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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: Pan1 on September 08, 2019, 07:20:51 PM

Title: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: Pan1 on September 08, 2019, 07:20:51 PM
Have there been issues with 2020 sumping or has HD fixed it with the latest oul pump?
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: bbrown on September 08, 2019, 10:06:43 PM
Very odd.....but none in this area
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: Rooster on September 09, 2019, 09:56:20 AM
I'm sure this years issues will show up soon :)
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on September 11, 2019, 08:06:20 AM
I have yet to see some one post about their new 2020 CVO good or bad...
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: grc on September 11, 2019, 08:54:17 AM
I have yet to see some one post about their new 2020 CVO good or bad...

I haven't seen many posts from people saying they bought a 2020 yet, much less talking about good or bad results.  If dealerships in the rest of the country are anything like the ones here in the Midwest, they are sitting on a significant inventory of 2018 and 2019 bikes and the 2020's are starting to collect dust as well.  The bloom is definitely off the rose around here.

Jerry
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: Rooster on September 11, 2019, 09:29:26 AM
Waiting to hear with popcorn ready.
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: GB506 on September 11, 2019, 03:29:38 PM
I haven't seen many posts from people saying they bought a 2020 yet, much less talking about good or bad results.  If dealerships in the rest of the country are anything like the ones here in the Midwest, they are sitting on a significant inventory of 2018 and 2019 bikes and the 2020's are starting to collect dust as well.  The bloom is definitely off the rose around here.

Jerry

I count five new CVO bikes total - all 2019 - at H-D dealers in the western half of WI. Three of them are at La Crosse H-D. That doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of inventory to me.

As a 2019 CVO SG owner, I’ve been watching this forum closely for sumping reports and it seems there has been a marked decline between this time last year and now. I’m hoping that means the problem is being slowly mitigated. Whatever the case, sumping reports on the site seem to be on the decline based on my anecdotal analysis.




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Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: bbrown on September 11, 2019, 04:07:49 PM
I count five new CVO bikes total - all 2019 - at H-D dealers in the western half of WI. Three of them are at La Crosse H-D. That doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of inventory to me.

As a 2019 CVO SG owner, I’ve been watching this forum closely for sumping reports and it seems there has been a marked decline between this time last year and now. I’m hoping that means the problem is being slowly mitigated. Whatever the case, sumping reports on the site seem to be on the decline based on my anecdotal analysis.


i agree




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Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: blacktop on September 11, 2019, 05:25:35 PM
 8) Let's hope it's in the past!
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on September 12, 2019, 08:38:17 PM
I count five new CVO bikes total - all 2019 - at H-D dealers in the western half of WI. Three of them are at La Crosse H-D. That doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of inventory to me.

As a 2019 CVO SG owner, I’ve been watching this forum closely for sumping reports and it seems there has been a marked decline between this time last year and now. I’m hoping that means the problem is being slowly mitigated. Whatever the case, sumping reports on the site seem to be on the decline based on my anecdotal analysis.




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No 19 CVO's on the floor at my local dealer, and only 10 or 11 2019 tour bikes on the floor.  They have sold two 2020 CVO trikes, and a 20 CVO Limited and a 20 CVO Street glide.

Yet no one on the forum is posting about there new 2020 CVO, usually several posts about new ones by now.
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: iski on September 12, 2019, 10:34:50 PM
No 19 CVO's on the floor at my local dealer, and only 10 or 11 2019 tour bikes on the floor.  They have sold two 2020 CVO trikes, and a 20 CVO Limited and a 20 CVO Street glide.

Yet no one on the forum is posting about there new 2020 CVO, usually several posts about new ones by now.

Just a guess on why no 2020 posts yet.  When I bought my first CVO I heard about this forum from the dealer.  Considering for several years now what the average M8 post is - problems and troubles compounded by various dealer BS - am guessing not as many are directed here by dealers these days.  Eventually CVO buyers will find their way here anyway, from other forum members.  Of course I could be wrong.  :nixweiss:
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on September 13, 2019, 08:40:14 PM
Just a guess on why no 2020 posts yet.  When I bought my first CVO I heard about this forum from the dealer.  Considering for several years now what the average M8 post is - problems and troubles compounded by various dealer BS - am guessing not as many are directed here by dealers these days.  Eventually CVO buyers will find their way here anyway, from other forum members.  Of course I could be wrong.  :nixweiss:
I'm sure that is some.

Seems to me in years past, by now many existing forum members had bought new bikes, or were waiting on one.  Example in  15 and 17 several posts from members about new bikes in the first 3 or 4 weeks of release.
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: yobtaf103 on November 08, 2019, 06:31:13 AM
LOL the irony, now HD has them sorted, no one wants to buy !
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: Fullsac Performance on November 18, 2019, 09:34:02 AM
There's an old saying, No news is good news. That very well may be the case in regards to the sumping issue and the 2020 Harley's. Once again Harley has made an oil pump change. Did they get it right this time? They have changed it so many times it has become a social media joke in the Harley groups. Maybe it's time to acknowledge that the sumping reports have all but vanished and look at what they actually changed this time. Here's some info a very good inside source shared with me. For 2020, the lobe count on the scavenge rotor has been reduced. The engineer claimed it changes the phasing of the suction pulse from the oil pump and the negative pressure in the crankcase when the pistons are going up. Apparently when these two opposite pulses get lined up together, the pump looses it's prime and starts to cavitate. Makes sense, but it almost sounds too simple. Same question, any confirmable reports of a 2020 sumping? Can I start doing big bore kits and cam installs again?

Steve@fullsac.com
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: J.D. on November 18, 2019, 11:53:28 AM
Not to nit pick but that's not cavitation but certainly starving the scavenging intake is indeed what sounds like is happening on those sumping engines.  Hopefully they've got it sorted out and the new design is a direct retrofit into the older M8s.
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: Fullsac Performance on November 18, 2019, 09:07:02 PM
Not to nit pick but that's not cavitation but certainly starving the scavenging intake is indeed what sounds like is happening on those sumping engines.  Hopefully they've got it sorted out and the new design is a direct retrofit into the older M8s.

So your saying, when the engine is sumping, the scavenge oil intake that is at the bottom of the crankcase, flooded in oil to the point that it is touching the bottom of the flywheels and dragging the motor down, is being starved of oil ????

SG
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: J.D. on November 19, 2019, 08:35:20 AM
Harley has supposedly properly sized this oil pump and revised it multiple times.  If so, then "something" is preventing the oil from being picked up by the pump.  Not sure anyone knows exactly why.

Cavitation is when the pressure inside the pump drops so low that the fluid momentarily vaporizes then returns to its liquid state, making noise like it's grinding up rocks and ultimately damaging the pump's internal parts.  I don't see that happening here.

Hopefully MoCo engineering understands what is going on and this latest design solves the problem.
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: kojak on November 19, 2019, 03:26:11 PM
I seldom post on CVOHARLEY these days due to the fixation with sumping these past 2 years. Im happy with my 2017 cvo linited with 22k miles on it that have been trouble free.
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: GB506 on November 19, 2019, 03:58:58 PM
I handed over my 19 to the dealer last week to have them look at sumping issues. Interestingly, I can (somewhat) consistently reproduce the problem. Read on if you're interested.

Attached is a map of a portion of La Crosse County, WI. Position #1 is at the top of a bluff at the mouth of County Road FO, which has some nice corners to carve, and which loses about 460 feet of elevation by the time you get to position #2, roughly 2 miles down the hill. After attacking the corners in a very spirited way, I slow down to highway speed at position #2 and and by position #3, roughly another 2 miles down the road, the bike exhibits power loss and high heat, which I assume is sumping. I stop at position #4, a golf course, to let the bike idle and it clears up in 5 minutes or so.

About 350 of the 460 feet of the elevation drop occurs in the first 3000 feet of road between #1 and #2.

I've had this happen 3 or 4 times, always in the same spot and in the same manner. But the bike has never exhibited this behavior anywhere else and at no other time during the 5k miles I put on this year.

So I explain this to the dealer and I'm waiting for them to let me know what they're going to do. I want them to give me the 2020 pump. We shall see.
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: fastfreddy on November 19, 2019, 06:09:28 PM
Harley has supposedly properly sized this oil pump and revised it multiple times.  If so, then "something" is preventing the oil from being picked up by the pump.  Not sure anyone knows exactly why.

Cavitation is when the pressure inside the pump drops so low that the fluid momentarily vaporizes then returns to its liquid state, making noise like it's grinding up rocks and ultimately damaging the pump's internal parts.  I don't see that happening here.

Hopefully MoCo engineering understands what is going on and this latest design solves the problem.
ill try … the cavitation your describing is from a centrifugal pump, gear rotor pumps don't usually cause cavitation, HDs issue is airyated oil from the crank shaft passing thru the oil, that is not suppose to be there, that is better known as windage. think I got that right  :nixweiss:    and the pulses from the pistons moving up and down are pulling the oil from the inlet of their pump, not allowing the pump to remove oil from the sump area causing it to overfill, better known as sumping… let me know if Im wrong
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: Pan1 on November 19, 2019, 10:59:32 PM
Two thoughts on the “Sumping” issue.  Since some bikes have the issue and some do not , I wonder if a study has been done on piston ring sealing or leakage as a contributing factor.  Secondly, if the upward piston travel is causing  a vacuum in the sump, pulling oil away from the pickup then a simple crankcase vent would fix the problem. 
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: grc on November 20, 2019, 04:14:53 PM
Two thoughts on the “Sumping” issue.  Since some bikes have the issue and some do not , I wonder if a study has been done on piston ring sealing or leakage as a contributing factor.  Secondly, if the upward piston travel is causing  a vacuum in the sump, pulling oil away from the pickup then a simple crankcase vent would fix the problem.

A simple crankcase vent would be illegal, just like they have been since the 1960's and 70's for automobiles.  Another theory I've seen, including a video by an aftermarket company I can't seem to remember right now, is that the oil is "attaching" itself to the rapidly rotating flywheels, leading to the loss of power AND not allowing the oil to flow to the crankcase oil return.  They installed scrapers with a very small gap to the flywheels to strip the attached oil and allow it to drain down, claiming that fixed the problem.  Someone around here will probably remember this video and the name of the company.

The issue came about right after Harley redesigned the cases for the new M8 engines.  The Twin Cams only had this problem when the scavenge side of the oil pumps became damaged and could not keep up with the amount of oil being pumped into the engine.  The M8's have had the problem with no abnormal wear or damage to oil pumps.  There is obviously something that changed, and that something is the cases and the oiling system.  They've tried at least five redesigns of oil pumps, and unless they hired rookie engineers from the lowest rated school on the planet, I don't see the pump being the root cause.  Oil pumps have been around for a very long time, and the basics that determine their performance haven't changed.  There is no reason for the oil pump design to suddenly become no good.  I'm still betting on the changes to the cases being the real root cause, but everything is still guesswork because the folks at Harley won't share the real cause with anyone.  Nothing new, they've been trying to hide their mistakes from everyone for a very long time, and in many cases the best they've done is apply a short term band-aid and stuck the customers with the problems.  I see no reason to believe this situation is any different.

Jerry
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: rayson56 on November 20, 2019, 08:45:56 PM

A simple crankcase vent would be illegal, just like they have been since the 1960's and 70's for automobiles.  Another theory I've seen, including a video by an aftermarket company I can't seem to remember right now, is that the oil is "attaching" itself to the rapidly rotating flywheels, leading to the loss of power AND not allowing the oil to flow to the crankcase oil return.  They installed scrapers with a very small gap to the flywheels to strip the attached oil and allow it to drain down, claiming that fixed the problem.  Someone around here will probably remember this video and the name of the company.


Pretty sure that was T-Man's video Jerry
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: grc on November 20, 2019, 10:42:13 PM
A simple crankcase vent would be illegal, just like they have been since the 1960's and 70's for automobiles.  Another theory I've seen, including a video by an aftermarket company I can't seem to remember right now, is that the oil is "attaching" itself to the rapidly rotating flywheels, leading to the loss of power AND not allowing the oil to flow to the crankcase oil return.  They installed scrapers with a very small gap to the flywheels to strip the attached oil and allow it to drain down, claiming that fixed the problem.  Someone around here will probably remember this video and the name of the company.


Pretty sure that was T-Man's video Jerry

I'm thinking you are right.  I've never heard anything about the theory or the proposed fix since I saw the original video, but I thought it was fairly convincing when I saw it some time ago.

Jerry
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: johnmowcop on November 21, 2019, 12:24:07 PM
A simple crankcase vent would be illegal, just like they have been since the 1960's and 70's for automobiles.  Another theory I've seen, including a video by an aftermarket company I can't seem to remember right now, is that the oil is "attaching" itself to the rapidly rotating flywheels, leading to the loss of power AND not allowing the oil to flow to the crankcase oil return.  They installed scrapers with a very small gap to the flywheels to strip the attached oil and allow it to drain down, claiming that fixed the problem.  Someone around here will probably remember this video and the name of the company.

The issue came about right after Harley redesigned the cases for the new M8 engines.  The Twin Cams only had this problem when the scavenge side of the oil pumps became damaged and could not keep up with the amount of oil being pumped into the engine.  The M8's have had the problem with no abnormal wear or damage to oil pumps.  There is obviously something that changed, and that something is the cases and the oiling system.  They've tried at least five redesigns of oil pumps, and unless they hired rookie engineers from the lowest rated school on the planet, I don't see the pump being the root cause.  Oil pumps have been around for a very long time, and the basics that determine their performance haven't changed.  There is no reason for the oil pump design to suddenly become no good.  I'm still betting on the changes to the cases being the real root cause, but everything is still guesswork because the folks at Harley won't share the real cause with anyone.  Nothing new, they've been trying to hide their mistakes from everyone for a very long time, and in many cases the best they've done is apply a short term band-aid and stuck the customers with the problems.  I see no reason to believe this situation is any different.

Jerry

I posted the below some time ago. I presume this can contribute to the premise raised by Jerry.

As a point of interest.

A precedent has already been made for sumping, about 65 years ago, it was called over oiling then. The bike was a Panther 120. See this link:  https://sump-publishing.co.uk/panther.htm

The "sump-publishing" is entirely coincidental but apt at this moment in time..

If you do not want to read the article this is an extract that refers to the issue and the resolution:

"One major problem of the Model 120 was over-oiling. Panther’s long established oil-scavenge system incorporates a primitive, but (until the Model 120) effective knife-edge weir in which the flywheels scoop oil from the engine cases into the integral oil tank (wedge shaped chamber forward of the timing chest). The clearance is only 60 thousandths of an inch."

Reading the many "sumping" posts one of the solutions presented is in effect a scrapper forming a weir, which coincidently has a clearance of 0.060" - same as the above solution. small world isn't it.

Seems like all the high falutin engineers at Harley need to relate to history to solve problems that have already been encountered by others. I bet the Panther solution was developed by a fella with a pencil and a bit of paper in a workshop, maybe discussing it with a colleague. How many "Engineers" have Harley had looking at the issue an still not resolved it.

JohnT
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: johnmowcop on November 21, 2019, 03:17:21 PM
This more detail from the above referenced article = it does sound familiar?

One major problem of the Model 120 was over-oiling. Panther’s long established oil-scavenge system incorporates a primitive, but (until the Model 120) effective knife-edge weir in which the flywheels scoop oil from the engine cases into the integral oil tank (wedge shaped chamber forward of the timing chest). The clearance is only 60 thousandths of an inch.
 

 
However, when the earlier Model 100’s engine stroke was increased from 100mm to 106m (to create the Model 120), the flywheels were trimmed to provide clearance for the longer stroke piston—which in turn reduced the scavenging  effect and led to over-oiling.
 
Some owners have extended the oil-weir to rectify this problem, so ask if it’s been done on the bike you’re interested in. Also, some Panthers have been fitted with a Volvo car piston (see Panther Owner’s Club for details) which has a better oil control ring. It’s an easy mod, but a specially machined gudgeon pin bush will be required to facilitate it. Keep in mind, too, that a Volvo piston will also give slightly higher compression with increased risk of pinking. So use the best fuel you can get.

JohnT
 
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: Jock on January 15, 2020, 09:11:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QolhZGpFULQ
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: GMR-PERFORMANCE on January 24, 2020, 05:55:57 PM
We just pulled a zippers 124 kit down S&S billet pump and  plate followed HD method for checking either way 28 OZ of oil swapped pump to 2020 it dropped to 6.5 .

Its hit or miss as there are other items that cause it . Poor ring seal being a major issue .
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on January 25, 2020, 07:30:44 AM
We just pulled a zippers 124 kit down S&S billet pump and  plate followed HD method for checking either way 28 OZ of oil swapped pump to 2020 it dropped to 6.5 .

Its hit or miss as there are other items that cause it . Poor ring seal being a major issue .

More good information, thank you.
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: yobtaf103 on January 26, 2020, 11:56:16 PM
We just pulled a zippers 124 kit down S&S billet pump and  plate followed HD method for checking either way 28 OZ of oil swapped pump to 2020 it dropped to 6.5 .

Its hit or miss as there are other items that cause it . Poor ring seal being a major issue .

So does the seal make a difference, seems to with the HD improved scavenge 2020 pump
S&S have also now gone with the seal on back of pump, unfortunately  have to buy a new pump to upgrade current S&S pump!
Cost effective to go with HD 2020 pump (not sure this works with S&S camplate?)
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: GMR-PERFORMANCE on January 27, 2020, 08:25:13 AM
well the 2020 pump is now a 50/50 split where as it was a 60/40 they altered the return side rotors and with the seal which is not new it seems to be working very well thus far . the sumping is odd it really is many times you left wondering what the heck is going on when there is no smoking gun
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: JONNIEROCK on January 28, 2020, 03:17:47 PM
I handed over my 19 to the dealer last week to have them look at sumping issues. Interestingly, I can (somewhat) consistently reproduce the problem. Read on if you're interested.

Attached is a map of a portion of La Crosse County, WI. Position #1 is at the top of a bluff at the mouth of County Road FO, which has some nice corners to carve, and which loses about 460 feet of elevation by the time you get to position #2, roughly 2 miles down the hill. After attacking the corners in a very spirited way, I slow down to highway speed at position #2 and and by position #3, roughly another 2 miles down the road, the bike exhibits power loss and high heat, which I assume is sumping. I stop at position #4, a golf course, to let the bike idle and it clears up in 5 minutes or so.

About 350 of the 460 feet of the elevation drop occurs in the first 3000 feet of road between #1 and #2.

I've had this happen 3 or 4 times, always in the same spot and in the same manner. But the bike has never exhibited this behavior anywhere else and at no other time during the 5k miles I put on this year.

So I explain this to the dealer and I'm waiting for them to let me know what they're going to do. I want them to give me the 2020 pump. We shall see.


          Nice area. I'm about 50 miles north of the twin cities. Couple times a year I ride to lacrosse. I really like 108 out of West Salem and head north to Melrose. please keep us updated with the results of you ride.
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: GB506 on January 30, 2020, 06:32:41 PM

          Nice area. I'm about 50 miles north of the twin cities. Couple times a year I ride to lacrosse. I really like 108 out of West Salem and head north to Melrose. please keep us updated with the results of you ride.

HD had the dealer put it on the dyno and measure fluid. Measured 4.5oz and 2oz on the two tests, below the supposed 6oz threshold HD needs to see before they would swap the pump for a 2020 version.

Deformed crank position sensor indicates high heat at some point, so they have to know I’m not BSing them.

Appealing the ruling at this point.

If I can reproduce the problem it’s only a matter of time before it goes, IMHO.



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Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: Billy on February 15, 2020, 02:46:38 PM
Sumping Solved?      Looks like no one has had a issue with sumping since the 2020  pump. Woodstock HD says they have not one sump with new pump. Hope it is true my friend is buying a new ultra .  Billy
Title: Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
Post by: J.D. on February 15, 2020, 02:52:56 PM
Only 4 model years to get the oil pump design right...maybe?  That's not too bad I guess.