www.CVOHARLEY.com
CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: Fullsac Performance on April 23, 2017, 11:58:08 AM
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This will be a series of on going dyno testing being done on one specific bike. Many exhaust test, the good and the bad, cam changes ect. All comments and questions related are encouraged and welcomed.
Yesterday a good customer of ours showed up at our front door with a brand new 2017 107 Road Glide on his trailer with a freshly installed SE Stage IV 114 kit. He looked upset? He said, I had Harley install the Stage IV kit and they stole all the bottom end power and put it at the top. So into the dyno room we go. A half dozen pulls later I was almost in disbelief. He was right, torque robbery everywhere you ride. Seven cubic inches bigger, 11-1 compression, and it makes less power than stock below 3200 RPM? That's not easy to do people. Lol.. He said, , I gotta go, fix the TQ curve, slammed his door and drove away. But before he did he said, oh ya, keep it as long as you want. Trying not to act excited, I said ok, but this might take a while to fix. Quite a while indeed. :yes: :yes:
So here's the baseline pull from our new 2017 Stage IV 114 test mule, and a run from my bone stock 2017 107. Both pulls 5th gear, hitting the speed limiter.
Heavy damage to the Low end for sure, but I think it' salvageable, I have a few ideas! Lets start with a TTS tune up.
Steve@fullsac.com
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WOW :o
Look forward to seeing the next dyno sheet posted....
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WOW :o
Look forward to seeing the next dyno sheet posted..
Are you ready? Here it is!
TTS Tune up! What a difference! But still a turd on the bottom end.
Steve
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Do you ever wake up in the middle of the night with a great idea? :'(
This is a stock 2017 front half with my own back half. 2-1. The dyno will tell us shortly of any greatness or lack there of...
Any predictions?
Steve@fullsac.com
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Are you ready? Here it is!
TTS Tune up! What a difference! But still a turd on the bottom end.
Steve
Better but we know there's more in there. So again, I look forward to the next dyno sheet you post.....I have the faith in you :P
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I would like to see an overlay of the three pulls shown.
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I would like to see an overlay of the three pulls shown.
The basic function of the dyno is to gather and record data for before and after comparisions. Its up to the person in the "know", to interpret and present the data in a such a fashion as to not be misleading. The first two runs are apples and apples, as delivered bikes from the dealer, with speed and rpm limiters.
The last run with TTS Tuning is really not a level or fair comparison to the others. I turned off the speed limiter and raised the rev limiter. Overlaying runs with different speed and RPM limiters is not comparing on the same scale. Very misleading and unethical if being used in a profit driven manor. The TTS tuned run is the new baseline. To me it represents a bone stock 2017 114 stage IV, with a much needed software update.
Hardware update is next.
Steve@fullsac.com
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Damn :-X :-X
First & second runs with same head pipes & mufflers, what's the brand? It was tuned by dealer or no? calibration was correct when it came to you or flashed with something else?
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Damn :-X :-X
First & second runs with same head pipes & mufflers, what's the brand? It was tuned by dealer or no? calibration was correct when it came to you or flashed with something else?
Run 4 is a bone stock 2017 107 oil cooled Road Glide as delivered.
Run 9 is a another identical 2017 RG with Harleys Stage IV 114 kit installed, also as delivered by the dealer with stock headpipe and Street Cannons. This chart represents what Harley pushes put the door before anybody else touches it. Pretty obvious why the aftermarket does so well. Lots of hidden potential inside the Stage IV, just going to take some dyno time to sort it out
Steve@fullsac.com
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steve your right ...here's my stage iv dealer installed dealer tune etc ..dealer installed fuel moto head and re tuned look at the difference with aftermarket stuff these m8 engine's are sleep beast just begging to be awakin
https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=111647.0
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steve your right ...here's my stage iv dealer installed dealer tune etc ..dealer installed fuel moto head and re tuned look at the difference with aftermarket stuff these m8 engine's are sleep beast just begging to be awakin
https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=111647.0
Sleeping Giant for sure. I did a lot of exhaust testing today, this is where it ended. The bottom end is terrible. Good powerband for a drag bike, useless for Touring. Replacing the SE 515 cam next with a SE447. I need to get those numbers switched around.
Steve@fullsac.com
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my bike is the same way as well
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As some are aware, I did my Stage 4 build but used the HD stage 3 cam, jackpot head pipe and Fullsac 2 inch baffles. Tuned with a TTS. I am pleased. Torque is 100+ from 2200 on up to 6k. Bike is not loud but sounds solid. Interestingly it actually idles like a HD should rather than that 1200 RPM idle that is common to the newer bikes. I suspect I could get mildly better numbers with an aftermarket cam, but for the riding I do the bike does everything I want and actually does it quite well.
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As some are aware, I did my Stage 4 build but used the HD stage 3 cam, jackpot head pipe and Fullsac 2 inch baffles. Tuned with a TTS. I am pleased. Torque is 100+ from 2200 on up to 6k. Bike is not loud but sounds solid. Interestingly it actually idles like a HD should rather than that 1200 RPM idle that is common to the newer bikes. I suspect I could get mildly better numbers with an aftermarket cam, but for the riding I do the bike does everything I want and actually does it quite well.
From what I have seen, that was a lot better choice than the 515. The one disadvantage all of the SE cams have, is the fact that there were designed and required to pass an emissions standard. That usually sacrifices best performance at some point. I'm rethinking the 447 plan. I think I will give TR at Tman a call today.
Steve@fullsac.com
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After a couple of attempts with the M8 Stage IV the 515 cam was very weak below 3500, put stock header pipe on, lost about 5lb tq and hp, but throttle response felt better, cam change great feel now big improvement
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After a couple of attempts with the M8 Stage IV the 515 cam was very weak below 3500, put stock header pipe on, lost about 5lb tq and hp, but throttle response felt better, cam change great feel now big improvement
This dyno chart is after the cam swap? To what cam?
Thanks!
Steve@fullsac.com
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TMAN M8-226
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TMAN M8-226
Tman 226 with a stock headpipe. Got, it thanks!
Steve
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Jackpot 212 head pipe and exhaust vision tuner on a 107 stage iv
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114 update
We've had some downtime waiting on parts. After chatting with TR from Tman, I went with his new 226 cam. A set of 4.185 Mahle pistons from Suburban Speed are due any day. These will bore into the 114 barrels and bring the final displacement to 120 CI. These same diameter pistons in a CVO 114 motor with the 4.5 stroke. and you end up at 124 CI! With the M8 platform, its very cost effective to bolt on big cubes with a simple bore job of the stock barrels. I think we will be seeing quite a few M8 CVO 124 builds in the near future. :2vrolijk_21:
Steve@fullsac.com
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114 update
We've had some downtime waiting on parts. After chatting with TR from Tman, I went with his new 226 cam. A set of 4.185 Mahle pistons from Suburban Speed are due any day. These will bore into the 114 barrels and bring the final displacement to 120 CI. These same diameter pistons in a CVO 114 motor with the 4.5 stroke. and you end up at 124 CI! With the M8 platform, its very cost effective to bolt on big cubes with a simple bore job of the stock barrels. I think we will be seeing quite a few M8 CVO 124 builds in the near future. :2vrolijk_21:
Steve@fullsac.com
The 124 sounds great, just looking at Suburban speed kits. With a well match cam it should make great power for a touring bike.
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The 124 sounds great, just looking at Suburban speed kits. With a well match cam it should make great power for a touring bike.
The M8 so far has shown no HP per cube advantage over the Twin Cam motor. The nay sayers were right! But when you combine it's smooth and quiet manor with the ease of increasing the cubes, it has every advantage over the Twin Cam. My 107 is gaining 10 cubes with a piston kit and a bore job. That's just too easy. As a Touring platform it's hands down Harley's best to date. Over the next year the good cocktails of parts will be well known. The parts to avoid are already surfacing. Anybody need a low mile SE 515 cam?
Steve@fullsac.com
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The M8 so far has shown no HP per cube advantage over the Twin Cam motor. The nay sayers were right! But when you combine it's smooth and quiet manor with the ease of increasing the cubes, it has every advantage over the Twin Cam. My 107 is gaining 10 cubes with a piston kit and a bore job. That's just too easy. As a Touring platform it's hands down Harley's best to date. Over the next year the good cocktails of parts will be well known. The parts to avoid are already surfacing. Anybody need a low mile SE 515 cam?
Steve@fullsac.com
Even so, looks to me like a 124 inch M8 from a 114 would be less money in parts than a 117 from a 110. Also the smoother motor is a big plus. I would think 135 square out of a 124 M8 could be built as a reliable cross country bike
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Even so, looks to me like a 124 inch M8 from a 114 would be less money in parts than a 117 from a 110. Also the smoother motor is a big plus. I would think 135 square out of a 124 M8 could be built as a reliable cross country bike
Getting 135 squared is yet to be seen, dunno if a .030 headgasket / and cutting .25 off the heads will be enough to get there at least not without the help of dyno that is happy or games. I'd expect to see less. Then the crank becomes a concern.
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Getting 135 squared is yet to be seen, dunno if a .030 headgasket / and cutting .25 off the heads will be enough to get there at least not without the help of dyno that is happy or games. I'd expect to see less. Then the crank becomes a concern.
Theoretically, the M8 Heads should support bigger #s than the TC 2 Valve Heads,,,
'Guess we'll find out when The Aftermarket R&D catches up :nixweiss:
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Ed,
You have to consider that you have a limited area you can remove with the water jackets so that is a limit on how much you can shave the heads. Why many are only taking 20-25 off the 16/17's with the 117 kits. On the 117 for instance all things being equal most are seeing 120/126 range add 7 with a typical 1.10 to 1 upgrade on headwork cubes and you end up 128/134. is it close yes, but those extra's cost money and all the parts being right. Not saying it wont happen, just caution in the wind to not get oversold. Would want to see dynosheets from the same dyno without and with headwork to not see the overall numbers but actual gains.
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Getting 135 squared is yet to be seen, dunno if a .030 headgasket / and cutting .25 off the heads will be enough to get there at least not without the help of dyno that is happy or games. I'd expect to see less. Then the crank becomes a concern.
1.1 HP and TQ per cube is already happening. A 124" M8 will make those numbers with off the shelf parts. A chart was sent to me a from Fairbault HD, 130 squared from a 120" M8 was done with a TTS 200 cam, SE heads and 64 TB. Made 125 Ft pounds at 2500 RPM too. I should have my 120" with the Tman 226 on the dyno by weekend. I will be real disappointed if I don't see at least 130 at both ends. By the way, the compression is 11.2 with a .030 gask. I think we have enough with out cutting anything.
Steve@fullsac.com
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Should be an interested build. Looking forward to the outcome. Still don't know much about the M8 and trying to stay ignorant!
JW
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Should be an interested build. Looking forward to the outcome. Still don't know much about the M8 and trying to stay ignorant!
JW
The best way to stay like that is not to ride one! What happens is, your body gets subconsciously adjusted to less vibration and engine noise. At first you will try to tell yourself its not really any better, I don't need one. You can continue to do that on short trips. Then you go for that all day ride. Jump back on the old TC and you immediately want to switch back. Its amazing how good the stereo sounds when it's not competing with the engine . Avoid riding one for a full day, that's when the real damage happens.
Steve@fullsac.com
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Thx for the tip. I'm pretty good at staying ignorant!
Seriously, I'll be watching the build. All three of my TC scoots are getting up there in miles.
JW
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Can't imagine the effects of Lexy getting jealous of a new bike joining the stable.
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Here's the last piece to the puzzle getting finished up. 2017 Fullsac MX Pipe with full round crossover.
Steve@fullsac.com
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Ed,
You have to consider that you have a limited area you can remove with the water jackets so that is a limit on how much you can shave the heads. Why many are only taking 20-25 off the 16/17's with the 117 kits. On the 117 for instance all things being equal most are seeing 120/126 range add 7 with a typical 1.10 to 1 upgrade on headwork cubes and you end up 128/134. is it close yes, but those extra's cost money and all the parts being right. Not saying it wont happen, just caution in the wind to not get oversold. Would want to see dynosheets from the same dyno without and with headwork to not see the overall numbers but actual gains.
'Totally Agree,,,
I was thinking more along the lines of Cam, Exhaust, Piston (Dome) and Port Development for the 4 Valve / Dual Plug M8 ,,, not necessarily shaving the Heads... When there are 2 Points of Ignition,,, Domes might become more "friendly" :nixweiss:
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Here's the last piece to the puzzle getting finished up. 2017 Fullsac MX Pipe with full round crossover.
Steve@fullsac.com
Looking good on that head pipe. How is it working?
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Looking good on that head pipe. How is it working?
Best performing M8 dual exit pipe in the industry. I wasn't releasing it until it was. :2vrolijk_21:
Steve@fullsac.com
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Best performing M8 dual exit pipe in the industry. I wasn't releasing it until it was. :2vrolijk_21:
Steve@fullsac.com
Thats what I wanted to hear. Looking forward to it.
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Glad to see you so hard at it Steve! Thanx for being such a generous pioneer for us here on this site.
Kelly
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Thanks Kelly!
Another late night. The 120 is all buttoned up. The 64mm TB looks huge. Almost dyno time! :bananarock:
Steve@fullsac.com
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Should make gobs of power, but at 11.2 CR how are you going to keep that monster cool in mid summer heat?
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Should make gobs of power, but at 11.2 CR how are you going to keep that monster cool in mid summer heat?
The M8 is 10.5 comp stock!
I have an OEM fan for the oil cooler ordered. Its a small detail that Harley only put on the Trike and Police models.
Imagine that.
Steve@fullsac.com
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Fired up the 120 last night and got a few pulls in.
Early indications lead me to believe we might just squeek in that 130 squared hurdle today. :2vrolijk_21:
Seeing 130 TQ at 3K. lol... There's a few more in it. Lots more tuning today.
Steve@fullsac.com
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This helped a little.
Steve@fullsac.com
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Very Nice torque. That will be a blast to ride, I love motors with great torque like that.
Good looking head pipe also.
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Very Nice torque. That will be a blast to ride, I love motors with great torque like that.
Good looking head pipe also.
That was with 2.0 baffles. Going to test a pair of 1.75s today and see how early I can get the TQ to peak.
Just getting started.
Steve@fullsac.com
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That was with 2.0 baffles. Going to test a pair of 1.75s today and see how early I can get the TQ to peak.
Just getting started.
Steve@fullsac.com
Nice. This will be interesting to see. I love good torque down low, makes a bike easy to ride, and lots of fun. I just love my King and all its low end torque.
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Nice. This will be interesting to see. I love good torque down low, makes a bike easy to ride, and lots of fun. I just love my King and all its low end torque.
I honestly could care less if it makes 130 HP or not. I just want to see the torque as hi and early as possible. :2vrolijk_21:
Steve@fullsac.com
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I'm with you on that Steve. At this rate you are going to cost me money!!
BigLew
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This one did not disappoint! Good cocktail of off the shelf parts that made huge TQ very early. Over 130 TQ at 3000 RPM!
127 HP / 137 TQ with a very safe tune. 12.5 AFR at WOT.
Parts list
120" 4.185 Mahle piston kit from Suburban Speed
SE CNC heads, SE 64 TB, 5.5 injectors, SE Heavy Breather AC
Tman 226 cam
Fullsac MX Pipe
Fullsac 2.0 baffles
SE 10 disc clutch
TTS Mastertune
Special Thanks to Chris at Western Fab for riding with a Fullsac!
Steve@fullsac.com
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NICE!!!!
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This one did not disappoint! Good cocktail of off the shelf parts that made huge TQ very early. Over 130 TQ at 3000 RPM!
127 HP / 137 TQ with a very safe tune. 12.5 AFR at WOT.
120" 4.185 Mahle piston kit from Suburban Speed
SE CNC heads, SE 64 TB, 5.5 injectors, SE Heavy Breather AC
Tman 226 cam
Fullsac MX Pipe
Fullsac 2.0 baffles
SE 10 disc clutch
TTS Mastertune
Special Thanks to Chris at Western Fab for riding with a Fullsac!
Steve@fullsac.com
This would be a fun ride......even for a slow, overly cautious rider like myself! :P
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Wow Steve, Pretty Work!
:2vrolijk_21:
YB
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This would be a fun ride......even for a slow, overly cautious rider like myself! :P
I've ridden with you Pal. If you had this, you would be draggin floor boards and gone!
Steve@fullsac.com
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This would be a fun ride......even for a slow, overly cautious rider like myself! :P
:huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
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Does your new head pipe use stock heat shields?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Does your new head pipe use stock heat shields?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes! And they fit perfectly.
Steve@fullsac.com
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This one did not disappoint! Good cocktail of off the shelf parts that made huge TQ very early. Over 130 TQ at 3000 RPM!
127 HP / 137 TQ with a very safe tune. 12.5 AFR at WOT.
Parts list
120" 4.185 Mahle piston kit from Suburban Speed
SE CNC heads, SE 64 TB, 5.5 injectors, SE Heavy Breather AC
Tman 226 cam
Fullsac MX Pipe
Fullsac 2.0 baffles
SE 10 disc clutch
TTS Mastertune
Special Thanks to Chris at Western Fab for riding with a Fullsac!
Steve@fullsac.com
That is impressive! :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: Good to know what these engines are capable of when someone who knows how wakes them up!
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This one did not disappoint! Good cocktail of off the shelf parts that made huge TQ very early. Over 130 TQ at 3000 RPM!
127 HP / 137 TQ with a very safe tune. 12.5 AFR at WOT.
Parts list
120" 4.185 Mahle piston kit from Suburban Speed
SE CNC heads, SE 64 TB, 5.5 injectors, SE Heavy Breather AC
Tman 226 cam
Fullsac MX Pipe
Fullsac 2.0 baffles
SE 10 disc clutch
TTS Mastertune
Special Thanks to Chris at Western Fab for riding with a Fullsac!
Steve@fullsac.com
NICE :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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Wow that is very nice Steve. I know that is a blast to ride. 8)