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[ZOOM is BACK]

So much talk about tuning.A one time tune or 50 tunes is only good for that< Time Frame>. Changes; in temp.engine or atmosphere,atmospheric pressure,humidity,oxygen level,octane level,1 or 2 riders and on and on!!!!!!!! The point is, why set up a bike for a changing world. Auto engine management system or ems. is the only way............  Tuning for one period of time is for drag strip.

[HOGMIKE]

 
JMHO, of course!

 

[ZOOM is BACK]

Of course ??

[grc]

I see the troll is back.  Your post shows you have no idea how the stock Delphi system on your bike works; perhaps you should look into a course at your local community college or trade school.

Jerry

[Rio]

So much talk about tuning.A one time tune or 50 tunes is only good for that< Time Frame>. Changes; in temp.engine or atmosphere,atmospheric pressure,humidity,oxygen level,octane level,1 or 2 riders and on and on!!!!!!!! The point is, why set up a bike for a changing world. Auto engine management system or ems. is the only way............  Tuning for one period of time is for drag strip.

I always thought there was a 5% adjustment built in?  But maybe the drag strip starts at 10,000 ft above sea level ?

[Twolanerider]

You guys could actually understand that well enough to answer.....  ?

[HOGMIKE]

I see the troll is back.  Your post shows you have no idea how the stock Delphi system on your bike works; perhaps you should look into a course at your local community college or trade school.

Jerry

 
There ya go!

[ZOOM is BACK]

Oh Jerry Jerry Jerry . You keep showing your backside again!!!!!!!!!!! Im talking about ems............So you do not have to retune your bike. EMS EMS EMS

[ZOOM is BACK]

Stock ecm on a Harley do a great job on engine safe quards,but do a poor job on performance. That problem started the after market tuners. The ems uses all of the good things provided by the stock ecm.& fixs most all of the performance problems.And will auto updated the fuel&advance as you add your performance parts : exhaust, cams, pistons what ever.They are able to do this by using a wide band O2 sensors& years of work.......... I hope that helps Jerry

[Twolanerider]

Oh Jerry Jerry Jerry . You keep showing your backside again!!!!!!!!!!! Im talking about ems............So you do not have to retune your bike. EMS EMS EMS

EMS is nothing new to this community.  In fact some of us here were early adopters and supporters.  Trouble is the product wasn't kept current by Revolution Performance as it was never made available past the 2011 models and now apparently is available at all (at least for awhile) as the company has hardware issues keeping them from doing the work necessary with the ECMs that are sent to them.  An otherwise very good and promising product may become yet another orphaned piece in the aftermarket.

If you'd like to review the curve that you're behind here is an early, but by no means the earliest, thread on use and installation of an EMS kit that I did:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=58189.0

That install thread and discussion is year and a half old.  So not sure what's to gain right now by throwing the poms poms when the product is moderately well known but is now riding the bench due to problems with the manufacturer.  For a thread from well before the install thread that is a very early discussion of the product check here:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=53222.0

Once again you're just well behind the curve on this one.

[ZOOM is BACK]

revolution will be back on april 30.Behind what?

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I have personally see a couple engines ruined by the EMS system.  Auto tuning my ass.

Wonder why Brian left the company?  Because there just is TOO much BS comes out of Rev Performance.  THATS why!

[porthole]

I have personally see a couple engines ruined by the EMS system. 

How?

[Buckeye_Tuning]

The ECM simply adjusted so rich that it washed cylinders down to the point any lubrication was non existent.  This IS especially important when someone is breaking in a new top end.  While the EMS is 'learning', it runs very rich.  By the time it MAY learn a little... cylinders will be toasted.

Since NO ONE can see, nor adjust an EMS, I think I will pass, and...  I recommend this passing on EMS to everybody.  Rev Perf seems to have quit R&D on this AND Brian Nallin has left Rev Perf, so what does THAT say?  Anybody remember Brian and Nikasil?

[Midnight Rider]

revolution will be back on april 30.Behind what?

Exactly what don't you understand about the statement that the EMS system is not available for bikes later than 2011?  And again, it is obvious from your first post that you really have no clue how your bike actually works with regards to the ECM.  So if you seriously don't understand, then do some reading, or listen to those who actually DO know what they are talking about.  If you're just stirring up chit, do it somewhere else.  Or keep it up and see what happens on a PRIVATELY OWNED site.

[porthole]

The ECM simply adjusted so rich that it washed cylinders down to the point any lubrication was non existent.  This IS especially important when someone is breaking in a new top end.  While the EMS is 'learning', it runs very rich.  By the time it MAY learn a little... cylinders will be toasted.

How was that confirmed?

[Buckeye_Tuning]

By looking at the cylinders.

[eleft36]

Now here's a guy, an EMS advocate, who claims it make a bike run better.

 http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=83845.0

[porthole]

The ECM simply adjusted so rich that it washed cylinders down to the point any lubrication was non existent.
While the EMS is 'learning', it runs very rich.
By the time it MAY learn a little... cylinders will be toasted.

By looking at the cylinders.

What kind of ratio are we talking here - fuel car AFR's of 2:1?

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Don't know really.  Bike would run, etc.  Fuel smell present while running.  Maybe 10:1?  These folks had dude from Rev Perf help and they even came to the customers house to try to dial things in.  After awhile, the bike started to burn a LOT of oil.  One doesn't have a 'tuner' per se with the EMS.  Can NOT look at fuel tables, etc.  My suspicion is the EMS simply refused to 'learn' on this particular bike.  I HAD suspected wrong bung placement as a culprit, but changed my mind after Rev Perf came to the house.  Surely THEY would have mentioned such a thing.

From this one single incident, in which I had actually had contact with the owners... I have completely shied away from EMS.  Simply a system that NOBODY can look into when things don't work like they should.

[Twolanerider]

Don't know really.  Bike would run, etc.  Fuel smell present while running.  Maybe 10:1?  These folks had dude from Rev Perf help and they even came to the customers house to try to dial things in.  After awhile, the bike started to burn a LOT of oil.  One doesn't have a 'tuner' per se with the EMS.  Can NOT look at fuel tables, etc.  My suspicion is the EMS simply refused to 'learn' on this particular bike.  I HAD suspected wrong bung placement as a culprit, but changed my mind after Rev Perf came to the house.  Surely THEY would have mentioned such a thing.

From this one single incident, in which I had actually had contact with the owners... I have completely shied away from EMS.  Simply a system that NOBODY can look into when things don't work like they should.

Actually.... with something as simple as the TwinTec scan tool plugged in to the data port you can watch AFR in real time.  

[sadunbar]

Don't know really.  Bike would run, etc.  Fuel smell present while running.  Maybe 10:1?  These folks had dude from Rev Perf help and they even came to the customers house to try to dial things in.  After awhile, the bike started to burn a LOT of oil.  One doesn't have a 'tuner' per se with the EMS.  Can NOT look at fuel tables, etc.  My suspicion is the EMS simply refused to 'learn' on this particular bike.  I HAD suspected wrong bung placement as a culprit, but changed my mind after Rev Perf came to the house.  Surely THEY would have mentioned such a thing.

From this one single incident, in which I had actually had contact with the owners... I have completely shied away from EMS.  Simply a system that NOBODY can look into when things don't work like they should.

I'm sure every tuning device on the market has suffered from isolated reports of "ruined engines" caused by the device, when the root cause of the problem was never actually factually determined.  I believe the vast majority of EMS users are more than satisfied with the results of the device (also true with the TTS, SERT, TMAX, Power Commander, etc...)

It's disappointing Rev. Perf. abandoned development and maintenance of the EMS - they had a good thing going with this tuner.

[porthole]

I have personally see a couple engines ruined by the EMS system.  Auto tuning my ass.

Don't know really.
From this one single incident, in which I had actually had contact with the owners...

So which is it 1 or more then 1 

Don't know really.
Simply a system that NOBODY can look into when things don't work like they should.

Well Don beat me to it, but I can see what is going on with mine, doesn't mean I completely understand it - but i can see it.

I got an email the other day from Rev P saying they would be back into support for the tuner in late April.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I wasn't personally involved in the other ruined engine reported.  Same results.

No... one can NOT plug in a DTT and
 'see' the AFR.  One would need a Twin Scan plus kit to do so, which I DO have, and... a bunch of other WBo devices like Innovate LM2; (2) LC1s; Powerdex AFR tools; DTT Twin Scan + Kit, etc.

By the time it came to that, Rev Perf was already on site.  They 'said' it was fine.  End results speak for them selves.

Yes, I am SURE most of these work fine.  But I actually talked to Brian right before release at the Cinci show.  There were like 15 base maps and the device dialed it in from there.  DIALED IT IN...  this is NOT dialed in from the jump, nor is it good enough for break-in like Brian told me.  The bike in question NEVER learned the proper AFVs.  EMS was used during break-in.

Also, after studying the architecture, and talking to SC, I determined that the 'wide bands' were hooked to a port inside of the ECM that was used for CAR development when the bike version of the ECM was developed.  Left over stuff.

None of us will never know, unless they hook an EMS to some sniffing equipment and test out whats coming out of the pipes.

Surely folks CAN be happy with their personal outcomes, but for ME to recommend this device, after what I saw, I will NOT recommend this device.  I will recommend a flash tuner, instead.

[Twolanerider]

You are completely correct in that if you're not comfortable with EMS or any other part you shouldn't use it or recommend.  Even if you're not sure why.

[porthole]

EMS was used during break-in.

As well as every new vehicle on the market that uses engine management systems to control the the physical running of the engine.

Surely folks CAN be happy with their personal outcomes, but for ME to recommend this device, after what I saw, I will NOT recommend this device.  I will recommend a flash tuner, instead.

The following comment really has no bearing on the fact that I do have a Rev P EMS, but more so because you have yet to validate any of your claims with a) who you are are and why your suggestions should matter and b) with no real data other then I saw one engine that the system dumped so much fuel down the holes that there was no oil left and the engine blew up.

Some guy once said - trust, but verify. 

I will recommend a flash tuner, instead.

So who are you shilling for then?

[Steve Cole]

I hate to get in things like this but the reports are true. The customer that had the failed engine had Rev P come out on two different occasions to try and straighten it out. The second time Rev flew to the customers home and spent 2 days trying to get it to work properly. After this all happened the customer got in touch with me about using a TTS unit to replace the Rev unit, so that got me personally involved so I can verify what Wurk truk has posted about one failure. The bike owners name is not important but they are out of WY. From what I was told, Rev P also did the original install of the unit as well.

[porthole]

the reports are true. The customer

So is it multiple or one that is verified that an engine failed because of a Rev P EMS?

I'm concerned because I have a Rev P on my bike and I will be breaking in some work.

But - I would have to think 1 verified  issue which may or may not be proven that the RP EMS was the root cause failure doesn't warrant a blanket commendation. Unless the facts are presented.

And even then I would be curious if every other HD V-twin engine management fuel-timing system has had a stellar record and zero failures.

Including the MoCo's own PCM's

Now that said, "I" can verify at least one power commander that failed and left a forum member here stranded on the side of a busy, dangerous local highway with his wife at 9 at night.

We did not condemn the PC and ended up putting a new one back on.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

"Money Effect"-  I own one so it MUST be the best.  

This type of thinking holds NO water in the clear daylight.

I don't shill for chit.  Right now?  I tend towards TTS and also Direct Link.  EMS is NOT the same as an ECM.  A normal ECM can be broken into using various tools to VERIFY settings on how much fuel is ACTUALLY being called down.  Sepst, TTS, PV, Direct Link, etc.  ONLY EMS locks out such verification.  Our ECM is an device made by Delphi.  It is programmed by MOCO.  EMS takes that ECM, alters it both physically and software wise...  NO similarity, except they both control functions needed for the engine to run.  Same as a TMax is also an ECM... but even with TMax, one HAS control.  It is MY opinion that one NEEDS control in certain situations... the foremost being new builds.  Or... one CAN (not WILL, but... CAN) screw up an engine by having to WAIT upon the dialing process.  This is ALL common sense to most members, who don't allow the "Money Effect" to come into play.  I have spent $1000s as an individual bike owner playing around.  I AM inquisitive.  I do NOT allow ANYBODY to make my decisions for me.  I investigate.  Like when I first stated using TTS... back at V1.01 with Doc1.  I purchased a Twin SCan + kit to sniff exhaust with wide bands to .... check and verify... the settings the TTS wanted to use. (BOTH devices called basically the same... TTS DID use good algorithms to tune with).

I'm not here to 'shill' for anything.  I tune once and awhile and have a dyno.  I know a few members here and decided to stop on by.....  since I became BANNED on HTT.  Knowing and stating what I believe is the truth is whats happening for members.  On HTT, I posted that base maps from SEPST and TTS were different than those used by PV.  THAT was simply too politically incorrect for the 'new' PV site...  HTT.  I call em as I see em.  I REALLY like members.  FOlks like ME!  To learn the truth or whats mostly the truth about things.

I HATE the money effect and am VERY vocal about that kind of thinking.  If one can't throw a new build on a wheel and tell what AFR is being called AND what the actual AFR is... not a device for me.  Same as when I was a DIYer...  I want to be in CONTROL on how much fuel is being dumped, yes dumped, in a new build engine.  A NEW engine is NOT any place to hook up a 'tuner' that has to learn first.....  rings WILL be toast way ass before ANY tuner can 'dial it in'.  And THAT...  isn't an opinion at all (like some of the rest of my thoughts are)....  on a NEW build, one HAS to have control of fuel right away.  PERIOD.  AND... that being the case (one should NOT use a 'self tuning ECM, with OUT the ability to set base settings)... why would I recommend or offer this device to ANY customer?  AT some point...  most of us online go for MORE performance, right?  Different pistons come into play for most seeking enhanced performance at SOME point.  AND... at THAT point... the EMS sucks.

With a flash tuner, there are 100s of base maps.  Also, even me, as a DIYer, could also alter the map a bit to be slightly rich for when I heat cycle an engine.  So can the members here.  EMS, you have NO idea of whats happening.  Some things take NO MORE THAN COMMON SENSE.  The common sense of ring seating is slightly rich.  PERIOD.  Not lean and not way rich.  with fewer than 15 base maps installed by EMS, there HAS to be a period where the bike 'dials in'.  Right?  Common sense is a bitch.  Prolly should be getting used to me here in the ECM section.  I will be a vendor by mid summer and offer members discounts on dyno tunes, right?

And... this is NOT to say if an EMS is installed on some stockish bike, that it won't work, but it is NOT anything for ME to offer customers for sure.  

[porthole]

When computer controls came out on Chrysler products back in the 80's, the "Combustion Computer" caused a lot of problems from severe engine issues to accidents. People still bought the vehicles though.

Ford has some real issues concerning fuel systems with the 6.7 diesels, causing some customers to be out $10,000+, yet the Super Duty is still the best selling heavy duty pickup in the world.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

And... besides what Steve says with dude, there was also a completely different member, on HTT, have the exact same issue.  I was consulted by the bike owner that Steve talks about before he called Steve. I received the pictures, I made the phone calls, etc.

 After seeing two different members have the exact same issues... that WAS enough for me.  And this is NOT a matter of a PC3 going bad.  This is NOT a matter of operator error.  This IS a matter of, when breaking rings in, the fuel MUST have some form of control.  On a stock Harley, it IS broken in by the stock base map inside of the ECM.  It IS the correct map for the situation.  It is a VERY specific map.  NO 'learning' needs to go one upon that very first start up.  MOCO loaded a map that worked, and I, me?, recommend the exact same thing for a new build, too.  a SPECIFIC map, not one that needs to learn a wide swing of AFR.  Somehow there were 'issues' with the bike in question.  EMS simply didn't work well for his build.  OK, I will go with that.

But... that does NOT eliminate the need for my opinion of CONTROL should be had when breaking in new rings.

In conclusion... I can NOT, in good conscience, recommend an EMS.  Members here should have some of the facts of engine 101.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I'm posting while you are Posting Member Porthole.  Does it matter to YOU on YOUR bike, if Ford sells a ton of trucks?  I just post this for YOU to think about whenever the time comes in the future you swap into different pistons... and for the rest of the members, too.  It's YOUR money, right?  If I could simply LOOK at the settings of an EMS, my opinion could be wildly different.  If I could change the settings, they WOULD be quite different.  I LIKE everything about EMS, except for the glaring hole in its scheme of locking out folks.

AND... there is also this: when folks say their bike runs 'great'?  That statement begs the question..... as opposed to what?  Seriously!  If they are like I used to be, the only bike I could compare to was the one I owned.  In truth... it may actually run like chit and leave all kinds of power or even mileage on the table.  But... since it runs 'better' using the butt dyno, one can think it is great.  THAT... is what truly lead me to the place I am now.  Curiosity about what makes the BEST power and runs the nicest, using TOOLS to verify such.  NOT a butt dyno.

Friggin expensive hobby...  owning a Harley, for sure.  I have MORE money in tuning crap than I do in any bike I have owned.

[porthole]

"Money Effect"-  I own one so it MUST be the best.  

This type of thinking holds NO water in the clear daylight.

And who thinks this way here?
If this is towards me you are way off base. Just because I have a Rev P EMS means nothing to me. It just happens to be on the bike now And, it is not working to what I hoped it would, but I don't blatantly condemn it.

Lets face it, we are talking about a particular brand of bike which if they ran good to begin with this thread would not exist.

I'm not here to 'shill' for anything. 
I tune once and awhile and have a dyno. 
I know a few members here and decided to stop on by..... 

I HATE the money effect and am VERY vocal about that kind of thinking.
I will be a vendor by mid summer and offer members discounts on dyno tunes, right?
for ME to offer customers for sure. 

So who are you since only a few of thousands of members obviously don't know you?
Personally, I find it hard to take your comments seriously. Not to say what you are saying is not true, but you offer no reason to believe. Most of the comments are geared towards "lets make this item look good by making this item look bad".

Screen names mean nothing for the most part, unless your screen name is something like Doc or Steve or JohnS etc
your text under your screen name 

And the country you chose to have displayed 

And I am a little confused, are you going to be  vendor and offer similar products for sale here?

Will it be some type of engine management that I can bolt on, plug in my O2's and ride off without dyno tuning?

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Will it be some type of engine management that I can bolt on, plug in my O2's and ride off without dyno tuning?

Didn't I say tuning discounts?

NO such thing exists, like Rev Perf would like you to believe.  There ARE limitations with any of these tuning schemes.  Just showing some things that COMMON SENSE should answer.  I am not here to argue with you.  You seem to not 'get it', so I will bow out.  NOT saying you are dumb or anything else, either.  What I am TRYING to show you... ANY swing in AFRs, while seating rings is BAD BAD BAD.  And... since most members online LIKE to increase the power of their bikes?  The choice of any kind of tuner becomes important because some have no clue if they will do a power bump in the future.

Dude....  if you do do a power upgrade, you really DO need a tuner, NOT an EMS type system for that first heat cycle.  Remember THAT when you fire it up with the EMS.

So...  I guess I AM a shill for tuning products in general.  I AM a shill for dyno tuning.  I AM a shill for DIYers to actually 'tune' their bikes.  Why?  Best running bike... NOT a guess from someone 1000s of miles away.  Yup...  I DO like, and believe in, tuning bikes to THE bike in question.  So....  haha... I AM guilty of that.  And Member Porthole....  I am talking to a wider audience than just you, you realize that, right?  I am here to provoke THINKING....  all the way from Bangladesh.... which to most... thats known as OHIO....a third world State, if there ever was one.

[Steve Cole]

But - I would have to think 1 verified  issue which may or may not be proven that the RP EMS was the root cause failure doesn't warrant a blanket commendation. Unless the facts are presented.

I can assure you the one that I was involved with the damage was caused by the RevP unit, it was proven. Why it did not work and they could not fix it I do not know. I know that they tried but they could not fix it and if it were that simple I would believe that once they flew to the customers home they would have just replaced the unit with a new one if they thought that would fix it. You asked for verification and that is what I gave you, no more no less. I read about another failure but other than reading about it I cannot confirm anything about that one.

[Twolanerider]

This type of thinking holds NO water in the clear daylight.

And... this is NOT to say if an EMS is installed on some stockish bike, that it won't work, but it is NOT anything for ME to offer customers for sure.  

I've gone back and read what you've written so far.  You're opinion informing your own decisions as to what to purchase is perfectly understandable.  But it has been informed by no actual data so far as you've explained yourself.

You've said a motor failed.  A new motor.  With EMS installed.  You've also said you had no way of monitoring the EMS to know what was going on.  So you've got zero causative link. 

The motor failed and it had a throttle body.  So it must have been the throttle body.  That statement carries as much weight as yours about the EMS with the facts presented so far.

For all anyone knows the engine was assembled dry or very very wet and rings didn't seal.  Or there was an injector stuck open.  Or there was a wiring fault.  Or.... or.... or....  well.... no one knows. 

Sure, something failed.  But that's all that's known for sure.

I have installed EMS on nine or ten bikes.  One with a newly fired engine.  It happened to work fine each time.  That doesn't mean it didn't on yours.  But there's nothing about your description of the facts so far that proves anything other than coincidental association and a somewhat messianic passion to lay blame.  You don't hesitate to place blame despite the fact you've said yourself you didn't know what was going on. 

Y'know what; that's ok too.  You can have all the suspicions you want.  Unfounded or not.  You just can't expect generally literate users to pay any attention.  You don't have to use EMS.  And I don't have to care.

[Twolanerider]

I can assure you the one that I was involved with the damage was caused by the RevP unit, it was proven.

How?

Steve, in the past you've had issues dealing with clients and/or interested readers here.  It's something you've admitted wasn't always your best skill.  Recently, however, your demeanor has been more helpful and direct without the condescending reactionary tones that had too often been your response in the past.  Personally I found it refreshing. 

Consider how you'd have dealt in the past with someone blaming your product without offering foundation as has been done here?  You'd have gone batchit nuts. It would've accomplished little other than to alienate many who were watching but it would have been your reaction.

This gentleman may have a legitimate beef.  Or he may not.  There's no way for any of us to know based on what he's offered; especially when he's written himself that he didn't know what was going on as it happened and no other foundation has been offered.  Piling on a weakened foundation doesn't add strength.  So if you've got something that does add strength (beyond just saying "me too") please share.  Otherwise you're only trying to preach to an audience that is part of a congregation looking for foundation rather than speculation or unsupported assertion.  The latter is even less effective when it is perceived as competitive speech against another product in your market.

[Steve Cole]

I'm not preaching to anyone, and this is just why I try my best to stay out of these things. Here is what I know, the customer, not Wurk-truk had the EMS installed by RevP at a show. They were told it was a fresh engine build. The bike did not run correctly after install. They, RevP told him to ride it and it would self tune in. It did not. There were several conversation between RevP and the customer with the issue and the EMS was removed and returned along with the head pipes for checkout as the bike was getting worse. The oil was showing fuel in it and the pipes and plugs were black with soot. The conversations were between Brain and Josh at RevP and the customer. After several attempts by RevP to correct the issue an the oil showing fuel in it after a few hundred miles each time, RevP flew Josh out to the customers to fix it. Josh worked it over and said it's fixed. Customer rode the bike for a few hundred miles and it did the same thing again, only now the engine which had just been redone started showing more blowby. This is the point that I received a phone call about our system and the customer told me what had gone on. So I was not there when all this happened and did not see the motor getting built but it went back to who did the engine work and they said the rings were washed out of it and it scored the cylinders and pistons because of overfueling. Cylinders and pistons were replaced again and the heads cleaned up and the ECM replaced back to stock. Bike was then tuned and it now running fine with a happy customer. To me this is solid proof that the combination was/is fine and the only other thing changed was removal of the EMS system. This all happened several months ago so I hope that I have repeated everything in the proper order from memory. For the record the customer has reported this on other Website's as well, so if it really matters to anyone you can do a little digging and find it out for yourselves. I just don't feel it's my place to give out a customers name.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

And...  I will add that it was the exact same TB and the exact same injectors.  I also talked to the owner and feel it was the tuner.  At least you, twolanerider, know its an opinion, but it is solid enough for ME to go by AND enough for me to state possible issues for other members to review.

And... it IS rare for me to condemn a product completely, too.  I'm NOT Steve...  HAHA!  .  I feel there IS more than one way to do things at times.  But, with a few things Brian told me, like the maps installed ARE very rich to start out, on purpose, amongst others, makes me wonder.  Why wonder at all?  Other solutions fill the bill for right now.  Do I think a true self tuner COULD be had?  Yup!  Just ain't there..... yet.

I just was just trying to point out the EASIEST solution usually isn't the BEST solution.....  and for those that read this thread to THINK first.

Hmmmm.... I guess that I AM a shill.... for actual tuning.  So, I am NOT without an agenda here.  Nor, will I be.  I believe in objective terms like you guys do.  I cannot hold up my end of the EMS argument with documented failure reports.  OK, fine.  But....  I would really LIKE to put up a properly tuned bike against a DIYer TTS tune.  Same bike.  No BS there... what some call a 'good running bike' won't be to others.

I think we are done with this.

Tuning IS fun!  I'm going to work on start up settings on a 120r right now.  I'm thinking some roughness on whacking the throttle, at idle, is because I am giving the bike too much fuel with the AE table.  I get to play with stuff when time permits.

Oh, and for Porthole.  I KNOW Steve Cole, Doc, Lonewolf, Jason from C&S, etc.  Call any of those guys and ask about me a little.  I AM a dumbass for sure, but I am a meticulous kind of guy, to a fault probably.  I DO listen and change my mind when facts warrant such.  And....  I have over $22k in tuning crap to LEARN all I can about things....  more so than tune bikes for folks.  I question everything.  I accept nothing as 'fact'.  But... in this instance there was enough uncertainty to turn me off of this particular product.  We're good, fellas.

[Twolanerider]

I'm not preaching to anyone, and this is just why I try my best to stay out of these things. Here is what I know, the customer, not Wurk-truk had the EMS installed by RevP at a show. They were told it was a fresh engine build. The bike did not run correctly after install. They, RevP told him to ride it and it would self tune in. It did not. There were several conversation between RevP and the customer with the issue and the EMS was removed and returned along with the head pipes for checkout as the bike was getting worse. The oil was showing fuel in it and the pipes and plugs were black with soot. The conversations were between Brain and Josh at RevP and the customer. After several attempts by RevP to correct the issue an the oil showing fuel in it after a few hundred miles each time, RevP flew Josh out to the customers to fix it. Josh worked it over and said it's fixed. Customer rode the bike for a few hundred miles and it did the same thing again, only now the engine which had just been redone started showing more blowby. This is the point that I received a phone call about our system and the customer told me what had gone on. So I was not there when all this happened and did not see the motor getting built but it went back to who did the engine work and they said the rings were washed out of it and it scored the cylinders and pistons because of overfueling. Cylinders and pistons were replaced again and the heads cleaned up and the ECM replaced back to stock. Bike was then tuned and it now running fine with a happy customer. To me this is solid proof that the combination was/is fine and the only other thing changed was removal of the EMS system. This all happened several months ago so I hope that I have repeated everything in the proper order from memory. For the record the customer has reported this on other Website's as well, so if it really matters to anyone you can do a little digging and find it out for yourselves. I just don't feel it's my place to give out a customers name.

So to summarize all this what you "know" is anecdotal.  There is more to this story that I've been made aware.  Also anecdotal though.  So it means no more to any actual fact than what you've shared.  Conveniently left out from Work Truk's episode and the anecdotes shared so far is that Josh and others at RevPerf told the customer who owned the new build that his bung locations were way off, that Josh was told they'd be moved and that, upon later inspection when RP flew Josh on their dime to help out that the position hadn't been changed.

Steve, just like you here, I only get all this anecdotally.  I trust the source.  But I don't have first hand information.  Which is why it's a detail not worth the bother; just like all the other details shared so far. 

The only thing we all presume to know for sure is that there was failure and that this failure coincided with use of EMS.  I personally know of an engine that had a top end job done that used TTS.  The bike never ran right.  The shop actually botched the engine job.  But they tried to blame the tuning device.  I helped the buddy out and we found rings lined up and other stupid problems.  But if he'd just rode it til it broke and listened to the shop he'd be all over forums blaming you.  Fortunately for you he didn't rely on anecdotal reference or someone trying to evade.  He (with help) actually found out what was the matter.  Something no one here has gotten close to really doing.

[naitram]

unless the actual owner of said MC wants to come here and post about it this thread is done