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Author Topic: Oil pump failed and took out valve train. Need assistance and suggestions please  (Read 7961 times)

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zigzag930

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2015 CVO FLTRUSE (110cu in) out of no-where, started making a strange noise (like a random clinking sound) coming from the right side of engine.  I suspected lifter failure as I've read these are a known issue with the 110.  Bike has about 40K miles.

Local shop now has it apart and I see that the cams, oil pump, bearings and lifters are toast.  Word is that the lower end is intact and crank run-out is .004-.005 with no visible signs of further damage to the engine.

Shop is a Drag Specialties shop so the are recommending Fueling products to replace the stock HD parts.  I actually don't expect the prices to be that much different from HD and expect that extended service contract will pick up the cost of the HD parts, so I'd only pay any differences.

Anyway, shop is recommending Fueling cam plate, oil pump, lifters and cam (not sure which one yet).  I'd like some feedback on fueling products or other products that would be a better choice.

My longer term plan is to upgrade to the SE 117 kit down the road, so I thought this would be a good time to at least take care of the valve train.  Whatever I do, I want it work work nice with my existing 110 setup but provide that growth into the larger jugs.

Bike is basically stock, except for FuelMoto 2-1-2 stainless and RC Exhaust 4.5 (yes I know baffles are a bit large, but I do like the sound). 

All suggestions and comments are appreciated.

Thanks
Zig
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J.D.

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Fueling is good stuff.  S&S really good as well.  SE camplate also good.  Lot of good upgrade options.
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HD Street Performance

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This is half done. Now the crank needs to go out and be taken apart, cleaned, pined and trued at minimum. All of the oil lines and appurtenances need to be cleaned or replaced. I would be looking very close and miking the lifter bores for marks and size. The piston oil jets replaced. Would not use Feuling and would use an S&S pump and Hylift lifters going back. Heads need to be freshened up at minimum.
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zigzag930

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I am real concerned about the crank and main bearings.  Not sure how the shop can determine there is no damage without physically inspecting it.  That would require splitting the case and full disassembly, correct?   I've never torn down a TC, but I'm guessing a full teardown would also be necessary to clean out all the oil passages.

I was told that a borescope was used to look in the jugs and there wasn't any signs of damage there.  Just for my information, where are the piston oil jets?  In the crankcase?

Seems you are not a fan of Fueling.  Any particular reason?

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HD Street Performance

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More concerning is that they are not driving that plan and you have to dig up the information on the net. This failure requires a complete overhaul.
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Fatboy

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More concerning is that they are not driving that plan and you have to dig up the information on the net. This failure requires a complete overhaul.

 Or Plan B: https://www.sscycle.com/products/t124-stone-gray-engine-with-585-cams/

 If i was in the same situation and riding over 10k miles per year in a hot climate I'd weigh the total cost/risk/reliability/fun factor between Plan A and Plan B then decide.

 Drag Specialties shop should be able to get you into that new motor for $5500 plus misc. parts and labor.

Twolanerider

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Even if the Plan B option of an entirely new engine were considered this failure isn't out of the woods yet.  Given the failure everything needs to be cleaned.  Oil pan needs to come off the transmission.  Cooler and everything else flushed.  Metal went everywhere.
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Fatboy

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Even if the Plan B option of an entirely new engine were considered this failure isn't out of the woods yet.  Given the failure everything needs to be cleaned.  Oil pan needs to come off the transmission.  Cooler and everything else flushed.  Metal went everywhere.

Agreed.

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As others have said, complete engine rebuild is in order. Oil pan must be replaced as the baffle is welded in place and there is no way to be 100% certain that there is no debris left behind. The  oil cooler, if it has one, needs to be flushed as well. Also be sure to have the lifter bores inspected. We have a similar job in the shop now that needs a case due to damage to the lifter bore. 

The warranty company will cover all of the above.

For the pump and plate we use the S&S Blue units and the S&S lifters.

zigzag930

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Thanks to all for some very good advice. 

I am now thinking I will insist on a complete tear down and when the motor is rebuilt, pay the difference in price for the 117 kit.  Insurance should already be paying for the cams, lifters, pushrods, etc so that will help offset the cost a bit.

I didn't think about the oil pan, but makes sense to have it replaced.
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ultrarider123

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Or Plan B: https://www.sscycle.com/products/t124-stone-gray-engine-with-585-cams/

 If i was in the same situation and riding over 10k miles per year in a hot climate I'd weigh the total cost/risk/reliability/fun factor between Plan A and Plan B then decide.

 Drag Specialties shop should be able to get you into that new motor for $5500 plus misc. parts and labor.

I like the plan B option but it won't work in Zig's '15 RGU.  It's twin cooled and this is from the S&S site:

"This S&S 124 cubic inch T124 low compression Long Block engine fits 2007-'16 HD touring bikes except Twin-Cooled models."

Dang it, that 124 would look good in mine, too. 
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HD Street Performance

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There are ways around this but from the other site this will likely be an ESP job so the method will be much dictated by them if they pay. It's a lot like medical insurance
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lowflight

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How much of your ESP is left and are they going to stand behind the aftermarket parts that are being considered? Granted they are IMO better products, but something you should consider.
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zigzag930

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Still waiting on ESP's decision and approval....
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fastfreddy

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just a side note, if a complete tear is done at your request, it may be out of your pocket, if damage is found from the cam chest issue then all the repairs needed should be covered by ESP. its a gamble they take to save them self's money and stupid game they play 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 10:28:53 AM by fastfreddy »
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zigzag930

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I was concerned that a tear down should be done.  But, I have discussed the teardown with several very well respected Harley mechanics/tuners. 

They seem to concur that a tear down shouldn't be required as the oil from the cam chest is filtered before going to other parts of the engine.  Consequently, the piston oil jets and other internal areas should be safe (logic behind an oil filter I guess).

However, the pan must be removed and cleaned out or replaced.  All oil passages must be cleaned out.  Crank run-out should be inspected (which it has, looks good .003).  All cam chest components as well as the lifters, pushrods and even rocker arms need to be changed.   Possibly the heads should be removed to inspect the valves, springs and guides.

ESP has three years left on it, so if there are more problems, they will have to cover it all again.  Kind of stupid to me that they would save a few $ today at the risk of Lots of $ later, but that is how insurance works???

i intend to pay the difference to replace some of the components.  Current plan is S&S Premium lifters, HD SE Cam plate and SE oil pump, Timken bearings and most likely a Tman 625 cam (as I am considering the 117 kit at the same time).

I hope these components do not preclude future ESP coverage, and would like to think that better parts should not void coverage.


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skratch

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I hope these components do not preclude future ESP coverage, and would like to think that better parts should not void coverage.

i would ask them directly.  they may be 'better' parts, but they are non-hd parts.  once those go in, their responsibility may end.
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lowflight

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If they tell you they will cover the upgrades in the future, IMO it would be in your best interest to get it in writing.
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grc

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The "all the oil goes through the oil filter" theory sounds good, until you realize debris laden oil can still find it's way past not only the filter (ever heard of a filter bypass valve?) but can also migrate through the seals and bearings for the crank and cam.  Have the used motor oil tested before assuming no debris got into the crankcase or heads.

Jerry
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HD Street Performance

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Right on that  :2vrolijk_21:
Lifters are a dead end for debris so is the oil cooler and thermostat and the oil pan. Oil filter does not catch it all after a failure
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trippy

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Right on GRC,  Harley (and many other manufacturers for that matter)  oil filters are a joke, they should be called "Oil scrubbers" not filters.

Open up a filter and try and get oil to pass through the filter medium, even with hot oil, takes forever, which means the "bypass" is open most of the time, in other words, un filtered oil is being circulated around your engine!!

Go for a reusable "metal mesh" design, there are many available ( not from Harley though!)
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HD Street Performance

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Mesh filter = 30 microns absolute
Stock filter = 5 micron nominal
Nothing wrong with the stock filter
A filter in any system will not prevent collateral comtamination after a failure.  It's too late
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MCE

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Fueling is good stuff.  S&S really good as well.  SE camplate also good.  Lot of good upgrade options.
+1 Fueling has very good stuff. The whole thing needs to be disassembled or you're going to have
problems again. I'd do the crank while it's apart too. Send it to Hoban brothers or get an S&S crank.

Now is the time to build it right. If it were me, I'd go with gear drives too and be totally done with it.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 02:53:06 PM by MCE Performance »
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zigzag930

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ESP company is presently weighing out the re-build vs long block.  I should know in a few days.  Long block would make sense to me as the better route for all parties as it would have a one year warranty from HD.  I would think that the ESP would value that in their decision, but who knows.  It may be all about the $$$.  In fact, a long block may be less expensive at this point as the heads have now been pulled and the cylinders are scored.

If we go the long block route, I still plan to upgrade the cam plate and pump.  I'm now thinking the SE cam plate and pumps are the way to go.  That will leave the question of lifters and cam.  I've been told by many that the new SE lifters do not have issues anymore.  But, I think I'd still invest the extra $ to do the S&S premiums just to feel more comfortable.  Cam will be a tough decision as I'm not sure if I will do a 117 kit now or just leave the new 110 alone.

Kind of stuck until I get the EPS's decision on which direction they will proceed.  It's been three weeks and counting.... by the time this is all said and done, I'm guessing another 3-4 weeks.  I miss Lucille
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HD Street Performance

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Harley new lifters fail too. The cvo 110 got them in 2013 I believe.
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grc

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ESP company is presently weighing out the re-build vs long block.  I should know in a few days.  Long block would make sense to me as the better route for all parties as it would have a one year warranty from HD.  I would think that the ESP would value that in their decision, but who knows.  It may be all about the $$$.  In fact, a long block may be less expensive at this point as the heads have now been pulled and the cylinders are scored.

If we go the long block route, I still plan to upgrade the cam plate and pump.  I'm now thinking the SE cam plate and pumps are the way to go.  That will leave the question of lifters and cam.  I've been told by many that the new SE lifters do not have issues anymore.  But, I think I'd still invest the extra $ to do the S&S premiums just to feel more comfortable.  Cam will be a tough decision as I'm not sure if I will do a 117 kit now or just leave the new 110 alone.

Kind of stuck until I get the EPS's decision on which direction they will proceed.  It's been three weeks and counting.... by the time this is all said and done, I'm guessing another 3-4 weeks.  I miss Lucille

Unfortunately you've been misinformed.  Harley started installing those SE lifters in production on CVO110 engines for the 2013 model year.  So the lifters in your 2015 would have been the same ones shown in the catalog as SE lifters.  Plenty of them have failed, the heavier duty roller bearings in those lifters just delay the problem, not prevent it.  The root cause of the failures involves the entire valve train, not just the lifters.  The cams, valves, and springs are the real culprits IMHO.

Jerry
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Jerry, as always, described the issues well.
The valve train is a system. Without a system approach it is difficult to fix the lifter issue. Eyeballs focus on one component,  in this case usualy lifters or valve springs. Truth be told if forced to name the major contributor I would suggest the cam. Despite being short and not extreme lift the ramps are intense.  Just changing cams to a grind with less intense ramps, in my opinion, is the 80% solution.
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lowflight

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Jerry, as always, described the issues well.
The valve train is a system. Without a system approach it is difficult to fix the lifter issue. Eyeballs focus on one component,  in this case usualy lifters or valve springs. Truth be told if forced to name the major contributor I would suggest the cam. Despite being short and not extreme lift the ramps are intense.  Just changing cams to a grind with less intense ramps, in my opinion, is the 80% solution.

Curious which cam you would recommend. I know there are tons of opinions on my question, but I am asking about a stock 110 A engine that the REAL concern is durability. 
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HD Street Performance

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Want a stock replacement that is similar in performance but easier on valve train, use the tts100. Personally I chose an Andrews 54h. Little different, not sexy but it works, is quiet, and easy on parts. I did no porting or changes to the heads other than springs (conical) seals and changed the lifters to hylift b-2313se
Any cam change then forces a retune.
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MCE

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With 40K miles, I would think the lifters would be questionable no matter what. I have 42K on my bike, I've
decided I won't ride it anymore until I can get in there and freshen it up, before it grenades. I know the chain
tensioners are probably shot.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but better safe than sorry. Allot of cases where ppl get way more miles out of them
but they're cheap insurance compared to the alternative.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 10:05:04 PM by MCE Performance »
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lowflight

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Want a stock replacement that is similar in performance but easier on valve train, use the tts100. Personally I chose an Andrews 54h. Little different, not sexy but it works, is quiet, and easy on parts. I did no porting or changes to the heads other than springs (conical) seals and changed the lifters to hylift b-2313se
Any cam change then forces a retune.

Thank you! Exactly the information I was seeking. My wife is happy (for now) with the performance of her stock engine, so I am just looking at trying to maintain it close to that performance level while addressing some of the well known issues.


I have the same set of lifters waiting to go into my bike. I have 17K on mine and am very gun shy at this point. Going 117 on mine and heads should be in the mail back to me either today or tomorrow. I am ready to get that together but planned trip will delay me for about month.
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zigzag930

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So now the ESP wants to consider the price of a new motor instead of rebuild or long block.   Local Harley is saying that the part number for the 110 engine is valid, but the product is no longer available.  WTF?   Can't buy a complete engine from the MOCO?  Surprising.

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CHH_Badkarma

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can you take a pay out for the price of the now no longer available motor and then just buy and S&S?
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zigzag930

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I think they will do a payout and I will be able to do whatever I choose.  If the full motor isn't available, I don't think they can base they payout on something that can't be purchased, but that is yet to be determined.

While I know the S&S would be a great engine, I think it would hurt the value of the CVO if I were to go that route.

Most likely the long block route will make the most sense.  This would eliminate any possible metal contamination in the engine with little downside, except for my plans to upgrade it to a 117 at this time.   I would still do S&S lifters and upgraded SE cam plate/oil pump.   Maybe rocker locker/stoppers as well.   Still need to make a cam choice that will work with both the 110 and future 117 plans.
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The long block is still available as best I can tell, so that would be what the ESP should do.  Yes, they would have to pay the dealership to transfer heads, throttle body, and various other covers and bits, but it would still be much better than having the average dealership build an engine from scratch.  You could always have the heads freshened up by a good shop during the process.

I've never seen anyone who swapped out the Harley engine for an S&S come back later and tell us if it actually affected resale value.  I'd be interested in hearing such information if anyone has any to share.  Considering the fact that CVO's no longer hold value any better than any other model, I think I'd go with the best alternative for myself and not worry about what it may or may not do to resale value.  People who follow the trials and tribulations of Harley engines may actually pay more for a bike with the S&S.

JMHO - Jerry
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Find a builder with an impeccable reputation, and build you a Motor.  Harley 110's are junk.  Some of them more so than others.  They'll run up to 95, or 100 MPH pretty quick, and then take 10 more minutes to get to 110-115 MPH, WFO.  No compression.  Compression is HP.  No compression, no HP.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD 
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zigzag930

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For those following the story...

Looks like the Long Block will be approved in the next day or two.  When this happens, I will credit the ESP company for doing the right thing.

So, I don't believe I'll do the 117 kit at this time.  The long block does come with virtually everything internal, including the heads, rockers, pushrods, lifters.   From what I'm told, it does not come with the cam plate, cam or oil pump. 

Should like the SE cam plate and pump will be my choice.  S&S Premium non-limited lifers and pushrods will by on my nickel as they already include the SE parts for that.  Cam will be a credit that I can use for any cam, so that is still the big question.  Best cam for basically (except stage 1) stock motor, riden two up most of the time, BUT could work really well with the 117 kit at a later date.  I wonder if there is a cam that would cover both scenarios.   Originally I was planning on the Tman 620PS, but now without the 117 kit, I'm not sure that works.  SE585 or something similar may best.  I understand the SE cam that comes with the 117 kit needs more compression to really work well, so that probably isn't the cam I'm looking for.

Well if all goes well, I may have my bike back in 3 weeks!
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HD Street Performance

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Cyclerama 570 or tts100.
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Finster101

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ZigZag,  who's doing the work for you?  Six Bends or Bert's?
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zigzag930

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Neither.  Being done at a local Indy here in my area.  They have been great to work with so far and very professional.  Will post my comments regarding this shop when job is completed.
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Thanks.  I was just curious as I am local to you as well.  North Ft Myers.
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zigzag930

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I'd like to report that the ESP from Cornerstone has approved the HD long block.  So in about 2 weeks I hope to have a new motor installed.

Decided this would be a nice to do the chrome inner primary (since the old one is off now anyway).

Harley has not made it clear as to exactly what is in the long block in a few areas.  The literature says the 110 long block has a cam plate, but does not mention which style.  Also it does not mention if an oil pump is included.

I will toss the SE lifters in favor the S&S premiums.  Also about 99% sold on the Tman 625PS cam.  Other than that I'll need adjustable pushrods (probably SE).   Up in the rocker box, I'm thinking about doing rocker lockers (not sure which yet as there are a few different companies that seem to make a very similar product).

At this time, I'll put off the 117 kit.  I don't want to discard brand new jugs and pistons.

I'm also thinking of switching out my RC4.5 slip ons (even though I love the sound) in favor of 2.25" CVO recores from FullSac.  Not sure about the "screens" that go in to hold the wrap or how much wrap I'll put in there yet.

So I will update this post again to share my experience about the insurance company, when all is done and (hopefully) paid for.  So far, they have been excellent to deal with, but the process has been time consuming.

Zig
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Twolanerider

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How much compression you going to set the engine up for to effectively run the 625 cams?
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zigzag930

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This will be a stock motor initially, so compression will be 9.5?  The cam selection was recommended by Tman, so I sort of just accepted his choice based on 2-up riding (90% of the time).   Tman was contacted, based my tuner's recommendation.

I had also considered the SE585, Woods TW7H and even a Zipper's 587.

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Twolanerider

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This will be a stock motor initially, so compression will be 9.5?  The cam selection was recommended by Tman, so I sort of just accepted his choice based on 2-up riding (90% of the time).   Tman was contacted, based my tuner's recommendation.

I had also considered the SE585, Woods TW7H and even a Zipper's 587.


I really like the 625.  It's a cam I've ridden a few times and enjoyed.  Always told (even by Tman) that it needed something in the 10.25 range or a bit more to work well.  TMan's website (just looked) suggests a range of 10.2 to 10.6.


https://tmanperformance.com/product/t-man-625-ps/
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zigzag930

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Yes, I've read the information on their site and from what it says there, I'd have chosen 2-3 other cams.   But when I spoke directly with TR, he said the "new" 625PS would be ideal.  He said they changed the grid recently, so perhaps that is why he has suggested that cam over the others.  I do intend to call them one more time to be sure I understood correctly.

I bet that cam will really perform with added compression.  Down the road I will do either the 117 kit, heads or both.  At that time, I'll adjust the compression as well.

I didn't really have any complaints about the stock cam I had, but hopefully the 625PS will give me better performance. 
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Twolanerider

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Yes, I've read the information on their site and from what it says there, I'd have chosen 2-3 other cams.   But when I spoke directly with TR, he said the "new" 625PS would be ideal.  He said they changed the grid recently, so perhaps that is why he has suggested that cam over the others.  I do intend to call them one more time to be sure I understood correctly.

I bet that cam will really perform with added compression.  Down the road I will do either the 117 kit, heads or both.  At that time, I'll adjust the compression as well.

I didn't really have any complaints about the stock cam I had, but hopefully the 625PS will give me better performance.


I will be interested in what you learn so please share. Thanks.
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fastfreddy

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 I had the older 625 cam with Tmans street performer kit, thing was a beast... but im with 2lane your going to need more compression to make it shine. it was at 10.6
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SERGU aka the RENTAL ... never home & always broke...Thnx FF

HD Street Performance

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Got to change the mindset. There are a lot of "good cams" from a lot of good companies. The best results coming from "great combinations" of parts. This is where the limited information we are given is examined and the important timing events are used to choose a grind that compliments what we have existing or future state.
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zigzag930

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For those following this thread, the new long block was installed and being finished up as we speak.

I replaced my RC4.5's with CVO cans having Fulsac 2.0's, installed a chrome inner primary (love that chrome), installed S&S premiums and ultimately decide to go with a TTS100 cam.  As much as I wanted to go with the Tman 625's I felt the TTS100 were a better choice for my basically stock configuration and riding style.

I'm out of town until Monday night and will pick up the bike on Tuesday morning.  Can't wait to see how she rides!   Bike is going to Doc's the following Monday for a tune and I'll report how she feels once all is complete.
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CVOStreetglide

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For those following this thread, the new long block was installed and being finished up as we speak.

I replaced my RC4.5's with CVO cans having Fulsac 2.0's, installed a chrome inner primary (love that chrome), installed S&S premiums and ultimately decide to go with a TTS100 cam.  As much as I wanted to go with the Tman 625's I felt the TTS100 were a better choice for my basically stock configuration and riding style.

I'm out of town until Monday night and will pick up the bike on Tuesday morning.  Can't wait to see how she rides!  Bike is going to Doc's the following Monday for a tune and I'll report how she feels once all is complete.

Very good choice!!   I would recommend you discuss your build with him beforehand in case any pieces/part adjustments should be made.


RIDE SAFE!!
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HD Street Performance

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I like the choices you made and they are all harmonious.
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Rooster

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For those following this thread, the new long block was installed and being finished up as we speak.

I replaced my RC4.5's with CVO cans having Fulsac 2.0's, installed a chrome inner primary (love that chrome), installed S&S premiums and ultimately decide to go with a TTS100 cam.  As much as I wanted to go with the Tman 625's I felt the TTS100 were a better choice for my basically stock configuration and riding style.

I'm out of town until Monday night and will pick up the bike on Tuesday morning.  Can't wait to see how she rides!   Bike is going to Doc's the following Monday for a tune and I'll report how she feels once all is complete.
:2vrolijk_21:
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zigzag930

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For those following this thread - Today I picked up Lucielle and had a chance to rider her a bit.

The shop did three heat cycles on initial startup to begin the break-in process.   Then I loaded the base TTS tune for a CVO 110 with TTS 100 and Fullsac 2.0 pipes.  I followed the break in recommended by Doc and completed that in the first 20 miles to seat the rings.

My initial observations:

1) Bike idles noticeably smoother
2) Zero valve train ticking or noise.  In fact I've never had a Harley that was this quiet in the valve train.  (S&S??, TTS?  not sure if one or both made the difference
3) 2500 RPM vibration (which had always been there) is completely gone
4) Fullsac 2.0's are just as loud as the RC4.5's, but more raspier pitch.  I liked the lower tone of the RC's, but may get used to the high pitch over time
5) Torque below 3500 RPM's is absolutely a big improvement over the previous 255's and this is noticeable in every gear.  In fact at 3500 in 4th gear, twisting on full throttle made me think the front wheel might come off the ground. Never experienced that feeling before with this bike.
6) Fair amount of decel popping.

Monday, I have an appointment with Doc who will do his magic tuning work.  Will report back further observations at that time.

I must say that with all the thought and research I put into selecting a cam, the TTS100 is definately doing the job.  I believe this was a great choice and very clear difference in performance (no dyno needed)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 11:04:54 PM by zigzag930 »
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stumps66

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sounds awesome.  Thanks for the followup.  Been looking forward to it.  I have decided I will go with the TTS 100 as well.  Let me know how it goes as you break it in. 

Safe travels!!
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zigzag930

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Thought I'd post the results of my new long block, with the TTS100 cam now that the bike has been tuned by Doc.

Torque is outstanding at just over 120 ft lbs.   I was expecting 115, so was very impressed with the end result.

HP is a little lower than I'd hoped at around 96, but I was really more concerned with off the line thru medium RPM power anyway.

Very satisfied with this combination and trust me, you don't need a dyno to tell the difference!

I'll post the dyno chart when I get a change over the next day or so.


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zigzag930

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Dyno chart is posted in this separate thread to be more "searchable" for those looking at cams.

https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=116347.msg1472188#msg1472188
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