part is becoming more apparent to some of us newer folks.  I think the other thing that gets lost in translation is the locals seem to feel that anyone that just shows up has an agenda.  There's guys like max, tsani, turboprop, and myself that just has a passion for this stuff and want nothing in return for our participation.  We have nothing to sell, and nothing to gain by being here.  Some of us are here because some of our friends couldn't meet the social standards of other sites and we enjoy having lively bantor with these guys, but that doesn't mean we don't know and respect each other. 

Not really.  If you notice, in other areas of the forum outside the tuning threads, there are new members to the site every day.  Most introduce themselves in the "New Member Introduction" and all who do are welcomed with open arms.  Take a look and see...    

I won't deny a few of those who recently began participating from the other site may not have been welcomed in the same manner, but the integration of these few into the site took a much different road also...  IMO, those who conduct themselves in a civil manner, like yourself, will enjoy their experience on the site and will enjoy meeting the membership.  Those who don't conduct themselves in a civil manner, may not...


EBCM?  Well, Twolane should probably explain it...   

[Max Headflow]

Mayor, Ed, Tsani, and other from HTT, no need to defend my writing abilities..

When getting answers like this, it's real hard not to appear condescending..

Being married to a TTS is like being married to a rich woman that owns a liqueur store and a Harley dealership.
I'm sure there are those that could screw up even a sweet arrangement like that.

Not a whole lot of technical content there!


BTW I prefer to be called an A$$hole..

Max.

[DtyHarry]

you guys ought to shake hands, agree to disagree, and move on to another topic here...

Harry

[cvofbme]

BTW I prefer to be called an A$$hole..   that's not what was said by Hoist in the below thread

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=22663.msg533692#msg533692

[9 1/2 Beers]

I am Locking this thread