Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All

Author Topic: Gear drive cam VS chain  (Read 14743 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

08_ScreaminSpringer

  • Junior CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 92
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2007, 10:59:20 PM »

The gear drive is mainly to free up power by doing away with the drag of chains..
Logged
08 Softail Screamin Eagle Springer with SERT and D&D fatcat Big Boar 2 into 1..

Hoist!

  • Monster
  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21634
  • This chit ain't ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!

    • CVO1: '07C FLHRSE3, BLACK ICE OF COURSE, CUSTOM 110" TC 6-SPEED +++, "CYBIL"!!!
    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
    • CVO3: 4: & 5: '85 FXWG BLACK w/CUSTOM FLAMES, 110" EVO 6-SPEED +++ CVO style!!!; '08 NSMC PROSG CUSTOM FXR BASED PRO STREET BLACK, 89" EVO 5-SPEED, VERY FAST!!!; '09 NSMC HSTBBR CUSTOM RIGID HOISTBOBBER, SILVER METALFLAKE BATES SOLO SEAT & TIN w/BLACK WISHBONE FRAME, 80" EVO (w/Shovelhead bottom end) 4-SPEED! VERY COOL!!!
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2007, 11:00:49 PM »

are you wanting to compare chain vs gear on 07-08 bikes? say something dude, i have an opinion on this.

Well Dennis let's hear it. ::)

Ya know, inquiring minds and all that! ;D

Hoist! 8)
Logged
"We wanna be free to ride our machines without being hassled by The Man!"

Traxxion Dynamics Suspension Rules! "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up!"

"Cause I'm sitting on top of the world!" (zoom in on satellite map in my Profile)

Black Diamond

  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3363

    • CVO1: 11 FLHXSE2 "Vanessa"
    • CVO2: 08 FLHRSE4 "Lexi" "Bike from Hell"
    • CVO3: 02 FLHRSEI "Ruby"
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2007, 11:41:03 PM »

Dennis
 
are you wanting to compare chain vs gear on 07-08 bikes? say something dude, i have an opinion on this.
Yep.
I am very close to doing my build.  http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=17921.msg286227#msg286227 I would like more information on chain v gear drive comparison.

I don't build bikes/motors, I just ride em. I know my 08 has a crank issue which I hope I'm addressing with Timkin bearing and sending the crank to Darkhorse Crankworks.

I'm also looking into the cam support plate as well as the oil pump issue as additional areas of possible concern.

I know what I know. I also know what I do not know and am willing to listen to those that do. I await your opinion.

JW
Logged

rednectum

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 834
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2007, 06:02:16 AM »

ok, its 4 AM and only one cup of coffee.  i look at gear vs chain in a different light since hd developed the new style hydraulic tensioners. there is little pressure on the new chain and of the new style tensioners i have seen or heard of , there has been zero wear!!

now gears are great, and almost required on pre 07 bikes.  i had to throw that in before going farther.

chain, we have seen chain drive last for about 8 years now. we have heard of a few failures and some have experienced catastrophic  oil pump damage and total engine grenade. we also have heard even more stories about the 100,000 mile or more twin cams that only had oil changes and tire/brakes. is the old style chain risky enough to switch to gears? some say just replace every 20,000 miles. some say you are riding a time bomb from day one!  anyone who has released the tensioner and held it in place with the pins knows how much pressure is on the chains! so yes, there has to be some parasitic power loss there. so------if its spring tensioned chains on pre-07 bike, i would strongly consider gear drive.

looking at the new motors, there is very little tension or parasitic loss on  the chain setup. the oil pump is much improved, no failures reported that i am aware of. seems like a good system that should be worry free. i would still inspect, or at least monitor what others are reporting, there could be a failure--its still a wearable shoe that could send abrasive chunks through your motor. i trust it.

now lets consider the runout we are seeing with the late motors, add gears without addressing runout and you are whipping the bearing surfaces, oil pump, flexing pinion gear. now you have created the time bomb you were worrying about! in this case, the chain will actually help your motor live longer!

next, lets correct runout, and go with gear drive. is lash set correctly? if not, what is happening with the gear teeth banging into each other? are microscopic pieces of hardened steel going through your motor??????/ okay, lash is set correctly and shims are used for proper gear alignment. anyone seen a 100,000 mile gear drive motor yet? is lash still sorrect? cam bearings survive? my vote goes for chain because failure rate comparisons are inconclusive.

moving into the high lift, heavy valve spring, steep ramp arena common today. can the chain survive the constant snatching? if so, are the chains buffering the shock that would be sent to the bearing surfaces? now lets install gears in same environment, no runout, propr lash, hevy springs, steep ramps, etc: will the lack of a buffer actually put more side load on the bearing? will it create harmonics through the pinion that will weaken and eventually destroy the pinion/pump? i think maybe so.

in my opinion, a great setup for the new motors would be helical gears with ball bearings in the plate. the helical gears would keep bearing side load in check, and buffering would be handled by the ball bearings.

ultimate solution? anyone check out bob woods belt system? helical gears internal, belt drive external!!!!

okay-------------need more coffee, feel free to agree, disagree, flame, buy me a beer, -------------------



Logged

hogasm

  • Guest
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2007, 07:05:22 AM »

Well Dennis let's hear it. ::)

Ya know, inquiring minds and all that! ;D

Hoist! 8)

He said it Howie.......and very well I might add......only will add that my first twin cam with gear drives has over 140,000 miles on it and still is his every day commute. I don't own it anymore. Probably why it lasted soooo long :2vrolijk_21:
Logged

ccr

  • SEEG Cult Senior Member
  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6352
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2007, 08:24:05 AM »

...okay-------------need more coffee, feel free to agree, disagree, flame, buy me a beer, -------------------


I owe you a beer - or a coffee.  You explained this is a manner that even I could understand.  Thanks.
Logged

rednectum

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 834
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2007, 01:05:59 PM »

I owe you a beer - or a coffee.  You explained this is a manner that even I could understand.  Thanks.

well Mrs. WeCVO. i hope one day to meet yall. i will accept that cold beer with honor!!
Logged

Fruitcake

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30

    • CVO1: FLHRSE3
    • CVO2: My wifes bike 2004 FLSTC
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2007, 05:05:14 PM »

Dennis
  Yep.
I am very close to doing my build.  http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=17921.msg286227#msg286227 I would like more information on chain v gear drive comparison.

I don't build bikes/motors, I just ride em. I know my 08 has a crank issue which I hope I'm addressing with Timkin bearing and sending the crank to Darkhorse Crankworks.

I'm also looking into the cam support plate as well as the oil pump issue as additional areas of possible concern.

I know what I know. I also know what I do not know and am willing to listen to those that do. I await your opinion.

JW

How do you no you have a bad crank?
 Have you had the crank run- out checked?
 What mad you think you had a bad crank
I have a vibration at 2500 RPMs and higher on my 2007 SERK

Logged
We love Riding the hills of the North East Kingdom of VT, Northern NH and Western ME.

Black Diamond

  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3363

    • CVO1: 11 FLHXSE2 "Vanessa"
    • CVO2: 08 FLHRSE4 "Lexi" "Bike from Hell"
    • CVO3: 02 FLHRSEI "Ruby"
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2007, 06:21:41 PM »

Dennis,

"ultimate solution? anyone check out bob woods belt system? helical gears internal, belt drive external!!!!"
Thanks for the info. I will look into this as a possibility. Also thanks for info on the new oil pump.

Fruitcake,

I know my 08 has a crank issue
Sorry. What I should have stated is I know some 07 / 08's are have a crank issue. Apparently not all of them but this is becoming a reoccurring theme. My builder has had to address at least two cranks, both on 96 cu motors. All the builders I have contacted have raised the crank issue as an area I should consider addressing.

I have had absolutely no problems with my 08 SERK. I am looking at doing an upgrade on my 110 to get out of her what she has while making her as reliable as I can afford. I have talked with Dennis in the past. I am fairly certain I will stay with the chain drive as I can not justify the cost of the gear drive based on the information I have gathered to date.

I am sorry to hear of your vibration problems. Have you talked with your service guys yet? Good Luck Always.

JW
Logged

rednectum

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 834
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2007, 07:20:46 PM »

fruitcake. i have seen two reasons for the vibration, cylinder imbalance, and pipes.  the crank runout can be great with no noticable vibration!!!!!!!!!
Logged

rednectum

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 834
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2007, 07:23:09 PM »

black diamond. be aware that some pipes will not clear the belt drive cams. bagger fatcats being one. supertrapp will work with minor mods, i understand road rage will work.
Logged

Fruitcake

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30

    • CVO1: FLHRSE3
    • CVO2: My wifes bike 2004 FLSTC
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2007, 08:34:24 PM »

fruitcake. i have seen two reasons for the vibration, cylinder imbalance, and pipes.  the crank runout can be great with no noticeable vibration!!!!!!!!!

Thanks,

My bike is going in the shop next Friday, they are going to check the motor mounts first, and than fix my oil leak on the rear cylinder. I removed my rush slipons and put my stock mufflers back on the bike and removed my PC 111. Oh and if they can't find any reason for the vibration the are going to check the Crank Run-out.

The bike only has 2,500 miles on it, it was a late 07 build, it was built in June 2007 I bought it in the middle of August.

I never had a problem with my 02 RK. And it had the 95 big bore kit, head work and Bobby Woods gear driven cams, Rinehart true duels.

Bobby Woods cams are cut by Andrews too Bobby Woods specs, I believe the gears where S&S. Some days I wish I never traded her in she was one strong pulling Bitch!   

It never failed me in 45,000 Miles
Logged
We love Riding the hills of the North East Kingdom of VT, Northern NH and Western ME.

GMR-PERFORMANCE

  • Vendor
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1769
    • TX

Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2007, 09:47:42 AM »

The cylinder imbalance is something that is seen often. We will put a kit together that is cylinders and heads and the customers alwyas tells us they think it runs smoother.  Some times a tune will help out in that area to some point, you cannot fix a poor flowing head with a tune but you may be able to smooth it out some.
Logged
2012 SHARK  S&S 124 150/140   www.gmrperformance.com

Fruitcake

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 30

    • CVO1: FLHRSE3
    • CVO2: My wifes bike 2004 FLSTC
Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2007, 05:40:04 PM »

The cylinder imbalance is something that is seen often. We will put a kit together that is cylinders and heads and the customers always tells us they think it runs smoother.  Some times a tune will help out in that area to some point, you cannot fix a poor flowing head with a tune but you may be able to smooth it out some.

I had my SERK dyno tuned when I added the PCIII and it ran great no vibrations, the vibrations came on slowly over time.

She is heading in the trailer for a ride to Vermont and the HD dealer services department I will let them check it out,

I trust them, and I hope it isn't crank-run out. But ya never no!
Logged
We love Riding the hills of the North East Kingdom of VT, Northern NH and Western ME.

GMR-PERFORMANCE

  • Vendor
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1769
    • TX

Re: Gear drive cam VS chain
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2007, 05:48:44 PM »

WEll with HD saying that .010 runout is good hard to say what will happen. I fail to see how they can say on one hand that 10 thou runout is fine but that is triple the spec on the oil pump. Being that the oil pump has the pinion running through the pump?? :nixweiss:
Logged
2012 SHARK  S&S 124 150/140   www.gmrperformance.com
Pages: 1 [2] 3  All
 

Page created in 0.214 seconds with 21 queries.