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Custom Vehicle Discussions => Screamin' Eagle® Electra Glide® => Topic started by: JCZ on December 27, 2003, 01:56:20 AM
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Apologies to JC here for hijacking the very first post in this thread. The original was asking that dyno sheets get posted here for everyone to compare and study and discuss.
There were many sheets posted. There was also a hacker that hit the site in the spring of 2005. That incident caused the loss of all attached images up to that time.
So if you're scanning through here looking for dyno sheets and just don't find any; that's why. Please feel free to scan the discussions as they're helpful too. But you'll find the attachments start showing up again about page 15 of this thread.
Just didn't want a newer user to bail out on the thread thinking there was no sheets posted when it seemed like everybody was talking about them.
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Yah wouldn't a carb be nice, so easy to tune.
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Same set up as me except FI and a PC instead of a race tuner....guess i gotta go get the thing dyno'ed
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Same set up as me except FI and a PC instead of a race tuner....guess i gotta go get the thing dyno'ed
Cabo.....just to be clear.....don't just get it dynoed, get it dyno tuned. Huge difference.
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O.K. Cabo (not that I'm anxious. lol) but I happened to notice that you have over 1,000 miles. Time to see those dyno numbers ;D
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prolly gonna next week..had minor back surgury yesterday so Im of the bike for a day or 2.
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Been there, but mine was major.....two discs removed.
Hey, you should have gotten your patch by now......anything yet?
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I met a gentlman on another site who is familar with Harleys, big motors, dynos, etc. I talked with him on the phone at length last night and for the 103" with high flow air cleaner, Race Tuner (or PC III) he suggests a 2 into 1 exhaust (he did not recommend a particular make). He talked at length about "peak HP and peak torque" vs. usable HP and usable torque (in the lower end of the power band. I explained that I don't care so much about 120 mph power, that I'm interested in stop to 80 mph.....he suggested the 2 into 1. He made it clear that he does not want to beat anybody up or their exhaust system but it's what he knows to work on the big inch motors (unless you're going to be doing more riding on the drag strip than the street). By the way, in two weeks he'll be moving to Ariz. to start his new job of running the Dyno department at MMI. I also gave him the direction to this web site.....hopefully he will spend some time over here sharing his technical experience and opnion.
Here is the map on a 103 crate motor if you notice the TW5 made up for a big loos in TQ in the dip. ANd then pulled away from there on. The TW5G is a great fix for the SE cam. I do amny of these as they offer a direct swap without changing valve springs. Notice the exhaust system. Rheinhart( they stink) they are a more mid to upper pipe with a big loos on the bottom end. This is what that pipe offers. For your set-up a TW5G cam and a good pipe will make your scooter be able to pull a house. !!! Let meknow if there is anything elese I can do for you.
GMR PERFORMANCE 1-810-650-6403
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Looks like the TW5G cams (the red lines on the chart) might be something to consider as well.
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Check out this website I found. It is for all Harleys. It has lots of information on performance, dyno results and "how to" stuff. Good reading!!
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/index.htm
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Anybody know the specs on the stock cam? I was told by a very unknowledgeable salesman who took my deposit that it was a SE-253 and it is not in any catalogs I have. Also would like to know more info about the head specs if anyone has them (valve sizes, spring capacities and are they flowed). [smiley=drink.gif]
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Ofender welcome to the board. Not sure of the answer to your question but my guess would be that the heads are not flowed.
To meet EPA is really de-tuned from what it's true potential is. If you take all the crossed flag parts and build the same 103" motor, you're going to have a lot more motor.
Take the air cleaner (there's a post in the Deuce forum on this).....it is "a" Screamin Eagle air cleaner but not "the" Screamin Eagle Air Cleaner. Again, if it's a crossed flags part, in the catalog, it is not on our bike. Basically, crossed flags means that it does not meet EPA and therefore, is for "off street" racing only.
Harley is removing all the crossed flag parts from the regular catalog and they have put out a Screamin Eagle Racing Only Catalog.
Hope this helps a little.
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Thanks JCZ, no numbers for the cam though? lift? duration? LSA? ???
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Thanks JCZ, no numbers for the cam though? lift? duration? LSA? ???
Not promising anything, but check back in a couple days.....I'll see what I can find out.
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i,m here in santa cruz just left shop 04 glide is in for 1st service 1200miles had se air cleaner,se pipes with me asked to have installed .i was told that i would get very little hp&tc only louder. service tec said i would not get performance out of motor unless i changed cam.he stat.ed that cam that comes with california bike is 220 cam flat lobe also said 103in bike set up different to meet emmision standard on bigger motor.they will sell me extended warrenty for $1100.00 and stand behind the work they do but other shops will give me flack when it comes to engine warrenty work cause of mods.at this point only having 1st service done i,m taking my part home with me till i do more research--ak
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Here's some information on a set of cams that Woods has made specifically for the HD 103" motor.
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Thanks for the info JCZ, well worth thinking about seems everybody I talk to say the cam is the killer of this motor.
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is the stock cam in 103 road king the same cam found in the 103 electra glide. also are the 04 se glide sold in california the same set up for the rest of states and abroud. reading road king section changing air/mufflers results are different that info hd shop gave me--ak
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My understanding is that they're exactly the same motor (same cams and all) as the SERK and sold in all the states.
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Hey guys, the puppy is at Fremont HD getting Dyno Tuned. I told them I wanted a map of "before and after" the tune. So we can see what good this $320 process is.
Does that price sound right to you guys?????? [smiley=nervous.gif]
I will post the results when I get it. I only have the SE Air cleaner kit, HD Race Tuner and V & H slip ons.
I really like the sound of the pipes but I know if I'd of got some 2 into one pipes I would pick the numbers up.
Something for you guys to think about. If I buy new pipes now. I would need to add another $320 to the already high price of pipes for another dyno.
It just ain't fare.
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thanks for the before and after. i will buy you dinner for that one. i went to santa cruz hd with se air cleaner and se slip on mufflers . wanted to install at 1k servive-----service rep told me unless i changed cams all i,d get was louder(with back fire) little hp/tq . at that point i took my parts home put new mufflers on my 00 ultra,and have se filter in storage still in research and development mode --ak
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KingSalmon I will accept delivery of my bike with the high flow air cleaner, Race Tuner and V&H Pro Pipe. As soon as I get it broke in (1,000) miles I'll be getting it dyno tuned and we'll be able to compare the difference between my exhaust and yours being the only difference.
AK let me remind you of Mel's ( a friend here in Sac) dyno numbers......103" with high flow air cleaner, Race Tuner and Rinehart True Duals came in at 108 hp and 110 lb-ft of torque. I'd say, based on that one, that the guy in SC is not being totally honest on this issue. King Salmon's dyno will back this up, too. I'm equally anxious to see these dyno sheets!
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More fluff from the dealer.
I was told the bike was done and went to pick it up and they said when they were dynoing, it blew up my ESI module. I think that is the on board computer. So I left the bike their until it is replaced. They said they put another one in from someone elses bike so I could take it home it I wanted. But would have to wait until my part got in to do the dyno.
Sounds kiinda fishy. Knowing how these dealerships work I really don't know what happened. This is just what I was told.[smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Just to cleaify, I had the air cleaner, race tuner, and pipes installed before I picked the bike up. I had to wait 1000 miles to get the dyno. The 2 sets of numbers I get will only be the before the dyno and after the dyno. Sorry for any confusion.
I left the bike there because it is suppose to rain all week and I can still lower myself to ride the "old" 2001 Ultra if I have to.
[smiley=bigok.gif]
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KS they took a EFI module from "somebody else's" bike to put in yours, so you could take it home? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
I never had high regard for that dealership to begin with (due to the cross breeding of makes) and now their taking parts off somebody else's bike to "loan" to you?
In the first place, why do they not have such a common part as an EFI in stock?
In the second place......sounds like the dyno tech. lacks necessary experience.
In the third place....$320 sounds just a little steep to me. At HD of Sacramento it runs right around $225 depending on how long it takes (it varies from bike to bike and depending on the other mods and the experience of the dyno tech).
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I don't like that dealer either. Remember I am the guy who put a deposit at 3 different places and waited for the first to call. That was Fremont just before xmas.
I put all the goodies including the dyno on the loan so I am stuck with these guys for now.
For all I know the dyno guy called in sick or the machine broke.
I would like some other prices on Dyno jobs from other members if possible. I think they came up with 4 hours for the dyno at $80 per. If it takes longer I win, If it takes less I lose.
I did not let them do the 1000 mile service on it. >:(
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Fremont HD still has the bike, parts are not in yet. They called in today saying maybe next week.
I'm still pissed. I'm glad its raining.
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Serk 103 emailed his dyno sheet to me this morning.
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OK you guys, here they are, and of course I have some questions for you.
First of all, sorry I could not get it scanned in color. This multi billion dollar company I work for doesn't have a color scanner.
There are 3 sets of readings. The upper line on each reading is after the tune. The lower line of each set is the before tune.
The air fuel base line I am told is suppose to be 13
I like the numbers I got here but I don't understand why the graph doesn't match the numbers. I was told the graph reading is like an average at that given point and the numbers were true.
A guy was in same time as me with a rice burner that numbers were 146 hp but graph said around 138 hp and they told him the same.
Anyone know anything about this????? I notice the numbers JCZ posted a while back match the graph. Fremont HD's phone number is on the sheet so if anyone wants to call them for clarification tell them Fred Salmon told you to call.
BTW- this is a 04 FLHTCSE, V&H oval slip ons, SE Air Cleaner, HD Race Tuner.
If you guys need me to go to Kinko's and scan you a color print let me know and I'll do it.
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By the way, the graph and the posted numbers should match. I don't even know how they could not match. Was the dyno tech experienced.....how much experience?
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Ok really, here they are.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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"SAE Smoothing" in the upper right corner explains the difference in numbers vs. the graph.
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Hey guys! Since you both live closeby, it'd be interesting to see how those numbers compare to the Freedom Cycle Dynojet 250 up here in Reno. The two owners, Mark and Brad Yuill have so much experience with these things (they raced pro stock with the big boys) for over 20 years. They also have a catalog of results (baseline and modified) for TC 88,95, 103, 113, 116 and evo's.
MagnaCharger uses them exclusively for delphi fuely's and they helped to design Edelbrock's TC heads. they also have a proprietary version of Rinehart true duels which give better results than any 2-1. these guys are THE best you will find anywhere... 775-848-9696 Mark...775-848-8600 Brad.
By the way Kingsalmon... your results are similar to an 03 SERK they did up here. http://flhrsei.org/YaBBImages/smilies/huepfenjump3.gif[smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]
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they also have a proprietary version of Rinehart true duels which give better results than any 2-1. http://flhrsei.org/YaBBImages/smilies/huepfenjump3.gif[smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]
Oh My..waiting for JCZ [smiley=behead.gif]
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Oh My..waiting for JCZ
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JCZ:
Freedom has modified version of the Rinehart's (with permission from Gerald Rinehart). The sections are slightly different in length because the pipes were originally made for supercharged delphi baggers. They also have chrome Freedom Cycle end caps instead of anodized caps. As far as the 2-1 your general theory is correct. Almost all of our little group has run Pro Pipes for years, but with these fuel injected bikes the major variable is MAPPING. With a proper map, on an inertial dyno, the Freedom (Rinehart) true duals will make more power than the Pro Pipe.
By the way although Byron and Terry no longer own Vance and Hines, the Yuills are very good friends with these guys and were quite loyal to the 2-1.
I gather from your posts, that you are something of a Motorhead, as I am. I think you would enjoy talking to Brad Yuill about their results 775 848-8600. Remember, the guy used to race with the likes of Bob Glidden and other pro stockers. These guys do better mapping than Dynojet themselves...no lie.
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I forgot to mention, in my last post, that BUB manufactures these pipes specifically for Freedom Cycle. They are not Rinehart's that Freedom has modified themselves. I will try to get my Dyno sheet scanned soon but my bike has had the heads flowed, proprietary Freedom Cycle cams, Freedom pipes and a power Commander. It has not had an ECM mod, so the rev limiter is still set at 5700 RPM. It makes 109hp and 121 ft. lbs. torque. It has 100 ft. lbs. or more from 2600 to 5500 rpm and 110 or more from 2800 to 5000 rpm. Brad builds these motors for torque and streetability. That should be enough LOW END torque for you!! You owe it to yourself to contact them. [smiley=beerchug.gif] [smiley=worthless.gif] [smiley=worthless.gif] [smiley=worthless.gif] [smiley=worthless.gif]
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JCZ:
Freedom has modified version of the Rinehart's (with permission from Gerald Rinehart). The sections are slightly different in length because the pipes were originally made for supercharged delphi baggers. They also have chrome Freedom Cycle end caps instead of anodized caps. As far as the 2-1 your general theory is correct. Almost all of our little group has run Pro Pipes for years, but with these fuel injected bikes the major variable is MAPPING. With a proper map, on an inertial dyno, the Freedom (Rinehart) true duals will make more power than the Pro Pipe.
By the way although Byron and Terry no longer own Vance and Hines, the Yuills are very good friends with these guys and were quite loyal to the 2-1.
I gather from your posts, that you are something of a Motorhead, as I am. I think you would enjoy talking to Brad Yuill about their results 775 848-8600. Remember, the guy used to race with the likes of Bob Glidden and other pro stockers. These guys do better mapping than Dynojet themselves...no lie.
True Duals generally generate greater "peak" numbers but we were talking about "usuable" power, in the lower rpm range. It looks like you have that low end power and I can't wait to see your dyno sheet. Those are numbers that I'd certainly be happy with.
I don't claim to be a motorhead, my knowledge is real limited compared to three of my partners, however, I do understand the basic stuff and breathing in and out is the name of the game for motors. I think I'll give those guys a call and go visit them, the next time I'm up in Reno. You've got me curious, now.
Tell me, if you don't mind, everything that they've done to your bike (heads? valves? valve springs, oil pump, etc. etc?) and the cost if you're open to that? I know a great motor builder, I just don't have the money to play in their league, I need reliability first.
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I'm sure your motor builder friend and others will confirm that all the components of the motor need to work together to produce the max horsepower, but on an EFI setup the mapping is the biggest varaible simply because there aren't alot of guys who know how to do it properly. The shop needs an inertial dyno so that they can measure air/fuel, under load, at useable throttle positions and rpm. That's where the big dip in torque comes from in the dyno sheets that you refer to, not necessarily because a guy is using a two into one or duals, believe me, I have no such dip in my sheet.
As far as parts go, you'd have to talk to Brad Yuill about that. He did the headwork and the cams are ground for Freedom by Andrews to their specs. Understanably, Brad won't divulge the details. I can tell you that the pistons are stock. I have a gear drive setup.
You mentioned reliability. I ride with a group of folks (about 40 of them) all of whom have Freedom work on their bikes exclusively. Each of them has had motor mods ranging from air cleaner, pipes and Power Commander to superchaged 116's with head mod's, cams etc. Not a single one of these bikes is built to exceed 6200 rpm (stage 1) and the vast majority are built to the 5700 stock rev limit. The power comes at passing rpm usually somewhere around 2400-2800 and extends as far and as strong as it can with the components employed. The reliability comes from the low rev limits. A lot of these dyno sheets are similar in terms of peak numbers. I haven't seen any which can achieve more torque at lower rpm's with as wide an rpm range as these guys. Seems to me That's what you're looking for.
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I'm sure your motor builder friend and others will confirm that all the components of the motor need to work together to produce the max horsepower, but on an EFI setup the mapping is the biggest varaible simply because there aren't alot of guys who know how to do it properly. The shop needs an inertial dyno so that they can measure air/fuel, under load, at useable throttle positions and rpm. That's where the big dip in torque comes from in the dyno sheets that you refer to, not necessarily because a guy is using a two into one or duals, believe me, I have no such dip in my sheet.
As far as parts go, you'd have to talk to Brad Yuill about that. He did the headwork and the cams are ground for Freedom by Andrews to their specs. Understanably, Brad won't divulge the details. I can tell you that the pistons are stock. I have a gear drive setup.
You mentioned reliability. I ride with a group of folks (about 40 of them) all of whom have Freedom work on their bikes exclusively. Each of them has had motor mods ranging from air cleaner, pipes and Power Commander to superchaged 116's with head mod's, cams etc. Not a single one of these bikes is built to exceed 6200 rpm (stage 1) and the vast majority are built to the 5700 stock rev limit. The power comes at passing rpm usually somewhere around 2400-2800 and extends as far and as strong as it can with the components employed. The reliability comes from the low rev limits. A lot of these dyno sheets are similar in terms of peak numbers. I haven't seen any which can achieve more torque at lower rpm's with as wide an rpm range as these guys. Seems to me That's what you're looking for.
PCC where's your dyno sheet? [smiley=worthless.gif]
I'm anxious to see it. Supposed to be 76 degrees by Tuesday. Maybe I'll take a ride up to Reno in the next couple weeks and talk to the guys a Freedom.
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I got a call from Fremont HD today and they found a but in the Dyno software that made the lines on the graph not match the numbers. They installed a patch and said it was all better and I should be getting some new sheets in the mail soon. I will re-post or have JCZ re - post my numbers since I messed up the last posting.
If you get your bike dyno tuned make sure the graph matches the numbers. If they don't match tell them to call the vendor and get the patch.
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New to this site guys...thanks for having me. Picked up my Cobalt SEEG last month. 2.5Kmiles and counting. Motor mods:
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On a scale of 1 - 10.....10 being the 2 1/4 stock baffles, how much "quieter" are the 2" baffles. you called them the "quiet baffles". thanks ....
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New to this site guys...thanks for having me. Picked up my Cobalt SEEG last month. 2.5Kmiles and counting. Motor mods:
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Hey PJ, welcome to the site. Great isn't it!. Just bought my reinharts but haven't recd them yet. Ship date of 3/15. I too chose them because of the look ad sound. One thing though, the tech at BUB specifically told me not to use the 2". They instead suggested the 2 1/4" and to pack them with fiberglass sound deadening (specially made for mufflers of course). But I guess that has the same effect. The back pressure (or rather lack of) is what causes the drop in torque, but hey...what the hell. I guess I'll find out when I put them on. Thanks for the info on the pipes and welcome [smiley=beerchug.gif].
PS. If you don't mind my asking, what did the cams set you back and who did you have do the work?
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Hey PJ, welcome to the site. Great isn't it!. Just bought my reinharts but haven't recd them yet. Ship date of 3/15. I too chose them because of the look ad sound. One thing though, the tech at BUB specifically told me not to use the 2". They instead suggested the 2 1/4" and to pack them with fiberglass sound deadening (specially made for mufflers of course). But I guess that has the same effect. The back pressure (or rather lack of) is what causes the drop in torque, but hey...what the hell. I guess I'll find out when I put them on. Thanks for the info on the pipes and welcome [smiley=beerchug.gif].
PS. If you don't mind my asking, what did the cams set you back and who did you have do the work?
I know a guy in Ariz. (he runs the dyno dept. of MMI, Motorcycle Mechanics Institute) that can put those cams in. He's done a lot of them on the 103" and sent me the dyno sheets that I posted. I put his phone number on one of the posts, but if you want it, send me a PM.
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Hey Serk103! Using your scale, I'd say the 2" baffles come in at about 7-8. The bike still sets off the "chirp" on car alarms if that's any gauge. GB tells me the BUB tech says no to the 2" - enough to make my head spin around. GB: the Wood cams are around $650 for the setup. I got the work done at Patriot HD in Virginia. Since you're in Texas, just call Bobby Woods and he'll put you in touch with somebody competent in your area. Did anybody notice my initial post was 2 a.m. this morning? That's sick...but it came right after detailing the CVO. Needless to say, my butt was draggin' today...and yes, I started the bike and tweaked the throttle a bit before leaving for work in my Pacer. PJ
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Hey Guys - I'll try to post my dyno runs for you with the 2" Rinehart baffles installed, but in the meantime, I was checking out Rinehart's (BUBS) website - www.bubent.com when I stumbled on this: On the BUB site, scroll down and you'll see a hyperlink for "Rinehart FL Baffle Dyno." It shows comparison runs with the stock, 2" and 2.25" baffles on an '01 FLHR w/ HTCC heads. Besides being carbed, it's a different engine set up for sure, but it illustrates increased TQ numbers at earlier RPM with a smooth upward progression using the 2". Also shows a slight loss in HP in upper RPM range. This is exactly what my HD tech suggested to me and the kind of results I got on my SEEG going to the 2" baffle. The Dyno runs were conducted at Orlando HD. Again, I'll take the higher TQ at lower RPM any day - especially with the SEEG. For me, the Rineharts with the 2" baffle set up is the best compromise of looks, sound and power. Have a great weekend! PJ
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Again, I'm with PJ on this one. I'd rather have the low end toque than the top end horsepower. For me, it's not about running a dyno race, it's about running the street race........from 0 to 80 mph kind of riding.
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Since we are discussing alot about pipes at this link. An employee at Fremont HD come up and asked me if I knew anyone that wanted brand new "white brothers" 2 into 1 system still in the box for $200 bucks. I have his phone number if anyone wants it. Feel free to copy this message anywhere else on the website you want.
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I have a 04 SEEG with SE air kit, Power Commander and D&D Performance Mufflers (2 into 1 with fake left side).
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I have a 04 SEEG with SE air kit, Power Commander and D&D Performance Mufflers (2 into 1 with fake left side.
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the dreaded (but nice looking) Rinehart True Duals.
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i personally spoke to Gerald Rinehart on Tuesday. I will paraphase to make this somewhat short. He designed this system for FL's cruising on the highway, that's why this system is free-flowing, mid to top end performance orientated. He did highlight the fact that a true dual system will come up short compared to a 2-1 system, whatever the manufacturer. I also asked about "reversion", and the size of his baffles. I have the stock 2 1/4 and asked if the 2" would bring back my torque in the birth of my power band. He said it would with a slight sound reduction (as PJ found out)......More said but i think everyone gets it. I personally love the look and sound of his system so i will stay with them and the 2" baffle.......and a S.E. 251 cam. Didn't want the go gear driven due to cost. If anyone changes the cam and stays with the chain drive, the 251 is the cam for this bike. The 257 is a little to top end designed. will post dyno results when cam is installed with race tuner....thanks peter
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Hey Rugbyprop!
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Just picked it up, but wanted to post this before I head to San Jose.
I've got mixed feelings.
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JCZ, not too bad! I'm surprised with the AFR looking that good that you have such a dip, though. Also kinda surprised that it pushed the max. torque point out about 500 rpm. Nevertheless, I bet you can really feel the difference, huh?
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PJ, appreciate the thoughts. I only like to do things once, and right the first time. And as far as cost, you long forget about the cost when everything falls into place. I agree on the knowledge from everyones experience here, it is invaluable. I am also a "gotta have it now kind". The SEEG is [smiley=beerchug.gif]not here yet, maybe another week or so. But all the frilly stuff was ordered over a month ago. The Rhineharts and power items I'll order this this Saturday. 20% off at my usual dealer. Still has and always has given me 20% off even though we have not been able to strike a deal on my last three bikes. As for the bike, a friend of mine just finshed a project bike, almost $40,000 in it. Still not a SEEG! He can have it. Enjoy the ride, everything else goes away when the wind hits your face!
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Hey Rugby! Sounds like you've got a plan and, no doubt, your SEEG will be one sweet ride!!! I do the Chicago HD thing to get 20% off - haven't found anyone that'll do more than 10% here in the DC area, except maybe a once a year sale - then it's usually for one item. I'm into my SEEG for about $38K (and counting). Beside the Woods gear cams, exhaust, race tuner and engine tweeking, I added the tour-pak and chromed everything that wasn't chromed from the factory already (inner primary, starter, calipers, case bolts, switch covers, I'm sure some things I've forgotten). This one is a keeper even though I'm sure the '05 SEEG will have the 6 speed and some more goodies - the second year of a CVO always adds an item or two. Not sure they can top this year's color combos though.
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Well, Finally went and did it. Got my Reinharts in and after some discussion with the HD tech at Barnett HD here in El Paso that was going to do the work on my bike, we both decided a 258 cam would be in order. He was well aware of what effect the Reinharts have on the mid range and thought that this cam/pipe combo would make me happy. Well, after riding it for the first time this morning and opening it up just a bit all I really have to say is ......D A M N !!! [smiley=biggthumpup.gif]. I got a chance to go into the Dyno room with him while he was making his runs and without making any changes to the stock race tuner settings it peaked at 99.5 hp with 104.5 TQ. I don't remember where the peak came in at and I can't tell until I get back to work on Monday. Anal me left the damn sheets on my desk. But one thing I do remember (because thats what the big concern was) there was no drop on TQ between 2k and 3k. Just a steady climb. The air fuel mixture was perfect as could be and he saw no reason to mess with it any more. He mentioned that he can easily pull more from it at mid range, but that would sacrifce the perfect air/fuel mixture that was already there. Suggested I run it like this for a few and when I take it back to have everything rechecked we'd mess with it if I wanted. One other thing to note is that this was done while the Dyno room was close to 95 degrees. It was 89 outside and a hell of alot hotter in the dyno room. The tech told me that on a cool day (or morning) when it's not so hot, it'll easily break 100 hp!. I'll post the Dyno sheets on Monday or sooner if I can run by the office and pick them up. [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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Didi you bump up the rev limiter to 6300rpm? Just noticed the increase on the chart.
ps [smiley=oops.gif]..I know I owe you my dyno but $hit$ been crazy around this way for a few weeks and just havn't benn able to get to it [smiley=dunce2.gif]
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JCZ, not too bad!
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Glad I scanned the dyno sheet here. As AK and I jumped on the freeway this morning my saddle bag flew open and my dyno sheet blew out.
My bike is at Corbin and I pick it up next week. No photos from last night (three SEEGS together) as AK rode his Ultra Classic and any other photos would have been incriminating eveidence this morning. But we had a blast!
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Left the rev limiter @ 6200 [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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As AK and I jumped on the freeway this morning my saddle bag flew open and my dyno sheet blew out.
Hey JC was your saddle bag latched, I noticed on my bike twice now when I stopped my right saddle bag was unlatched. Do you know if there is anyway to adjust the latches?
Thanks
P.S. one nice thing about our winters here is our bikes last longer, you guys keep putting on all those miles your going to be buying the 2005 SEEG. [smiley=1syellow1.gif]
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Hey JC was your saddle bag latched, I noticed on my bike twice now when I stopped my right saddle bag was unlatched. Do you know if there is anyway to adjust the latches?
Thanks
P.S. one nice thing about our winters here is our bikes last longer, you guys keep putting on all those miles your going to be buying the 2005 SEEG. [smiley=1syellow1.gif]
The latches are adjustable, as I understand it. Not sure that I had the bag tucked in under the tongs on the inside, thow. It's possible to latch it and the inside not be tucked all the way under.
Valid point.....is the glass half full or half empty? I look forward to wearing my motorcycles out......that much closer to the next new one! lol [smiley=1syellow1.gif]
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The owners manual talks about adjusting the latches on the bags. Not much info but it is on page 50.
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The owners manual talks about adjusting the latches on the bags. Not much info but it is on page 50.
One more example of why I like this board so much. Thanks 67.
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Hey JCZ! Wish I lived near Corbin...what a sweet deal! By the way, do you have any idea what Corbin is creating with your SEEG? I'm looking for a low profile "cruiser" seat to use around town. Their "Hollywood Solo" seat is pretty cool, but they don't offer a pillion pad. I need something with at least a little something in back for the hottie I might pick up (hope my wife never reads finds this site). Anybody else got any ideas or seen any seats? Also, what's the issue with fitment on the seats. I figured a Road King seat would do just fine, but apparently and depending on the seat there might be a gap between the seat, frame and tank console. I like the way Corbin handled that issue in the design of their SEEG seats - but i don't know if it's really a problem with other seats or just something aesthetic that nobody but fanatics like us would even notice. I've looked at Mustang, Le Pera, Saddlemen and High End (who I think makes a few seats for HD, e.g. p/n 51544-04). I've always liked Corbin's firm feel and I'm hoping they come out with other SEEG seats. Thanks, PJ
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One more example of why I like this board so much.
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The owners manual talks about adjusting the latches on the bags. Not much info but it is on page 50.
Oh, you supposed to read those? [smiley=confused5.gif]
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No damage done I hope? [smiley=confused5.gif] [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Photos of D&D Exhaust, 2 into 1, with fake left side. My computer is hassleing me, may have to post one at a time.
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Keep the photos comin big guy, you just teasin us, showing us the backs of the pipes? Have you run a Dyno on the D-D yet?
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Here's the next one!
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Here's the third one.
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Ok, here's no.4
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Sorry, but here's the last one.
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What are the numbers on your dyno sheet?
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Nice setup how loud are they? Like the air horn. [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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The dyno sheet is from D&D on a 2003 SE.
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I emailed D & D Performance Exhaust last night. Their Web address is http://www.danddexhaust.com
I asked them for a dyno sheet on a 103 CI SE with SE Air Kit, Race Tuner and the Fat Cat 2 into 1 exhaust. I noticed they list this and then the Fakey pipe for the other side to give you the Dual Exhaust look as two part numbers.
Here is the reply I got:
I beleive this is the one you seek. I have mapping here to send to you when you get the Race Tuner. It was done here at 675' and the weather conditions may be different but it will get ou close enough to ride and dial it iin. Have a great day.
Donny E.
Tech Support
But if the image is not good like the previous one from Hotlineguy the numbers were 109.9 torque and 93.9 h.p. at 4500 RPM, Torque at 5500 dropped to around 100 and the h.p. was at 104.9. There is still a dip in the torque from 2000-2500 RPM like some others have shown but I don't think it is any worse.
JCZ, I have not had a chance to look at this chart compared to yours, what are your thoughts? Still like the idea of the D & D?
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This and mine were done on two different dynos.
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Rugbyprop, thanks for getting that dyno sheet posted, I was having a hard time with my computer that day.
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No Problem Hotlineguy. I think we are all interested in the same thing here. What seems to produce the most of what each may want. I think I have made my decision on the Race Tuner, SE Air kit, and the D & D exhaust set up. I am calling the two dealers I deal with today, one I trust with my bike, the other I am not quite sure of and see what they say on $ I think I might do the install, get the maps and do the first part myself unless on the deal I can get the Dyno tune done at N/C or a good deal. Of course bike has to get here first!
JCZ I think Sacremento and the altitude at D-D might not be far off of each other, the temp and humidity between Oct and when yours was done may be closer than we think too. At least we are not looking at numbers from say 700 ft. and 5000 ft. and a 50 degree temp difference. The variable of two different dynos and operators is probably a greater difference! It's all good to this point.
Bike is supposedly on the truck. I am going to see if I can get these items in and ready to install at set up. I'll be in Denver all week at a Snap-On show anyway. Maybe by next week I can show ya some orange and black photos! [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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Here are the dyno results along with the mods on my 03 serk.
The dreaded (but good looking) Reiniharts w/ 2.25 baffles;
SE Aircleaner/intake mod. (stage 1);
SE Race Tuner (new version. Important to get a new or updated version to make sure you have the latest downloads from HD) especially for this engine;
SE 258 Racing use only (yeah right!) cams;
Parts were installed at Barnett HD in El Paso without any mods done to the downloads(yet). Went from the box to the bike to the dyno..out the door! . AFR was so perfect, tech did not want to mess with it any further until I drove it for a few. I'll take it back to Barnett in a couple of weeks to have everything checked and begin messing with it If I so desire. He felt that there was some room for improvement on the mid range but at the expense of the AFR. If I want to, it's there. One other note. It was easily in the mid 90s in the dyno room (mid 80's outside). The tech did say "get this thing on a cool morning you'll break 100 hp easily..and then some....Cool
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Numbers look good. Anyone have a dyno run with rhineharts, race tuner, and SE Airflow. With no other work. I called three dealers, all recommended the Rhineharts or Thunder headers because that was all they were familiar with. They siad the Rhineharts looked strong on the Dyuno he rememberd but the FHLRSEI had alot of head work done woth cam. I don't see the point if to see the numbers you also have to do cam. I am going to try the D - D and see if we get close, if I have to be the guinea pig no problem, let's see what happens. [smiley=drink.gif]
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I think that without doing any cam work, your best bet would be to use the d&d if what you are looking for is low end grunt. The lack of back pressure inherent with any duals (as in the reinharts) gives you more of a top end at the expense of the low end however. The addition of the cams just gave me the best of both worlds, but at greater expense. Good luck [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Come on guys,
Hasn't ANYBODY ordered a 120 inch kit for one og these SEEGs YET?
Somebody needs to get past my lil 'ol 116 inch '01 SERG on a straightaway OR in a curve! [smiley=laugh.gif]
I would have expected better......how 'bout it JCZ???????
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Daaaannnngg. Where'd you get the 116 much less the 120"? [smiley=surprised.gif]. Is it HD or aftermarket?
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The cylinders and pistons and crank are from S&S. They also did the Machine work to the original cases. The cam is a Woods TW-8G. The oil pump is a Fueling. The intake is the original Magneti Morelli from Harley but Gerolomy did the heads and opened up the throttle body. Baker did the 6 speed. Harley did the race clutch. Progressive did the suspension. True-track did the torsion arm. Pioneer did the Stereo. JL Audio did the front & rear speakers. Harley did the Air Zeplin Seat.
Double D Customs in Stockton did the work.
So I guess, in answer to your question...EVERYBODY did SOMETHING. [smiley=7.gif]
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The cylinders and pistons and crank are from S&S. They also did the Machine work to the original cases. The cam is a Woods TW-8G. The oil pump is a Fueling. The intake is the original Magneti Morelli from Harley but Gerolomy did the heads and opened up the throttle body. Baker did the 6 speed. Harley did the race clutch. Progressive did the suspension. True-track did the torsion arm. Pioneer did the Stereo. JL Audio did the front & rear speakers. Harley did the Air Zeplin Seat.
Double D Customs in Stockton did the work.
So I guess, in answer to your question...EVERYBODY did SOMETHING. [smiley=7.gif]
My hero......in a league of 1. [smiley=laugh.gif]
Gary where have you been? We haven't heard from you since the Easyriders Bike Show.
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I know I asked these questions before but I will try again,
1) does anyone know the specs of this SE253 cam?
2) are the valves sizes the same as an 88TC? (if not do you know the sizes)
3) how much lift can the stock springs handle?
[smiley=bigok.gif]
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CVO 253 Cams: Valve lift; IN/EX .530"
8620 carbonized steel (same as S.E. camshafts)
Valve sizes: same as TC88
Valve spring load: 430# per inch/ seat pressure 170# @ 1.820"
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dickie, check those numbers.
253 cam - lift @valve intake/exhaust. .550"
this is what Harley told dealer. He is working on the timing @ .053 lift open/close and duration for me as well
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CVO 253 Cams: Valve lift; IN/EX .530"
8620 carbonized steel (same as S.E. camshafts)
Valve sizes: same as TC88
"
Think you're wrong on the valve sizes. Where did you get that info? The head is an undecked casting with S/E style porting. Normal S/E heads have bigger intakes than stock heads - how could this 103 possibly have stock valves?
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I emailed D & D Performance Exhaust last night.
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Was thinking about the white bros 2 into 1's, but will look at the d&d pipe as well thanks for the info. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Think you're wrong on the valve sizes.
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In regards to the SE253
is it .530 or .550 lift?
what about the duration and LSA?
I am just curious, does anybody have the shop manual?
Is this information in there?
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As far as i've been told one can't get that information. And i was told the information was proprietory (straight from the rep at the Motor Comp.) Although, i was told the 253 has .550" on the lift. that's it. I explained i would like to know the duration of the cam so i could match up a gear-driven set up if i change it out. She said "you need to have a good mechanic too match another cam with that engine build. Actually, i think i did and he said he wanted too try on his own to get the info. He was adament about not going with short duration cams such as the Woods 5g (234 degees) and S&S 570(240 degree) he said our 103" valvetrain will not last !! "Harley engines are not S&S. you need too be careful" So....he is analyzing the duration numbers, he was most concerned with those, and is gonna come up with a set-up. It just might be a se cam.
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Got this info at the dealer. It was out of a spiral CVO booklet they had in early '03 when I bought my SERK 103". I'll check back with them on the accuracy of this info. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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I have popping on deceleration so I took it to the shop Sat. The Service Director rode it and agrees that I probably have an exhaust leak. But he also commented on how when you back off the throttle, it basically falls on it's face (kind of like you loose power) and your upper body throws forward a bit.
So, they're going to put it back on the dyno and see what's going on........no charge. I'll keep you guys posted.
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J.C.,
Have the same noise with my SEEG. Took the bike in on Monday for the dyno and to re-work the White Bros slip-ons that were installed when I first picked up the bike. You might want to give them a call in service. Seems odd that both our bikes would pop on deacceleration. G. Baker is out on vacation until next Tuesday. Hidden antenna is also being installed.
Ben
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J.C.,
Have the same noise with my SEEG.
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Here, at long last is my dyno sheet. Damn Scanner!! It reflects my bike stock and after modifications. Mods include:
Freedom Cycle True Duals (Modified Rineharts)
Pro Hypercharger (K&N Filter)
Freedom Cycle Cams, # 7's
Head porting
The motor was specifically modified for usable torque and there is no rev limiter mod. [smiley=6.gif]
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hi guy's,
i am new to the forum, and would like to respond to some of the posts.
1st : the guy's with the bike that are popping on decel. are you running the stock header pipes? do you have a power commander or some kind of tuner? if your bike has been dyno tuned, and the air fuel ratio set, there is nothing wrong with a little pop on decel. the left pipe is a dud, and the air in that pipe is not as hot as the right. when a vaccum is created by closing the throttle, the air meets and POP. there is really nothing you can do about it without changing the header pipe. my buddy got rid of his by richining up the fuel mixture a bit. but if your air fuel mixture is corect, isn't it better to have your bike run good, than too rich?
2nd: ther were some questions about the specs on the se-103 engine. someone said the info was proprietary and that is corect. however, after many phone calls to motor company i got someone to fax me over what he had. heads: the heads are unique to this engine, and have a 9.1 comp ratio. the exhaust valve diameter is 1.62in. the intake valve is 1.90in. the valve seat pressure is approximately 170 lbs @ 1.82inch. the valve spring load is 430lb per inch. the max lift is 570-575. the se-253 cams have a lift of 530/530. they will not tell me the duration.
i hope this info helps someone. i am still frustrated. but finding this site was a real plus.
hd told me that they will probably go public with more info at the end of the summer.
they have already released new se-103+ parts that they want us to spend our money on.http://mysite.freeserve.com/harleyhog1/seproparts04.pdf
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Wow pcc those are the leanest A/F numbers I've seen, although the rest of your dyno looks great???
As far as the popping on decel. I had this problem from the start and tuned it out by adding more fuel only on decelleration when the throttle was at 0%. worked perfect and if i'm wasting a little gas its only at very limited times.
kng, I've heard the theory before about sucking air in from the left pipe and i'm not saying i disagree but there are people that have true duels or 2 into 1 that still have the problem so i don't know. anyways welcome to the site [smiley=drink.gif]
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hi guy's,
i am new to the forum, and would like to respond to some of the posts.
1st : the guy's with the bike that are popping on decel. are you running the stock header pipes? do you have a power commander or some kind of tuner? if your bike has been dyno tuned, and the air fuel ratio set, there is nothing wrong with a little pop on decel. the left pipe is a dud, and the air in that pipe is not as hot as the right. when a vaccum is created by closing the throttle, the air meets and POP. there is really nothing you can do about it without changing the header pipe. my buddy got rid of his by richining up the fuel mixture a bit. but if your air fuel mixture is corect, isn't it better to have your bike run good, than too rich?
2nd: ther were some questions about the specs on the se-103 engine. someone said the info was proprietary and that is corect. however, after many phone calls to motor company i got someone to fax me over what he had. heads: the heads are unique to this engine, and have a 9.1 comp ratio. the exhaust valve diameter is 1.62in. the intake valve is 1.90in. the valve seat pressure is approximately 170 lbs @ 1.82inch. the valve spring load is 430lb per inch. the max lift is 570-575. the se-253 cams have a lift of 530/530. they will not tell me the duration.
i hope this info helps someone. i am still frustrated. but finding this site was a real plus.
hd told me that they will probably go public with more info at the end of the summer.
they have already released new se-103+ parts that they want us to spend our money on.http://mysite.freeserve.com/harleyhog1/seproparts04.pdf
KNG103 welcome to the board and thanks for your input. I understand totally, what you're saying. I have a V&H Pro Pipe. It doesn't just pop a little, on deceleration, it's popping a lot and loud. The Service Manager rode my bike and agrees that something is not right. I've got my date next week and will take my bike in, as scheduled. I'll post back here, the results. Thanks again.
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kng103 thanks most info so far, I wonder why moco wants all this secrecy? I just got the service manual supplement for our bikes and their is no helpful info in it what so ever!!! [smiley=furious.gif]
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OFFENDER.
did you click on the link i posted?
the moco wants us to change pistons, heads, and cams.
thay dont want to tell us what little mods we can do to gain performance.
i was reading here that some of the members have already changed cams, and had good results.
the moco told me not to change anything. that all of the components of this bike were specific to this bike.
i spent alot of money making my bike a screaming eagle road king, and i am not about to dumb another 2 grand into it.
i will be patient, and wait and see what they do. also what members of this forum will do.
besides, i dont want to void my warranty.
if i knew then what i know now, i could have built a 95ci, that would blow this one out of the water.
still i am confident that with a few small mods, this bike can really perform, and still be a great touring bike.
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103 I do appreciate the insight. If the cam is in fact .530/.530 that is sufficient lift for where I want to go however, the heads with those valves sizes are too restricted and need to be opened up on both valves. I have a stock set of TC88 heads sitting on my work bench that I needed to know if they were going to need some massaging (got them on ebay for $100). So despite what the moco wants, I want mo'preformance for less money!!! [smiley=1syellow1.gif]
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I have popping on deceleration so I took it to the shop Sat.
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jcz,
i have the same problem with the popping and the loss of power when i go full throttle.
do you know what they did to fix it?
i have already had the bike dyno tuned and the air fuel ratio is almost perfect.
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jcz,
i have the same problem with the popping and the loss of power when i go full throttle.
do you know what they did to fix it?
i have already had the bike dyno tuned and the air fuel ratio is almost perfect.
I'm not sure exactly what they did. I can tell you that my friend at HD sent my dyno sheet to the person that he thought to be the most knowledgable person at the Motor Company, regarding the 103" and this was his response to my first dyno:
"the torque being up high in rpm is mainly a result of the CVO cam.....the cam is actually a high rpm cam....it is good for about 7000 rpm peak HP....with the right induction module/carb.
As far as making it pull a little better on the bottom end....I would try rolling some timing in....as you know when we cal we have to do it for worst case.....hot, high comp, etc. ....his engine may be able to handle a little more...... but remember if he takes it to Az. he may need to be careful.....hot with bad fuel......ion sensor should correct for this.....but it is a picky beast.
As a side note.....it looks like the AFR is flat at 13.5:1......this is recommended in the manuel to ease tunning....but he may pick up a little at WOT with a slightly richer (12.8) AFR.....and I hope the cruise range was returned to 14.5 or so......I am afraid some technicians have tuned the VE values to achieve the 13.5:1 every where and then leave it.....AFR table should be returned to something similar to what was in the base cal and then tweaked for power after the VE's are returned...."
I took this email with me, when I took the bike back for the re-tune. Other than that, don't really know what they did and they seem to want to keep the details close to the chest.
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Update.....my bike started popping again, after about 250-300 miles. It gradually got worse, to the point where it started popping when I'd accelerate and shift.....it would pop during the shifts (as I rolled off the gas and pulled the clutch in). I dropped it off again, last night. I'll keep you guys posted.
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Weld was busted on the rear cylinder exhaust flange. It's all good now! Bike is home.
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JCZ - Had my bike dyno tuned last week at dealer and am getting the exact same poping, also seems some of the low end is gone from before tuning. At the same time had SE air kit, SE mufflers and race tuner installed. Was a little disapointed that it didn't pull better. Talked to the dealer and they said bring it back in which I am scheduled to do next week. Will also take a look at the flange. Thanks
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JCZ - Had my bike dyno tuned last week at dealer and am getting the exact same poping, also seems some of the low end is gone from before tuning.
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Just had my bike dynoed today and thought I'd post the results. Only modifications to the bike are SE air filter, SE one-piece (slash up) slip-ons, and the standard Stage 1 reflash courtesy of the SE race tuner. You guys have shown there's a lot more in these bikes, but I'm real happy with the way mine runs, especially compared to the 2002 88" Electra Glide Classic I'm coming from. I think I may stop here before things start getting expensive. [smiley=laugh.gif]
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Here's the graph above along with the one from my '02 with the same mods. Like the saying goes, there's no substitute for cubic inches. The extra 20 ft/lbs. of torque is very noticeable on this bike. [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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Had mine dyno-tuned 96hp & 100 ftp tourque, the only mods were EFI race tuner SE air cleaner & Vance & Hines oval slip-ons, not bad for a stock motor
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Had mine dyno-tuned 96hp & 100 ftp tourque, the only mods were EFI race tuner SE air cleaner & Vance & Hines oval slip-ons, not bad for a stock motor
Your bike is capable of more than that, with the right tuner. Our mods are real similar....take a look at my dyno.
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I am draggin' this old post out because I finally bit it and spent $300 on having my scooter dynoed. First let me say it wasn't easy finding someone in my area that would work with the HD race tuner and also had the qualifications to do the dialing in, second I wish I hadn't waited so long to do it, it has made a very noticable improvement!!! [smiley=biggthumpup.gif]
so attached is a print out.
PS: the redline is the map that was suppled to me by D&D Performance with my exhaust (not the stock one).
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OFENDER
NOW TELL ME HOW YOU GET THAT BAGGER TO GET THAT FRONT WHEEL OFF THE GROUND LIKE THAT[smiley=nixweiss.gif] & WHAT MAKES IT BANG [smiley=confused5.gif]
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Am sending my dyno sheet to JC to scan and post from the work Freedom cycle did while in reno.
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OFENDER
NOW TELL ME HOW YOU GET THAT BAGGER TO GET THAT FRONT WHEEL OFF THE GROUND LIKE THAT[smiley=nixweiss.gif] & WHAT MAKES IT BANG [smiley=confused5.gif]
First it is important to get it rollin in 1st gear cause from a dead stop the tire just goes up in smoke, once your rollin' pull in the clutch get the R's up to about 4500 miniumum and let go the clutch [smiley=1syellow1.gif]
oh yeah hold on real tight cause when this big ass heavy scooter comes down you will find out what the [smiley=stars.gif] BANG[smiley=stars.gif] is!!!
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OFFENDER
OK I GOT IT [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]. CAN YOU SHOW SOME REAL PICS OF THIS ACTION [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Some where JC posted a picture of a buddy doing a wheelie at the track not sure what thread it was in. Yes you can get the front wheel in the air first few times it is a real rush.
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First it is important to get it rollin in 1st gear cause from a dead spot the tire just goes up in smoke, once your rollin' pull in the clutch get the R's up to about 4500 miniumum and let go the clutch
Ofender,
Rightly or wrongly I was suspecting that he was asking about the animated gif. I have admired the gif .............. did you create this yourself?
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Hey Magoo:
FYI, every 103 that Freedom has done so far, and I think there have been 7 including the 03 SERK's have been right where your bike is with the Freedom Pipes, aircleaner mod and Power Commander. Also, all of the baseline maps that they have have been from
84-88HP and 88-92 TQ, which is real close to where Harley reports for this motor in stock trim. Their dyno is right on the money. Glad you went to see them. [smiley=laugh.gif]
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Also, all of the baseline maps that they have have been from
84-88HP and 88-92 TQ, which is real close to where Harley reports for this motor in stock trim.
Yes but I think that the HD figures are not at the back wheel.
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The figures for the 103" build in the Screamin Eagle section of the catalog are at the back wheel. Harley actually claims 100 ft lbs. of torque for this motor in the literature. That figure is an engine figure.
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The figures for the 103" build in the Screamin Eagle section of the catalog are at the back wheel. Harley actually claims 100 ft lbs. of torque for this motor in the literature. That figure is an engine figure.
PCC,
I stand corrected.
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Ofender,
Rightly or wrongly I was suspecting that he was asking about the animated gif. I have admired the gif .............. did you create this yourself?
Yes I did create the gif. [smiley=laugh.gif]
Gas mileage update:
Went out for a couple hundred mile run this weekend and I am now getting about 32MPG versus 25MPG since having the FI dynoed and dialed in, I am a very happy camper [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]
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This in regards to the gas mileage update above. I filled mine up last nite (05 SEEG) made a 62.5 mile loop and filled it up again, Took 1.53 gallons and that is 40.84 MPG. So am I missing something on your 25 MPG or what? The bike now has 241 miles on it, so I expect better as time goes on.
I have SE Pro Mufflers, SE Air Filter & Download but waiting for the dealer to do the first service (which they say is free, I am smart enough to know I paid for it) then after that I do all my own service etc and will install the stuff. But I hate to think my mileage as low as yours.
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Man 25-32mpg that seems very low. I had pipes and a power commander put on mine got 102hp & 105tpq and mileage went from 37mpg to 45mpg. Maybe you should have it checked?
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As i have heard mentioned on this board, it is all in the right wrist.
The particular trip I refer to, I was running pretty steady 85 mph and bounced off [smiley=6.gif] the 120 mph mark a couple of times (just checking out the new mapping) on the interstate heading home.
All in all 32 MPG makes me happy [smiley=1syellow1.gif]
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32 mpg does not sound that bad for the type of riding it sounds like Ofender does. I have pipes/air cleaner/RT and the only time my bike ever returns 40 mpg or more is when momma is with me and we set the cruise at 60 mph for a tank. Going to and coming from the Smokies (alone) with the cruise set anywhere between 75 and 85mph I consistently got 35-37.5 mpg.
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And, another sticky. If you guys disagree with those that I've put a sticky on, please let me know.
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JC finally got a new dyno sheet for the work done at freedom cycle, now the computer at home is down. I will see if I can get some one at work to scan it so I can finally post it. Ok whats a sticky??
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JC finally got a new dyno sheet for the work done at freedom cycle,
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Thanks was just curious not to computer savey.
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Well.... tomorrow will be an interesting day for the red bike. 1700 miles or so on it now and pretty much all the changes that are going to be made to it have been made. So tomorrow it goes on the dyno to dial things in. Find myself a bit more than mildly curious both about where it starts from and where it ends up.
Have gone online looking for the various incantations or patron saints that might be good to invoke right before it goes to the dyno. But it seems any magic will have to come from the hands of the dyno guy.
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Hey guys, post those numbers if you can. I'm very interested in your results. I've got the Freedom Cycle pipes, Power Commander, & air cleaner on my bike and haven't had a chance to dyno it yet!!! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Hey guys, post those numbers if you can.
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Just got back from the dyno shop. The numbers are ok. I still wish the torque curve pulled in earlier. But the numbers are about what I expected.
These numbers come on an 05 with the Stage I chip, air cleaner, true duals and White Brother's E Series mufflers done on a day when it's about 70 degrees outside and an elevation of about a thousand feet. The before and after on the dyno sheet both include all those things. The only difference before and after is tuning the Power Commander.
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Just got back from the dyno shop.
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2lane, those are pretty good numbers! You should be happy with the gain from the dyno time! Your "before" numbers are almost exactly where I am at with SE one-piece slip-ons, SE air cleaner, and generic Stage 1 map from the Race Tuner, except that my torque peak is about 200 - 300 rpm earlier. That's probably the difference between my stock head pipes and your true duals. After seeing your "after" numbers, I can't wait to see how much more I can get from mine once I find a Race Tuner Wizzard as good as your Power Commander Doctor.
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Just got back from the dyno shop.
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Yeah, I'm pretty pleased with the way the engine turned out. I do wish the torque map fell a little earlier. And knew I'd be losing just exactly that to a small amount with the true duals. But the torque curve is still stronger than what I had before the SEEG and I like the looks of the true duals enough to make the trade off. In actuality it's all a personal conspiracy to work on convincing myself that I should go ahead and change cams sometime before spring [smiley=7.gif]
To answer the question from above I honestly don't know what the baffles in the E Series mufflers are. White Brothers offered something they called a "Mountain" baffle that they suggested was better for engines over 100 cu in. But the dyno guy said that in his experience they didn't really help except at the high end and that they were VERY LOUD. Good loud is ok. Good loud makes me happy. VERY LOUD I can do without.
Another nice byproduct of finally getting the dyno tuning done is that the engine is much smoother across the band now too. Noticable climbing up the throttle and coming back down.
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Yeah, I'm pretty pleased with the way the engine turned out.
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Hey Mas & Twolane, How long did it take to dyno and what should I expect to pay to have mine run. [smiley=nixweiss.gif] When I get it!!!!!!!! JR [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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The guy that did man spent just over an hour on the bike on the dyno.
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MAS and Twolanerider's dyno's make a great point about not pushing the rev limiter to 6200 rpm. Although that change comes with the Stage 1 ECM change, unless you're going to do some head work and change cams, it's useless. Torque is falling off dramatically in that rpm range and Hp actually looks like it might be falling off too. Keep these bikes under 5800 and protect those motors.
By the way MAS, IMO the difference between your dyno sheet and others is the pipes.
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Hey Mas & Twolane, How long did it take to dyno and what should I expect to pay to have mine run. [smiley=nixweiss.gif] When I get it!!!!!!!!
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Are you considering the tw5g cams as that is what I have in mind as the "bolt in" without screwin with the top end...???
Yeah, all along I've considered that my fall-back option would be a cam change were I not satisfied with the seat-of-the-pants feel after the dyno tuning finally got done. Though I was leaning more toward the 6HG over the 5G of the Woods cams.
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By the way MAS, IMO the difference between your dyno sheet and others is the pipes.
PCC,
I agree. I think the tech did a good job with what he had to work with. I knew I would sacrifice some power with my choice of pipes and baffles.When you look through the cans you have a clear view of the pipes! As others have stated a 2 into 1 would probably be best but I like true duals on a bagger so I'll compromise.
The bike really goes on the top end. I ran the bike up to 110 last night on the freeway heading out to the desert and it felt like it had some more... a lot more. Problem is, that is not where most of my riding is done. So, I may change slip ons and go with a set of gear driven cams sometime in the future to change the power band a bit and realize some more HP and TQ.
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Hey Mas & Twolane, How long did it take to dyno and what should I expect to pay to have mine run. [smiley=nixweiss.gif] When I get it!!!!!!!!
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JCZ,
I'm in Maryland, Freedom is in Reno. So I had them send me the pipes, air cleaner, and Power Commander (pre programmed) and I installed everything here. I've heard all the claims and seen the posts, but I still want to have my local dyno guy run it to check the numbers and varify that all the fuel ratios are were they're suppose to be. The bike does seem to be running very good though. [smiley=cool3.gif]
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JCZ,
I'm in Maryland, Freedom is in Reno.
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O4 FLHTCSE 103 CID
211 SE CAMS
SE BREATHER KIT
SE RACE TUNER
FLT THUNDER HEADER TWO INTO ONE W/LEFT DUMMY PIPE
110 FT. LB. FROM 3500 TO 4300 RPM
104 MAX
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O4 FLHTCSE 103 CID
211 SE CAMS
SE BREATHER KIT
SE RACE TUNER
FLT THUNDER HEADER TWO INTO ONE W/LEFT DUMMY PIPE
110 FT. LB. FROM 3500 TO 4300 RPM
104 MAX
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O4 FLHTCSE 103 CID
211 SE CAMS
SE BREATHER KIT
SE RACE TUNER
FLT THUNDER HEADER TWO INTO ONE W/LEFT DUMMY PIPE
110 FT. LB. FROM 3500 TO 4300 RPM
104 MAX
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Bear asked me to post his dyno runs for him:
Run #111 is the CVO-253 cam tuned with the SE Race Tuner.
Run #101 is the SE-211 cam installed but not tuned.
Run # 201 is the SE-211 cam tuned with the SE Race Tuner.
He used the SE-211 because it can be installed without pulling the heads. I think there is more to be found with a larger lift cam like the SE-251, or 257, and a .030" Cometic head gasket, but it the heads would have to come off and all the valve clearances checked.
You can see the SE-211 was too lean and it lost power without being tuned. Tuned the A/F line is right at 13.3 to 1.
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THE 211 CAMS ARE ALMOST THE SAME AS THE STOCK CAMS IN THE 103 SE JUST A TAD SMALLER IN FACT. WITH PROPER TUNNING YOU SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEMS IN TRAFFIC OR AT LOW RPM.
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I'm not trying to be difficult or a smart***, but did anyone ever find out what the factory cam specs were? Are they the same as the 103" kit in the catalog? If they are would some one please post the specs. I would like to add a little power to mine since my brother -in -laws Heritage keeps up to me now. How much of a compression increase would the Cometic .030 gaskets get me? Thanks in advance.
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THE 211 CAMS ARE ALMOST THE SAME AS THE STOCK CAMS IN THE 103 SE JUST A TAD SMALLER IN FACT. WITH PROPER TUNNING YOU SHOULD HAVE NO
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I have the some of the specs for the CVO-253 cam but they are at the house, had to beg to get what I got..... I know the lift is .530", which is .022" (point gap for a Panhead)more then the SE-211. Difference is all in the timing, remember the CVO-253 is EPA legal and it is the cam in all the SE 103" bikes and the 103" kits.
As for who suggested the cam change, that would be me. I pulled the front head to see how big a cam could be installed without doing anything else. The problem is clearance for the valve seal, min spec is .080", would have been down to .026" with the SE-251 on the front exhaust. I've used the SE-211 before in a 103" with 9.8 to 1 compression, awesome bottom end right where you ride 98% of the time!
I'm guessing here: a .030" Cometic gasket would bump compression 1/4 to 1/2 point? One would have to cc the heads to kown the correct answer. I'm thinking any increase would be a plus. In my opinion the SE-251 would be the logical choice once all the valve clearances were set, the SE-257 likes compression and raising the compression is a liitle more difficult in this motor then a normal TC-88 because of the hemi combustion chamber.
Final question; I used the stock pushrods because I had both rocker boxes off and the base circle from the CVO-253 to the SE-211 is only .020" difference. I'll throw a set of adjustables at it if BEAR complains about valve train noise when hot.
The weather here has been rain and more rain, so he hasn't been able to put any miles on it, he has a nice surprice waiting for him.
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Well at long last I can post my dyno sheet bfor the work done at Freedom cycle in Reno.
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Magoo, those are awesome numbers! I just received my Freedom pipes and Powercommander today. I will have the dealer install them on Saturday. I hope those are the same numbers I get.
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CVO-253 specs: .530" lift, duration 239 both intakes / 256 front exhaust, 255 rear exhaust. Must have a slight timing difference from front to rear cylinder? I asked for the opening and closing specs.... felt lucky to get this much!
In case anyone is wondering why I call them 'CVO'; the cams are stamped CVO-253.
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Well at long last I can post my dyno sheet bfor the work done at Freedom cycle in Reno.
Good peak numbers, Magoo, but I wonder what's going on between 2,000 and 3,000 rpm? No gain whatsoever over stock in that range. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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... Difference is all in the timing, remember the CVO-253 is EPA legal and it is the cam in all the SE 103" bikes and the 103" kits.
DEB,
Thanks for the info you have been quite helpful. I am going to pass your post and Bears' dyno sheet on to my tech so he can know what he is working with in my engine. He is sharp I just think he has had limited exposure to the 103 and does not have specs on the heads or cams. I think he will now feel more comfortable recommending a cam. The parts guys kept telling me to go with a 257 or 258 but I kept telling them that the heads on my bike were not set up for those cams, and when I questioned them about the 211's they said my engine was too big as they should go on a 95 build. I think, no I know, that there is a lot of misconceptions about these 103's.
I think the 211's will be the ticket as I want to keep the warranty in tact and keep the cost down. Otherwise, I would do headwork, change to forged pistons and put a set of big fat gear driven cams in [smiley=laugh.gif].
Thanks again,
Mark
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103thunder I like the fact that it didn't change below 2500-3000 makes the bike very rideable at rush hour speeds in heavy traffic, but when you get on it it hauls ass just like I wanted. Loose Goose your #'s should be close Brad does a great job, but that being said all bikes a slightly different. Look forward to you posting the dyno sheet.
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103thunder I like the fact that it didn't change below 2500-3000 makes the bike very rideable at rush hour speeds in heavy traffic,
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I did JC go back to page 12 at the bottom. Its like 7 post back.
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I did JC go back to page 12 at the bottom.
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Thanks JC, But you got to keep up on this stuff. Kidding a side what did you think of the dyno sheet they do a good job the only dip is low enough thet you don't notice it.
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I`m trying to find a A/F ratio graph on a totaly stock 103 . If anyone has a stock dyno run please post it. I am curious as to just how lean these bikes run from the factory.
Thanks
Dave
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I`m trying to find a A/F ratio graph on a totaly stock 103 . If anyone has a stock dyno run please post it. I am curious as to just how lean these bikes run from the factory.
Thanks
Dave
Dave I don't know of anybody with a dyno sheet for a stock bike, however I can tell you that stock these bikes don't run lean. If anything, the run on the rich side.
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DavidB or JC take a look a my dyno sheet the base run was a stock 103 motor. JC didn't you have a baseline run on yours before the mods?
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DavidB or JC take a look a my dyno sheet the base run was a stock 103 motor.
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Who, me???? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Yep, my dyno sheet is posted on page 4 of this thread.
JC I just looked at that dyno run of yours and was wondering why it's says 4th gear run on the top? would it be different for a fifth gear run?
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Dave I don't know of anybody with a dyno sheet for a stock bike, however I can tell you that stock these bikes don't run lean.
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JC I just looked at that dyno run of yours and was wondering why it's says 4th gear run on the top? would it be different for a fifth gear run?
Yes, it would be a "little" different. My understanding is that Dynojet recommends a 4th gear run. 4th gear is what they run my last Ultra Classic, back when I was in the bay area, too.
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Thanks JCZ that was my main concern. I have not done anything to my bike and was contemplating on installing something to richen it up a little if needed. I can hear it pinging a little under load below 2000 rmp..
David ya gotta remember that it's a stroker......it's gonna be more comfortable above 2,000 rpm especially on a hard pull. Ya might want to rev it just a little higher, before letting the clutch out......it'll take some getting used to. I still get a little rattle now and then, below 2,000 rpm, also. I try to stay out of that range unless I'm idling at a light or something like that.
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Just an FYI from reading the board.
I just recently had engine work completed:
SE 251 Cam
Head work (by Darcy Racing Heads)
Valve work (by Darcy Racing Heads)
SE Race Tuner
D&D Fat Cat 2 into 1 exhaust
SE Breather Kit
104.4 HP
107.09 TQ
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Just an FYI from reading the board.
I just recently had engine work completed:
SE 251 Cam
Head work (by Darcy Racing Heads)
Valve work (by Darcy Racing Heads)
SE Race Tuner
D&D Fat Cat 2 into 1 exhaust
SE Breather Kit
104.4 HP
107.09 TQ
Welcome to the board, and nice #'s. What bike is this on?
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I have a 2004 SE Electraglide (Orange & Black)
It is the best bike I have ever owned
Thanks,
Teddy
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dyno #'s with the 251 cam
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hp #'s
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KNG103 those are pretty good numbers for your motor however, it doesn't show that those dyno runs are SAE corrected. It would be interesting to see after their corrected......which is your true numbers.
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KNG103 those are pretty good numbers for your motor however, it doesn't show that those dyno runs are SAE corrected. It would be interesting to see after their corrected......which is your true numbers.
For the benefit of the folks that want to know the formula for SAE corrected, use tis link and it will explain it and then has a link to the calculator for it.
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/cf.htm
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Mr. MFG
To the rescue again!
That's a great site!
I like to play with the #s
Have saved that site for future reference.
Thanks
Here's a simple one
To determine cubic inches do the following math;
Bore X Bore X Stroke X # of cylinders X .7854 = cubic inches
For CC's take inches X 16.39 = CC's
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KNG103 those are pretty good numbers for your motor however, it doesn't show that those dyno runs are SAE corrected.
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if you multiply the #'s on the site, the sae #'s would actually be much higher.
as far as having 100#'s of torque as delivered, why not?
all he did was change the map for the new mods.
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Here's one more for comparison..05 SEEG, pro pipe, stage 1, race tuner. It feels a lot quicker than before. I'm happy...for now. [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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I told you that you were going to like that Tony. Now we got the same HP and the same tuner, how did you end up with 3 ft lb of torque more than me? Is he learnin something new on tuning? I think we have the exact same mods.
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I told you that you were going to like that Tony.
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It's simple JC.
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I told you that you were going to like that Tony.
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Red ones are always faster! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Hey hd2003,
I beg to differ. Air moves over Black faster than any other color. I'm sure some of our members will research and find this to be fact. You see, I need every advantage I can find to push my overweight Dresser through the air! Later--HUBBARD
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Hey hd2003,
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Thanks JC, But you got to keep up on this stuff. Kidding a side what did you think of the dyno sheet they do a good job the only dip is low enough thet you don't notice it.
What are Freedom Pipes...that's a new one on me. WHo makes them?
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What are Freedom Pipes...that's a new one on me.
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What are Freedom Pipes...that's a new one on me.
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Brad Yuill at Freedom also does some of the best headwork in the industry. Reno, NV 775-848-8600 Brad's direct line.
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Finally had the chance to get the Race Tuner installed and the bike on the dyno. Run 001 is with Rineharts only and run 018 is with the RT, air cleaner and rineharts. Was hoping for a little higher but the bike feels much quicker and runs much smoother.
Sorry about the size. I can't seem to make it any smaller. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Any Smaller? I can't see it as it is. Can ya make it bigger?
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Sorry. Let's try this one.
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Laker,
Air/fuel is consistant. numbers are good across the board.
Mike
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Well, got a baseline dyno done on my 04 FLHTCSE at the local stealer....Rinehart true duals, SE air cleaner and HD race tuner....HP 98.56 Torque 104.15
Fairly good numbers and the curve ain't bad but the Air/Fuel not so great....running a bit lean? Maybe someone can explain to me how to interpret that curve. Anyway, didn't let those yahoos touch it (would you let someone that spells dual as DULE?).
Gonna take Unbalanced's advice and get it over to Roger the Dyno Guy this next week at Daytona to see if he can improve on this and maybe get rid of the popping/backfiring I occasionally get at shifting. Any comments on this dyno graph and what needs to be done to improve it appreciated.
elvis
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After a five week wait, today was dyno tune time for the SEEG. Well, it did'nt happen! The ECM refused every download the tech tried at 33% complete. MoCo Tech not availabe on Saturday so we wait until Monday. Tech thinks there is a problem with the race tuner interface... so needs approval from H-D before opening a new one. I had downloaded the initial map with this race tuner last fall with no problems. There has been a software upgrade since then. I will let you guys know the verdict. [smiley=furious.gif]
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That's yet another example of the poor customer service that HD expects us to accept. A guy is meeting an appointment made. He's bought the parts and is buying the time. Then something happens.
The shop actually has an alternative. Grab another piece of inventory they've got on hand to get back to work for the customer, do the work promised, and meet their responsibilities to him. But because it's feared HD might stick them the cost of a part if they open it without permission they tell the customer that he's got to come back a different day. Just because it's not necessarily a big deal to spend another Saturday at the bike shop doesn't mean it's still not pretty lame....
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Twolane,
I was not too upset about this deal. The long wait was my choice to get a particular tech to tune my bike. He is very popular. He dynos several bikes a week in addition to numerous engin builds. He said he had not seen this problem before and would rather talk to H-D before going further. I feel assured all will come out right in the end. Also, I must leave for Idaho on Monday for the week.... and was able to enjoy the 70+ weather this weekend on the Deuce. [smiley=grin.gif]
Doug
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I am in Daytona Beach for Bike Week. I have 400 miles om my bike and had the fuel injection mapped.I still have the stock ECM rev limiter in the bike.Hooker 2 into 1 exhaust stage 1 air filter power commander. 95 HP @ 5700 rpm and 102 ft lbs of torque. Carls speed shop Daytona Beach FL [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=7.gif]
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I have no clue whether this is good bad or indifferent, this is just the dyno sheet I just got when I picked up my bike after having installed the Vance and Hine Pro Pipe Two into One
[list bull-redball]- Vance and Hines Pro 2 into 1 pipe HS-99-04 FL part # V17533
- EFI race tuner kit part # 32107-01C
- 1450 ST1 EFI Air Cleaner part # 29773-02A
[smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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OK, Now please, don't anyone yell at me. I have no clue whether this is good bad or indifferent, this is just the dyno sheet I just got when I picked up my bike after having installed the Vance and Hine Pro Pipe Two into One
[list bull-redball]- Vance and Hines Pro 2 into 1 pipe HS-99-04 FL part # V17533
- EFI race tuner kit part # 32107-01C
- 1450 ST1 EFI Air Cleaner part # 29773-02A
[smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Uh......Mrs. We CVO may I be the first to suggest that you take your bike to somebody that specializes in performance motors to get it dyno tuned correctly.
You and I have the exact same modifications and you numbers are SAE corrected (or smoothed).
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The wrencher is real young, I am sure I paid for a whole lot of his education.
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Hi Mrs. WeCVO,
Glad you are happy with the bike and at the end of the day, that's all that really matters.
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I had the Wildone 575 bars put on. I only live five miles from the dealership, at 5:30 pm, dark, threatening a rain storm, wind gusting up past 50....... I had little feel for what the mods made.
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right heel thingy
? [smiley=nixweiss.gif] ?
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?
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?
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Or an aftermarket heel guard......the little thing that keeps your heel on the running board and not marking up any chrome anywhere.
JCZ, you got it, that thingy....... My heel kept riding on it, instead of beside it.... thus saving the chrome, but making me look down like an idiot at my floor board. It is all a matter of getting used to things so they become habit. Thanks guys, it did let me laugh at myself, and second to laughing at others, I like laughing at myself. Laughter in fact is real good for you. [smiley=laugh.gif] [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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I have a question! How do you carry the race tuner chip around? They told me to always have it with me on the road in case of problems. [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=nervous.gif]
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I have a question!
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JCZ, you got it, that thingy.......
Oh yeah, the aftermarket heel guard thingy. The red bike even has one. Mrs We if you have a doozy of a time getting used to it there is an option. If you're putting your foot up on top you must have the one that circles around behind the floor board. I had that on the last Road King and did the same thing then as you are now (finally got used to it but it took awhile).
On this bike I got its sister product. Instead of circling around behind it stays beside your foot and just dives down on the side of the footboard. I like it better than the old one and they both accomplish exactly the same thing. They even bolt through the floorboard in the same hole spacing so making a swap would not necessitate drilling more holes.
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Oh yeah, the aftermarket heel guard thingy.
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You knew it was comin'.
elvis [smiley=worthless.gif]
Frack (sorry, too much Battlestar Galactica). You're right, should have expected it though. Here goes.
This heel guard just comes down beside the footboard. No restriction on movement front to back at all. Yet still keeps you off the pipes so no more burned leather or rubber. Have had this thing or it's sister part (that does swing around the rear of the footboard and restricts front to back foot movemnt) on the last couple bikes before the SEEG. It's a 15 minute install, is pretty cheap, and actually does a good job of what it's supposed to without looking crappy in the process.
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Hi Mrs. We, on the race tuner thing..the H-D one that I have has a CD and several cables to connect the bike to a laptop....no chip that I know of..if you are gonna have it re-tuned or dyno'ed take the CD and cables with you..
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Just looked the heel guards up again myself.
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Thanks, 2 Lane.
Don't think I've ever seen 'Physically Challenged' as a model name for a product before....these guys just give up or what are they smokin?
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Thanks, 2 Lane.
Don't think I've ever seen 'Physically Challenged' as a model name for a product before....these guys just give up or what are they smokin?
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Need help from one of you techs. I scaned my dyno sheet as a pdf file and tried to post. My file is 102kb too large (1.1mb) How do I make it smaller?
Thanks,
DOUG
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Need help from one of you techs.
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Finally, I got the SEEG back from the shop. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]Attached is my dyno sheet.
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A chopper shop, got some connections with zippers a short distance from my home has kindly offered to help me out with some of the production issues with my bike. This is what he said about my dyno sheet; http://flhrsei.org/attachments/candyseegdyno.jpg
LOOKING AT THE GRAPH DOES NOT TELL US VERY MUCH. THAT WAS
A 100% THROTTLE PULL, IN OTHER WORDS "WIDE OPEN THROTTLE"
THAT AREA LOOKS GOOD AS FAR AS THE AIR/FUEL GOES. THE PROBLEM
IS, HOW OFTEN ARE YOU AT 100% THROTTLE? MAYBE .5%. IT IS A
SHAME THE H-D SHOP IS SO SET ON THE RACE TUNER. THE POWER
COMMANDER DOES A BETTER JOB, FASTER, AND FOR CONCIDERABLY
LESS MONEY. I WAS A INSTRUCTOR AT MMI (MOTORCYCLES MECHANICS
INSTITUTE)IN PHOENIX AND I TAUGHT THE SCREAMIN' EAGLE
PERFORMANCE CLASSES FOR HARLEY-DAVIDSON. I HAD TO TEACH THE
GUYS ABOUT THE RACE TUNER, AT THE END OF THE PROGRAM I WOULD
SHOW THE STUDENTS THE POWER COMMANDER SYSTEM AND THEY WERE
AMAZED THAT HOW MUCH OF A BETTER SYSTEM IT WAS. THE RACE
TUNER TRYS TO MAKE THE BIKE BE ABLE TO PASS EPA REQUIREMENTS.
THE ACHIEVE THIS BY MAKING THE ENGINE RUN LEAN IN THE LOWER
THROTTLE POSITIONS (THIS IS THE ONLY AREA EPA CHECKS, THIS IS
WHERE YOU NORMALY RIDE AT)THIS WILL GET THE EXHAUST TEMPS UP
PRETTY HI TO BURN OFF HYDROCARBONS. THE PROBLEM WITH THIS IS
IT WILL MAKE THE BIKE RUN HOTTER, DISCOLOR THE EXHAUST, AND
CAUSE POOR PART THROTTLE PERFORMANCE. ANYWAY, I AM SORRY TO
RAMBLE ON ABOUT THIS, BRING YOUR BIKE BY AND WE WILL BE MORE
THAN GLAD TO HELP YOU OUT IN ANYWAY WE CAN........JOHN MEADE
PRO STREET CYCLES, Web; www.ProStreetcycles.net
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To all my friends on the CVO website, well OK to my dog that I have to hang a bone around my neck to get to play with me. I sent an email to Power Commander asking about the up date on the rev limiter. His reply was as follows-"when the Rev-Xtend feature is released it is more than a software download. It will require the unit to have its operating code updated and that can only be done here, so the unit will need to be sent in to Dynojet. As soon as we have a release date more information will be posted on the website." I mentioned (fat chance?) that if they could set up some type of exchanged program to cut back on down time it would be nice.
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Well I just read all 17 pages of this post and not sure what numbers I can expect with the s.e. air cleaner, s.e. slip ons with race tuner on my 05 seeg. 100 plus in each hp and torque? with a good tuner?
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lvnlg
Around 95 is a reasonable expectation for slip ons!
But your tuner has to be a good tuner!
[smiley=beerchug.gif]
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Well I just read all 17 pages of this post and not sure what numbers I can expect with the s.e. air cleaner,
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Thanks guys, that is about what I thought. I already have the parts and will install within the next couple of days. Just turned the 500 mile mark, so i'm ready for those mufflers! I program the cd into the laptop already. Dosen't look to complicted to load in a map. Any tricks or special knowledge needed?
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Thanks guys, that is about what I thought. I already have the parts and will install within the next couple of days. Just turned the 500 mile mark, so i'm ready for those mufflers! I program the cd into the laptop already. Dosen't look to complicted to load in a map. Any tricks or special knowledge needed?
The H-D dealer has a dyno and he puts cd into laptop, connects to your bikes computer and dyno-tunes your bike. Can take 4-5 hours. He tuned it every 250 rpms. Thats the only way you know for sure. Some of the members have done it themselves with good luck. Anyway, good luck on your efforts and More power to you. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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clean burn
are you running 92ot?
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ARE YOU RUNNING A HIGH OCTANE FUEL OR RACE GAS? ITS LOOKS A LITTLE LEAN.
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Looks like CAM2. It still has lead content.
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This is a dynosheet from a
95ci FLHTCUI
Wood TW5G
Underground ported heads (CR 10:1)
White Brother 2 in 1
SE aircleaner
HD racetuner
95 HP and 149 NM (= 110 lb/ft)
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I was thinking the TQ and HP #'s always had to cross at 5250 RPM.
Are these different than good ol American #'s? If so then that must explain the difference.
If not, then why do they not cross at 5250?
****************************
Hmmmmm, just checked. Are Netherland #s different?
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Yeah, the torque is stated in Newton Meters instead of ft./lbs. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Yeah, the torque is stated in Newton Meters instead of ft./lbs. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Yeah but 103T
That still don't explain the dyno chart #s
So am I reading this chart right?
H/P is 95 and TQ is 110
Are those good old American #s or Newton Meters?
You know since that guy lied and scamed us about those Maggie Valley pins I have been confused. [smiley=shocked2.gif]
[smiley=laugh.gif]
**********************************************
I looked again at that chart and don't see 110 as a stopping point on the chart anywhere. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Chip, check out the axis title on the right-hand side. The chart is in NM. He's done the conversion for you from NM to lb./ft. to come up with the 110 number.
-
OK 103T
Help me thru this
so the HP #s are in American on the chart
and the TQ #s are in (Who know what kind of math that is) NM on the chart.
The whole pin scam had me confused, but this dyno chart has me bumfuzzled. (that's a term I learned from Spyder).
[smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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OK 103T
Help me thru this
so the HP #s are in American on the chart
and the TQ #s are in (Who know what kind of math that is) NM on the chart.
The whole pin scam had me confused, but this dyno chart has me bumfuzzled. (that's a term I learned from Spyder).
[smiley=nixweiss.gif]
ROTFLMAO, yeah, you got it, man!
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C'mon Chip. You gotta remember Newton Meters from school man. That's the measure of how far (in meters) the apple rebounds off that Newton guy's head when it's given a good healthy wack with a torque wrench during the rebound. Newton Meters!
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Thanks to 103tHunDer I think I can attach my Dyno Run
03 SE 103"
Reworked Heads by Charlie (SBC)
Reassembled by Frank (HIPPO) c/w S&S 585 Cams
S&S Reed Valve
Rest of Engine Stock
Compression 10:1
HD SE Six Speed Transmission c/w VPC VP 83T
geezerglide
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OOPS,
I previwed the post, then I rembered, someone advised if you add an attacment you should not previes, so here it is hopefully.
geezerglide
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Thanks to 103tHunDer I think I can attach my Dyno Run
03 SE 103"
Reworked Heads by Charlie (SBC)
Reassembled by Frank (HIPPO) c/w S&S 585 Cams
S&S Reed Valve
Rest of Engine Stock
Compression 10:1
HD SE Six Speed Transmission c/w VPC VP 83T
So how much did all this cost you?
geezerglide
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Thanks to 103tHunDer I think I can attach my Dyno Run
03 SE 103"
Reworked Heads by Charlie (SBC)
Reassembled by Frank (HIPPO) c/w S&S 585 Cams
S&S Reed Valve
Rest of Engine Stock
Compression 10:1
HD SE Six Speed Transmission c/w VPC VP 83T
geezerglide
what kind of exhaust are you running?
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Kng103,
I am running Rhienharts True Duals, was thinking of a RBR Racing Black Hole 2:1, or still may experiment with my old V&H Pro Pipe.
geezerglide
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Here tis the Lowrider.
Nancy sure does have fun on this one.
It appears to need a little jet work at the lower RPM's.
But a little rich is not so bad for the motor!
My goal when selecting the parts for this combo was triple digits for H/P, Tq. and giving Nancy a fun machine to ride.
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Here tis the Lowrider.
Nancy sure does have fun on this one.
It appears to need a little jet work at the lower RPM's.
But a little rich is not so bad for the motor!
My goal when selecting the parts for this combo was triple digits for H/P and T and giving Nancy a fun machine to ride.
WOW!
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Bill, WOW is right!!!
The proof is in the readings and I had to see them to believe them!!
I guess that explains why everytime I twist the throttle I feel like I am literally going to fly off of the seat. (Of course, 120+ mph doesn't help!) [smiley=laugh.gif]
It is a FUN bike to ride ... thanks Chip. [smiley=smitten.gif] [smiley=znotworthy.gif]
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Here tis the Lowrider.
Nancy sure does have fun on this one.
It appears to need a little jet work at the lower RPM's.
But a little rich is not so bad for the motor!
My goal when selecting the parts for this combo was triple digits for H/P and T and giving Nancy a fun machine to ride.
Ok, now for some reason the tune to "Annie's Got a Gun" is going through my head..... [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Bill, WOW is right!!!
The proof is in the readings and I had to see them to believe them!!
I guess that explains why everytime I twist the throttle I feel like I am literally going to fly off of the seat. (Of course, 120+ mph doesn't help!) [smiley=laugh.gif]
It is a FUN bike to ride ... thanks Chip. [smiley=smitten.gif] [smiley=znotworthy.gif]
My Deuce is hiding in shame...I may have to remove the Honda Rebel Sticker off the 1896 250 we have and cover the HD name...it is not worthy! It also told me not to post it's Dyno info when I get it tonight.
/Bill
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WFP
Inquiring minds want to know!
and besides [smiley=worthless.gif]
-
WFP
Inquiring minds want to know!
******************************
WELL?
[smiley=worthless.gif]
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WFP
Inquiring minds want to know!
******************************
WELL?
[smiley=worthless.gif]
I am without a scanner and left them at home....the cat ate them...
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I will buy a new scanner tonight...seriously.
Torque from what I remember:
~92 lb-ft for the SED
~98 lb-ft for the SEEG
/Bill
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Against the wishes of the bikes, here are my Dyno Sheets...
First the SED:
-
and now the SEEG:
-
I will buy a new scanner tonight...seriously.
Torque from what I remember:
~92 lb-ft for the SED
~98 lb-ft for the SEEG
/Bill
there is nothing wrong with those graphs.
in fact they look pretty good.
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there is nothing wrong with those graphs.
in fact they look pretty good.
All dyno sheets should from this day forward be like "The Sun" newspaper. Page 1: TQ & HP. Page 2: A/F mixture. Page 3: Girl (or Guy, depending on your preference).
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Here's my printou of the Freedom package I had done today. See this thread for the Ride Report:http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=cvo_ride;action=display;num=1116109423
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As I said in the other thread , those are great #s!
Whats amazing is I compared the air/fuel chart to mine and they look exactly the same.
Just wish I could get some of that "FINE" tuning.
[smiley=drink.gif]
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Wow! [smiley=shocked2.gif] shovelhead, sounds like you made some heavyduty modifications to your scooter! [smiley=thumbsup.gif] 120 mph with momma on the back....I would be looking for some modifications on my back to get the marks off left by my wifes claw prints! Careful, Power is addicting!
You may be interested in this thread I copied from a service advisor warning those doing modifications.
" those who are going to do modifications - ya all better look at the new emmissions law for next year - NO CHANGES to pipes/carb/engine - Like I mentioned
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My Deuce is hiding in shame...I may have to remove the Honda Rebel Sticker off the 1896 250 we have and cover the HD name...it is not worthy!
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your head off
don;t
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And just for the record my dyno post is to big!
But I left it that way for Brian!
You know, (Mr. Slash up mufflers)
He likes those dyno sheets big!
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Thanks to 103tHunDer I think I can attach my Dyno Run
Since this mishap this weekend will try and repost dyno run which 103tHunder posted for me.
03 SE 103"
Reworked Heads by Charlie (SBC)
Reassembled by Frank (HIPPO) c/w S&S 585 Cams
S&S Reed Valve
Rest of Engine Stock
Compression 10:1
HD SE Six Speed Transmission c/w VPC VP 83T
geezerglide
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Geezer,
Very nice.
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Elvis,
No I did not change throttle body, I am still using the stock throttle body. I am going to try my 57mm Wild Thing (Kuryakyn) Throttle Body in Aug.
I went with the HD Six Speed. I went with the complete unit, not gear set. I really wanted to try the Baker DD6, however would have had to wait for a while, so used the HD which was a quicker delivery. Put on over 2,400 miles since install, I really like it a 80mph rpm is 3,000 and 90 it is about 3,400 if I remember correctly.
The VPC 83T is a Variable Pressure Clutch. Earlier post referred to it as similar to "Slipper Clutch". Their is a write up on it in the May issue of Hot Rod Bike. Basically it is a lock up clutch, it reduces the clutch pull by at least 50% of (at normal operating RPM) stock. Not only lighter, but stronger clutch engagement than stock when it revs up. Better clutch engagement and a better feel than stock. Easier to find neutral.
Some have combined the VPC with their Hydraulic Clutch on the Screaming Eagles. Most use is with non hydraulic units. Different configurations for 88", 95" 103" 124' and up.
geezerglide
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Just had my 05 SEEG dyno'd stock. It has 80hp and 84tq. Dyno tech said the fuel line didnt look very good. Too lean down low and way to rich up high. I put on a SE air cleaner, PCIII and D&D Fat Cat 2:1 last night. She is going to be dyno tuned tomorrow. I will post both sheets next week (stock and after mods). Im hopeing to see 100 for each but we will wait and see what the dyno says. [smiley=confused5.gif]
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resized Lowrider results
Thanks Don! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, JCZ,
I would agree with your assertion that the Heads were not flowed. My Zipper's Heads flowed 164CFM, as compared to 150CFM in the SE HTCC Heads. For maximum performance, I also had mine bead blasted, which assists in igniting the fuel. As my "Hallowed" dyno results were deleted in our recent debacle, I feel not to re-post them would be lacking on my part. At any rate, I just could not attain the Horsepower I wanted with bolt on SE parts. Although my "Led Sled" is not a CVO, I promise you it IS a hard cat to clean after! Later--HUBBARD
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Damn, Hubbard, are you sure you didn't strap on one of those jet engines of Maverick's? [smiley=laugh.gif]
BTW, are you using Zippers ECM?
elvis
Yeah, 'er 'uh, Elvis,
-
Here is my stock base line dyno run.
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Here is my dyno run AFTER adding a D&D Fat Cat 2:1, SE Air Cleaner and a Power Commander USBIII
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And finally here is my run AFTER dyno tuning with D&D Fat Cat 2:1, SE Air Cleaner and a Dynojet Power Commander USBIII. The bike runs great and pulls hard!! Why are my numbers lower than everyone else? I was expecting around 100hp/100tq. Any advice/comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for a great website. Cant wait to meet/ride with some of you guys in Sturgis! wilberb
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The numbers do seem a bit on the low side.
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My 2005 SE Electra Glide was too benign. I installed the SE slip-on mufflers, air kit and downloaded the appropriate map. The dealership measured 88HP and 94lbs. of torque at the rear wheel. Not too bad for $995.00.
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Hello -
I'm looking for a bit of help if it's not too much trouble. I have a 2003 SERK and I have put a SE 2 into 1 Header on it and have a SE Air cleaner as well. I bouhgt the SE Race Tuner but the inventory of maps doesn't have an exact match. Therein lies the request. If anyone has a good map for my setup, could you please email it to me at mongo56@yahoo.com?
There was also an article I read about changing to program allow a user to tune more than 1 bike by changing one of the files, so if anyone has info on that I'd appreciate it as well.
Thanks,
Mongo
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My 2005 SE Electra Glide was too benign.
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Actually the stock numbers are always stated from the crank of the engine rather than the rear wheel. HD claims 100lbs. of torque, yet no stock 103" SE can turn that figure at the rear wheel on a calibrated Dyno. I wish you were right, but the Dyno doesn't lie. Most of the marketing numbers are grossly exaggerated. Most, including Honda, are stated from the crank for marketing purposes. I also own a Honda VTX with PCIII, Cobras and a Baron BAK. The stock claim is over 115lbs. of torque. After all the upgrades it turns 90HP at 108lbs. of torque, and weighs about 90lbs. less than my SE. Having riden them both I have no reason to doubt the Dyno. Nevertheless, I sure wish you were right :)
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Actually the stock numbers are always stated from the crank of the engine rather than the rear wheel.
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Actually the stock numbers are always stated from the crank of the engine rather than the rear wheel.
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My dyno sheet reposted at another member's request......
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However, the one to really be impressed with is my friend Gary's.......talk about a torque monster............
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JC
You knew this would be my request!
Your friend Gary,
What size motor?
What mods?
ETC?
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JC
You knew this would be my request!
Your friend Gary,
What size motor?
What mods?
ETC?
He's not posted much lately and I haven't been down to see him.
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but my check book would[/bgcolor] [bgcolor=Yellow]have major compression failure.[/bgcolor]
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, JCZ,
-
O.K. let's just say that the few pennies I may have are tied up in a few shacks that I own, in hopes of making a nickel off em.
And since we're layinin it out there and bein real, let's get real.
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, JCZ,
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Shovel
You know the drill!
[smiley=worthless.gif]
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Here's my printou of the Freedom package I had done today. See this thread for the Ride Report:http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=cvo_ride;action=display;num=1116109423
Reposted...
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The numbers do seem a bit on the low side.
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Re-post as requested.
Rinehart True Duals with 2.25" baffle, SE Air Cleaner, Race Tuner
elvis
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A friend of mine has the same set up,his numbers are right on with your's.
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TwoLane, What pipes are you running?
The pipes are the Vance & Hines duals (I think they market them under the name "Dresser Duals" or something close to that) and the mufflers are the White Brothers "E Series" slip ons.
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Can someone tell me what one should expect with a CVO 103 that is Dyno tuned with the SE air cleaner, Race Tuner and V&H Oval slipons? Or better yet post the actual results. Many thanks!!
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Can someone tell me what one should expect with a CVO 103 that is Dyno tuned with the SE air cleaner, Race Tuner and V&H Oval slipons? Or better yet post the actual results. Many thanks!!
All Pork, welcome to the site! [smiley=beerchug.gif] Can't answer your question with exactness, but close. I have an 04 SEEG (Screamin Eagle Electra Glide) with SE High Flow Air Cleaner, SE Race Tuner and the Vance & Hines Pro Pipe (2 into 1 exhaust) and had it dyno-tuned at Harley Davidson of Sacramento (see my dyno sheet in the dyno thread at about page 3). I turned 100 HP and 104 ft. lb. of torque. They seem to be pretty consistant there at Sac Harley.
By the way, the invitation at this link would be for you, too..................
http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=event_other;action=display;num=1119150752
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JCZ,
Thanks for your reply and August invite. I'm scheduled to get my SERK dyno'd at RC Cycles in Hayward this Saturday. Bob Lobenberger (sp) will be doing the tuning. Not expecting to do nearly as well as those folks with the Pro Pipe but hope to be at least in the high 80's/low 90's HP wise.
Will let you know if I can make the ride in August.... thanks again.
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And JCZ, I wish you were closer to me, cause I'd sure like to hear what you'd say about the ride. It is so hard when no one you know has a bike that performs like this. I think Mr. We will be pushing to get his tuned soon. Now I did loose the use of the race tuner, as John uses the Power Commander. Partly why it cost so much, but this guy really knows what he is doing. And the fact that he has a big enough heart to take me and my lowly bike in with the likes of the bikes he works on, I am very, very happy. [smiley=laugh.gif]
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I had a little misfortune which made me go out and get some good fortune.
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Now that's what I was talking about way back and I recommended somebody that "knows" how to dyno tune. Those are almost exact numbers to mine (100 HP and 104 TQ).
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It's great to read that you're having so much new and better fun with the bike now Candy. I'm sure everyone is glad to read that you're finally scoring some quality help and that the bike is finally feeling like it should for you. It's just great news to see. Have fun at the VA rally !
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Great report on your bike Mrs. We.
And how long will Mr. We let yours be faster?
.
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Does anybody know of a competent tuner I can connect with within a days ride of western New york. As always, thanks for helping me to spend my money. And remember, be careful out there.
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Try Dr. Dyno, he's one of the best. Based out of Conn. but travels around to different shows and events......
I think his website is :
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Not sure where he sets up in Daytona........I thought he stood out at the Volusia County Fair Grounds......
In Myrtle he sets up down in Murrell's Inlet in a
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I had the fuel injection mapped at Carls speed shop in Daytona Beach. 100 hp 103 ft lbs of torque. HOOKER 2 INTO 1 EXHAUST, HIGH FLOW AIRFILTER POWER, COMMANDER RIDE IT LIKE YOU STOLD IT!!!!
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Hey folks,
Just returned from the
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Hey folks,
Just returned from the
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Hey, SHRADER............what else did you do when you changed cams?
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Hey folks,
Just returned from the
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Shrader, when John and Pam and the Rolling Thunder dyno are "home" they're only about a mile from my house.
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The only two things I didn't like about his bike were the front and rear brakes. When you got 140+ HP and TQ at your disposal you NOTICE the improvement in the '00 up brakes.
REGARDS
SHRADER
Shrader I'd like to say I had the cajones to really test the brakes on his bike. I ran it up pretty good but only when I knew I had plenty of room so just eased it back down. As long as John has had that bike and as much as he's tinkered and changed and played with it it would totally suck if someone else dinged it up for him.
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Shrader I'd like to say I had the cajones to really test the brakes on his bike.
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Preaching Bassani rather than the E-Series now? That's a big change for him. He's loved the E-Series for years. Wonder if the conversion is because the Bassani is really doing a lot better or because the E-Series just isn't available anymore? Interesting though. Next time he's home I'll have to swing by with appropriate chatting beverages on a day he's in a good mood and see what I can learn [smiley=drink.gif]
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Hey folks,..Just returned from the
Yeah we were so happy to run into Shrader and his gorgeous wife Susan at the rally. They were working way tooooo hard in vendor alley. Mr We and I put on 805 wonderful miles and enjoyed honing those twisties skills. While there, we heard a rumor that Otis the bike got dusted on the way home from the valley trip. What is up with that Otis, the rider? Wondering minds just gotta know. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Good to see you Shrader. Hope you guys had a good ride home. [smiley=laugh.gif]
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Yeah we were so happy to run into Shrader and his gorgeous wife Susan at the rally. They were working way tooooo hard in vendor alley. Mr We and I put on 805 wonderful miles and enjoyed honing those twisties skills. While there, we heard a rumor that Otis the bike got dusted on the way home from the valley trip. What is up with that Otis, the rider? Wondering minds just gotta know. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Good to see you Shrader. Hope you guys had a good ride home. [smiley=laugh.gif]
UT O
Otis the bike got DUSTED!
NO WAY!
Nobody's mentioned that.
Wonder Why?
Otis, tell me it's not so? [smiley=cry2.gif]
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I don't know what's going on.......1st there are reports of OTIS getting dusted and then I notice that there's a 2nd SHRADER listed under the members section (with no 'posts').......I'm wondering if there's some 'bogus SHRADER' putting out bad info this morning.........could be some sort of conspiricy. We need to alert OTIS, the 'rider' to watch out for some sort of 'bush-wacking'.....something fishy going on here this morning! Har! spyder [smiley=shocked2.gif]
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I don't know what's going on.......1st there are reports of OTIS getting dusted and then I notice that there's a 2nd SHRADER listed under the members section (with no 'posts').......I'm wondering if there's some 'bogus SHRADER' putting out bad info this morning.........could be some sort of conspiricy.
-
2003 FLHRSEI2 Dyno #s - stock motor with 10K miles
SE Air Cleaner with round cover
Stock Headers
V&H Oval Slipon mufflers
Red - Stage 1 FLHRSEI2 Flash
Blue - SE Race Tuner w/custom map
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I don't know what's going on.......1st there are reports of OTIS getting dusted and then I notice that there's a 2nd SHRADER listed under the members section (with no 'posts').......I'm wondering if there's some 'bogus SHRADER' putting out bad info this morning.........could be some sort of conspiricy. We need to alert OTIS, the 'rider' to watch out for some sort of 'bush-wacking'.....something fishy going on here this morning! Har! spyder [smiley=shocked2.gif]
Hubbard's on now!
Maybe he can clear up the mystery!
[smiley=cherry.gif]
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2003 FLHRSEI2 Dyno #s - stock motor with 10K miles
SE Air Cleaner with round cover
Stock Headers
V&H Oval Slipon mufflers
Red - Stage 1 FLHRSEI2 Flash
Blue - SE Race Tuner w/custom map
Thanks for posting your dyno sheet. It appears that the only before and after change was going from the flash to a SE Race Tuner, am I correct. If I'm right then this shows a significant gain by just changing to a Race Tuner........besides the fact that your bike should also run a little cooler. Definately worth the money.
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Thanks for posting your dyno sheet.
-
JCZ, you are correct that the Race Tuner install was the only change between the two runs on the graph. I agree that the SE Race Tuner has a lot of potential. Especially coupled with Dyno tuning (as opposed to seat of the pants) and when it's performed by an expert Dyno Tuner/Operator.
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HD-Dude,
Actually Bob Lobenburg(sp) performed the tuning. There's no question in my mind that Bob is a subject matter expert and tuner. In addition to my results being better than expected, the whole experience was very rewarding. I was able to watch the entire 1.5 hour tuning session, while receiving a step by step description of the process from Bob and able to witness the gains made as the map calibration proceeded along.
I've talked to Ron many times and there's no doubt in my mind that he's just as capable a performance technician as Bob.
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Where is RC Cycles?
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Where is RC Cycles?
Hopefully, in Illinois. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]
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Hopefully, in Illinois. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]
103, you need to go to someplace that Rolling Thunder Dyno is travelling.
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103, you need to go to someplace that Rolling Thunder Dyno is travelling.
-
Is he a RT or PC guy?
-
[bgcolor=Yellow]I believe the 'bogus SHRADER' is me. [/bgcolor]I mistakenly registered twice but have only used one identity. However I do like the way you think, a little conspiracy can be a good thing.
REGARDS
THE ONE AND ONLY SHRADER
BOGUS registered twice I will dust both of you.
OTIS
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John is a Power Commander guy Brian.
-
Most traveling tuners will prefer the PC over the RT simply because of the time factor. The PC is programmed while running the bike on the dyno. The RT on the other hand, can only be programmed with the bike not running. This fact makes it much more time consuming and you can't see the results of the changes you make in real time.
REGARDS
SHRADER
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Where is RC Cycles?
RC Cycles has two shops, One in Hayward, CA (that's where the magic happens) and one in Danville, CA. The Danville shop does minor repairs and service. By the way. they do not have a PC or race tuner preference. They say that they will use either and get good results....
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Nuts.
-
Hey folks,
Just returned from the
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Therefore, the true performance of the Engine can only be determined on the pavement.
-
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Well here's my dyno #'s.
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Well here's my dyno #'s.
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Well here's my dyno #'s.
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Thanks, Maverick & GRC I'll keep that in mind. Whne I have a chance I'll dyno it some where else and see what that tech has to say. Anyways as always, Let's Roll
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WEEEEEE!
My mods are done and the numbers are in! After installing the S&S 570 gear drive cams, HP tappets , adjustable push rods, Bassani true duel power curve pipes w/ Mega phones, Arlen Ness Big Sucker air cleaner and PCIII She Dyno'd in at 99.72 HP and 109.39 ft.LBs of torque!!! [smiley=dizzy2.gif] It is not quite the #'s I was looking for but the ride is WOW!!! [smiley=laugh.gif] I am going to upload the sheet but not sure what i'm doin! Absolutely LOVE [smiley=bigok.gif]the sound of the pipes. Can't wait to ride!!!
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Lets try this again! [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Good looking #'s! The torque #'s especially [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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High Flow Air Cleaner, Vance & Hines Pro Pipe and HD Race Tuner.
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I am confused...JC's dyno sheet shows more hp and 5 fp less torque (he did stage 1, racetuner and pro pipe) than HD Bling who did considerably more to the engine. Difference due to different dyno? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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I am confused...JC's dyno sheet shows more hp and 5 fp less torque (he did stage 1, racetuner and pro pipe) than HD Bling who did considerably more to the engine. Difference due to different dyno?
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I am confused...JC's dyno sheet shows more hp and 5 fp less torque (he did stage 1, racetuner and pro pipe) than HD Bling who did considerably more to the engine. Difference due to different dyno?
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I'm STILL suckin' hind tit... I got my '05 dyno tuned this weekend at Paradise in Portland, and I turned out 87.9 hp and 95 ft/lbs of TQ. AND, to top it all off, now I get a little tiny predetonation rattle for just the briefest of seconds when I hit the throttle.... Mileage didn't go up much at all... This is with SEII mufflers, BIg SUcker AC, Stage 1 ecm, and the PCIIIUSB I had put on with the dynotune.... AF stays rock solid around 13.2/13.3 all the way.
What's up with that!? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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This just in, let me add some real confusion for everyone (mostly myself). The local HD dealer recently had a brand new Dyno 250i installed and the guy mainly running the machine is a friend and asked to use my bike for an in house training session (they were trying bikes of many displacements) here is the results. baseline was 89 hp and 92 fpt to my surprise. end result is 94 even and a noticable performance difference and I believe these numbers to be more accurate than my original dyno done by simons performance. [smiley=oops.gif]
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I got a dyno run on the Zippers stuff. Very dissappointing 95/96 . See my post and attached dyno here.
http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=CVO_TC;action=display;num=1118800724;start=0
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I got a dyno run on the Zippers stuff.
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Thanks, I understand what the problem is but without base map software with the RPM AF grid to tune the thing, I think I may be screwed. Sure wish I lived near them to get the thing working as the concept still makes a lot of sense to me but without software to get it dialed it is useless. Their fine tuning software may work well for a near miss but this looks like ships passing in the night and I don't want to piss away dyno time trying to find out. I am convinced that the SE 103 they ran the thing on was an 04 and there are significant enough diffs in the 05 heads to cause my problem. No other rational explanation I can think of as they checked that i have the correct base map and these are the results. I PMed DC about it but have not heard back. He seems to have a connection there and may be able to lead them to a solution. I am equally concerned that the timing curve may be off and without any real pinging problems, it may be fairly far off the optimal power curve. I pulled the rear plug and, surprise, it needed a little chimney sweeping. I will keep posting the progress and hopefully my chicken will be the test bed for getting the thing right. [smiley=nixweiss.gif] JP
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Pappy.....I agree, the A/F is way off. If you've got a good RT tuner, you may want to try using the Zippers hardware, stock ECM and tune with the Race Tuner. Seems there's a hole in the Zipper's software somewhere. Can't post my dyno sheet since my scanner went South, but the numbers when my bike was stock except for highflow air cleaner and Rineharts was 96.65 HP and 101.33 TQ tuned with a RT and the "best" dyno tuner I've ever used. Your bike should be pulling like crazy at 3500.
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Oh yeah, i forgot the timing line on the plugs indicated the timing is not advanced enough either. I need to choose between a race tuner or a power commander if I make a change. Any thoughts? [smiley=nixweiss.gif] Be safe JP
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Oh yeah, i forgot the timing line on the plugs indicated the timing is not advanced enough either.
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Actually, I think Zippers is trying to work with me inside their box.
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Pappy I have dealt with Zippers for over 15 years. I have had nothing but a good working realationship working with them. The Thunder max ECM is the most advanced ECM for your Harley at this time. This set up will out perform the H/D ECM with either a R/T or a P/C. I know how mine runs and I know how yours should run. I still think the heat and humids down there are part of the problem the changing of the heads will also cause a problem if the flow numbers changed. Be patient they will get it right. I put myself out on a limb talking about the set/up and how good ir performs. I know how mine runs. I am going to make it a point to try to get some dyno time with mine next week so I can see numbers before the tear down.
After talking to the Zippers crew down at Myrtle I know how committed they are with Harley fuel injection. They know this is where the future is going and they know they got in on the ground floor. I can tell you this unit is on the cutting edge as far as fuel injection technology goes. I can tell you I was a little shy at first ( I have had carbs all my life) I still don't like the fact everytime you make a change you need a tuner. The bike ran good with a S/E air cleaner,Thunder header and a power commander. When I made the changes I could not believe the difference at 3500 it really cut loose and ran great all the way to 6150 RPM. I am convinced this was a great move for me as it should be for everyone who makes this purchase.
Be patient they will get it right. I have known these guys for toooooo long. I know that they have a schedule with thier dyno and it runs all day. They will get it right for you.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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I didn't know there was a head change, 05 still lists the heads with an 03 part #??
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I didn't know there was a head change,
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OK I will say it!
I'm with TwoLane on this one
AAAAARGHHHHHH I feel better!
Unless I'm told upfront I'm going to be the test case I expect parts to work to full potential when they are installed.
The heat and humidity always play a part in the tuning but that issue is a pimple on a dimple on a gnats a$$ compared to what the real problem is.
YOU NEED A TUNER (a good dyno man)
Does Zippers recommend someone in your part of the country that can tune this ECM?
Or are you the test case?
Did you get a sweet deal to be the test case?
Your line that "maybe I need to convince them to get a new map rather than fix the one I got" is the key to your problem.
Convince them HELL, they should be wanting and eager to help you solve this problem.
And Fireman as you said "they know where the future is going",, but if they can't solve the problems of the present then what good is having "the most advanced ECM unit at this time"?
Here's the key
IMHO
Zippers equipment is very very fine equipment
But take Hubbards bike.
Anyone could have built Hubbards motor using the Zippers parts,
But Hubbard chose a master engine builder. He chose one of the best.
You take the finest equipment and the finest motor builder and the very best tuner, and what do you get ------>Maudie, a 120" rocket that flys and lives with Hubbard as pilot.
Get my drift Pappy
Your 1/2 way there, find someone as quality as the parts you have purchased to tune it and you will be happy!
[smiley=bigok.gif]
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, hd2003,
Couldn't have said it better myself, Kid! [smiley=thumbsup.gif] Here! Here! [smiley=beerchug.gif] That's H20 in mine, JCZ! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD
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Lots-o-drama here. Previous posts from Pappy stated that he was extreemly happy with the results of his upgrades - then suddenly he wasn't happy anymore after a dyno test. Man - how can something that feels so good suddenly be so bad?
I don't think Pappy signed up to be a lab rat until he hit the dyno. As stated in a recent post, it's quite possible that when this test run was performed, the bike in question was not tested at full operating temp. Sophisticated EFI management systems have many correction factors built in to calibrate fuel based on engine temp. You can perform 5 different test runs at 5 different engine temps and you will see 5 differents readings, each one higher as temperatures increase toward full operating temp. Fuel requirements change with engine temp - it's that simple.
As far as tuning goes - the Zipper's ECM includes a very precise map, tuned to a specific application. It also includes software which will allow additional fine tuning to accomodate basic changes to the original application, but you are not limited there. Additional maps are available for various combinations and engine displacements. A competent tuner will do back flips once he becomes familiar with this software - it can be used on unlimited applications once you learn how to use it. This is the same ECM that comes in all of Zippers EFI Muscle kits - up to 120CI. The Zipper guys are serious about what they do and have lots of horse power behind them when it comes to EFI. If you are having a problem I'm sure that they want to know.
Most of the problems of the present are not really problems at all, just a lack of understanding mixed with too much chat on the internet.
I think I'll go ride now.
The Chop
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I am not sure but it seems odd to me that all the posts by the Chop, coincidentally located in Maryland (the home of Zippers) are related to praising the Zippers stuff and he/she/it seems to know alot more about this problem than I have posted. Any chance you are affiliated with Zippers? If so, it seems that you should identify yourself accordingly and spend your time making me happy with your product and let me do the talking about how good it is.
I am not sure that I agree the drama is out of place here as my riding satisfaction is tainted seriously by the dyno results that were done.
Inspection of the plugs also indicates somewhat rich mixture and somewhat retarded timing so the dyno is not alone in the pot of confusion.
I only want to get the thing going as intended and have tried my best to be patient with Zippers waiting for answers. Despite repeated requests over the last weekand a half, I have yet to get the name of a tuner in my area that is familiar with the ECM software who can make it sing and remain more than willing to take the bike to such a person if they exist. To expect me to develop such expertise in South Florida on my nickel seems to be unreasonable, especially with access only to the limited end user software rather than the full tuning software they claim to have but are unwilling to allow me to use.
Maybe the Chop is familiar enough with these guys to help find a Zippers qualified tuner in South Florida and get this thing resolved. If no such animal exists, I have offered to help find a qualified tuner to learn the Zippers system and use my bike as the lab rat for this purpose.
Since no such tuner has been identified, I have also agreed to take the bike back to a dyno and rerun the tests once they have confirmed this is their best shot at a base map for the thing and give me detailed instructions how to get the dyno runs they need to understand the results fully and remove any further doubts about the correct conditions for the test. If these results are not excellent with respect to the power and AF curves, I expect to either have it dyno tuned somewhere near here soon at their cost or send the thing back and take another route to achieve my performance objectives.
If the moderators want me to stop posting on this subject, I will gladly honor their request. JP [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Pappy
Keep on posting!
We all want your motor RIGHT!
I'm no moderator [smiley=cry2.gif].
(but on a side topic, I did apply for the moderator job and when I listed Hubbard, DJW, BLM777,Spyder and Otis as references they threw out my application. Although I did list my redemming qualities as being maladjusted, antisocial and darn mean. On that part they said I would fit right in!)
You have paid your money and deserve some satisfaction. Stay on them. Maybe someone can tell you who to talk to about this problem instead of just singing mindless praises of how great they are.
Again, stay on their a$$.
Where is Fireman when we need him?
[smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Pappy2,
In previous post's you mentioned you were happy with the performance mods you did. Then the initial dyno runs presented some number's that were viewed as unfavorable, my question is the ride still as good as when the mods were made?
If yes, I'd have it retested on a different dyno. Some dyno's use 875 pound wheels others can be 1180 pounds, so same bike will turn higher number's on the lighter wheel. The a/f number's you posted also needs tweaking if
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Pappy,
I'm not much on internet chat, however I do peek in from time to time to see what the latest buzz is about. After being involved in the motorcycle industry for the past 18 years, I am very familiar with Zipper's and the engine management components that you are using. I have been involved in similar situations and have always been able to get support when needed, from Zipper's, when it comes to their products- therefore, I was quite surprized to read numberous posts about an unwillingness to give support or to provide a solution to such a questionable issue. Sorry if I the drama thing struck a nerve, my post was in response to your many responses from other subscribers who were eager to shed negative light.
It's always best to contact a manufacturer or service provider directly if you are having a discrepency with a product or service.
If the product was purchased direct from the manufacturer, a reputable manufacturer would first try to remediate the issue at hand direct with the end user either by exchanging the component in question or providing a revision to the application. Now that many Harley- Davidsons are calibrated by electronics this type of transaction can often be handled easily via email. If that is not an option, they should be able to quickly connect you with a dealer in your area who can handle the issue at hand. Seems like this should be easy to address with minor adjustments to your map through the software that comes with the ECM. Another option would be to send your ECM back to them to have a map revision if your not set up to receive and load it electronically yourself.
To date, have you not yet received a reply from Zipper's in regard to your dyno results or your concerns? I'm sure that your satisfaction is a priority to those folks. They have been around a long time - that doesn't happen by blowing people off.
As far as praise goes, I can only speak from my own experience. After working in a dealership for many years, I praise H-D for making fine motorcycles, even though many customers feel that the Motor Co. and the dealer network sometimes fall short of some expectations. That's where the aftermarket steps in - and when something works and works well - it's good to pass it on.
Sorry to hear your having trouble. Hope they get you tightened up soon. Keep us posted.
The Chop
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I'm no moderator [smiley=cry2.gif].
(but on a side topic, I did apply for the moderator job and when I listed Hubbard, DJW, BLM777,Spyder and Otis as references they threw out my application.
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Pappy
Keep on posting!
We all want your motor RIGHT!
I'm no moderator [smiley=cry2.gif].
(but on a side topic, I did apply for the moderator job and when I listed Hubbard, DJW, BLM777,Spyder and Otis as references they threw out my application. Although I did list my redemming qualities as being maladjusted, antisocial and darn mean. On that part they said I would fit right in!)
You have paid your money and deserve some satisfaction. Stay on them. Maybe someone can tell you who to talk to about this problem instead of just singing mindless praises of how great they are.
Again, stay on their a$$.
Where is Fireman when we need him?
[smiley=nixweiss.gif]
HERE I IS CHIP!!!!!! I did make a call just to see if and what the problem is or was. I did not get to talk to the person I needed to but did leave a voice mail(they are at lunch) I know I will get a return call.
One person I did talk to who had no knowledge of Pappy's problem but he had a few insights for me. Problem 1 is (and I don't know if this is or was a problem) if the bikes head temp is not at 235 degrees the ecm will still try to warm the engine to operating temps (rich condition) Problem 2 would be the air temp(ambient) and humidity and this should be handeled by a simple tuning using the Zippers program sent with the ECM.
These scenarios seem very reasonable to me and should be simple to work with!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Thank you Mr. DAWG
We await your response!
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Thank you Mr. DAWG
We await your response!
Well I did in fact talk to the people at Zippers today. I had a very good conversation with them on what may or may not be the problem. First off they have tried to address the problem. They have been in contact with pappy on this matter. The revised map is exactally the one I have and I know it works. They (Zippers) could not get any exact info on how the dyno was done. The Thunder Max ECM works different than the stcok ECM. The bikes head sensor need to be at 235 degrees and the oil in the motor should be warm. If the head sensor is not at 235 the the ecm will stay in the "cold mode" and will burn rich and you will see exactally what you saw on Pappy's dyno sheet. The program that came with the ECM if hooked up when the dyno is being done will give you the head temperature. A copy of the tuning instructions was also forwarded with the new map. This should help anyone who dyno's the bike and give them all the info they need. Pappy you said there were a few people that were interested in the Zippers ECM. I can believe that anyone that knows Zippers knows Zippers knows HORSEPOWER. If you don't believe that ask Hubbard! Yes the Thunder Max ECM is something new to a lot of people including me. I do know for a fact it works. I really can't wait till I get inside my motor and get to see just how good this setup is. As I told you it is a great platform to build on.
When you look at Pappy's dyno sheet and see the rich condition it does leave me to believe the bike was not fully warmed up. If the bike is warm I would think he would see some good numbers. The horsepower numbers are not that far off IMHO. At plus or minus 10% he should be in the century mark for horsepower. The tq numbers are lacking IMHO at plus 10% they may still be a tad bit low. This is why the bike needs to warm and the ECM working like it should.
I know how my bike runs and I LOVE IT. When pappy first installed the Zippers package he was quite happy also. Pappy I know when you saw the numbers you were quite disastified as I would have been. Take the bike to someone who will dyno the bike the way it needs to be dynoed. Your numbers might not be as high as you would like them to be, but if you wait till the fall or even winter(down there) when the air is cooler and the humidity is lower you will see the numbers you are looking for.
I hope this will help Pappy out in his quest for some good and reliable horsepower. I did not get involved to bash anyone but to help Pappy out. Pappy I hope this helps resolves the problem and you see some good numbers, if you need anything please call me or PM me.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Thanks Mr. Dog!!!!!
Get a good dyno man?,?,?
Now where have I heard that before!
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OK latest email is as follows:
To Zippers:
To: 'Dan'
Subject: RE: RE: adjusted map
Is there any chance that you have been able to find a Zippers qualified tuner anywhere in South Florida to go ahead and dyno tune my bike to make sure all is correct and get the best performance out of the upgrade package that I bought?
I am sure that getting this done would help me feel that all is correct and then I can return to being a very satisfied customer. Please help me out and find me a place to get this done and over with. Thanks JP
Zippers reply
John,
I think you are missing the point. Zipper's generates complete, high resoloution maps that do not require tuning and we include that in the module you recieved. This is done to eliminate costly dyno time, adding even more value to your package. If the drivability of the bike is acceptable, running great as you said, the dyno is simply a product to generate a piece of paper to confirm your riding experience with numbers. As I stated in the previous mail to you, there are a variety of reasons those numbers you got were low.
The engineered map was thoroughly made which took over a week to generate, the map has 1900 points of adjustment at all operating temperatures. Your engine is a direct match that map. I hate to see you spend even more money to confirm what you already know but if a dyno graph is what's needed to satisfy you, I will do my best to find a tuner that will follow our instructions as outlined and provide you with a graph.
Your dyno data you provided was flawed, the sample temperature was incorrect, the curves on each page are in conflict of each other yet you feel this is the basis of your problem. In addition you stated how good the engine runs until you put it on the dyno.
Again due to the high resolution, if you try to collect power numbers on the dyno with the ThunderMax system below normal operating temperature, your power and A/F ratios will be skewed.
If you want to pay someone a lot of your money to look at this work, that is your prerogative. I have no doubt that dyno testing the bike under the proper conditions will provide you with the results that you expected. I will make some calls to people I know who are competent yet be advised they have not been through training in our facility yet.
Dan
Thanks much to all for your help and I will decide if I am going to use his guy to run more dynos and post them to let you know what happens. The local Harley dealer may run one for free to compensate for my three trips to the dealer to get the chrome bits on the stereo controls to work right. For now, I think I will just enjoy riding the thing and let someone else play lab rat. It does run a ton better than it did stock and the latest richer map seems to improve the thing which clearly does not correlate with the first dyno runs. It also runs nice and cool as I originally wanted so if the power is a little off, I may wait until they have someone trained in my area to screw around with it. I can always take the Rocket or the Duc out for a blast to fill my skin stretching needs for now. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]JP
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Pappy after I talked to them today that is exactally what they said. I think if the bike is warmed up you will see a difference.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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My S&S 124"
Thought I would post it here to make it easier to find.
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Unbalanced
Is that the 124 that's has the leaking or sealing problems that is not in a bike at this time?
Wasn't it in a 03 Ultra that has been sold?
[smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
I guess I could find the 177H/P dyno sheet from the Hayabusa I sold in 04 and post it.
No wait, this is a Harley site,
Guess I need to get the 136H/P dyno sheet from the 10.5 @132 U class AHDRA #1 champion I had 10 years ago and post it.
Nope!
If it's not in the garage then it's "has been" or "wanna be" B/S to me.
Yes, Yes, I know there WFP (knew you were gonna ask) what about the scooters?
I have a little over a hundred miles on them, so Saturday they get the high performance treatment. I'm hoping on the dyno to show at least 3.5 to 4 H/P from them.
WHOOHOO, look out Florida! They are going to Biketoberfest!
[smiley=laugh.gif]
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Yes, Yes,
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HEY Bill
A milk crate would be good!
Trying to find one for ours.
We were riding yesterday afternoon then came the blue lights. They pulled over Nancy.
Started to make a run for it. But hell on a scooter "That don't work".
I turned around and went back. The officer was fussing at her for no helmet.
Told us even though no tag, we still had to wear them. Said it was illegal to ride without them. Then being the nice guy he was he let us ride the scoots back home and get them!
I was glad he let us go. Would hate to marry a lady with a prison record!
[smiley=laugh.gif]
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That is too funny...why did you get away initially and not Nancy?
The Rebel and the Shadow have up to date registrations but I never had them inspected up here...I am waiting for the blue lights as I ride with the woman who is buying the Shadow...I am letting her practice a little more on the Rebel.
There is quite a bit of rust on the rebel but you know, it will now be my winter project...maybe I will tear it down completely.
/Bill
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Unbalanced, that's pretty impressive numbers on that dyno sheet, for a street Harley.
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HD2003,
The hacker blew most of the site away, so I posted it where it should have gone since You like to REFERENCE it.
Its being resealed at West End Cycle for any reference you would like to make of it.
Its not a secret its not Hallowed and it was originally requested to be posted by Hubbard . Since he wanted to see it for himself.
I am actively looking for another chassis for it. All the other parts are in the garage waiting. I should have the motor back Wednesday or Thursday this week.
Once I have it back in a frame then it makes a difference? ... not really its just another toy to enjoy. At the time I wanted a Red SEEG and it was a trade off because I enjoyed the first one I had so much. [smiley=beerchug.gif]
lets see take motor out / buy another SEEG and redo it in a few months.... Wish I had a spare 30k it would have never been touched.
Hallowed no.... Maybe by bike week you will be down and get to see it running.
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SEEG 04 Pumpkin
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05 Cherry SEEG
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Had been asked to repost my dyno sheet for the orange bike.
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Mr. Magoo,
Any chance your dyno guy will reprint that for you in SAE vs. STD?
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2005 SEEG, stock w/1100 miles, Stage One air cleaner, Power Commander, and Thunder Headers w/Falsie
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Looks like the classic thunderheader torque dip that everyone refers to. Nice HP though.
Is that dip something you feel with the butt dyno, or just on paper?
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I don't feel it at all, but I did recently get this bike after riding a stock 88. All I know is that if I hit the throttle hard at 5-10 mph, the front wheel comes about 2-3 inches of the ground in both first and second...
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I don't feel it at all, but I did recently get this bike after riding a stock 88.
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Sure a lot more fun than my Heritage... [smiley=7.gif]
It seems that quality of the chrome on my Thunderheaders is less than stellar. The heat shields are fine so you can't see the problem, but the chrome is popping off of the pipe. They are going to replace it, then Bruce is going to play with the download a bit and redyno. I'll let you know the results
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This was a free run on a new dyno installed yesterday.
103
stock cams
stock pipes
Se Breather
10:1 pistons 185 psi cranking pressure
.030 cometic gaskets
I dont know why the rpm didn`t print but it starts about 2500rpm and goes to 5500rpm
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WOW ... check out this dyno run on the SEEG!
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, SE06,
Pretty impressive numbers! Can't wait to see what it'll do on the pavement! Guess we'll be going to Charleston WFO again, huh? [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] I'll arrive in Myrtle late Wednesday nite, the 28th. See ya'll on Thursday! [smiley=bigok.gif] Later--HUBBARD
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Guess we'll be going to Charleston WFO again, huh? [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, SE06,
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Mr. Magoo,
Any chance your dyno guy will reprint that for you in SAE vs. STD?
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Davidb,
See if this helps I got the information from Daytona sport bikers forums.
The power output of an internal combustion engine is significantly influenced by barometric pressure, ambient air temperature, and air humidity.
The lower ambient barometric pressure reduces the density of the air, thus reduces the amount of oxygen filling the cylinder for each cycle, resulting in lower power output. Conversely, higher barometric pressure increases power.
The lower ambient air temperature results in increased density of the air, thus increases the amount of oxygen filling the cylinder for each cycle, resulting in higher power output. Conversely, higher air temperature reduces power output.
Lower air humidity (= less water vapor) leaves more room for oxygen per cubic foot of air, thus increases the amount of oxygen filling the cylinder for each cycle, resulting in higher power output. Conversely, higher air humidity reduces power output.
Several Standards organizations have determined methods for estimating engine power under reference conditions. The best known organizations are:
ISO (International Standards Organization), worldwide
SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers), USA
ECE (European Community), Europe
JIS (Japanese Institute for Standardization), Japan
DIN (Deutsche Industrie Norm), Germany
There are power correction standards for gasoline and Diesel engines, for applications in road vehicles, stationary engines, or marine engines, etc. For a motorcycle dynamometer, relevant standards are those generally intended for gasoline engines in road vehicles and those specific to motorcycles.
SAE -- The SAE standard applied is a modified version of the SAE J1349 standard of June 1990. Power is corrected to reference conditions of 29.23 InHg (99 kPa) of dry air and 77 F (25
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The "SAE corrected" power numbers indicated by the dynos are more accurate estimates of engine power output under reference conditions and use either a calculated ME correction or use a fixed ME of 85%.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Unbalanced
Guess that explains why some retailers us STD numbers intstead of SAE numbers
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So if the shop gives you a SAE number ...immediatly convert it to STD!
So you can say my number is bigger than your number...
Kinda like...my dad can beat up your dad...
No matter how old...boys will be boys!
PS. God...I hope I get good numbers when I finally get mine dynoed.
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2005 SEEG,S/E AIR,PC111,FREEDOM PIPES
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I'm going to bet that you got the pinging to stop.....didn't you? I can see in your A/F numbers, why it was pinging. Good numbers Van!
Sorry you had to cut out so soon. We had a really good ride.....was even a mellow ride (except for a couple little hole shots that I did in Virginia City).....wish you could have hung for the whole thing.
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Just an update from my dyno #'s.
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Here's the 2nd after Freedom worked it.
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the namefits. we were trying to get the group on the road in reno and gabe says LETS ROLL! im with him - forget the parking lot and LETS ROLL!
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Posting this sheet fopr Jeffj. He has the Freedom setup on his 06 SE Ultra [smiley=cherry.gif]
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Gabe;
I bet it feels like a new bike!! Brad REALLY knows how to tune doesn't he? [smiley=cherry.gif]
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Gabe;
I bet it feels like a new bike!! Brad REALLY knows how to tune doesn't he? [smiley=cherry.gif]
Jim, he really does. I haven't been able to get it going really good since I got back, but on the way back she rode really nice. Let's Roll
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Had my 04 SEEG dynoed in Myrtle a few days ago. Stock 103 with a Zippers 50 mm throttle body, Thunder Max ECM and a Thunder header low overcast 80 degrees ambient and 80% plus humidity. 103.3 h/p and 104.5 tq. HD 2003 is going to post sheet in a day or 2.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Thread name is dyno #'s
Was already here but was requested to post again~ [smiley=laugh.gif]
Uh.....Nancy.......it's the "Dyno Numbers" in the "SEEG Electra Glide Forum". There is also a dyno thread started for 88" motors elsewhere on this site.
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Uh.....Nancy.......it's the "Dyno Numbers" in the "SEEG Electra Glide Forum".
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A repost of DCFireman's dyno sheet. Dawg, I resized it to 800x600 so it'll be viewable and emailed you a copy after it'd been resized. Nice sheet [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Thanks for resizing that Don!
As I said in the original post that showed DAWG's dyno sheet, those are good #s.
Chip and I were having dinner at Myrtle Beach with Hubbard and DAWG dropped by and asked Chip to post his dyno sheet.
Since he can't, I did.
Was good to see you again Mr. DAWG and you should have rode with Chip and I and Hubbard and Otis and the others.
Chip says the dyno sheet is good but we all put the bikes in the wind Saturday.
We all got to see Hubbard wobble, but he never let off.
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Dawg, I resized it to 800x600 so it'll be viewable . . . .
Why's it still showing up 1080 x 796 to me? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Thanks for resizing that Don!
No problem Nancy. We don't catch them all (that'd take forever) but we try to catch as many as is convenient and go to 800x600 with them. Also email a resized copy to the owner when that get's done. Glad to see you all had a good time this past weekend
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Why's it still showing up 1080 x 796 to me? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Do a screen refresh Brian. The original is still in your cache.
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Do a screen refresh Brian.
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Thanks for resizing that Don!
As I said in the original post that showed DAWG's dyno sheet, those are good #s.
Chip and I were having [bgcolor=Yellow]dinner[/bgcolor] at Myrtle Beach with Hubbard and DAWG dropped by and asked Chip to post his dyno sheet.
Since he can't, I did.
Was good to see you again Mr. DAWG and you should have rode with Chip and I and Hubbard and Otis and the others.
Chip says the dyno sheet is good but we all put the bikes in the wind Saturday.
[bgcolor=Yellow]We all got to see Hubbard wobble, but he never let off[/bgcolor].
Yeah, 'er 'uh, SE06,
Since Chip [smiley=builder2.gif] won't ever let me pay for anything, [smiley=nixweiss.gif] I just felt like I should do something for all that Filet he bought! [smiley=yes.gif] What better return than seeing my "Led Sled", WFO, almost going into tank slapper mode, [smiley=angel.gif] could I do for all that food [smiley=smilie_koch1.gif] he has bought me? BTW, is that SEEG of his back from Reno? Later--HUBBARD
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, SE06,
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Since Chip [smiley=builder2.gif] won't ever let me pay for anything, ...
Mr Hubbard, I have found that Chip takes care of the ones that take care of him!
BTW, is that SEEG of his back from Reno?
The SEEG is not back yet but should be here by next Tuesday or Wednesday ... it WILL be here for the AHDRA event in Rockingham!!
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Nancy thanks for posting it was great to see yous guys again!!!!!
Mr DAWG
No problem on the posting and it was our pleasure to see you for a few minutes over dinner. Next rally you need to be sure you ride with us for at least one day.
(Plus ... Chip may buy dinner again!!! [smiley=wink3.gif])
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It isn't apples to apples if Freedom Cycle only uses "STD (standard)" measurement on the dyno sheets, when most other dyno sheets are "SAE" corrected. The "STD" will have higher numbers then "SAE" corrected. I think we have asked for "SAE" corrected sheets from Freedom dynoed bikes in the past without success. ::)
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It isn't apples to apples if Freedom Cycle only uses "STD (standard)" measurement on the dyno sheets, when most other dyno sheets are "SAE" corrected. The "STD" will have higher numbers then "SAE" corrected. I think we have asked for "SAE" corrected sheets from Freedom dynoed bikes in the past without success. ::)
I have asked Brad about this and he stated that at the most there may be a 1 or 2 hp and or tq difference in the #'s. As many intelligent people on this site have pointed
out these numbers are very subjective anyway. The only way to get a true apples to apples run is to do the bikes on the same machine at the same time under the same circumstances. [smiley=cherry.gif]
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I have asked Brad about this and he stated that at the most there may be a 1 or 2 hp and or tq difference in the #'s. As many intelligent people on this site have pointed
out these numbers are very subjective anyway. The only way to get a true apples to apples run is to do the bikes on the same machine at the same time under the same circumstances. [smiley=cherry.gif]
Ahhh phuck it.......I'll just meet you at the Sacramento Raceway tomorrow and we'll see what they do in the 1/4 mile. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, JCZ,
You just polished it up a bit with a "doesn't", where my Hillbilly a$$ said "don't." You can quote me anytime, Brother! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] Run 'em WFO! ;D It don't hurt 'em in high gear! Later--HUBBARD
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05 SEEG, White bros E series 2into1, Race Tuner, SE/AC.
Seems a little low from what i read hear. Was dyno tuned. Don't know much about White bros pipe.
(http://)
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05 SEEG, White bros E series 2into1, Race Tuner, SE/AC.
Seems a little low from what i read hear. Was dyno tuned. Don't know much about White bros pipe.
Hmmm. Interesting that 2lane is pulling down better numbers with V&H true duals and E-series slip-ons. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Hmmm.
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I am sure it is all about the tuner, but I was looking at it more from the true dual vs. 2-into-1 aspect. Both bikes have E-series components, but your duals are getting better numbers. Would be fun to be able to have your PC guru tune sqrrl24's bike and then compare.
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I am sure it is all about the tuner, but I was looking at it more from the true dual vs. 2-into-1 aspect.
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Twolane Where is your dyno sheet. Looked for it could not find it.
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Twolane Where is your dyno sheet. Looked for it could not find it.
WTF, you mean you couldn't find it on one of these 31 pages, LOL!
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Well, don't know why that won't take you right to it (still figuring out this new version of the software :-/), but it is on that page, about half way down, reply #293.
Edit: Link above is fixed (Ha! Take that, software! [smiley=smash.gif] [smiley=whip.gif] [smiley=sauer021.gif])
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Thanks, 103 I got it. I went through all 30 pages by the time I got there must have spaced it. [smiley=confused5.gif] That's alot of reading. Big differences in numbers. Any body Know A tuner Around Wabash IN.
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Got my 06 RG that has the 103" motor, stage 1, race tuner and fullsac mufflers dyno tuned.
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Got my 06 RG that has the 103" motor, stage 1, race tuner and fullsac mufflers dyno tuned.
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saturday at Stone MOuntain Harley Davidson
here is the results of my Yellow CVO
1st run 1/4 mile 9.319 at 151.700 mph at 125.1 horsepower
2nd run - 9.159 at 152.500 mph at 127.2 horsepower
3rd run - 9.049 at 153.300 mph at 129.6 horsepower
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What a great experience I had at the dyno shop. They let me stand right there and explained each step to me.
the numbers aren't bad either. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]
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Nice numbers Fred......especially the torque! Your A/F ratio looks right on, too. Apparently those guys have some experience with the Race Tuner. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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What a great experience I had at the dyno shop. They let me stand right there and explained each step to me.
the numbers aren't bad either. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]
________________________________________________________________
Kingsalmon,
What is the complete package you are now running?
From your dyno sheet looks like a Pro-Pipe,SE Breather Kit, 211 cams(?) and JC mentioned a Race Tuner.
Very good number's.... [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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________________________________________________________________
Kingsalmon,
What is the complete package you are now running?
From your dyno sheet looks like a Pro-Pipe,SE Breather Kit, 211 cams(?) and JC mentioned a Race Tuner.
Very good number's.... [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
That's exactly what he's running........you named it all. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] Nice numbers considering there's no head work nor compression bumped.
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I was really impressed with the work this guy did, as you know you have to keep turning the bike off and downloading the next map when you have a race tuner. He did that 10 times before he got it just right. Total time was 2 hours.
What I don't know about my setup is this.
Fremont HD Dyno Tuned my bike with RT, SE Aircleaner, V&H Oval slipons and came up with 100 HP and 104 Torque.
I added the V&H ProPipe and 211 cams and got these numbers.
Not sure if I got a good reading from Fremont HD
Not sure what gave me the most benifit, Pipes or Cams
All I know is, [smiley=jalapeno.gif] [smiley=banana.gif] ;D [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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I was really impressed with the work this guy did, as you know you have to keep turning the bike off and downloading the next map when you have a race tuner. He did that 10 times before he got it just right. Total time was 2 hours.
What I don't know about my setup is this.
Fremont HD Dyno Tuned my bike with RT, SE Aircleaner, V&H Oval slipons and came up with 100 HP and 104 Torque.
I added the V&H ProPipe and 211 cams and got these numbers.
Not sure if I got a good reading from Fremont HD
Not sure what gave me the most benifit, Pipes or Cams
All I know is,
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I think we are going down to RC Cycles in Hayward on Saturday to have HD-Bling's bike dyno'ed just to see how close he is to what Vallejo HD gave him when they ran the dyno. He is thinking VHD really screwed him on the dyno.
I'll let you know what happens
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Had the
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You might be or not be concerned about the numbers generally. That's a different question. But don't be concerned at all that one dyno is different as compared to another even though nothing on the bike's hardware changed. Environmental differences have a significant impact. Warmer day versus cooler for denser air. Humidity. Everything matters. So don't let a few % difference between separate dyno runs (especially on different machines) worry you at all. Granted, SAE smoothing is supposed to take all those factors in to account. But not in the real world.....
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I wouldn't agree that the air/fuel ratio is good, unless you're talking about after 3,800 rpm. You can also get better with the HP and TQ with the right tuner. Take a look at some of the previous dyno sheets in regards to A/F ratio and HP and TQ. Take a look at mine, or hd-dude's or Erniezap. We're all from Northern Calif. but all three of our bikes were tuned by different tuners on different dynos and we're all above 100 in both HP and TQ and our A/F ratio is much closer to 13 across the board (for ideal tuning).
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Ok, with all the talk on another thread (http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1133109033/14#14) about STD vs SAE dyno numbers it made me look at mines to see what they were. In doing so I found that my numbers were neither.
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If somebody could explain to me what "DIN Torque" and "DIN Horsepower" compare, or what they are I would appreciate it.
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D00d,
DIN is just another measurement standard.
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Off topic replies have been moved to [link=http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1136574508]This Thread[/link]
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Hello everyone.
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Continuation of post #471
ECE -- The ECE standard is based on the European Directives. Power is corrected to reference conditions of 99 kPa (29.23 InHg) of dry air and 25
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Continuation of post #472
Beat the Drum The crooked dyno operator can reprogram the weight of the drum, which will allow the dyno to create anomalous power numbers.
Change Load Changing the load by tightening or loosening the tie-down between runs can compromise any comparisons made with the dyno testing.
Messing With the Weather This is where the dyno operator has to be extremely devious. If you mess with the readings that the computer uses to calculate the correction factor, you can alter the corrected output significantly. The one reading that the built-in sensors do not take automatically is humidity. The dyno operator has to enter the humidity correction themselves. Since the humidity is manually entered into the computer it is the easiest to alter. While humidity numbers are obviously suspect, the temperature can be faked pretty easily as well. Another good way of bumping up the power figures is by "playing about" with the air temperature and pressure corrections. If you dial in your own "standard" conditions as being freezing cold with the barometer going off the scale, or you put the temperature probe near the engine, you can get the system to add huge amounts of power to what was actually measured. So make sure you know if such corrections were made or not and to what standards they were made if any. We actually decided to try this one, just to see how easily it could be done.
Jackson Racing's Dynojet is set up with the weather data box mounted on a perpetually-shady portion of the dyno room wall. The temperature probe hangs under the box in the open air about two feet off the ground--right where most air intakes pull their air supply. Oscar Jackson pointed out that he has seen these boxes mounted where they were more easily accessed, and has even seen the temperature sensor hanging on a divider wall next to the computer, or in a drawer on the dyno bench. In the drawer, an unscrupulous dyno operator could put his or her hand around the sensor before doing a run, bumping the ambient temperature reading up into the 90-degree range. With it hanging on a well-placed wall, the sensor could be flipped from the shade into direct sunlight, where it could slowly bake up to a nice, warm temperature.
The wire on Jackson's sensor was only about two feet long, so we couldn't get it into the sun, and a shield prevented holding the sensor in a warm hand from having much effect. Instead, I cupped my hands around the sensor and blew on it. Within 30 seconds the dyno was reading 95 degree ambient temperatures even though our baseline run made a few minutes earlier had been in 66-degree air. We made another run with the engine breathing 66-degree air, but the dyno correcting for 95-degree air. Our corrected power jumped from 136 hp to 143 hp.
Correction factors between 0.97 and 1.03 are pretty normal. Outside that range, you should be on the lookout for large differences between the runs you are comparing.
In order for dyno results to be comparable and universally understood there are a number of things that need to be closely controlled during the measurement process: Operating Conditions - air temperature, pressure and humidity affect the amount of power an engine produces. Cold dense air means a greater mass of oxygen per power cycle and thus more power is generated (provided of course that air/fuel mixture is properly calibrated for the conditions prevailing). There are formula that can be used to calculate how much the measured power would change if the test conditions were different. This enables dyno results to be "corrected" back to standard conditions to enable comparison with anyone else's test results. Sadly however there is no one universally accepted set of "standard" conditions because different automotive bodies in different countries use different standards to calibrate to. "SAE" power standards are used in the USA and sometimes in England. "DIN" standards are used in Europe and there are a few other oddball systems just to confuse the issue. So just because your car is rated at 100 bhp and a friends at 110 bhp doesn't necessarily mean that his engine is more powerful - it depends whether both measurements were corrected to the same standard conditions.
From Short Block Charlie 7/24/04 One of the big problems I see with dyno charts is the following. Was the dyno test performed in a dyno cell? A dyno cell is designed to input air and remove exhaust for proper tests. If not, you will see false readings. Very few dyno facilities have this, such as the traveling dyno tuners. The dyno has the capableness to compensate for humidity and elevation to record corrected information. The other problem I have with my own customers is they will get a dyno sheet that is not impressive, but bike runs like rocket ship. There is a lot of magic out there to fool the consumer.
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Continuation of post #473
An engine's output depends on the quality of air it breathes, and it is therefore essential to take into account variances in air pressure, temperature and humidity when measuring horsepower. Raw numbers are generally normalized to sea level conditions within a dynamometer's software using a standard correction factor. However, this does not mean you will get identical readings from two different dynos, or for that matter, the same dyno on two different days. While the dynamometer corrects the horsepower it reads to standard atmospheric conditions, it cannot account for jetting changes you should have made to account for the weather. For example, you could run your bike at the local dyno and see 100 corrected horsepower on a cold day and return--without changes--on a hot day for another run and get 98 corrected horsepower. Where's the two horsepower? To get back to 100 horsepower, you'd have to lean your bike out for the hotter weather. Because different weather conditions can result in different air densities and different oxygen concentrations, the weather can have a significant effect on power output. The SAE has a standard set of correction factors that can be used to normalize all power outputs to what they would be at sea level, on a 60 degree day, with 0 percent humidity. Every Dynojet has a small weather station built in to feed the appropriate temperature and barometric pressure readings to the computer so it can calculate this factor. The difference between 0 percent and 100 percent humidity is about a seven percent correction. A temperature change from 60 to 90 degrees, on the other hand, will have an effect of about a 2.8 percent. A difference in elevation from sea level to 5000 feet is worth a whopping 20 percent!
Operating Conditions Altitude, air temperature, pressure and humidity affect the amount of power an engine produces. The only thing to really worry about is the A to B changes on the same bike, same dyno, same day.
Sometimes you may want to know how much power you are really making on that specific day due to the temperature, humidity and pressure on that day; in that case, you should look at the uncorrected power readings.
When you want to see how much more power you have solely due to the new exhaust or the new cam, then you will find that the corrected power is more useful. It removes the effects of the temperature, humidity and atmospheric pressure and just shows you how much more (or less) power you have than in your previous tests.
Altitude As you increase your altitude the octane requirement decreases 1-2 octane per 3000 feet elevation. This is because the density of the air is reduced or there is less air available for your motor to burn. The higher the altitude, the richer your motor will run, making it necessary to re-jet the motor in order to lean it out. The fuel volume remains the same and the air volume goes down. If you have a vacuum advance, as the altitude increases, the motor makes less vacuum and the air fuel ratio becomes richer due to the decreasing air to fuel volume. Altitude and weather systems change the air's pressure. As you go higher, the air pressure decreases from around 1,000 millibars at sea level to 500 millibars at around 18,000 feet. Most of us race at less than 1000 feet of elevation. Weather systems that bring higher or lower air pressure also affect the air's density, but not nearly as much as altitude. Air density is lowest at a high elevation on a hot day when the atmospheric pressure is low, say in Denver when a storm is moving in on a hot day. The air's density is highest at low elevations when the pressure is high and the temperature is low, such as on a sunny but extremely cold, winter's day in New Hampshire. Humidity and air density Most people who haven't studied physics or chemistry find it hard to believe that humid air is lighter, or less dense, than dry air. How many times have you heard someone tell you to add more gear on a hot humid day because it is harder to push the kart through the hot humid air. The inverse is really true, the kart flows easier through the air but the pressure needed to fill the cylinder with the proper air fuel mixture is lessened by lowered air density.
Temperature When the temperature goes up, the air density decreases, thus you have less air available for combustion and your air fuel ratio becomes richer. The same works in reverse. As the temperature goes down, you end up with more air per cubic foot, and without re-jetting your carburetor, the engine will run leaner.
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Continuation of post #474
Air Density As the air density increases, your engine will lean out. As the air density goes down, the engine runs richer. Like driving up a mountain, at the top, the motor has less power because you have less air to burn. Cold dense air means a greater mass of oxygen per power cycle and thus more power is generated (provided of course that air/fuel mixture is properly calibrated for the conditions prevailing). Air density is a combination of two factors: barometric pressure and temperature. At 85 degrees Farenheight and at 29.92 inches of mercury for barometric pressure (at normal sea level) air density is considered to be at 100%. The horsepower and torque available from a normally aspirated internal combustion engine are dependent upon the density of the air... higher density means more oxygen molecules and more power... lower density means less oxygen and less power.
The relative horsepower, and the dyno correction factor, allow mathematical calculation of the affects of air density on the wide-open-throttle horsepower and torque. The dyno correction factor is simply the mathematical reciprocal of the relative horsepower value.
Air density is affected by the temperature, pressure and humidity of the air. On a hot day, or at high altitude, or on a moist day the air is less dense which means that there is less oxygen available for combustion which, in turn, means that there is also less engine horsepower and torque.
Vapor Pressure Humidity or vapor pressure is an important factor in calculating the corrected horsepower and torque values. An abnormally high vapor-pressure figure will inflate the torque and power numbers. Cool days typically produce 0.3-0.4 vapor-pressure readings. You'll likely see 0.6-0.7 vapor-pressure numbers only on hot, humid days; 0.9 or higher would occur only if it's raining cats and dogs.
Inputing the right barometric pressure is one of the most important factors in obtaining accurate corrected torque and power numbers. Traditionalists still rely on a wall-mounted mercury barometer, but its reading must be corrected for temperature and gravity.
Humidity When the humidity increases, octane requirements ease. The formula is something like... for every one gram of water increase per one kilogram of dry air the octane decreases by .25 to .35. WWII aviation engines used water injection and it worked well for a short time by cooling the cylinder temperature. As temperature goes back the effect goes away.
Many people think that the dyno is the "all knowing, almighty," last word. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
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IMHO
The best TQ curve is one where the TQ steadily and smoothly increases over the whole rpm range. A long broad TQ curve over the rpm range where most riding is done....looks more like a mesa or plateau than one of the Alps. For concern would be any dips or spikes in the curve because this will induce a feeling of flat-spots - areas of the rpm band where the bike feels lethargic or feels like bogging down. When comparing runs it is important not to look at peak figures, rather it is necessary to look at the whole of the curve. The torque curve which will accelerate a bike the fastest is the one with the greatest area under the curve for the rev range of the engine, so this is a good method to compare torque curves.
Torque is what gets you started. Torque breaks your wheels loose when you launch, and torque allows trucks to tow heavy loads. Torque accelerates your vehicle. Combine some measure of torque with speed and time, and the result is horsepower. Horsepower is what gets you through the quarter-mile. As far as which one is best, the answer is - it's best to have both. High torque numbers allow you to leave the gate quickly and power out of turns. High horsepower numbers keep the vehicle accelerating and give it a higher top end. Just as important as the peak numbers, though, is what your curves look like, and where those peaks are. An engine might have a high horsepower peak at a high rpm, and a graph that looks like one side of a steep mountain. This means that in order to take advantage of the high horsepower, the rider must keep the engine at that high rpm. This requires more shifting, which can result in lost time. Flat curves mean that the rider can take advantage of the engine's power without as much shifting, but in order to obtain a flatter curve, an engine tuner must sacrifice some power.
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Thanks Bagger, this has been helpful.
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Some more tidbits - just stuff I've found, may or may not agree with.
From "Harley-Davidson Bolt-On Performance" - Denis Manning, owner of Bub Enterprises.
In road racing, you can beat guys every time if you can beat them in the low RPM range coming out of a corner.
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Torque article by the late Jim Feuling.
HARD AS IT MAY BE for those of us brought up to think of horsepower as the ultimate measure of an engine
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Great info Baggerdad. Welcome to the site [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] You don't need a CVO to participate here. There are many here that don't. Just keep posting good info!
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I just had the HD Race Tuner installed and Dyno tuned.
Only mods I did prior to the Race Tuner was the Screaming Eagle Air Intake Kit and the Screaming Eagle Slip Ons with the standard download.
I don't have the dyno sheet back from the dealer yet but over the phone they say that maximum HP is 97.6 and max torque is 98.3.
At what RPM etc I don't know yet but it seems to me to be pretty repectable numbers based on the minor modifications that I had done.
Mileage is now just shy of 7,500.
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The blue was with just the V&H ovals and RT, the red is after we added the V&H true dauls headers.
(http://pic13.picturetrail.com/VOL488/1126801/7338630/129654222.jpg)
(http://pic13.picturetrail.com/VOL488/1126801/7338630/129654220.jpg)
(http://pic13.picturetrail.com/VOL488/1126801/7338630/129654221.jpg)
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I like those numbers.I have the ovals on my seeg,I am putting on the Bassini head pipes and I am on the fence on doing the race tuner or the thundermax [smiley=nixweiss.gif]I want too add the new Zippers gear cams . [smiley=pumpkin.gif]Its a long winter here!!!
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Hey Jimp, I'm just about to fit the V&H True Duals and Ovals to my '05 SEEG
I'm impressed by your figures - I guess you are well pleased with them?
What Air Filter are you using?
Cheers
Dave
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Hey Jimp, I'm just about to fit the V&H True Duals and Ovals to my '05 SEEG
I'm impressed by your figures - I guess you are well pleased with them?
What Air Filter are you using?
Cheers
Dave
Yes, but I'm going to play with a set of STrapp slip-on next ,Zippers AF.
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OK Thanks
I have the Zippers A/F too - the "deep pan special" for the CVO guys right?
I also have an Arlen Ness A/F which looks kinda backasswards but fits right on the SE backplate with no casing around, just the outer cover - It's a K&N style too but has even more surface area than the deep Zippers so I will do comparisons when I get it all together and on the dyno to see which works best.
Cheers
Dave
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OK Thanks
I have the Zippers A/F too - the "deep pan special" for the CVO guys right?
I also have an Arlen Ness A/F which looks kinda backasswards but fits right on the SE backplate with no casing around, just the outer cover - It's a K&N style too but has even more surface area than the deep Zippers so I will do comparisons when I get it all together and on the dyno to see which works best.
Cheers
Dave
Yes the deep one with the stock cover.
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Finally found some nice weather and rode an hour to Pro Street Cycles in Richmond and had the bike dynoed after I installed the Freedom Exhaust package, PC III, and Stage 1 air cleaner. Need to find a scanner and I'll upload the graphs if anyone is interested. I didn't have the stock configuration dynoed but others have given us their numbers--and she sounds nice too!!
Basic Freedom Package--96.60 Max Power and 101.85 Max Torque
Dynoed Results--102.02 Max Power and 104.51 Max Torque
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Finally found some nice weather and rode an hour to Pro Street Cycles in Richmond and had the bike dynoed after I installed the Freedom Exhaust package, PC III, and Stage 1 air cleaner.
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Posting Dyno for my husband, he never has enough time.
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Added gear drive and andrews TW60 cam, (stone stock heads, pistons and throttlebody) went from 94/94 to 105/105, parts cost $650. Well worth the investment seat of the pants is very noticable, however I know need a bigger tire in the back. [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
notice the green line on the sheet it represents new cam installed no MAP changes, lost a bunch of power.
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O',
Where ya been? Its been waaay to quiet lately around here...........except for an occasional flare up from those twin bad boys in Dago. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]
Looks like the new set up was an excellent choice!
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Rinehart True duals,Big Sucker,and Race Tuner.
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You need your bi-focals to read the sheet. It says 100.33 HP and 104.09 torque. Dyno run in 4th gear. Starting point was 78.46 HP and 90.83 torque. The shop gives anyone that breaks the 100 HP mark a free T-shirt that states the fact. Kind of cool.
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You need your bi-focals to read the sheet.
GTX, I replaced with the one I re-sized for you in the other thread. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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My money is on that Wiley character known as the Dawg........
He's cooking something up.....especially if he's considering parting with his VRod as he mentioned in another thread.
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My money is on that Wiley character known as the Dawg........
He's cooking something up.....especially if he's considering parting with his VRod as he mentioned in another thread.
That's a warning worth taking Fatboy. That little "Punkin" might be The Great Punkin before the Dawg has his day.
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Just scanned TonyS dyno sheet for him.
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JC,
What is the entire package Tonys running in your last post?
Thanks,
Fatboy
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JC,
What is the entire package Tonys running in your last post?
Thanks,
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The pipes may be why it doesn't build torque earlier.......
Who makes the cam?
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The pipes may be why it doesn't build torque earlier.......
Who makes the cam?
I'm not sure who makes that cam. If Tony doesn't come on here before then and let us know.......I plan on stopping by down there later this week, I'll try to find out.
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Hello everyone
Here is the evaluation on my bike at Daytona.
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Here is the map
(Resized for you)
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wow that scooter has some good torque
jeffj
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Question here concerning these last two dyno sheets, and specifically the first one.
I understand that on all 45 degree V-Twins that the HP/TQ meet at 5250 RPM, but on the first dyno they meet at that RPM and HP starts to drop. From all the ones I've seen before normally they meet at the RPM and HP continues to go up, and TQ starts to decline. Since this is the first one I've seen like this was just wondering if anybody else has seen this occur?
[highlight]UPDATE[/highlight]
Oops :-[ Little optical illusion there. When I looked closer I noticed that they do cross as normal and HP is still gaining. My bad.
[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]
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I'm not sure. I'm new to the EFI tuning game. I did witness the test and was surprised when Robert did not take it to the rev limiter area, 6200 rpm. The highest I saw on his monitor was 5600. But, he did not ask anly questions on mods that I have done. I didn't offer any either. My thought was to get the PCIII and later finish the build. I was concerned about having the dyno performed, because of the dealer install without a dyno set up, and that they may have been relying on a tune that was not proven after the head job. I hate to tell the tuner that I had all this mod stuff done and the limiter was set at 6200 and then float the valves or worse being 1300 miles from home and the waiver that I signed.
I was primarily trying to get the current evaluation against the stock set up. I think the chart shows that the dealer was conservative and the dyno was done to a stock set up stretched a little more than the dealers. I still think there is some room left to squeak it up, but I am not sure that I would use it with the current mods. Later maybe.
Just thinking out loud. Appreciate your views and posted to get them. I'm looking for a strong motor that can get me out of trouble as fast as I get into it.
Bob
PS, thanks 2 lane for the resize, I blew it.
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Hey Jimp, for some reason, your dyno sheets from February 16, 2006 are no longer in that post--just red x's.
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The pipes may be why it doesn't build torque earlier.......
Who makes the cam?
Andrews makes a TW67G I assume that's the cam he is referencing
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I'm not sure. I'm new to the EFI tuning game. I did witness the test and was surprised when Robert did not take it to the rev limiter area, 6200 rpm. The highest I saw on his monitor was 5600. But, he did not ask anly questions on mods that I have done. I didn't offer any either. My thought was to get the PCIII and later finish the build. I was concerned about having the dyno performed, because of the dealer install without a dyno set up, and that they may have been relying on a tune that was not proven after the head job. I hate to tell the tuner that I had all this mod stuff done and the limiter was set at 6200 and then float the valves or worse being 1300 miles from home and the waiver that I signed.
I was primarily trying to get the current evaluation against the stock set up. I think the chart shows that the dealer was conservative and the dyno was done to a stock set up stretched a little more than the dealers. I still think there is some room left to squeak it up, but I am not sure that I would use it with the current mods. Later maybe.
Just thinking out loud. Appreciate your views and posted to get them. I'm looking for a strong motor that can get me out of trouble as fast as I get into it.
Bob
PS, thanks 2 lane for the resize, I blew it.
Crawdaddy I believe the factory rev limiter is set at 5600 and I don't believe you can change that with PCIIIr and if thats the case it looks like he was bouncing of the limiter or the stage 1 kit maybe raises it
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The factory rev limit is 5800 rpm. With the PCIII usb you can now get a rev-extend firmware update that bumps it to 6200 rpm. See this thread for info on the rev-extend:
http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1139441004
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I know, but my dealer increased it to 6200 after installing the heads, pistons and cams.
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The pipes may be why it doesn't build torque earlier.......
Who makes the cam?
I confirmed at the dealership yesterday......they're Andrews gear drive cams.
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Hello to all! Finally got my bike tuned in. TW37 with a 4 degree andvance, Supertrapp Supermeg with open end cap and 12 discs, SE air box, stock heads and gaskets. The tuner took out the flat spots and it runs great now. Won't be able to enjoy it for a while because winter is back!
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thats a great looking graph!!!
enjoy the ride!!
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That should run NICE!!! [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
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JC,
What is the entire package Tonys running in your last post?
Thanks,
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Freedom pipes, PCIII usb, SE air filter and Freedom Cams. No headwork. The first dyno run was done in May of '05 and before installation of the cams. Cams added 4.3 HP and 12.4 ft-lbs of torque. As might be expected the bike runs stronger everywhere. More later as the weather improves.
Dan
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Nice numbers, mine were similar
jeffj
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Looks like the Zipper's/Fat Cat combo has a lot stronger bottom end. It takes a bit for that Freedom package to get wound up, but once it does it the number's look strong. Albeit in "STD"....I'd still like to see it compared to an "SAE" reading.
I've asked Freedom 1 several times over several month's for that info (you'd think they have it) and kept getting told it's coming........... [smiley=confused5.gif]
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A repost of DCFireman's dyno sheet.
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Brian yes that is the dyno I was refering to. The cams in the bike during the test run I saw were believe it or not CHAIN DRIVEN!!!! I don't know why and didn't ask Bobby (the dyno king) The TQ curve comes on early and just stays they. Cylinder pressure are greatly increased over the stock cams and the overall performance is very good. All Zippers readings are SAE corrected. The uncoreccted numbers were much higher. I hope this helps.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Got my bike dynoed. 05 Ultra 95" SE Flatops,Scottsman Heads set at 84cc,.030 hg TW21cams,PC3,BigSucker and D&D Fatcat.
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could someonr direct me to the rifgt sit i just bought a se ultra and i had pipes and tuner put on at my local non harley shop will i get flack for having it done if i was to go in for warrenty work on my new bike
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Welcome to the Site JCharos,
Not exactly sure what you mean by right site.
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Here are the Dyno results for the green machine.
The blue lines are the current setup.
The red lines are the 253 cams, SE air cleaner K&N air filter, race tuner and Rineharts.
Current setup = TW 37G cams, Race tuner, SE air cleaner, K&N air filter, Vance and Hines true dual headers, Supertrapp 3" IDS mufflers w/10 discs/muffler, cometic 030 head gaskets, SE adjustable push rods.
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Here is my dyno sheets with Zippers 575 Lift Cams, Andrews Gear Drive, Zippers Pushrods, Fueling Oil Pump, Fueling Lifters, SE AC with K&N Filter,D&D Fat Cats 2-1 Exhaust System with Ghost Pipe, Zippers Thundermax ECM with Modified Map, Zippers Map, and baseline run was with SE AC with K&N Filter, SE Pro Performance Mufflers and Calibration Cartridge.
First sheet is comparing Baseline with Final run with Modified Zippers Mapping.
JR [smiley=banana.gif]
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Next one is with Zippers Map for Cams, Exhaust, Thundermax ECM and SE Air.
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This one is with modified Map and Air/Fuel readings.
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Finally got my custom map done on the SEEG.
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Hey there fellow CVO dudes.....This is just my 2nd post and I'm sure how to post the pic so I will just have to tell you my dyno numbers. Max power 113.3 Max tork 111.4. The tork hits 100 at 2750 rpms while the horse power hits 100 at 4750 rpm. Seems to run real good. Its a VTX killer :)> I'll try to post the dyno sheet from my work computor on my next post.
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Hey Sid8d! Warm welcome to this wonderful site! Here is a link that is located in F.A.Q. that may help you post your dyno sheet. http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1118675329 What kind of modifications have been done to your scooter? Oops, just noticed what you got in your signature. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Thanks JR, I will have to try again. Later it didn't work. Maybe if I snap a pic of it and save it into my pics. Now it is in my pics with some goofy program from scanning it. I will get it on here a figure it out.
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Freedom Cycles Exhaust, PCIII usb, Stage 1 AC, Freedom Cycles FCC9 Cams
More info on the tune here:
http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1148443054/0#0
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Nice numbers Jim, Did Bob dyno it ? I heard they changed things around some. Do they still let you sit in and watch while they Dyno ?
When it comes to Dyno Tuning these guys really know what they are doing.
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Nice numbers Jim, Did Bob dyno it ? I heard they changed things around some. Do they still let you sit in and watch while they Dyno ?
When it comes to Dyno Tuning these guys really know what they are doing.
Yep, Bob is the man....They took over another space in the strip that they are in and dedicated it to the Dyno. They recessed machine into the floor in the room. They have a huge fan drawing air through the room as well the normal fans on the bike. Its a trick setup [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Freedom Cycles Exhaust, PCIII usb, Stage 1 AC, Freedom Cycles FCC9 Cams
More info on the tune here:
http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1148443054/0#0
Those are some impressive numbers considering that you have stock heads! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] When I get back from the east (and when I can scrape together a few pennies, dimes and nickels [smiley=nervous.gif]) I think I'll try those cams with my Race Tuner and V&H Pro Pipe and see what the numbers look like. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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Those are some impressive numbers considering that you have stock heads! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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What kind of cam is FCC9 ? Low, Mid, High etc, etc,
I need to know when and when not to try to keep up with you. I am told my 211 is mid to high.
Our numbers are really close. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]
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What kind of cam is FCC9 ? Low, Mid, High etc, etc,
I need to know when and when not to try to keep up with you. I am told my 211 is mid to high.
Our numbers are really close. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]
Not sure, but based on the torque curve I would say low to mid. 90 ft/lbs out of the gate and peaks at 115 at 4k. The most substancial increase is from the 3-4k rpm range. :D
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well if i could figure out how to scan I'd show you my shett, maybe when the wife talks to me again after blowing money on the seeg but 103+ heads and pistons +.005, T-man 590, gear drive,se air cleaner thunder header pcIII usb and dyno dave at Doc,s HD in St. louis. 115 hp and 125 tq
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well if i could figure out how to scan I'd show you my shett, maybe when the wife talks to me again after blowing money on the seeg but
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Jim (HD-Dude) put the Freedom Cams in my bike last night, so I brought it to RC Cycles today to get it tuned.
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Although much of the discussion has already taken place in this thread: http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1149645971/82#82, I wanted to post the results of my latest mods in this thread, as well. The dyno sheet below is on a 2004 SEEG with the following modifications:
SE air cleaner
Zipper's 575 cams
Andrews/S&S geardrive & bearings
Zipper's adjustable pushrods
Feuling lifters
Feuling oil pump
Zipper's bypass shim
Rinehart True Dual exhaust system
SE Race Tuner with mapping performed by Brian Rose at Bumpus H-D in Memphis, TN
The baseline dyno run was with SE one-piece slip-ons, SE air cleaner and the standard Stage 1 download. The gains resulting from the work above resulted in +16HP and +19TQ.
(http://flhrsei.org/yabb2/Attachments/Brianvs_Before_and_After_run_Medium.jpg)
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Well that ought to feel a bit different Brian.....or a whole lot different would be more like it. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Congratulations on the new upgrades. You'll have a lot of fun down there at MV.
J.C.
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Man, all you guys are killing me........all us 'stockers' will just have to tag along as best we can and try to keep up. Hope there's some BBQ & Beer left when we finally arrive. har! [smiley=drink.gif] spyder
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Man, all you guys are killing me........all us 'stockers' will just have to tag along as best we can and try to keep up.
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I agree Spyder!
We may not get any food.
Mine isn't even broke in with just 900 miles.
And besides [highlight]it's stock[/highlight].
And YES, that's killin me! :'(
[smiley=zwtf.gif]......yeah, stock 120. ::) har! [smiley=drink.gif] spyder ps: take off work tomorrow and ride to Myrtle Beach and back......that'll put some 'brake-in' miles on 'er.
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Here's a b4 & aft chart of my 04
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[smiley=oops.gif] must have not got the attach.
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resized to 800 x 600 for Miss PuneTang .....
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Brian,
We need a set of 575's in this thing ... would wake it right up
One question for you did your gas mileage drop at all or go up... Seems its a tiny bit more consistent now, but it was a bit richer at times with the slip ons.
-harry
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While it's not a SEEG, it is a 103" motor so I thought I'd put CVO Joe's dyno results in this thread for the SEEG owners that are looking..........
Posting this Dyno sheet for CVOJOE I did his cam swap to the FCC14 Gear drive cams, Delkron Billet Cam plate, Fueling lifters and oil pump. SE pushrods. Also added Billet pushrod tubes and lifter blocks.
He already had a Ness Big Sucker, Rineharts, and the Race Tuner.
Numbers are the best I've seen from a 103 with stock heads and pistons. Tq kicks in at 2800 and pulls hard to 4k.
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I got some good news and I got some bad news with my dyno run (and sheet posted below). The numbers were higher (good news).........but not as high as they could have been had my clutch not been slipping. >:( Sent it back to Jim's just after the dyno for a set of clutch plates and new spring. However, a new dyno run pull wasn't done after the clutch plates were changed.
This is with stock heads, Vance & Hines Pro Pipe, high flow air cleaner, FCC14 gear drive cams and Fueling Rivera oil pump. I also have the automatic primary chain tensoioner and the bearing support plate.
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Here's mine after before and after the Zippers 575 install. '05 SEEG2, SE air filter, SE 2 - piece slip ons, SERT. Too much snow to go for a test ride but think I'll be real pleased w/ the increased torque at the bottom / middle.
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I got some good news and I got some bad news with my dyno run (and sheet posted below). The numbers were higher (good news).........but not as high as they could have been had my clutch not been slipping. >:( Sent it back to Jim's just after the dyno for a set of clutch plates and new spring. However, a new dyno run pull wasn't done after the clutch plates were changed.
This is with stock heads, Vance & Hines Pro Pipe, high flow air cleaner, FCC14 gear drive cams and Fueling Rivera oil pump. I also have the automatic primary chain tensoioner and the bearing support plate.
What kind of MORON Dyno Tech dynos a bike with a slipping clutch?
Even if he discovered it during the run, he should have quit.
PLEASE tell me it wasn't Dave at Folsom HD...
Hope they did not charge you to run it twice :)
Let me know when its done and we will go shake the bugs out! Mine is being Dynoed tomorrow, Please tell me it wasn't DAVE, Please!
Steven
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I know who JC used, and it wasn't Dave or Folsom HD...
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I know who JC used, and it wasn't Dave or Folsom HD...
Me too, because I was there :huepfenlol2:. The tech that did it is anything but a Moron. The clutch did not start slipping until the final couple of pulls on the dyno.
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The same guy dyno'd my bike about 6 months ago and it runs great! As to the slipping clutch, sucks that it happened right when it on the dyno, but chit happens. As long as the bike is running good, it doesn't matter. Not into the dyno bragging rights or I would have put 100 octane gas in the bike and a top end cam for the dyno runs...
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Me too, because I was there :huepfenlol2:. The tech that did it is anything but a Moron. The clutch did not start slipping until the final couple of pulls on the dyno.
It went straight back to Jim's and got the clutch plates and discs changed out and now it grabs like it did when it was new. Yes, it went back to the dyno for further tunning and Jim was there for that, too.........however, I don't have a print out of that. I just know that my bike is running better than it was when my dyno sheet was printed.
I've been putting the miles on it since...........
At 104 HP and 113 TQ even with a slipping clutch.....that's nothin to sneeze at. Those are some pretty good numbers considering it still has stock heads on a 103" motor.
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Me too, because I was there :huepfenlol2:. The tech that did it is anything but a Moron. The clutch did not start slipping until the final couple of pulls on the dyno.
Scared me to hear someone dynoed a bike with a slipping clutch, I am sure if you all trust him he is OK.
It is nice it have it put in context.
Sorry, I assumed it was slipping the whole time.
My mistake for assuming.
Great Numbers! :2vrolijk_21:
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Scared me to hear someone dynoed a bike with a slipping clutch, I am sure if you all trust him he is OK.
It is nice it have it put in context.
Sorry, I assumed it was slipping the whole time.
My mistake for assuming.
Great Numbers! :2vrolijk_21:
Steven.....was great riding with you yesterday. I guess we put the slipping clutch issue to rest.
Your bike runs mighty strong, too. And you're a damn good rider. For the record guys.....Steven is one of those guys who can take the lead on lane splitting and thread a needle with his Ultra Classic and has no problem riding at 100+ mph for mile after mile after mile. The ride home was definately different than the ride over.....as the horse was getting closer to the barn. :2vrolijk_21:
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3z's, great to hear you're putting those ponies to good use! ;) Get your ass to NYC sometime. We'll go for a good hell ride! Or the next time I get out your way! Our paths will cross some day. We'll have some real fun too! :2vrolijk_21: Hoist! 8)
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Steven.....was great riding with you yesterday. I guess we put the slipping clutch issue to rest.
Your bike runs mighty strong, too. And you're a damn good rider. For the record guys.....Steven is one of those guys who can take the lead on lane splitting and thread a needle with his Ultra Classic and has no problem riding at 100+ mph for mile after mile after mile. The ride home was definately different than the ride over.....as the horse was getting closer to the barn. :2vrolijk_21:
JC
Gotta say,
One of the (many) highlights of your trip to the "RIGHT COAST" was that 100 mile an hour ride (minimum) to get your camera!
I know Hubbard would have enjoyed it also.
S
/
B
:2vrolijk_21:
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Steven.....was great riding with you yesterday. I guess we put the slipping clutch issue to rest.
Your bike runs mighty strong, too. And you're a damn good rider. For the record guys.....Steven is one of those guys who can take the lead on lane splitting and thread a needle with his Ultra Classic and has no problem riding at 100+ mph for mile after mile after mile. The ride home was definitely different than the ride over.....as the horse was getting closer to the barn. :2vrolijk_21:
Thanks Jc,
JC's clutch is all better and the only reason I took the lead on splittin there was a crotch rocket splittin 1 and 2 , JC and I were in 2 and 3, I caught a hole on the right to 1/4 mile off ramp(we did not get off) got back in and Jc was right on my tail :2vrolijk_21:
Later on the lanes were merging 4 to 3, a semi was blocking 3 and 4, I braked, pointed right, JC hammered past and was back in the lead..
I am curious about one thing, if you are splitting>>> Does that break the 2 second rule?? :orange: Technically there is nothing in front of you :bananarock:
As JC stated the ride home was fun, We had never ridden together so the first half of the day was a little mellow. All in all it was a great day, Thanks JC! :2vrolijk_21:
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Got my bike back from the dyno yesterday evening
This is with PCIII, AN big sucker, V&H True Duals, S&S SPO's, 575 Gear Drive Cams, Feuling oil pump + Lifters, SE pushrods (and a HID headlamp!!) - Thanks to everyone who blazed the trail for me. :2vrolijk_21:
I have the PC hub fitted too with the switch to change between maps (Economy and Power) but haven't tried that yet.
According to Dynojet the difference is only effective between 10% and 40% throttle and even then the AFR is only 13.8 on economy as against 12.8 on power so I won't be breaking any fuel economy records just yet
These graphs are on the power map - don't know why the layout is like this - it just is...
I have now posted the charts as jpg and there is another page which I will post in a minute
To be honest the numbers are better than I expected and from the seat of the pants it is just great :)
I only went out for 40 miles last night - it was a bit cool (5C = 41F) but opening the throttle at 2000 - 2500 rpm in second and it absolutely shoots away.
Not too noisy on the SPO's either so I am a happy man - for now - and so are my neighbours!!
I'll post the "before cams" graph next
Cheers :drink:
Dave
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This is the before Dyno chart showing the original numbers at 3202 miles with V&H Ovals, then at 14,748 with SPO's
Cheers
Dave
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This is the second chart from the latest tune
AFR nice and flat
Cheers
Dave
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These are stock dyno numbers. This is new to me, would like to understand the significance of how the numbers break out. Maybe someone here is really bored and has the time or inclination to explain this to a newbie.
What's the goal as you make your adjustments. Is higher really better? Where do you want your power and torque on the curve so that it works? Can you make adjustments, such as cams, exhaust, etc, with confidence that you can achieve your goal? Or is it a trial and error sort of thing?
Any source, such as an article, or whatever, so that I can learn? Thanks.
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These are stock dyno numbers. This is new to me, would like to understand the significance of how the numbers break out. Maybe someone here is really bored and has the time or inclination to explain this to a newbie.
What's the goal as you make your adjustments. Is higher really better? Where do you want your power and torque on the curve so that it works? Can you make adjustments, such as cams, exhaust, etc, with confidence that you can achieve your goal? Or is it a trial and error sort of thing?
Any source, such as an article, or whatever, so that I can learn? Thanks.
First there are questions for YOU!
What are your riding goals? Touring, off the line performance, topend ???
How do you ride? First off the light, Going with the flow?
The Goals are your preference not your mechanics. If you aren’t honest with your mechanic, you will not be happy with the results.
So be honest in your goals and have honest expectations with your ride.
Don’t expect to spend $500.00 on a stock 88 or 96 /, to end up with a tire smoking daemon.
This is all about YOU and your goals. Ir you can define your goals there are qualified people who can advise you.
They can not read your mind and you must be honest in your desires.
Once you decide What???
Decide if your warranty is important?
If so Consult your dealer Service Manager. The Service Writers are great but they don’t handel your warranty claim with HD. This is very important!
Good Luck
IronButt
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These are stock dyno numbers. This is new to me, would like to understand the significance of how the numbers break out. Maybe someone here is really bored and has the time or inclination to explain this to a newbie.
What's the goal as you make your adjustments. Is higher really better? Where do you want your power and torque on the curve so that it works? Can you make adjustments, such as cams, exhaust, etc, with confidence that you can achieve your goal? Or is it a trial and error sort of thing?
Any source, such as an article, or whatever, so that I can learn? Thanks.
This was contributed by a member a long time ago and I saved it as a word document. Can't remember the thread or the member to refer you back to, but have attached it again. It is long, but will explain dyno tuning, and hopefully answer some of your questions.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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This was contributed by a member a long time ago and I saved it as a word document. Can't remember the thread or the member to refer you back to, but have attached it again. It is long, but will explain dyno tuning, and hopefully answer some of your questions.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Nice article Fired00d :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
If your computer will not open it, select OPEN WITH, Microsoft NOTE PAD and it will let you read it.
Iron
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These are stock dyno numbers. This is new to me, would like to understand the significance of how the numbers break out. Maybe someone here is really bored and has the time or inclination to explain this to a newbie.
What's the goal as you make your adjustments. Is higher really better? Where do you want your power and torque on the curve so that it works? Can you make adjustments, such as cams, exhaust, etc, with confidence that you can achieve your goal? Or is it a trial and error sort of thing?
Any source, such as an article, or whatever, so that I can learn? Thanks.
After I posted my last reply I noticed what type of bike you own. You have a heavy touring bike and what you are going to want is TQ vs HP unless you are all out drag racing your bike. Reason for this is you have a heavy touring bike and you want to get that weight up and moving down the road quickly (ie: passing a truck, getting out of harms way, jumping off the red light to impress your buddies). Unless you are the type that wants to hold the throttle WFO to see how fast of a speed you can reach on your speedometer then you want TQ early and that will carry you through the RPM range the longest.
There are a couple of choices you have that will work really well with your bike. Both Zippers and Freedom Cycles have developed cams specifically for the CVO 103ci motors. You can find out about these cams here -
REDSHIFT 575 CAMS & OTHER PRETTY PARTS (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=5892.0) There will be some dyno sheets included in that thread with members who have went with those cams.
Freedom Cycles / Yuill Bros. Cam Specs (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=11290.0) Some dyno results for Freedom cams can be found here - Freedom Cycles "Secret" FCC9 Cam Dyno (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=6446.0).
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Fired00d and Ironbutt:
Thanks for your responses, they were both very helpful. That article you gave is excellent Fired00d, now I feel like I have an understanding of the theory and how the dyno is used, very interesting. Your must be a mindreader because the things you mentioned,"passing a truck, getting out of harms way, jumping off the red light to impress your buddies" hit the nail on the head. I will also be riding two up a majority of the time, so thats certainly a factor for me to consider when I'm ready to spend some money. Also, the warranty is still in the picture so I have my research to do. For me, it looks like early TQ rules.
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These are stock dyno numbers. This is new to me, would like to understand the significance of how the numbers break out. Maybe someone here is really bored and has the time or inclination to explain this to a newbie.
What's the goal as you make your adjustments. Is higher really better? Where do you want your power and torque on the curve so that it works? Can you make adjustments, such as cams, exhaust, etc, with confidence that you can achieve your goal? Or is it a trial and error sort of thing?
Any source, such as an article, or whatever, so that I can learn? Thanks.
Read this thread:
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=6566.0
From looking at you AF line it appears to be all over the place. A good tune will have a flat line at about 13.3-13.8. The higher numbers are leaner.
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hd-dude.
Thanks. Wow. That was an education. Its pure physics. Here are some questions and observations.
1. I see now why HD has the AF ratio at 14.7, its the federal standard. They had to comply with the standard that dictates the most efficient use of fuel and is environmentally correct.That efficiency translates into more heat. Its an engineering problem for them (and us). I bet you on Dr. Dyno's first 110 run he had that figured out. They should have put the R&D into it. I wonder if that standard was thrust on them or if they knew all along they would have to deal with it? Anyway, I know this has been covered in depth elsewhere, but now it makes sense.
2. It seems that you wouldn't want to buy mufflers that didn't have adjustable baffles, otherwise you're restricting your ability to get the most out of your bike.
3. My understanding at this point as a newbie to all of this, is that the PC and SERT give you the ability to adjust the fuel injection. So what is the electronic module that adjusts the static timing?
4. That AF ratio is key isnt it. What do you think is the most efficient way to get my AF ratio straightened out on my stock bike? The choices seem somewhat overwhelming due to my lack of experience. Whats the minimum I can get away with?
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hd-dude.
Thanks. Wow. That was an education. Its pure physics. Here are some questions and observations.
1. I see now why HD has the AF ratio at 14.7, its the federal standard. They had to comply with the standard that dictates the most efficient use of fuel and is environmentally correct.That efficiency translates into more heat. Its an engineering problem for them (and us). I bet you on Dr. Dyno's first 110 run he had that figured out. They should have put the R&D into it. I wonder if that standard was thrust on them or if they knew all along they would have to deal with it? Anyway, I know this has been covered in depth elsewhere, but now it makes sense.
2. It seems that you wouldn't want to buy mufflers that didn't have adjustable baffles, otherwise you're restricting your ability to get the most out of your bike.
3. My understanding at this point as a newbie to all of this, is that the PC and SERT give you the ability to adjust the fuel injection. So what is the electronic module that adjusts the static timing?
4. That AF ratio is key isnt it. What do you think is the most efficient way to get my AF ratio straightened out on my stock bike? The choices seem somewhat overwhelming due to my lack of experience. Whats the minimum I can get away with?
Being able to adjust back pressure can certainly help with torque issues, most importantly on bikes with straight pipes.
The module that adjust timing would be the ignition module on carburated bike.
Yes the AF is key to having the bike run well at all RPM's. You state that your bike is stock? Stock pipes, Air cleaners, no other mods? Either way you could get one of several tuning modules to flatten out the AF ratio. For ease of use on this configuration I would use the PCIII USB.
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my brother-in-law just had HD-Dude put the fcc14 cams in his bike & here's his dyno sheet. 1st run is a/c, Rinehart, and racetuner. Only difference on 2nd run is the cams and retune.
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my brother-in-law just had HD-Dude put the fcc14 cams in his bike & here's his dyno sheet. 1st run is a/c, Rinehart, and racetuner. Only difference on 2nd run is the cams and retune.
Tells a story regarding mid range torque, doesn't it...
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my brother-in-law just had HD-Dude put the fcc14 cams in his bike & here's his dyno sheet. 1st run is a/c, Rinehart, and racetuner. Only difference on 2nd run is the cams and retune.
Did they give you a sheet which shows the elapsed time for the curves ?
B B
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Forget to attach the dyno sheet. DOH!!!
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Forget to attach the dyno sheet. DOH!!!
That's a great chart. What the hell are you running? Hoist! 8)
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Forget to attach the dyno sheet. DOH!!!
Chunngle, here you go. One more time in a format the site will display :2vrolijk_21: .
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That's a great chart. What the hell are you running? Hoist! 8)
Having a case of the dumbasses tonight. This was meant as a reply for another post that had all the info with it. Not quite what I was expecting but has a good torque curve and spools up real fast. Fun factor is there.
124 Rev Perf
R&R Billet Heads
62H R&R Gear Drive Cams
11:1
D&D Fatcat
SERT
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Having a case of the dumbasses tonight. This was meant as a reply for another post that had all the info with it. Not quite what I was expecting but has a good torque curve and spools up real fast. Fun factor is there.
124 Rev Perf
R&R Billet Heads
62H R&R Gear Drive Cams
11:1
D&D Fatcat
SERT
Still really sweet man. That must be fun to ride! Enjoy it! :2vrolijk_21: Hoist! 8)
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Still really sweet man. That must be fun to ride! Enjoy it! :2vrolijk_21: Hoist! 8)
Just think man, if it weren't for the warranty you could have that too :huepfenlol2: .
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Just think man, if it weren't for the warranty you could have that too :huepfenlol2: .
It's only a matter of time Don! ;D Hoist! 8)
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It's only a matter of time Don! ;D Hoist! 8)
Just an easy 18 looooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggg months. No sweat :'(
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Just an easy 18 looooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggg months. No sweat :'(
You Evil Bastard! :devil: ;D Hoist! 8)
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You Evil Bastard! :devil: ;D Hoist! 8)
puttputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputt ???
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puttputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputtputt ???
;D ;D ;D :sauer021: ;D Hoist! 8)
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You kids play nice now :huepfenjump3:
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;D ;D ;D :sauer021: ;D Hoist! 8)
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You kids play nice now :huepfenjump3:
Just jealous of your numbers chungle! ;) Hoist! 8)
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It is a lot of fun to ride!! Just did a Memorial weekend ride through Northern Az and it pulled the hills like a tractor. I am however going to have to find someone that has good deals on Metzler tires as I think i am going to be lucky to get 6000 miles on one now. Either that or stay out of the throttle. Hey anybody know a good tire guy?,,,,,lol.
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It is a lot of fun to ride!! Just did a Memorial weekend ride through Northern Az and it pulled the hills like a tractor. I am however going to have to find someone that has good deals on Metzler tires as I think i am going to be lucky to get 6000 miles on one now. Either that or stay out of the throttle. Hey anybody know a good tire guy?,,,,,lol.
Oh no, anything but that!!! :nixweiss: Somebody please find this guy some Metzlers! ;) Hoist! 8)
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Attached is my dyno after having the old model freedom pipes and performance package installed and dyno'd this past weekend. Otherwise the motor is bone stock. Hopefully I can go through the motor next winter. I ran into WASEEG(Dan) and the wife on Saturday in Reno at Freedom. He said the Freedom products were very good but he had his bike re-dyno'd at RC Cycles and got a little better tune than he did from Freedom.
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Attached is my dyno after having the old model freedom pipes and performance package installed and dyno'd this past weekend. Otherwise the motor is bone stock. Hopefully I can go through the motor next winter. I ran into WASEEG(Dan) and the wife on Saturday in Reno at Freedom. He said the Freedom products were very good but he had his bike re-dyno'd at RC Cycles and got a little better tune than he did from Freedom.
Hey Randy......haven't saw you on here in awhile. Haven't saw you running around Sacramento, either (although I haven't been there much lately, myself).
RC cycles is where most of us here in Nor Cal have had our bikes dynoed.
You're probably liking that bike a whole lot more right now, huh.
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Hey JC! Good to hear from you! Hope things are going well for you! Yeah the SEEGS running good for now! Yes RC is where I had my 95" dynoed a few years back. Best on the west coast as far as I'm concerned. Ron Cairns knows his stuff. I got 120HP out of my 95" with his tune. I'll have RC do it eventually. I may run down to the Chili Contest in Locke tomorrow. Have a great weekend!
tntdse
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Hey JC! Good to hear from you! Hope things are going well for you! Yeah the SEEGS running good for now! Yes RC is where I had my 95" dynoed a few years back. Best on the west coast as far as I'm concerned. Ron Cairns knows his stuff. I got 120HP out of my 95" with his tune. I'll have RC do it eventually. I may run down to the Chili Contest in Locke tomorrow. Have a great weekend!
tntdse
Thanks for the heads up..........I did make it to the Chili Contest. It was a lot of fun, very entertaining.
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DARN JCZ I'M impressed with 120 H.P out of 95 C.I when I'M making barely a 100 on Tourqe and H.P but only have header, SERT, K&N, Trip. Plat. plugs, 8mm wires and I have a 06 scremin eagle 103", Can this Man help my bike get any more with his DYNO-TUNE? Or do I need Cam and other mods. too? I bet she is a runner at 120 H.P!! I think I'M doing good at a 100! Well take care JCZ!! PURPLE HAZE.
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120 out of a 95 takes cams, pistons, head work, etc. As for your 103, it'll take more than a dyno. Most of us are running either the Zippers or the Freedom cams which take us to about 105 HP/115 Lbs Torque. You want to get rid of the chain driven cam due to tensioner issues. If you want more than ~105/115, you'll have to do more work, doesn't matter who is tuning it...
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Nancy's 95" Lowrider has Tman heads, Tman 590 cams, the Tman CP pistons.
CR is 11 to 1. Screaming Eagle ignition along with a 42 Mikuni and a ProPipe.
Normally that C/R seems high but as I have preached,
and stood on my ---> :soapbox: it is
"ALL ABOUT THE COMBINATION"
This combination yields 126 H/P and 121 ft. lbs. of Torque.
Just the look on her face as she dust those fast Harley guys (and even better is watching her dust the guys who think their Harleys are fast) is worth it all.
:2vrolijk_21:
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Nancy's 95" Lowrider has Tman heads, Tman 590 cams, the Tman CP pistons.
CR is 11 to 1. Screaming Eagle ignition along with a 42 Mikuni and a ProPipe.
Normally that C/R seems high but as I have preached,
and stood on my ---> :soapbox: it is
"ALL ABOUT THE COMBINATION"
This combination yields 126 H/P and 121 ft. lbs. of Torque.
Just the look on her face as she dust those fast Harley guys (and even better is watching her dust the guys who think their Harleys are fast) is worth it all.
:2vrolijk_21:
Bet it doesn't ping just crusing down the road under light acceleration either :huepfenlol2: .
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WELL sorry for stinking up your site by having a stock C.V.O. but I like it the why it is just misunderstood about the guy doing the tune so I will get back in my low power group, Thanks any way, PURPLE HAZE.
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WELL sorry for stinking up your site by having a stock C.V.O. but I like it the why it is just misunderstood about the guy doing the tune so I will get back in my low power group, Thanks any way, PURPLE HAZE.
Just read these last few posts for the first time. Purple Haze stock is fine......it's still a fine running motor, even stock.
You don't have to do any work to it at all if you're not so inclined. If you want to leave the motor itself alone, but would like more HP and TQ then you might just go with the high flow air cleaner and a performance exhaust. That way, you still have the reliability and a little more performance. They to get away from the cam chain tensioner issues (they will fail.......it's just a matter of "when"), several people make a "bolt in" gear driven cams so that you still don't have to remove the heads or open the motor up. Just some things to think about, but again, if you chose to keep it totally stock......that's just fine, too. With the air cleaner and exhaust, you will notice that you're motor runs a little cooler.
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Just read these last few posts for the first time. Purple Haze stock is fine......it's still a fine running motor, even stock.
You don't have to do any work to it at all if you're not so inclined. If you want to leave the motor itself alone, but would like more HP and TQ then you might just go with the high flow air cleaner and a performance exhaust. That way, you still have the reliability and a little more performance. They to get away from the cam chain tensioner issues (they will fail.......it's just a matter of "when"), several people make a "bolt in" gear driven cams so that you still don't have to remove the heads or open the motor up. Just some things to think about, but again, if you chose to keep it totally stock......that's just fine, too. With the air cleaner and exhaust, you will notice that you're motor runs a little cooler.
Don't disagree, JC, but, most everything on our scooters will fail eventually.......I just looked at my tensioners (45Kmiles) and they were not worn enough to replace while in there. At this wear rate, they'll go as long as a number of items in this motor. :) har! :drink: spyder
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Don't disagree, JC, but, most everything on our scooters will fail eventually.......I just looked at my tensioners (45Kmiles) and they were not worn enough to replace while in there. At this wear rate, they'll go as long as a number of items in this motor. :) har! :drink: spyder
Let me ask this question.
Did I read above you went 45K and your tensioners were OK?
WOW
:2vrolijk_21:
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Let me ask this question.
Did I read above you went 45K and your tensioners were OK?
WOW
:2vrolijk_21:
yep, Chip, and Rabbi pulled two different twin cams down to check the tensioners with over 20K on ea. and they were both just fine. I think there must have been a bad bunch of chains that had sharp edges that was prematurely cutting the ceramic tensioners...........either that or it has something to do with a riding style or something. Rab said that he felt of a chain in Tilley's that they were replacing the tensioners on with very low mileage and it was razor sharp. I felt mine and it was smooth as a baby's butt. I'm keeping that smooth son or a gun right where it is. 46K now and heading out for a trip to Memphis should put a few more on it. :D har! spyder
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Whadda ya mean Spyder...........I ride very smooth and very, VERY EASY! :2vrolijk_21: :huepfenlol2:
You might have a point there, it could have to do with the chains more than the tensioners. Whatever it was, it's something that I just don't have to worry about anymore. And at 104 HP and 116 TQ, I'm happy with my bike's performance and the fact that it's still stock enough to be reliable.
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103 Engine
SE A/C & Ness Element
07 Rinehart 2 1/4 Baffle
HorsePower Inc 53mm Stock Injectors
10.5 to 1 Flat top Pistons
Brad Yuill ~ YB13 Gear Drive Cam
SE Lifters
HD HTCC CNC Heads
SE 6 Speed Trans
SERT
Tuned by Rob @ RoadHog Dyno (normally at Pub 44 during Bikeweeks)
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103 Engine
SE A/C & Ness Element
07 Rinehart 2 1/4 Baffle
HorsePower Inc 53mm Stock Injectors
10.5 to 1 Flat top Pistons
Brad Yuill ~ YB13 Gear Drive Cam
SE Lifters
HD HTCC CNC Heads
SE 6 Speed Trans
SERT
Tuned by Rob @ RoadHog Dyno (normally at Pub 44 during Bikeweeks)
Not sure if your happy with these numbers but where's the low end torque?
My stock (cept for breather and pipe and tuning) 7 year old SERG makes 84 ft. lbs. of torque at 3000 RPM.
Best that I can tell your chart shows 56T @ 3000.
My advice.
Don't be rolling on with anybody with those #'s.
Peak #'s are great if that's where you ride.
But I don't think that's your style.
Good luck!
:2vrolijk_21:
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Not sure if your happy with these numbers but where's the low end torque?
My stock (cept for breather and pipe and tuning) 7 year old SERG makes 84 ft. lbs. of torque at 3000 RPM.
Best that I can tell your chart shows 56T @ 3000.
My advice.
Don't be rolling on with anybody with those #'s.
Peak #'s are great if that's where you ride.
But I don't think that's your style.
Good luck!
:2vrolijk_21:
:huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: I thought you wanna know why don't the HP/TQ graphs cross at 5250? :nixweiss: :huepfenlol2: :oops:
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:huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: I thought you wanna know why don't the HP/TQ graphs cross at 5250? :nixweiss: :huepfenlol2: :oops:
:devil: :devil: :devil: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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:huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: I thought you wanna know why don't the HP/TQ graphs cross at 5250? :nixweiss: :huepfenlol2: :oops:
Cute Brian!
But true!
I have beat that---> :beatdeadhorse: with Harry before in the past.
Voodoo dyno sheets that are not dated, show no air-fuel charts and show #'s that don't cross at 5250 will I'm sure be explained away. For example, the moons over Florida were not in conjunction with the dyno parked in the pumpkin patch so the readings are skewed to reflect the rising tides. Or something like that!
I guess.
:nixweiss:
Good point, thanks for bringing that up B!
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:devil: :devil: :devil: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
dOOd
I hope you noticed that I didn't even mention about whether the pistons were balanced?
Can you imagine the storm that question would have raised?
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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Cute Brian!
But true!
I have beat that---> :beatdeadhorse: with Harry before in the past.
Voodoo dyno sheets that are not dated, show no air-fuel charts and show #'s that don't cross at 5250 will I'm sure be explained away. For example, the moons over Florida were not in conjunction with the dyno parked in the pumpkin patch so the readings are skewed to reflect the rising tides. Or something like that!
I guess.
:nixweiss:
Good point, thanks for bringing that up B!
I noticed that one, too. He'd be all over everyone else's chit for doing that, but I guess if he does it, it's OK?!? :nixweiss: C'mon, Harry. :confused5:
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Chip,
84 tq at start and 100 tq at 3000 rpm and it holds that plus all the way across from 3000 - 6200. Didn't pull and A/F on the 5th gear pull as Rob had already started to disconnect things when I asked him if he would do a 5th gear pull for me. Here is the A/f on the 4th gear and put it with the 5th gear pull. As picky as I am would you actually think I would settle for a half A$$ tune? Sorry Chip the other dyno sheet did show the lines crossing below 5250 because force scale wasn't used big deal, the numbers are the numbers, but to stop the bitchin and whining I fixed it to read the way you would like to see it.
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5th gear pull. Is the bike a 6-speed?
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103 Engine
SE A/C & Ness Element
07 Rinehart 2 1/4 Baffle
HorsePower Inc 53mm Stock Injectors
10.5 to 1 Flat top Pistons
Brad Yuill ~ YB13 Gear Drive Cam
SE Lifters
HD HTCC CNC Heads
SE 6 Speed Trans
SERT
Tuned by Rob @ RoadHog Dyno (normally at Pub 44 during Bikeweeks)
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Thanks, I was too busy going cross-eyed trying to see if the lines intersected at 5250. :huepfenlol2:
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5th gear pull. Is the bike a 6-speed?
Whether or not you've got an overdrive gear would make no difference to comparing a fifth gear pull to everyone else's fourth gear pull.....
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103T,
Here is the dyno sheet from my Road King tuned by Chuck at Cycle Rama
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Timed run as well
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Whatever Harry!
The ol bait and switch it appears to me,
"« Last Edit: Today at 09:58:22 PM by Unbalanced »"
So, at least it wasn't the tides.
That salt air is rough on the bikes!
Take care Harry!
:2vrolijk_21:
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Whether or not you've got an overdrive gear would make no difference to comparing a fifth gear pull to everyone else's fourth gear pull.....
So, are you saying that a 5th gear pull in a 6-speed bike is or is not the same as a 4th gear pull in a 5-speed bike? A dyno is always going to show higher numbers with a 5th gear pull on a bike with a 5-speed transmission.
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So, are you saying that a 5th gear pull in a 6-speed bike is or is not the same as a 4th gear pull in a 5-speed bike? A dyno is always going to show higher numbers with a 5th gear pull on a bike with a 5-speed transmission.
Unless you're talking about the Baker six speed no. Compare gear ratios not the assigned number.
5th gear on a (Harley) six speed is 1:1. 4th gear on any five speed bike is not 1:1. So it's not an even comparison.
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Brian,
Typically this is how it is done for best numbers.
5 speed the best number pull is in 4th gear
6 speed the best number pull is in 5th gear
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Whatever Harry!
The ol bait and switch it appears to me,
"« Last Edit: Today at 09:58:22 PM by Unbalanced »"
So, at least it wasn't the tides.
That salt air is rough on the bikes!
Take care Harry!
:2vrolijk_21:
Chip,
You crack me up the numbers are the numbers, but since you like them pretty I made them pretty. The numbers didnt change only the intersection changed.
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Brian,
Typically this is how it is done for best numbers.
5 speed the best number pull is in 4th gear
6 speed the best number pull is in 5th gear
With the difference being best numbers; not even comparison. Or at least as even as they can be.
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Unless you're talking about the Baker six speed no. Compare gear ratios not the assigned number.
5th gear on a (Harley) six speed is 1:1. 4th gear on any five speed bike is not 1:1. So it's not an even comparison.
Yeah, so the point I'm trying to make is . . . . . aren't dyno runs typically done in 4th gear, which is >1:1? Harry is touting the numbers in the one hundred teens, but the run in 4th gear produced numbers in the 105/107 range (going from memory here). Aren't the 4th gear runs a better comparison to other posted results here on the site?
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Aren't the 4th gear runs a better comparison to other posted results here on the site?
Yes. That's the norm for comparison and the numbers considered "legit." There are always variances of course. But running in taller gears is generally considered fudging the numbers a bit. It's all curb racing anyway. So big whoop. But going up a gear is the all too common easy way to bring the numbers up a bit that often isn't noticed or known.
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Don,
Correct even as they can be your right it is curb side racing that is why timed dyno's in seconds tell you a little bit more of the story. On the Roadking that has the Baker 6 speed with and .80 6th gear and has the R2 gearing as well so tall first and 2nd. Michelle's 6 speed is Screaming Eagle with I believe it is .86 6th gear.
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Yes. That's the norm for comparison and the numbers considered "legit." There are always variances of course. But running in taller gears is generally considered fudging the numbers a bit. It's all curb racing anyway. So big whoop. But going up a gear is the all too common easy way to bring the numbers up a bit that often isn't noticed or known.
I gotta get better at getting my point across. :huepfenlol2: That's where I was at about a dozen posts ago. :nixweiss: ;D
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Don,
Correct even as they can be that is why most do the pulls in best gear other than the top gear whether it be 5th or 6th. On the Roadking that has the Baker 6 speed with and .80 6th gear and has the R2 gearing as well so tall first and 2nd. Michelle's 6 speed is Screaming Eagle with I believe it is .86 6th gear.
Of course Harry. There are so darned many variances that it's always just curb racing. Always only for fun anyway. If anyone really lives off dyno sheets they also probably spend a lot of time with the daytime soap operas as well. The Bakers make a difference of course because they're geared entirely differnetly. 1:1 in 6th with the sprocket change compensating even further. Get things like that in the mix and there is no such thing as an absolutely even comparison. So you just go with and have fun. Don't fudge too much. After all, the butt-meter is all that really matters anyway. Dyno runs are diagnostic. More than that is just sport.
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Yeah, so the point I'm trying to make is . . . . . aren't dyno runs typically done in 4th gear, which is >1:1? Harry is touting the numbers in the one hundred teens, but the run in 4th gear produced numbers in the 105/107 range (going from memory here). Aren't the 4th gear runs a better comparison to other posted results here on the site?
Brian,
Doubtful as a fair comparison to other dyno sheets here I would bet most of them are done in 4 on the 5 speeds and 5th on the 6 speeds. I would venture to say that if not all the vast majority of the 07 Ultra dyno sheets were done in 5th gear based on the numbers.
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Brian,
Doubtful as a fair comparison to other dyno sheets here I would bet most of them are done in 4 on the 5 speeds and 5th on the 6 speeds. I would venture to say that if not all the vast majority of the 07 Ultra dyno sheets were done in 5th gear based on the numbers.
More than that, a lot of riders never know. The guys running the dynos, especially the mobile units at the rallies, want to make their customers happy. So they'll tell people about how good the numbers were and get more guys to come pay and spin. The bike owner doesn't know how it's done. He doesn't know what the dyno operator is doing. And quite frankly he doesn't care. He comes away with his pretty piece of paper and he's just oh so (uninformed and) happy.
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Of course Harry. There are so darned many variances that it's always just curb racing. Always only for fun anyway. If anyone really lives off dyno sheets they also probably spend a lot of time with the daytime soap operas as well. The Bakers make a difference of course because they're geared entirely differnetly. 1:1 in 6th with the sprocket change compensating even further. Get things like that in the mix and there is no such thing as an absolutely even comparison. So you just go with and have fun. Don't fudge too much. After all, the butt-meter is all that really matters anyway. Dyno runs are diagnostic. More than that is just sport.
There is one other consideration that you have when running the baker tranny and that is there is a cost of hp to drive it over say a HD tranny. I was talking with Mike Stegmann of Latus last week about this and it is a percentage he said an additional 4 to 6 percent you give up to drive that transmission. Butt dyno is good, timed is good to see how quickly it spools up and gets there and finally there is the track
The dyno sheet for me allows me to see what combinations yield when comparing one build to another or headwork / cam combos.
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The thing to remember about it all is that it's harmless. It really means nothing. It's just fun and something to chew on over beers in the garage or in places like this.
Sure, a few will take it oh so seriously. They'll try to sneak on unfair comparisons that are unfair to a degree more than friendly curb racing should expect. But those are, more often than not, the guys whose engines really only run good at the curb anyway. So, once again, big whoop :drink: .
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The dyno sheet for me allows me to see what combinations yield when comparing one build to another or headwork / cam combos.
Exactly. They are diagnostic. But comparing machine to machine is a chimera. Comparing operator to operator is even a question. And don't even begin to count on execution methods. Gears, tire pressures, etc etc etc. It's all smoke and mirrors. Diagnostic within a tuning session; absolutely. Diagnostic for general trends of a combination that is working well; sure. Really giving you something to compare against someone else on another day in another environment with another machine with another operator... hehehehehe. Not if you're honest anyway.
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Exactly. They are diagnostic. But comparing machine to machine is a chimera. Comparing operator to operator is even a question. And don't even begin to count on execution methods. Gears, tire pressures, etc etc etc. It's all smoke and mirrors. Diagnostic within a tuning session; absolutely. Diagnostic for general trends of a combination that is working well; sure. Really giving you something to compare against someone else on another day in another environment with another machine with another operator... hehehehehe. Not if you're honest anyway.
My target for this build was 115/110, but really had no idea if the heads / flat top piston / yb13 cam would actually produce what I was after. By removing the ramps on the HTCC's it allowed me to use the flat top 10.5 to 1 piston. The porter didn't do anything else to these heads. Thus far the bike runs smooth with the freedom cam and the bike blows away Rhino's ultra in side by side testing, so the mission was accomplished :)
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Well it does mean something!
To the individual that understands what the lines mean it's everything!
For example,
Take the dyno sheet below and note the following,
1) Is it big #'s? NOPE! (hello it's a stock 95")
2) There is a name on it so in all probability it isn't one copied from another bike.
3) There is a date on it.
4) There is even a bike listed. (S/E Bagger)
5) Now for the good stuff, it shows a hell of a dip in torque in a place where you need it most. So what does that mean? Good question! It's a stock bike with breather, pipe and tune. Why such a dip? Some dumba$$ put a competition baffle on a touring bike. Can you say no torque? And FYI, new baffle on the way and then back to the dyno.
6) The lines cross at 5250 like they should. Why would anyone post a sheet where the lines didn't cross on this site is beyond me.
7) When the new baffle is installed the PEAK H/P and Torque will come down, but bottom and midrange H/P and T will go up.
That Don is why these sheets mean what they mean to me. Bragging right's? Who is going to brag about 90 H/P and 100 ft lbs. of Torque. While others are bragging I'm going to be out riding my finely tuned low horsepower fun machine!
Hope you feel better!
:2vrolijk_21:
Actually Chip to a man that knows how to read a dyno sheet the lines mean nothing the numbers are the numbers. As Dennis pointed out some dyno's done even have forced scaling so what would you say to that guy? If you doubt the numbers all you have to do is plug the numbers into the equation and you can verify if they are good or not. As far as the dip goes that is important because it pointed you towards a problem You are right a good tune and a smooth running machine is what it is all about. A few people on this site have ridden my bikes and that is something I strive for with each build / combination is that the bikes run smooth and are fun to ride and of course the other reason is to make sure Ronnie gets spanked regularly hehe.
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Here is the final dyno from my recent build by John Sachs. He put on Wild Things Heads, T46 g WT cam, 57 mm Throttle body and the Hi five A/C. I had D&D fat cats and Mike Roland came down and gave a dyno workshop using my bike to demo the SERT. I got a real education on the SERT and Mike convinced me that it really is the device of choice to tune these bikes. Rides like a bandit now and lopes along at 80 at essentially no throttle so maybe I will get some milage out of it as well?
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Forgot the cranking pressure was 175 indicating a relatively low compression build as I requested to avoid to much heat down here in the florida sunshine. I really could not be happier with the project. John Sachs did a great job cleaning up the heads and putting the build together using my original pistons. Everyone have fun and ride safe. JP :bananarock: :bananarock: :bananarock: :bananarock:
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Forgot the cranking pressure was 175 indicating a relatively low compression build as I requested to avoid to much heat down here in the florida sunshine. I really could not be happier with the project. John Sachs did a great job cleaning up the heads and putting the build together using my original pistons. Everyone have fun and ride safe. JP :bananarock: :bananarock: :bananarock: :bananarock:
Damn fine numbers, and curves! :2vrolijk_21: Is that thing still a 103? :o
Hoist! 8)
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Here is the final dyno from my recent build by John Sachs. He put on Wild Things Heads, T46 g WT cam, 57 mm Throttle body and the Hi five A/C. I had D&D fat cats and Mike Roland came down and gave a dyno workshop using my bike to demo the SERT. I got a real education on the SERT and Mike convinced me that it really is the device of choice to tune these bikes. Rides like a bandit now and lopes along at 80 at essentially no throttle so maybe I will get some milage out of it as well?
Hey Pappy2.......sounds great! :2vrolijk_21: Let us know when you break it in what kind of mileage you are getting. thanks. spyder
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I got a response from one of our members that the TQ would have been higher if the throttle body was a bit smaller IE 54 mm or 50 mm. John Sachs wanted me to post that concept here because he and Mike Roland feel stongly that the larger throttle body will not have a negative effect on anything. It is still a 103 build and runs like a banshee.
I will post the MPG when I get some highway miles on it. Right now the throttle is spending some quality wide open time as you can understand. I see a rear tire in my near future even though the current one only has about 1k miles on it. :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :P
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;D
Never too big.
Realize that a throttle body DOESN'T rely on velocity to draw fuel out of a float bowl like a carb does.
The MoCo offers a 58 mm.TB in '08.I wouldn't hesitate to use it on any of my 103" builds.
MORE TORQUE ------------ I could have put more compression in Pappy's motor.Don't forget,he has a MILD BUILD !
Also the dyno pull is in 4th gear SAE.Add roughly 7 hp. and 7 ft.lbs. for 5th gear STD.
John
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;D
Never too big.
Realize that a throttle body DOESN'T rely on velocity to draw fuel out of a float bowl like a carb does.
The MoCo offers a 58 mm.TB in '08.I wouldn't hesitate to use it on any of my 103" builds.
MORE TORQUE ------------ I could have put more compression in Pappy's motor.Don't forget,he has a MILD BUILD !
Also the dyno pull is in 4th gear SAE.Add roughly 7 hp. and 7 ft.lbs. for 5th gear STD.
John
Thanks guys for that. I found that when Wes designed my 110 top end, he selected a 58mm for it. We Dyno'd it and TQ started low, and had to climb to 3 grand. This is with Perf 2:1 Fatcats. We had him send us the 62mm for testing. The bottom end picked right up. We gained virtually nothing up on top. But a really great flat TQ curve now, starting at 100 ft-lbs at 2 grand, peaks at 126, and never drops below 100! The 62mm stayed on the bike! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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And it apparently made a believer out of Wes also, because his recommendation to me for a very similiar build was to use the HPI 62mm...which I did!
Can't wait to get it to the dyno for tuning! Darn northern winter! :(
Scott
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And it apparently made a believer out of Wes also, because his recommendation to me for a very similiar build was to use the HPI 62mm...which I did!
Can't wait to get it to the dyno for tuning! Darn northern winter! :(
Scott
Scott, how does it run with my map?
Hoist! 8)
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Scott, how does it run with my map?
Hoist! 8)
Howie,
Well, seeing that my bike hasn't left my lift yet, so far so good!! :2vrolijk_21:
It is on the lift with a cover on it until the weather breaks. But - it starts instantly, idles well - very smooth at about 1k - (obviously is rich) - and it is currently running with my Rinehart True Duals vs. the D & D your bike was dyno'd with...
So, it runs fine for my current purposes. Better rich then lean at this point. Before I go for a tune, I will swap out the Rineharts with D & D's.
Scott
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Pappy it looks like you got yourself a good build and a good looking dyno sheet.
I did want to go to a 54mm on my 113 build. Zippers thought different. I also have Red Shift 657 cams. They were supposed to be Red Shift 647's which Zippers also thought different. I have a D&D fat kat with the performance baffle. Zippers wanted me to install a Borzillia 2 into 1 but I did not. The numbers were still good as the bike has not been tuned as of yet. I did get the A/F ratio set but no timing changes as of yet. The bike did spin in 5th gear with a 6 speed trannie at 126 square.
The reason Zippers kept the less agressive cam's and the smaller throttle body was for everyday driving. I would of liked to of have the more agressive build but I am very happy with the bike the way it is. It also is a very mild build for the street.
I would of liked to seen the numbers with a 54mm throttle body. If it would help my already good TQ curve.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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You guys might make a believer out of me. I would love to see the numbers my bike would have with a 62mm throttle body.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Pappy it looks like you got yourself a good build and a good looking dyno sheet.
I did want to go to a 54mm on my 113 build. Zippers thought different. I also have Red Shift 657 cams. They were supposed to be Red Shift 647's which Zippers also thought different. I have a D&D fat kat with the performance baffle. Zippers wanted me to install a Borzillia 2 into 1 but I did not. The numbers were still good as the bike has not been tuned as of yet. I did get the A/F ratio set but no timing changes as of yet. The bike did spin in 5th gear with a 6 speed trannie at 126 square.
The reason Zippers kept the less agressive cam's and the smaller throttle body was for everyday driving. I would of liked to of have the more agressive build but I am very happy with the bike the way it is. It also is a very mild build for the street.
I would of liked to seen the numbers with a 54mm throttle body. If it would help my already good TQ curve.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
Hey Dawg, was their thinking due to more engine longevity or better gas mileage? :nixweiss: spyder
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Spy I think it was both. Like I said I am happy with the build.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Hey Dawg, was their thinking due to more engine longevity or better gas mileage? :nixweiss: spyder
Wes indicated to me that properly tuned I should see around 35 mpg...which is fine in my world...
Scott
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It is nice to see multiple people happy with their builds. I really don't understand all the dynamics of motor building but I have great faith in John Sachs and Mike Roland, especially after they pull this kind of power out of a fairly mild 103 build. DC, get your buddies at Zippers to put a big TB on the thing for grins and see what you get. I also think the tuning thing is underrated now that I have seen the process and the results, I would get a race tuner and get that done ASAP. If they will get the thundermax tuned for you then that might be just as good I just don't know who can do it outside their shop. Peace, Love and Happiness to all. Gotta go rip up some more tire compound. Current temp 79 sunny here in SF....... :bananarock: :bananarock: :bananarock: :huepfenjump3:
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OK MPG is around 35 similar to what I got before maybe a 1 or 2 better but not much. Remember I had the zippers throttle body/ecm combo on there with the fat cats and it ran really good before too. I really have a hard time not hitting it even a little when cruising the thing is a hoot to ride. Have not been able to ride for almost a month now (little health bobble, not riding related) so the MPG is from my first real trip across the state 4 weeks ago. Good luck to everybody as the riding season starts up north and be safe. PLH JP :bananarock: :bananarock: :bananarock:
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Dyno sheet is below for my 08 SEUC. I commented on the lack of A:F chart, and the tuner told me that he can’t do it the way he has it set up. He can give me all of the A:F charts from all the runs, but not with this one. Thanks to GH and Hoist! for all the tips on how to get a good tune out of my dealer. Runs really, really well -- lots of power. More than I would have believed without doing any further work, and the tuner says that their Dyno is about 5hp less than the one that he worked on before, using his scoot as a baseline. Not sure the number really means much unless the Dyno is calibrated before and after a run, but that’s another discussion.
I went with the D & D Fat Cats, quiet baffle, SERT, AC and the ghost pipe to make it all look even. I believe I got the wrong ghost pipe though. The inside fake baffle doesn't match and it's about 6" inside the pipe rather than out to the end like the real one. I'll probably take that up with the dealer.
On my first ride with it I went about 110 miles and could tell it was running pretty rich just going down the highway. It was fine on acceleration but if I didn't have all the vents adjusted to blow at me I could smell exhaust and it ran HOT. I don’t have a temp gauge to compare with. Proof was in the MPG - only got 28, and this was down from 34. I stopped back in to the dealer and he had adjusted the closed loop settings to 14:1. I got there 15 minutes before closing and he did it right away, staying after until it was done. I do like this dealer. He raised that back up to 14.7:1 and increased the closed loop baseline pressure to 75 from 70 and told me to ride it a while and bring it back if I noticed any more problems. I haven't noticed any performance loss with this, but the MPG is now 36, which still includes tons of fun acceleration. Needs to go back for a slight adjustment around 2100 RPM I get a little backfire on deceleration. Not bad but enough to not be right.
Thanks to this site, I have the right pipes for my riding style and got a good tune even though I don’t have all the answers. Goes to prove that it’s not what you know but who you know.
Dave
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What do you guys have against posting your ET sheets.
Is it because these numbers take 6 seconds to develop ?
B B
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This was all I got. If I'd have gotten anything else, I would have posted it too.
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What do you guys have against posting your ET sheets.
Is it because these numbers take 6 seconds to develop ?
B B
BB, looks like you are :beatdeadhorse: on this one...I'd like to see one of those ET sheets though, just to see what one looks like. Of all the dyno tunes that I've had done, I've never seen one...or asked for one for that matter. I'm having a little motor work done now, so when I get it retuned later this summer I'll ask the tuner for an ET sheet so that I'll know what it is.
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BB, looks like you are :beatdeadhorse: on this one...I'd like to see one of those ET sheets though, just to see what one looks like. Of all the dyno tunes that I've had done, I've never seen one...or asked for one for that matter. I'm having a little motor work done now, so when I get it retuned later this summer I'll ask the tuner for an ET sheet so that I'll know what it is.
I don't understand why nobody has em. They are part of the software for the dyno. No idea why, but most dyno shops never give em to you. I had to go back to the dyno shop that tuned Bubba_T's Mackie rebuild recently and they pulled his up and printed it. So anyway, What it is, is a graph that shows tourque and horsepower curves with the time in seconds shown on the bottom from the rolling start to when the motor is shut down. I've said this before, but in case you've missed it, a motor that hits say 110 TQ and 110 hp at 3 seconds into the run will destroy one that hits say 130 / 130 in 6 seconds. By the time the big number bike hit's his peak, small number bike is already 100 yds in front of him. That's pretty much all she wrote in a drag race or stop light to stop light out on the street. This is why some people on the site only "race" from a 60mph rolling start. They're running down the highway in 3rd gear at 60 with their revs up and into their power band so then they win. From a standing start they can't. It also explains why a guy with lesser numbers wins a 5th gear roll on. Long story short, is I counsel my friends to look
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Yeah, I understand what it is, and I'll ask for one at my next dyno tune. You've got my curiosity up now...
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Sounds like it is good information to make comparisons. The TQ curve was my biggest priority -- and it looks just like I hoped it would. Best TQ is way down low, and I can really feel it. Thanks for the additional info!
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BB, looks like you are :beatdeadhorse: on this one...I'd like to see one of those ET sheets though, just to see what one looks like. Of all the dyno tunes that I've had done, I've never seen one...or asked for one for that matter. I'm having a little motor work done now, so when I get it retuned later this summer I'll ask the tuner for an ET sheet so that I'll know what it is.
SCRM-R
Here is an example of the ET Sheets you were asking about above. Top one done in RPM and the bottom one done in Time (sec's). What you look at is in the top dyno sheet is pick a point of Torque or HP then go to the bottom one and see how long it took you to get there. Look at 120 torque in the top one then go to the bottom one and look at the timed one to see how long it took to get there.
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Timed Run
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So that tells us what? That it took 6.2 seconds to get from 2,400 RPM to 6,500 RPM? What is the true relevance of this? That you can go from 40 MPH to 130 MPH in 6.2 seconds?
It seems that the same information also exists in analysis of the HP vs TQ, only that it takes analysis to get the information, not just looking at the peak HP, TQ and ET.
To me, it tells me I'd love to ride that RK!!!
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So that tells us what? That it took 6.2 seconds to get from 2,400 RPM to 6,500 RPM? What is the true relevance of this? That you can go from 40 MPH to 130 MPH in 6.2 seconds?
It seems that the same information also exists in analysis of the HP vs TQ, only that it takes analysis to get the information, not just looking at the peak HP, TQ and ET.
To me, it tells me I'd love to ride that RK!!!
It's not how much time it takes to get to a particular RPM, it's how much TQ and HP it's producing at that time and RPM. If I'm in my power band running hard and you're still climbing to get to yours, you're looking at my tailights real quick. I'm not gonna kick this around any more. Either you get it or you don't. The guys that get it are the ones that build the bikes that kick a$$ on the street. The ones that don't are the one's riding around with dyno sheets in their saddlebags so they can show their buddies what a bada$$ bike they've got - - - - - on paper.
That's it, I'm done. UNBALANCED can pick up this argument now. He gets it, ask anyone who's raced him, he gets it real good
B B
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Please don't get me wrong -- I do understand what you're talking about. What I'm trying to say is that the time factor on the dyno is not as relavent as the HP and TQ, factored with weight, wind and rolling resistance will give the same answer but in a different way. It's simple physics.
We're heading for the same destination, but from different directions. We'll all get there, and you'll probably be first.
Now lets go ridin!
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Please don't get me wrong -- I do understand what you're talking about. What I'm trying to say is that the time factor on the dyno is not as relavent as the HP and TQ, factored with weight, wind and rolling resistance will give the same answer but in a different way. It's simple physics.
We're heading for the same destination, but from different directions. We'll all get there, and you'll probably be first.
Now lets go ridin!
If I'm going faster, quicker, I'm gonna feed you exhaust fumes. Physics be damned
B B
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Guys,
I know their is a place for Dyno Runs in the Ultra Topics, however could not find one for the Electra Glides and I know if this is in the wrong place one of the moderators will put it in its proper place.
Anyway some of the mods since I bought the bike, SBC (Vortec) Headwork, Dave Mackie 595 Cams, Zippers AC and SE Backing Plate )did not have a proper Zippers backing plate for the Zippers 50mm Throttle Body I have, next time) and Supertrapp Supermeg 2:1. Baker OD6 which was on the bike when I bought.
Rest of engine stock.
See the attached Dyno Run.
geezerglide
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Geezer here is the thread:
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=162.0 (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=162.0)
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Unbalanced,
Thanks,
geezerglide
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100 ft pds by around 2800 and 115ish overall on an internally stock 103 has to feel pretty good. Are you satisfied with it Geezer or you expect to do more. Am guessing it's the Mackie 598 cam. That's the same I'm using in the red SEEG here and really could not be more pleased with it. Hope you're enjoying it and that it's in the range of what you expected.
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100 ft pds by around 2800 and 115ish overall on an internally stock 103 has to feel pretty good. Are you satisfied with it Geezer or you expect to do more. Am guessing it's the Mackie 598 cam. That's the same I'm using in the red SEEG here and really could not be more pleased with it. Hope you're enjoying it and that it's in the range of what you expected.
2 Lane,
When I first say the numbers I thought i should have had a bit more. Also Darryl the tuner thought and I had noticed in the past as the accelerator was released the engine seemed to decrease in rpm levels, thinking sumping will address later. However on the 650 mile ride home from Vancouver to Calgary I was impressed. However I thought gas mileage was a down, however I remembered I was doing an average of 70 - 75 mph and occasional headwinds. I still may add the Zippers 50mm TB that I got from DCFIREMAN, just have to get a Zippers backing plate.
geezerglide.
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OK, I realize this probably isn't the proper place to post dyno sheets, but the dyno thread indicated there had not been a post in over 120 days, so I should post a new topic. Hopefully, one of the moderators will move this to the propoer location.
Anyway, attached is the dyno sheet from last spring after installing a SERT and having it dyno tuned. Engine is stock except for SERT and SE slash cut mufflers. I am thinking about changing cams to get a little more low to mid-range torque (I pull a bunkhouse trailer sometimes and would like a little more omph to get it moving). Dealer suggested S&S 570g, but based on some comments on other threads here, not sure if that's the right choice. Would appreciate any feedback on the 570's, or other thoughts on the topic.
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OK, I realize this probably isn't the proper place to post dyno sheets, but the dyno thread indicated there had not been a post in over 120 days, so I should post a new topic. Hopefully, one of the moderators will move this to the propoer location.
Anyway, attached is the dyno sheet from last spring after installing a SERT and having it dyno tuned. Engine is stock except for SERT and SE slash cut mufflers. I am thinking about changing cams to get a little more low to mid-range torque (I pull a bunkhouse trailer sometimes and would like a little more omph to get it moving). Dealer suggested S&S 570g, but based on some comments on other threads here, not sure if that's the right choice. Would appreciate any feedback on the 570's, or other thoughts on the topic.
Actually, it was/is the perfect place to post it......that's why this thread was started. You might want to go back to the first page of this thread and view pages of dyno sheets, mods, etc.
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Here's the "break in" dyno pulls for the new 124" build that Jim put together for me. This tune is from the Daytona Twin-Tek self tuning system on the bike. There's about 750 miles on the engine, and wide open throttle AFR is set to 12.5 for break in. 5th gear, 180 pound person sitting on the bike, air cleaner and lowers installed, etc.
I'm liking the torque on this build!
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Here's the "break in" dyno pulls for the new 124" build that Jim put together for me. This tune is from the Daytona Twin-Tek self tuning system on the bike. There's about 750 miles on the engine, and wide open throttle AFR is set to 12.5 for break in. 5th gear, 180 pound person sitting on the bike, air cleaner and lowers installed, etc.
I'm liking the torque on this build!
Damn Ernie that's great!
I'm thinking when I hit the lottery I will build Jim a shop of his dreams on the east coast so you, JC, AK, Vanamal will have to go to plan "B" on your work.
Great job Jim and Ernie as you know, torque like that kicks a$$!
Congrats!
:2vrolijk_21:
edited to add
Now tell us what was done to get 124 and those #'s!
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Revolution cylinders and Stage III heads, 625 TMan cam58 MM HPI throttle body, 6.2 injectors, timkin conversion, crank welded and balanced, Daytona Twin-Tek ECM with WEGO sensors, Freedom Elite D exhaust, Rivera Pro clutch, roller rockers. I wanted a bike that pulls everywhere in the curve, not a top end bike. I also wanted a bike that won't be too hard on parts and would last. I didn't want a fast grenade that I was taking apart each year. I now have what I was looking for! Doesn't matter which gear, which RPM, you twist the throttle and this bike pulls. I'm sure that if Jim and I wanted to play we could lean out 100% throttle AFR, pull the air cleaner cover, and have the Dyno Operator straddle the bike instead of sitting on it and the dyno would produce more HP, but who cares. The bike just keeps on pulling!
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Here's the "break in" dyno pulls for the new 124" build that Jim put together for me. This tune is from the Daytona Twin-Tek self tuning system on the bike. There's about 750 miles on the engine, and wide open throttle AFR is set to 12.5 for break in. 5th gear, 180 pound person sitting on the bike, air cleaner and lowers installed, etc.
I'm liking the torque on this build!
Ernie that looks great and bet it is fun to ride. :2vrolijk_21:
Thanks for confirming what I had thought for a long time..... O/B SEEG's are faster. :D ;D :D ;D
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Ernie that looks great and bet it is fun to ride. :2vrolijk_21:
Thanks for confirming what I had thought for a long time..... O/B SEEG's are faster. :D ;D :D ;D
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
How do you know it's in the O/B one? :nixweiss: har! spyder
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How do you know it's in the O/B one? :nixweiss: har! spyder
Because it's faster. ;) :D ;D :D ;D
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Because it's faster. ;) :D ;D :D ;D
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Well, since his other one is RED that means I don't have a dog in this scrap, so.......convience Don, Duane, and the other RED guys. :cherry: har! spyder
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Sorry, but it's the pumpkin not the cherry...
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Sorry, but it's the pumpkin not the cherry...
No need to apologize. ;) :D ;D :D ;D
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Well, since his other one is RED that means I don't have a dog in this scrap, so.......convience Don, Duane, and the other RED guys. :cherry: har! spyder
I think Ernie just proved the red ones aren't faster........that's been put to rest. :huepfenlol2:
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Well seeing as though i built this motor and know what's in it I do not know of any red ones that are faster.....YET :cherry:
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Well seeing as though i built this motor and know what's in it I do not know of any red ones that are faster.....YET :cherry:
Gee Guy's
But hate to have to say this but the only way the :pumpkin:'s are faster is if put a 124 or other monster engine in them, the cherrys are just faster on there own........ :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
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Gee Guy's
But hate to have to say this but the only way the :pumpkin:'s are faster is if put a 124 or other monster engine in them, the cherrys are just faster on there own........ :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
Don,
You won't get an argument from me. My cherry outran the pumpkin when they both had the same set up - YB13 cams, A/C, and exhaust.
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Don,
You won't get an argument from me. My cherry outran the pumpkin when they both had the same set up - YB13 cams, A/C, and exhaust.
:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :o
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Ernie, that looks like you got what you wanted, and nice work Jim. Now you have to watch out for the bugs cuz you will be smiling more while you ride it. :2vrolijk_21:
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Ernie,
That dyno sheet looks great, congrats. Great job Jim ! But i am gonna have to still say Reds are still faster :cherry:
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I think Ernie just proved the red ones aren't faster........that's been put to rest. :huepfenlol2:
JCZ I have a dog on both sides of this debate :) But all I can say is, it hasn't been put to rest quite yet. :cherry:
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JCZ I have a dog on both sides of this debate :) But all I can say is, it hasn't been put to rest quite yet. :cherry:
Come on Harry......I'm to damn old to tease. Show us! :2vrolijk_21:
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JCZ only thing I can tell you is I ain't teasin :)
I can't quite let the cat out of the bag, and I would hate to spoil the surprised.
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Oh.......I think I know you well enough to know that you're not teasin. Are you not done with it yet? :nixweiss:
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You're correct :) I am in the hurry up and wait mode. I am switching the Cherry over from Silver Cases to Black Cases adding a 6 speed and upgrading the motor just a tad bit :huepfenlol2:
Unfortunately, I am being held up by a vendor. My original goal was bikeweek, that didnt happen so my new goal is to have everything done before Leesburg bikefest. :nixweiss: We shall see.
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Good news bad news, motor is in, intake / vpc / air cleaner still MIA. /sigh
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Its christmas in April.
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Good news bad news, motor is in, intake / vpc / air cleaner still MIA. /sigh
Unbalanced is that the Jims 120 or 131.
The Jims 120 engine has great potential for more than the 120/120 they rate it at.
I had the Jims 120 in the 03 Pseudo SE Road Glide. With a little head work and the 57mm Kuraykyn TB c/w 6.63 injectors, S&S 640G cams. V&H PRO PIPE 2:1, rest of the engine stock. I was getting 131HP and 134TQ.
geezerglide
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Geezer,
I took the heads off the motor this morning and boxed them up off they went. The throttlebody and intake came in today hpi 58mm. Still waiting ont he air cleaner and vpc to arrive.
I remeber your cherry SE Roadglide hehe and the fun you had getting that tuned. Hopefully I will not have as much trouble as you did, unfortunately good base maps are hard to come by. I will most likely use my 124 S&S motor map as a starting point and just richen it up.
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The original tune was done in Phoenix by Max Gross, we tried an LSR Blackhole 2:1, supposed to be a great pipe, however could not get it tuned properly. He put a piece of plywood and covered half of the pipe, torque and HP shot up, however after he took it away, it dropped considerably. Rather than screw around with dampers adjusters, went with the V&H Pro Pipe, bike dyno at 120/120, still with stock TB and injectors.
Rode the bike back to Calgary, ran really well. I then took it to Jarz Performance, where Roger Jobs met up with us. I had Lee Uhrich put the 57 mm Kuraykyn and changed the injectors to the PICO 6.63 injectors (yellow band), then he tuned the bike using the HD SERT and created a custom MAP for it. Then he dynod and fine tuned for a bit and end the end it achieved the 131hp and 134 tq. The bike ran great in the city and on the highway and averaged 40 mph.
He tuned my B/B 04 SEEG with the SE 03 with head Work by SBC, Dave Mackie 598 Cams, rest engine stock and it came dynod at 13 hp and 116tq. I am taking the bike back to him in June after I ride it back from Phoenix and going to add the Zippers 50mm and check re new injectors, or if I have time in Phoenix may get Nick Trask to install the Zippers TB.
I know once you get the engine set up , you will really enjoy it.
One and only thing I did not like with the older Jims 120, they had a recall on the Lifters and I was never advised of the recall. The lifters went and grenaded the engine on a trip back home from Phoenix between Helena and Great Falls. Montana. After sending the engine back to Jims they replaced the complete engine at no charge. That is why I was riding my BMW GS Adventure at the Western Get Together in Nelson, BC.
geezerglide
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Well Geezer, I came back to finish where we left off, as I was waiting on vendors and parts. Boy this was the longest project I have under taken. But it was worth the wait !!!.
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Well Geezer, I came back to finish where we left off, as I was waiting on vendors and parts. Boy this was the longest project I have under taken. But it was worth the wait !!!.
Here is a picture of the final product.
Just got back (almost) from Phoenix. Bike looks great. have you had a chance to break the engine in yet?
geezerglide
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Geezer,
Just started on the break in. 4 heat cycles before riding it. I changed the oil at 50 and 100 miles. I have 308 miles on the motor so far. I used Dino oil 20/50. Thus far the oil has look great and no metal at all on the oil plug. I will be changing the oil again this weekend as I hope to hit 500 + miles. I expect to get it on a dyno next week to see where the a/f is at.
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It will be great to see how it runs on the road and dyno after break in.
geezerglide
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I finally had my 05' Cherry dyno'd after riding if for years with a "canned" map installed. My modifications are....race tuner, thunder header, 10.5:1 pistons, high flow lifters, fueling oil pump, CNC ported heads, compression releases, S&S gear drive 570 cams, and a SE A/C. Let me know what you think.
Opee
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Just got back from Daytona, went to the dyno shootout to get a baseline on my newly rebuild 103". Stock heads, leinweber ts5 cam, SE 50mm TB,D&D fat cat with performance muffler, fueling pump and lifters, hd 10.5 pistons. :pumpkin:
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Hello, Had my bike dyno tuned at Daytona last week. SE air cleaner Rhinehardt tru duels Red shirt 575 cam(gear drive}. 98 hp and 110 torque. Runs great turns on about 2200 rpm. Tony
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I ran a little experiment on the dyno the other day on the pumpkin (124" engine, 625 TMan cam, & 58 MM throttle body). The goal was to determine how much the K&N air cleaner and the air cleaner cover restricts engine power on a big motor. The results were interesting. Run 044 was with everything installed (127/134). Run 051 was with the air cleaner installed and the air cleaner cover removed (132/138). Run 053 was with the air cleaner removed (135/140). It looks like the stock size air cleaner and the cover that I am using starve the engine above 4000 RPM and I am leaving about 6 HP and 6 ft lbs torque on the table. I guess there will be an investment in a higher flowing air cleaner set up! It never ends!
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I ran a little experiment on the dyno the other day on the pumpkin (124" engine, 625 TMan cam, & 58 MM throttle body). The goal was to determine how much the K&N air cleaner and the air cleaner cover restricts engine power on a big motor. The results were interesting. Run 044 was with everything installed (127/134). Run 051 was with the air cleaner installed and the air cleaner cover removed (132/138). Run 053 was with the air cleaner removed (135/140). It looks like the stock size air cleaner and the cover that I am using starve the engine above 4000 RPM and I am leaving about 6 HP and 6 ft lbs torque on the table. I guess there will be an investment in a higher flowing air cleaner set up! It never ends!
i got a big sucker air cleaner i,ll give ya-AK
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AK,
Which 58mm are you using HD or HPI ?
On my 05 I used the HPI setup with back plate, throttlebody and air filter that came with a neat little cover that blocked no air flow but did cover the bolts that screwed to the stand offs. You might take a look at that one if you arent already using it.
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AK,
Which 58mm are you using HD or HPI ?
On my 05 I used the HPI setup with back plate, throttlebody and air filter that came with a neat little cover that blocked no air flow but did cover the bolts that screwed to the stand offs. You might take a look at that one if you arent already using it.
I'm using the HPI 58MM. I'll take a look at the air cleaner set up. Thanks!
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AK,
Here is a picture of the cover. It screws itself directly into the air filter element and helps hold the 3 bolds in place that screw into the stand offs through the cover plate.
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Just had mine tuned two days ago. Went from a dirty air filter at 67 Hp and 92 TQ base run @ 214* to 78 HP and 101 TQ after tune. Then with a new AC it went to where it should be 94 HP and 111 TQ.
That’s right just the new filter made a jump from 78HP/101TQ to 94HP/111TQ and I just had my local dealer do a 5K tune-up 1K miles ago. Somehow I don’t think they cleaned my filter!!!! I had a K&N filter for 2 days until the stock SEUC football fell off against my leg after it pulled out the center mounting nut.
I’ll post the dyno sheet later.
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Just had the bike back after winter service from dealer, did some mods based on this board input; camplate/chain tensioner/oilpump upgrade & RedShift 575, no riding yet since the roads are still full of salt but I can share the Dyno, total mods include SE AC, V&H slip-on ovals, RedShift 575, SE EFI. Number are metric but translate in 121 ft/lbs & 100 HP SAE.
What strikes me is the TQ dip between 2000-2500, and the flat HP above 4500, given the AF decrease in that area maybe not getting all the air it needs?
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JARZ does it again, playtime soon :pumpkin:
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JARZ does it again, playtime soon :pumpkin:
That's on the 131?
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yes 131" R&R Cycles :drink:
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Had the bike in for a new rear tire. My dealer has a "100 HP Club". basically something they started to generate interest in work and paying for their dyno when they got it.
So I had them do a run to see what it looks like. Don't know what it should be, but was disappointed to see it did not break 100. It actually just barely broke 90. 90 - 94.
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That's not shabby....what were you expecting/what was it before?
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1st time on a dyno Spyder. Not sure what to expect.
Thought it would have broke a 100 though - with cams (S&S 570 gears), compression, larger intake valves and head work, roller rockers, minuscule piston increase, .010" over.
Tuner is an auto unit from Revolution using O2 sensors. Probably not the best tuner, but I'm tired of trowing money in the bucket.
Even threw in some Octane booster that I had.
The good news is - three full throttle runs from 2200 to 6000 and the dip stick stayed put :drink:
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Not bad, remember all the mountains you've climbed. ;D har! spyder
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Dwayne I think something is awry with your motor. That combo should be making 108/115 plus or minus 5 depending on throttlebody and exhaust. I know of at least 7 of these locally and the worst of the numbers in HP is 103/118, but he has a small throttlebody and restrictive exhaust. Its a 03 CVO RK.
Before getting to far down the road you might want to be sure it is not wet sumping or off a tooth on the cams? You may also consider doing a cold cranking compression test and leakdown.
These are decent numbers for a stock bike with open air breather and exhaust and even a little low for that. when they did the run did they do any runs with the sniffer in as well to check your A/F for you?
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Harry, just a run for HP and T, no sniff - its a dealer thing. One hour, couple of pulls, give you the print out. Wouldn't trust them to do any tunes anyway
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I agree with porthole, it also says it was over 90 deg. And I don't think they check airfuel ratio either cause your bike is running very lean. Smooth line across the bottom. Wonder if the machine has been calibrated?
Todd
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Tweeter why do you say the bike is running very lean, just curious how you came to that conclusion from this dynosheet?
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And I don't think they check air fuel ratio
Not checked
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The graph across the bottom of the dyno sheet, it was a smooth flat green line around 18:1.
That's very lean if the sniffer was plugged in to the tail pipes. I would think if it was that engine would not last very long.
Todd
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That is a default when no sniffer is used and they print the A/F table with no data