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[08_ScreaminSpringer]

Ok guys very new to this BUT learning a ton daily!!
I Have a 08 softail CVO 110 im looking at head work this winter a set of stage 4s and a cam ( i think i may have to get pistons also to make to 10:5:1)  i have looked at the SE251 cam. I also price a gear drive cam and was told i need a plate to install cam all was 1400.00. Whats the down fall with the chain drives?  I don't turn the motor up hard i was told the max rpm is 6200 but i would like KILLER bottom end when i roll into it at 2200 or so i what it to pull hard.  Thanks

[rednectum]

the new style chain drives seem to work great. i beat the heck out of mine and change cams often enough to inspect the tensioners and plate. so far looks great.

you cant go wrong with gears if you have very little runout------probably out of luck with the 08 model.

check your pm.

[rednectum]

cool SE, we were typing the same answer at the same time!!!!!!

[08_ScreaminSpringer]

Thanks guy!!! So SE251 cam or other? I still want to ride alot with least problems

[rednectum]

you said you wanted the bike to hit really hard at 2200. i would go with an earlier closing cam and match compression accordingly. your head guy will have these answers, choose him wisely.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Not stepping on toes here. But I fail to see the reason to work with a crank that has excessive runout??  If the crank is bad it needs to be replaced, it is not going to get better. Over time the pinion will wear the cam plate and only grow larger in runout.  HD has increased the crank specs to huge numbers as they think it is ok for a crank to have 10 thou runout!!! ( dealer provided me with new crank runout specs)  Sorry but a bad crank is a bad crank. Sooner or later you will have problems with it. The oil pump will not be able to handle that kind of movement and will destroy itself. Why not fix the problem before it happens.  I understand that this is a touchy subject as HD gave many of you a raw deal.  There is no way I would build a engine for a customer that has 5 or 6 thou runout. It will fail given time.

Now the other issue that is not being talked about is the elogation of the postion where the cam is in the plate. The upgraded chain works great but the lack of a bushing is a problem.  Add that along with a crank that is jerking up and down side to side, there will be issues.

Not all are doing this, the ones that we have seen had 5+ crank runout. As I said over time it will break.  These issues never happend with the older engines.  We are seeing a huge change in case casting specs. When we do the timken conversions we have to measure the case height they are all over the place. This is one reason for having a crank go bad, some are spot on and are good to go others are less than what they should be this is causing the crank to be pushed to the right side of the engine in the process the rod , bushings are being forced to the side as well.  It seems that the quality control is getting worse.

[Unbalanced]

08 Screaming Springer,

I don't understand the rationale to go to stage 4 headwork / big money not cheap then throw a mediocre cam in the middle of it.   If your building it for a purpose than match the cam to the heads / intake / piston and associated parts.   

I know your looking for information, but I think you are going about this build maybe a bit backwards, in that the head guy should already know your riding style so he can mate your style to a cam / his headwork that will accomplish your end goals.   Fishing for combinations is fine, but expect that you will be trying other cam's and there could be reprocussions from the one off build.   The head builder may setup your heads to work with Cam A that he suggests, but be aware that might not work with cam B because of valve to valve clearance or spring heights, compression or whatever the reason.   I think you should step back and ask your head guy to give you a combination that is something he can show you dyno sheets and references from before you jump in and just pay the money and are disappointed after the fact.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

I agree We get customers on a regular basis that have heads that they paid big money for but have a very small chamber, and they are almost no use for a larger bore or larger lift cams. We try to build packages that will allow you to grow if you want in the future.  Example I can use a dome piston to allow less milling of the head for a smaller CI engine, then later if you decide you want to go bigger the heads can be used. Now we use a spring that will go 650 lift so that leaves some room for a big stick.

Now one more thing we cut valves and seats to work within certain cam profiles so you may have to have the valves re cut but that is minor compared to replacing heads due a 80 cc chamber.   We have a saying do it once do it right the first time. Know what you want up front if the builder you have choosen  tells you otherwise on upgrades in the future find another builder.  I would say that I get approx 40% on builds we have done where the customer now wants to go bigger, They are very happy that they have that road to travel.

[08_ScreaminSpringer]

? what is the cc on my stock cvo 110 heads? So do i need to check the run out on the crank 1st.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Well that is a good question they will run from 97cc to 103. That is the range I have seen them.

[geezerglide]

OK you folks with pre 08 Bikes,

Their is an excellent brief explanation of Chain vs. Gear Drive Cams by William Denish in this months Hot Bike on page 112.

Oh by the way the picture of the Cherry Red Bike is mine with the JIMS 120 Race engine, just a cheap plug.

geezerglide

[rednectum]

thanks yall, i was being short but diplomatic. 

[SBB]

thanks yall, i was being short but diplomatic. 

You diplomatic?

 

I like the blunt Dennis myself!

 

[Black Diamond]

Just looking for advice:

If you send the crank to Darkhorse Crankworks and put in a new cam support plate such as the R&R or the new SE aluminum billet plate (6061-T6 heat treated to T6 with pressed in bronze bushings) would you still need to spend the money on a gear drive? Would the new style chain drive get it done?

JW

[rednectum]

Just looking for advice:

If you send the crank to Darkhorse Crankworks and put in a new cam support plate such as the R&R or the new SE aluminum billet plate (6061-T6 heat treated to T6 with pressed in bronze bushings) would you still need to spend the money on a gear drive? Would the new style chain drive get it done?

JW

are you wanting to compare chain vs gear on 07-08 bikes? say something dude, i have an opinion on this.

[08_ScreaminSpringer]

The gear drive is mainly to free up power by doing away with the drag of chains..

[Hoist!]

are you wanting to compare chain vs gear on 07-08 bikes? say something dude, i have an opinion on this.

Well Dennis let's hear it.

Ya know, inquiring minds and all that!

Hoist!

[Black Diamond]

Dennis
 

are you wanting to compare chain vs gear on 07-08 bikes? say something dude, i have an opinion on this.

Yep.
I am very close to doing my build.  http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=17921.msg286227#msg286227 I would like more information on chain v gear drive comparison.

I don't build bikes/motors, I just ride em. I know my 08 has a crank issue which I hope I'm addressing with Timkin bearing and sending the crank to Darkhorse Crankworks.

I'm also looking into the cam support plate as well as the oil pump issue as additional areas of possible concern.

I know what I know. I also know what I do not know and am willing to listen to those that do. I await your opinion.

JW

[rednectum]

ok, its 4 AM and only one cup of coffee.  i look at gear vs chain in a different light since hd developed the new style hydraulic tensioners. there is little pressure on the new chain and of the new style tensioners i have seen or heard of , there has been zero wear!!

now gears are great, and almost required on pre 07 bikes.  i had to throw that in before going farther.

chain, we have seen chain drive last for about 8 years now. we have heard of a few failures and some have experienced catastrophic  oil pump damage and total engine grenade. we also have heard even more stories about the 100,000 mile or more twin cams that only had oil changes and tire/brakes. is the old style chain risky enough to switch to gears? some say just replace every 20,000 miles. some say you are riding a time bomb from day one!  anyone who has released the tensioner and held it in place with the pins knows how much pressure is on the chains! so yes, there has to be some parasitic power loss there. so------if its spring tensioned chains on pre-07 bike, i would strongly consider gear drive.

looking at the new motors, there is very little tension or parasitic loss on  the chain setup. the oil pump is much improved, no failures reported that i am aware of. seems like a good system that should be worry free. i would still inspect, or at least monitor what others are reporting, there could be a failure--its still a wearable shoe that could send abrasive chunks through your motor. i trust it.

now lets consider the runout we are seeing with the late motors, add gears without addressing runout and you are whipping the bearing surfaces, oil pump, flexing pinion gear. now you have created the time bomb you were worrying about! in this case, the chain will actually help your motor live longer!

next, lets correct runout, and go with gear drive. is lash set correctly? if not, what is happening with the gear teeth banging into each other? are microscopic pieces of hardened steel going through your motor???/ okay, lash is set correctly and shims are used for proper gear alignment. anyone seen a 100,000 mile gear drive motor yet? is lash still sorrect? cam bearings survive? my vote goes for chain because failure rate comparisons are inconclusive.

moving into the high lift, heavy valve spring, steep ramp arena common today. can the chain survive the constant snatching? if so, are the chains buffering the shock that would be sent to the bearing surfaces? now lets install gears in same environment, no runout, propr lash, hevy springs, steep ramps, etc: will the lack of a buffer actually put more side load on the bearing? will it create harmonics through the pinion that will weaken and eventually destroy the pinion/pump? i think maybe so.

in my opinion, a great setup for the new motors would be helical gears with ball bearings in the plate. the helical gears would keep bearing side load in check, and buffering would be handled by the ball bearings.

ultimate solution? anyone check out bob woods belt system? helical gears internal, belt drive external!!!!

okay-------------need more coffee, feel free to agree, disagree, flame, buy me a beer, -------------------

[hogasm]

Well Dennis let's hear it.

Ya know, inquiring minds and all that!

Hoist!

He said it Howie.......and very well I might add......only will add that my first twin cam with gear drives has over 140,000 miles on it and still is his every day commute. I don't own it anymore. Probably why it lasted soooo long

[ccr]

...okay-------------need more coffee, feel free to agree, disagree, flame, buy me a beer, -------------------

I owe you a beer - or a coffee.  You explained this is a manner that even I could understand.  Thanks.

[rednectum]

I owe you a beer - or a coffee.  You explained this is a manner that even I could understand.  Thanks.

well Mrs. WeCVO. i hope one day to meet yall. i will accept that cold beer with honor!!

[Fruitcake]

Dennis
  Yep.
I am very close to doing my build.  http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=17921.msg286227#msg286227 I would like more information on chain v gear drive comparison.

I don't build bikes/motors, I just ride em. I know my 08 has a crank issue which I hope I'm addressing with Timkin bearing and sending the crank to Darkhorse Crankworks.

I'm also looking into the cam support plate as well as the oil pump issue as additional areas of possible concern.

I know what I know. I also know what I do not know and am willing to listen to those that do. I await your opinion.

JW

How do you no you have a bad crank?
 Have you had the crank run- out checked?
 What mad you think you had a bad crank
I have a vibration at 2500 RPMs and higher on my 2007 SERK

[Black Diamond]

Dennis,

"ultimate solution? anyone check out bob woods belt system? helical gears internal, belt drive external!!!!"
Thanks for the info. I will look into this as a possibility. Also thanks for info on the new oil pump.

Fruitcake,

I know my 08 has a crank issue
Sorry. What I should have stated is I know some 07 / 08's are have a crank issue. Apparently not all of them but this is becoming a reoccurring theme. My builder has had to address at least two cranks, both on 96 cu motors. All the builders I have contacted have raised the crank issue as an area I should consider addressing.

I have had absolutely no problems with my 08 SERK. I am looking at doing an upgrade on my 110 to get out of her what she has while making her as reliable as I can afford. I have talked with Dennis in the past. I am fairly certain I will stay with the chain drive as I can not justify the cost of the gear drive based on the information I have gathered to date.

I am sorry to hear of your vibration problems. Have you talked with your service guys yet? Good Luck Always.

JW

[rednectum]

fruitcake. i have seen two reasons for the vibration, cylinder imbalance, and pipes.  the crank runout can be great with no noticable vibration!!!!!!!!!

[rednectum]

black diamond. be aware that some pipes will not clear the belt drive cams. bagger fatcats being one. supertrapp will work with minor mods, i understand road rage will work.

[Fruitcake]

fruitcake. i have seen two reasons for the vibration, cylinder imbalance, and pipes.  the crank runout can be great with no noticeable vibration!!!!!!!!!

Thanks,

My bike is going in the shop next Friday, they are going to check the motor mounts first, and than fix my oil leak on the rear cylinder. I removed my rush slipons and put my stock mufflers back on the bike and removed my PC 111. Oh and if they can't find any reason for the vibration the are going to check the Crank Run-out.

The bike only has 2,500 miles on it, it was a late 07 build, it was built in June 2007 I bought it in the middle of August.

I never had a problem with my 02 RK. And it had the 95 big bore kit, head work and Bobby Woods gear driven cams, Rinehart true duels.

Bobby Woods cams are cut by Andrews too Bobby Woods specs, I believe the gears where S&S. Some days I wish I never traded her in she was one strong pulling Bitch!   

It never failed me in 45,000 Miles

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

The cylinder imbalance is something that is seen often. We will put a kit together that is cylinders and heads and the customers alwyas tells us they think it runs smoother.  Some times a tune will help out in that area to some point, you cannot fix a poor flowing head with a tune but you may be able to smooth it out some.

[Fruitcake]

The cylinder imbalance is something that is seen often. We will put a kit together that is cylinders and heads and the customers always tells us they think it runs smoother.  Some times a tune will help out in that area to some point, you cannot fix a poor flowing head with a tune but you may be able to smooth it out some.

I had my SERK dyno tuned when I added the PCIII and it ran great no vibrations, the vibrations came on slowly over time.

She is heading in the trailer for a ride to Vermont and the HD dealer services department I will let them check it out,

I trust them, and I hope it isn't crank-run out. But ya never no!

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

WEll with HD saying that .010 runout is good hard to say what will happen. I fail to see how they can say on one hand that 10 thou runout is fine but that is triple the spec on the oil pump. Being that the oil pump has the pinion running through the pump??

[Fruitcake]

Well with HD saying that .010 runout is good hard to say what will happen. I fail to see how they can say on one hand that 10 thou runout is fine but that is triple the spec on the oil pump. Being that the oil pump has the pinion running through the pump?? :Nixie's:

0.010 thousands crank run - out is crazy! I'm a supervisor at a power plant and if I have a fan shaft or a pulley shaft out anything over 0.005 thousands I will replace it ASAP!  I will challenge HD on this one believe me.

OK back to cams, I like Bobby Woods Gear driven cams, but with this new cam system I'm not so sure you need gear driven cams? The good thing about Bobby Woods is that you can call him tell him what you have in your engine,  and he will recommend the right cut cam for your bike.

The gear driven cams on my 95 CI did make difference because the gears have a lot less slop, and the timing is far better than with the old chain driven system

[Hoist!]

0.010 thousands crank run - out is crazy! I'm a supervisor at a power plant and if I have a fan shaft or a pulley shaft out anything over 0.005 thousands I will replace it ASAP!  I will challenge HD on this one believe me.

OK back to cams, I like Bobby Woods Gear driven cams, but with this new cam system I'm not so sure you need gear driven cams? The good thing about Bobby Woods is that you can call him tell him what you have in your engine,  and he will recommend the right cut cam for your bike.

The gear driven cams on my 95 CI did make difference because the gears have a lot less slop, and the timing is far better than with the old chain driven system

Thanks for this informative thread gang! After reading all this, and talking to Brian, I think I'll keep my stock hydraulic tensioner setup, with the chain-drive CR595 cams, as is. Even though I'm striving for zero runout, with a Timkin bearing & S&S forged flywheel bottom end, where I shouldn't worry about using a gear drive, I think I'll keep it as is for awhile. I can monitor it's wear (after 8600 miles so far, no wear) and convert to gear drive anytime I want. But right now, that 700 bucks will pay for the Zumo 550!

Hoist!

[sadunbar]

Thanks for this informative thread gang! After reading all this, and talking to Brian, I think I'll keep my stock hydraulic tensioner setup, with the chain-drive CR595 cams, as is. Even though I'm striving for zero runout, with a Timkin bearing & S&S forged flywheel bottom end, where I shouldn't worry about using a gear drive, I think I'll keep it as is for awhile. I can monitor it's wear (after 8600 miles so far, no wear) and convert to gear drive anytime I want. But right now, that 700 bucks will pay for the Zumo 550!

Hoist!

Good decision Howie... ...safe cam choice - and your gonna love the Zumo...w/XM...and get the weather option..!

later...Scott

[Hoist!]

Good decision Howie... ...safe cam choice - and your gonna love the Zumo...w/XM...and get the weather option..!

later...Scott

Thanks a lot Scott. I'm going with the weather and XM. You know me man. All or nothing!

I now see no reason to change the cams for the same performance right now!

Hoist!

[sadunbar]

Thanks a lot Scott. I'm going with the weather and XM. You know me man. All or nothing!
I now see no reason to change the cams for the same performance right now!

Hoist!

That's why we love ya! 

[REGGAB]

Thanks for this informative thread gang! After reading all this, and talking to Brian, I think I'll keep my stock hydraulic tensioner setup, with the chain-drive CR595 cams, as is. Even though I'm striving for zero runout, with a Timkin bearing & S&S forged flywheel bottom end, where I shouldn't worry about using a gear drive, I think I'll keep it as is for awhile. I can monitor it's wear (after 8600 miles so far, no wear) and convert to gear drive anytime I want. But right now, that 700 bucks will pay for the Zumo 550!

Hoist!

There ya go, Howie.  I was die hard against getting one of these things, but since I've had my ZUMO 550, I can't imagine being without it.  I even take it with me in the truck.  Punch in "NAPA," and it pulls up every one within 100 miles.  Way cool.
I'm without regret for switching to gears, but I do know the new style chain cams and the new style oil pump are leaps and bounds above what was in my engine before the mod.  Either way, you can't go wrong.

Henry

[Hoist!]

Well, another change in plans. Vern took the engine completely apart. He doesn't like how tight the cam assembly spins. It may be less tension than the old spring loaded setup. But he's still not crazy about using this 2 chain setup. So, on his recommendation, I'm going to gear drive. Much less drag than the chain drive. No tensioners to worry about, A proper crank setup will insure it will maintain proper gear alignment.

Vern told me he'd use what I want him to. After all this, since I'm not the expert, I will do as he recommends. After this is done, the entire engine will be completely blessed and backed by him. He's happy with the CycleRama and Feuling parts in the top end. So I'll have Wes make the same cams for gear drive application. I think we have the components finalized now, and will just be waiting for the CR parts to come in, to assemble it. It could be done before the holidays now. Merry Xmas to me!

Hoist!