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CVO Social => In The News => Topic started by: ccr on December 15, 2007, 07:12:52 PM
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I have been an H-D owner for over five years. I currently own a '03 Road King, a '05 BMW R1200RT and a '98 Honda Magna. I previously owned a '03 V-Rod.
Every year when the new H-Ds are announced and reviewed, I keep waiting for the guffaws when gthe prices are given. Of course, they are elbowed out of the way by the requisite complimentary reviews. Same this year on the CVOs, the annual Emperor’s New Clothes reviews. When is someone going to come out and say (between laughing fits) that up to $35,000 for a cruiser that struggles to break 80 hp is laughable? Even at those prices, almost every buyer will have to spend more to correct shortcomings, like the seats and horns. And why aren’t they called mid-sized?
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy riding my Road King, aside from the pitiful brakes and lack of room in the riding position. At 6’3”, I am too cramped on it for much time in the saddle. I have tried four seats and three different handlebars in various combinations to add room. My BMW and Magna will both run circles around the Road King and are roomier.
The RT tops 100 hp. When you get one, you don’t need to replace anything. After riding the RT, riding the H-D is like driving a BMW and then driving an old Chevy. Both are fun, but who will be first to say that an H-D that is 60% higher in price and puts out a bit less in hp than a BMW, or nearly double the price of a Starliner, 109 VTX is absurd?
Jim Williams, San Antonio, TX.
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MSN response - Jim we tend to think that CVO prices, like prices in general, are a matter of economics: If the company can get those kinds of prices, who’s to say they are crazy. Also, the rate of depreciation on used CVOs is the same as on standard Big Twins as nearly as we can determine.
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Don’t Hate Harleys – January 2008 MCN
Re: Mr. Jim Williams’ letter regarding the high prices of the CVO Harley-Davidson models, I can accept that $35,000 is a lot of cash for any motorcycle. However, what I take issue with is the rest of his letter that basically boils down to: “I have a Road King and it’[s s inferior in all ways to the other two motorcycles that I own.” Mr. Williams, don’t hate. If you dislike the motorcycles that much, then sell it. I personally don’t care if you think other motorcycles are superior to H-D’s product line.
Yes, I own a Harley. Do I think that own the most technologically advanced bike on the planet? No. But that’s not the point of owning a Harley. Finally when it comes downs to it, I can ride my ol’ POS just as far as you can ride your BMW (I just may be a few minutes behind you…) okay?
John Sannes, Rosamond, CA
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Separating Motorcycling and H-D January 2008 MCN
After reading Jim William’ letter in last month’s MCN titled “Outrageous CVO Prices,” I felt compelled to add my tow cents regarding the Harley value proposition.
The editor is correct to assert that Harley-Davidson would be crazy not to charge what the market will bear. They do, and it does.
I know because I participated in the market for 210 years for over 200,000 trouble=-free miles on three Harleys. Like many, I thought the value was great – I loved my cool Harleys and I loved the motorcycling, believing the two were one and the same. However, with time (and MCN) as a teacher, I came to quietly question Harley’s value proposition, a blasphemy I dared not share with my riding buddies.
Then a funny thing happened on my way through the hps on a R2250RT: I began to realize that my love affair with motorcycling and very little to do with Harley-Davidson. After returning from a second High Alpine Adventure on the R1200RT, the Harley value proposition had entirely lost its luster. Now able to more objectively assess my motorcycling “needs,” I began secretly evaluating the bikes of other manufacturers.
Then, with the urging, no, make that the insistence of a friend (a former Harley rider and flat track Harley factory racer himself), I did the previously unthinkable and bought a, er, uh, a-a Honda!! – Specifically, a ’06 Gold Wing with ABS. So what do I think about the Wing’s performance and total value proposition? One word says it all: Wow!
The transition is now completed. These days the Fat Boy collects a lot of dust while the Wing chews up the miles, the curves and any Harley on the road. It’s perhaps unfortunate for Harley-Davidson, but anyone who really aspires to simple yet exhilarating joys that “motorcycling”: has to offer must eventually come to the inescapable conclusion that what Harley really sells is image, not motorcycles.
Anyone who rides a Harley and loves riding for riding’s sake owes it themselves to swing their leg over another bike. Once you have, your notion of the “value proposition” will quickly evolve and you’ll know it’s time to move on.
Steve Bennett
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... It’s perhaps unfortunate for Harley-Davidson, but anyone who really aspires to simple yet exhilarating joys that “motorcycling” has to offer must eventually come to the inescapable conclusion that what Harley really sells is image, not motorcycles.
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Basic Marketing 101; if all you have is image or style, then sell image or style. The MoCo has gotten by quite well over the past ten years following that philosophy, but unfortunately for them image without substance probably won't cut it over the next ten years. Eventually they will have to add performance, quality, reliability, and competitive prices to the mix if they expect to prosper.
Jerry
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Basic Marketing 101; if all you have is image or style, then sell image or style. The MoCo has gotten by quite well over the past ten years following that philosophy, but unfortunately for them image without substance probably won't cut it over the next ten years. Eventually they will have to add performance, quality, reliability, and competitive prices to the mix if they expect to prosper.
Jerry
Yep, you got it, and I guess a few of us, me included have bought it. And willing to pay top dollar for it too.
Leaving a restaurant yesterday after lunch, it is pretty cold out - about 34, and two girls sitting outside smoking call out to me how much they love Harley's, and mine is particularly nice looking. Then they never took their eyes off of us as we started the bikes up, did a U turn and headed out of town.
I know how they feel.
Every time a bike races past our windy country road we pay attention, but when it is the unmistakable rumble of a Harley going by, we watch it from one side to the other of our vision line.
I may wish for performance and reliability, but I'm still buying the image.
:cherry:
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more of a culture or brotherhood than an image.
The last time I checked, Mercedes Benz has S500 and S600's in the service bays for mechanical and minor equipment failure. Those a 85-120k price tagged vehicles, they do the same thing that the 15k vehicles do, get you from point a to point b and back.
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Interesting read and perspective......thanks for posting.
I tried the BMW, twice, and it's a hell of a motorcycle. But at 6'4" tall, I could not get past the feeling that my hips were locked in a very uncomfortable position. I talked to a couple of the salesman about it and they admitted that they hear that complaint from time to time, from the taller riders. So I found it ineresting in the post above, the guy is 6'3" and says that the bike (his BMW) is more comfortable than a Harley (that he claims didn't have room for him) than a BMW that has his legs bent all up under him. :nixweiss: I'll stay with Harley for now, thank you!
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I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here again. I've tried the rest and came back, in my opinion, to the best. I'm 6'4" tall and I've had both BMW and Honda touring rigs and I came back to HD. I can't believe he said he had more room on the Beemer. That's one of the reasons I got rid of it. It's not the image for me as it is the feelings that a Harley gives when I ride it and the sound, or as some people call it, the soul of the bike. When I had the Beemer and the Wing, I was just riding the motorcycle, when I ride my Ultra, I'm a part of the motorcycle, not just a rider. To me, that's the difference. And I have to admit, Harley has done a good job of "selling the brotherhood". There are more HOG members than the Gold Wing Road Riders and the BMW Owners Group. I remember when GWRR was excited a couple of years ago that they had reached 800,000 members worldwide. I kind of chuckled at that as HOG had surpassed the one million mark a couple of years before that. To me it's a life-style more than an image. I bleed orange and black, I never bled Beemer blue and white, or whatever colors Honda is. Are Hondas and Beemers technologically better motorcycles? Sure they are, but that's not all riding a motorcycle is. Just my opinion folks and no slights whatsoever to BMW and Honda. They both make great motorcycles, but they, in my opinion lack a personality, a soul.
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
:devil:
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Well Said RedDevil. I rode a Honda, and would always buy HD shirts. I've never bought a Honda shirt while riding the HD.
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Here's my experience over 33 years of riding:
Yamaha to Honda to Suzuki back to Yamaha to Triumph to Yamaha to Harley to Harley! In between got to ride BMW's, Boss Hosses, Ducatti's that belonged to friends. Liked them all, love my 2 Harley's today. :)
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...maybe we should change our logo, I made this for the local motorcycle cops. You can copy it and reverse it for a iron on. Doc
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I dunno, I think this is one of those cases where the old phrase, "If I had to explain, you wouldn't understand," applies. I rode Kawasakis for many years before going to Harley's in the fall of 2001. At this point in time, I don't see me ever going back, no matter how many seats, horns, speakers, windshields, brake levers, etc., etc., etc., I have to buy to get the bike to my liking. What can I say, I just love our (CVO) motorcycles. :nixweiss:
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I'm in 100% Agreement. Linny
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more of a culture or brotherhood than an image.
The last time I checked, Mercedes Benz has S500 and S600's in the service bays for mechanical and minor equipment failure. Those a 85-120k price tagged vehicles, they do the same thing that the 15k vehicles do, get you from point a to point b and back.
Very valid points - worked for a guy a few years ago who had more problems with a $120k Mercedes than I have EVER had with any of my Chryslers or Fords. Not gonna go into that long gone Beemer from hell here due to time constraints & besides we bought another one anyway cuz we liked the style.
It all boils down to what we are looking for & want vs what we can afford & what we PERCEIVE our needs to be. Cheaper faster bikes? - that's why I rode Kawas for years. Rode Yamahas but never owned a shirt or stopped at Yammer dealers when traveling. The MoCo does a great job when it comes to marketing & marketing is all about image.
Beemer bikes cramp me - I'm 6' 3" so also question the above comment re:comfort. Hondas so far do not appeal to me & I have been riding 37 years now without ever owning a Honda.
Is 35k a lot to spend for a bike? Maybe, maybe not. Cost vs value vs satisfaction makes the price point too subjective to make a final determination. HD charges that & more, so it must not be too high for lots of folks. Will HD continue on its merry way? That in fact is also subjective. They may or may not & overall product quality does play a big role in that determination. Indian circa 1990's or so is a good example of doing oneself in.
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:orange:Its a lifestyle and marketing have had them all liked myGW and the kawasaki triumph all were nice but always came back to harley aside from everything else they cant match this
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:orange:Its a lifestyle and marketing have had them all liked myGW and the kawasaki triumph all were nice but always came back to harley aside from everything else they cant match this
Sometimes a picture truly is worth a thousand words!
(http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18802.0;attach=50731;image)
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But are you forgetting, you meet the nicest people on a Honda?
I was going to a surprise birthday party for Phaze last night and needed a gag gift. I went by a Honda dealer to get a t-shirt for that purpose. They had none, nada, not a single one, the only thing they had were racing jackets and motocross stuff. I mentioned this to a friend last night at the party, he said the smartest thing HD did by far was HOG, that and opening a network of t-shirt shops (aka dealerships).
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But are you forgetting, you meet the nicest people on a Honda?
I was going to a surprise birthday party for Phaze last night and needed a gag gift. I went by a Honda dealer to get a t-shirt for that purpose. They had none, nada, not a single one, the only thing they had were racing jackets and motocross stuff. I mentioned this to a friend last night at the party, he said the smartest thing HD did by far was opening a network of t-shirt shops (aka dealerships).
Yep, ask WFP about that.
Hell, I like just having the Harley in the garage in the winter. Puts a smile on my face every time I look at it and think of my next ride. (oh, I guess its not "the" Harley any longer, hope the nanner is putting a smile on S-B's face to for now)
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I have noticed that MCN itself has a bias against Harleys, and has for years. When they did their review on the "08 CVOs they mentioned that the seating position bent your legs too much. What's up with that? As far as I've noticed, the seat to floorboard distance is about the same since I bought my first Electra-glide 20 years ago. They also said the bat wing fairing was too heavy and made handling heavier. The same fairing has been on these bikes forever. -Sure there is more electronics in there, but I don't find myself fighting to turn a corner. -Give me a break!
Also, in the current issue, they only give the Harley touring bikes three out of a possible five "bullets" for an over all rating. The Goldwings get four and a half. If you go by MCN's reviews, you would never own a Harley.
The funny thing is, they don't accept any advertising. The mag is supposed to be purely objective. I personally have owned three wings. Great bikes! -I sold my last one twenty years ago after doing a fly and ride (I also had an FXRS at the time) and deciding I liked the Harley much better. (I rented a '87 Electra-glide from Chosa's in Phoenix, and visited Fort Huachuca where I'd spent my last year and a half in the army). It looked better, sounded better, and handled better. It definately had more character, and I didn't get the pain in my back shoulder area after several hours in the saddle that I got with the wing. My current bike is my 14th new Harley and my 8th Electra-glide.
I still have a copy of the OLD MCN when it was Road Rider magazine, that has two color pictures of me and my wife pulling into Central City, CO on an '83 Goldwing pulling a trailer. That's when we met Bob and Patty Carpenter, the editors of the magazine. That was in '84. They were doing a 50k road test on the new Yamaha Venture for Yamaha.
When Road Rider changed to MCN they went with a cheap paper stock, and did away with the colors. They accept no advertising. They are supposed to be objective, but they are really not into touring bikes. They like crotch rockets best. They definately don't like Harleys.
So much for objectivity.
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Yep, ask WFP about that.
Hell, I like just having the Harley in the garage in the winter. Puts a smile on my face every time I look at it and think of my next ride. (oh, I guess its not "the" Harley any longer, hope the nanner is putting a smile on S-B's face to for now)
Sure, just cause I plan my trips around the t-shirt stops....but wait, for nelson I really need those stops since most of them could not cure my bike ills!
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I dunno, I think this is one of those cases where the old phrase, "If I had to explain, you wouldn't understand," applies. I rode Kawasakis for many years before going to Harley's in the fall of 2001. At this point in time, I don't see me ever going back, no matter how many seats, horns, speakers, windshields, brake levers, etc., etc., etc., I have to buy to get the bike to my liking. What can I say, I just love our (CVO) motorcycles. :nixweiss:
We have three motorcycle cops in our town, two on Harleys and one on a Kawi. The two officers on Harleys either ride solo or together. The officer on the Kawi always rides solo or in back of the Harleys. "If I had to explain you wouldn't understand." :2vrolijk_21: Doc
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I have noticed that MCN itself has a bias against Harleys, and has for years. When they did their review on the "08 CVOs they mentioned that the seating position bent your legs too much. What's up with that? As far as I've noticed, the seat to floorboard distance is about the same since I bought my first Electra-glide 20 years ago. They also said the bat wing fairing was too heavy and made handling heavier. The same fairing has been on these bikes forever. -Sure there is more electronics in there, but I don't find myself fighting to turn a corner. -Give me a break!
Also, in the current issue, they only give the Harley touring bikes three out of a possible five "bullets" for an over all rating. The Goldwings get four and a half. If you go by MCN's reviews, you would never own a Harley.
The funny thing is, they don't accept any advertising. The mag is supposed to be purely objective. I personally have owned three wings. Great bikes! -I sold my last one twenty years ago after doing a fly and ride (I also had an FXRS at the time) and deciding I liked the Harley much better. (I rented a '87 Electra-glide from Chosa's in Phoenix, and visited Fort Huachuca where I'd spent my last year and a half in the army). It looked better, sounded better, and handled better. It definately had more character, and I didn't get the pain in my back shoulder area after several hours in the saddle that I got with the wing. My current bike is my 14th new Harley and my 8th Electra-glide.
I still have a copy of the OLD MCN when it was Road Rider magazine, that has two color pictures of me and my wife pulling into Central City, CO on an '83 Goldwing pulling a trailer. That's when we met Bob and Patty Carpenter, the editors of the magazine. That was in '84. They were doing a 50k road test on the new Yamaha Venture for Yamaha.
When Road Rider changed to MCN they went with a cheap paper stock, and did away with the colors. They accept no advertising. They are supposed to be objective, but they are really not into touring bikes. They like crotch rockets best. They definately don't like Harleys.
So much for objectivity.
Actually, the average human has gotten considerably taller in the past 20-30 years. One reason us short dudes like Harleys (at least the Dyna's and Touring models) is that they don't force you to stretch out to reach the controls, or stand on tippy-toes to hold the bike up at stops. This advantage can easily become a disadvantage for tall folks, with a "knees in the face" feeling. I wouldn't badmouth MCN's objectivity based on that comment; the same comment comes from members here as well as other mags that carry plenty of H-D advertising and normally gloss over the many faults.
No doubt about it, a bike with a fork mounted batwing fairing isn't going to handle as well as a bike with a frame mounted fairing. Put a few thousand miles on a Road Glide, jump back on the E-Glide, and make your own comparison.
Without trying to start another of those endless debates about Harleys versus all other brands, I think MCN's rating isn't all that far off. Putting aside all the "soul" and other nebulous factors folks like to throw out concerning Harley's, if you were to take the same approach that Consumer Reports uses on cars, with objective test results as well as subjective comments, you would be hard pressed to come up with enough subjective points to offset the performance numbers of the GW.
JMHO - Jerry
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Ah, the dreaded "My bike's better than your bike, my bike's better then yours" song. Maybe. Maybe not. It's always fun to have a discussion about why your bike, car, girl is better then the next guys. But very rarely does it convince anyone of anything.
I listened once. About cars. Lotsa people said "Young man, buy a Subaru. Stop paying all those repair bills on that american cr@p. Better technology." Hmmm. One blown motor and $5000 for a junyard motor installed, not to mention some suspension issues, bad radio, broken hatch strut and not very good in the snow for an all wheel drive I sold it and bought a Ford. That's right. Found On Road Dead. Happy me! Perfect truck. Towed a missan 4x4 truck and a SUBARU out of trouble last year in the Valentine's day masacre.. I mean storm in PA.
Moral of the story? Never try to teach a pig to sing. It just wastes your time and annoys the pig. Me, I'll keep my Nemo (Copper Canyon FLHTCUSE3). $40,000 after the accessories, warrenty and tax. I'm quite happy. It's been perfect. Doesn't leak or run too hot. I don't know how fast it goes, cause I like the time I'm riding it so I never go as fast it can, so I get more saddle time. I don't know if it can out handle the BMW 1200 I rode with last. Neither her nor I cared who's bike handled better or went faster. We enjoyed the ride. She admired my electronics. I admired her lines. I mean her bike's lines. Honest.
I'm so tired of defending my decision to buy a Harley from the BMR crowd. My decision to ride a Glide instead of a Wing from the Honda crowd. My decision not to spend my 40 large on a ProStreet American Chopper wannabe from the "Chopper Crowd" who only ride 500 miles a year. And my decision not hop up the engine from some of the Screamin Eagle folks at my dealer who think if you but a CVO you must wanna go fast.
To Each Their Own.
Peace,
J-Carr
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That reminds me of an interresting thought I had last week when I went buy a couple of different local dealers here that sell choppers. They both have quite a few brand new choppers on the floor, most 2006 models, makes me wonder if that market has run it's course all over or is it just in my area. :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:
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I like most bikes and am grateful to have four unique bikes in the garage. Each bike has a purpose and they all do better at some things over the other. The CVO Ultra is a wonderful two-up bike that's a great and fun cruiser with a ton of character. The BMW R1200 GS Adventure is a monster of a bike with the boxes on the sides and a top case. This bike I ride myself and enjoy going on long distance adventures -it eats up the highway and has a long range with a near 9 gallon tank. The BMW is a great machine with precision and is smooth as glass to ride. The KTM 640 Adventure is a dual purpose bike on a very well proven platform with the LC4 4 stroke engine. Besides, it's one of the coolest looking bikes on the road. It's a go anywhere type bike and it's orange and black! Finally, I like riding on the dirt too, so a Yamaha 450 WR does the trick providing a load of torque. It's reliable and very light checking in at 248 lbs. dry.
Ride what you like - if has two wheels and a motor, that's all that counts...
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Actually, the average human has gotten considerably taller in the past 20-30 years. One reason us short dudes like Harleys (at least the Dyna's and Touring models) is that they don't force you to stretch out to reach the controls, or stand on tippy-toes to hold the bike up at stops. This advantage can easily become a disadvantage for tall folks, with a "knees in the face" feeling. I wouldn't badmouth MCN's objectivity based on that comment; the same comment comes from members here as well as other mags that carry plenty of H-D advertising and normally gloss over the many faults.
No doubt about it, a bike with a fork mounted batwing fairing isn't going to handle as well as a bike with a frame mounted fairing. Put a few thousand miles on a Road Glide, jump back on the E-Glide, and make your own comparison.
Without trying to start another of those endless debates about Harleys versus all other brands, I think MCN's rating isn't all that far off. Putting aside all the "soul" and other nebulous factors folks like to throw out concerning Harley's, if you were to take the same approach that Consumer Reports uses on cars, with objective test results as well as subjective comments, you would be hard pressed to come up with enough subjective points to offset the performance numbers of the GW.
JMHO - Jerry
Jerry, I'm 6'4". I'm saying the Harley fits this short dude just fine. As far as the other comments about MCN's dislike of Harley's I was merely mentioning the negative comments in the last issue or two. The negative comments go back for many years. Also, the reason I keep buying Harleys is that they work best for me. I think they must work best for quite a few people when I look at the market results. People vote with their pocket-book. I have voted on motorcyles 26 times. I think I've given all of them a fair chance. I vote Harley.
If I end up with a leaker, I'm not sure if I'll fix it, or switch to a Wing. Although "soul" is a subjective thing, I guess I can get used to riding an electric fan once more.
I'm not ignorant of the way frame mounted fairings work vs. handlebar mounted ones. I like the handlebar ones on a Harley. It appears the majority of Harley bagger riders do. Check out the sales figures.
I don't drag race my bagger, and I don't try to see what the thing will do at red line in 6th gear. The performance is just fine. Is a Corvette BETTER than a Cadillac? I guess the performance numbers say the 'Vette is better, so the Cadillac buyers are totally misled.
Maybe you missed the point I made that I have OWNED three Wings. The first one I bought new in 1977. I had an '83 Interstate, and an '85 Limited Edition wing. -They both had frame mounted fairings. I speak from experience.
All I am saying is that MCN doesn't like Harleys. :coolblue:
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I've got the bike(s) I want..That's plural.
I've got the girl I want. That's single.
It's great to be me.
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I've got the bike(s) I want..That's plural.
I've got the girl I want. That's single.
It's great to be me.
You can always get more bikes, but having the girl you want is all that matters. It is definitely a great thing to be you. Wish everyone were so positive about life and who they are. :)
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I've got the bike(s) I want..That's plural.
I've got the girl I want. That's single.
It's great to be me.
wise words......
Life is good. Same here on bikes plural, girl, single.
Plus I have lots of beer & know where I can get more.
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Ok, so there is image involved, none of us can deny that. I think the Wing is an amazing bike and will have one someday....til then....
I've seen Harley chic's and Harley chic posters.........
Not looking for any Goldwing chic posters anytime soon.... ;D
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I Love my bike.....
The looks I get from others are "priceless"
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I rode a Honda, and would always buy HD shirts. I've never bought a Honda shirt while riding the HD.
Now there is a truism!!
:apple: :carrot: :jalapeno: :cucumber: :pepper: :pineapple: :mango: :orange: :bananarock: :2vrolijk_21:
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I have been an H-D owner for over five years. I currently own a '03 Road King, a '05 BMW R1200RT and a '98 Honda Magna. I previously owned a '03 V-Rod.
Every year when the new H-Ds are announced and reviewed, I keep waiting for the guffaws when gthe prices are given. Of course, they are elbowed out of the way by the requisite complimentary reviews. Same this year on the CVOs, the annual Emperor’s New Clothes reviews. When is someone going to come out and say (between laughing fits) that up to $35,000 for a cruiser that struggles to break 80 hp is laughable? Even at those prices, almost every buyer will have to spend more to correct shortcomings, like the seats and horns. And why aren’t they called mid-sized?
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy riding my Road King, aside from the pitiful brakes and lack of room in the riding position. At 6’3”, I am too cramped on it for much time in the saddle. I have tried four seats and three different handlebars in various combinations to add room. My BMW and Magna will both run circles around the Road King and are roomier.
The RT tops 100 hp. When you get one, you don’t need to replace anything. After riding the RT, riding the H-D is like driving a BMW and then driving an old Chevy. Both are fun, but who will be first to say that an H-D that is 60% higher in price and puts out a bit less in hp than a BMW, or nearly double the price of a Starliner, 109 VTX is absurd?
Jim Williams, San Antonio, TX.
Mrs We................... :o you've grown.
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Yes, just not taller. I was quoting a news ad, and I'm afraid did not keep the attribution for each post, trying to make them look like separate letters. Eyes of the beholder............... you are a butthead, go put yourself on the list.
:D :D :D
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Yes, just not taller. I was quoting a news ad, and I'm afraid did not keep the attribution for each post, trying to make them look like separate letters. Eyes of the beholder............... you are a butthead, go put yourself on the list.
:D :D :D
:oops: ............. which way is it. :confused5: ;D
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If the guy with the Honda and Harley says that his Magna -which would be a 750- is roomier than his Road King, I think he has a psychological problem rather than a fitment problem. -I'm just glad he isn't riding a CVO. I'm sure all the CVO bikes are smaller than his bicycle- even if he put on a different seat and handlebars. :bananarock:
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OK, one question. HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN ANYONE WITH A HONDA TATOO?????? :nixweiss:
I REST MY CASE.
HARLEY'S BEST , F_ _ K THE REST :2vrolijk_21:
JMHO :apple:
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Hmmmmmm....jap scrap or an HD..........an HD or a CVO Ultra........easy decision and glad I made it. I will own this bike forever and it will be my main HD ride but not my only Harley.
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It's a choice between apples and oranges. I will NEVER depart from my SEFB. From time to time i long for crappy roads. Thus, I plan to buy an expendable bike as stand-by for the bad days:
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If the guy with the Honda and Harley says that his Magna is roomier than his Road King, -which would be a 750- I think he has a psychological problem rather than a fitment problem. -I'm just glad he isn't riding a CVO. I'm sure all the CVO bikes are smaller than his bicycle- even if he put on a different seat and handlebars. :bananarock:
I'm not sure which year the Magna was, but for several years Honda made the Magna V-65 which in the mid '80s was one of the best handling cruiser/sport bikes on the road. It was also one of the fastest bikes on the road. Back in a previous life I rode with a guy that had a V-65 and he was very comfortable riding it and loved it to death. He's 6'-4" and when riding double up his wife was somewhere in the 5'-7" range. It was no problem for him in 3rd gear to lift the front end if he was a bit to happy with the throttle.
Just thought I'd put my 2 cents worth of useless information out there. ;D ;D ;D
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I'm not sure which year the Magna was, but for several years Honda made the Magna V-65 which in the mid '80s was one of the best handling cruiser/sport bikes on the road. It was also one of the fastest bikes on the road. Back in a previous life I rode with a guy that had a V-65 and he was very comfortable riding it and loved it to death. He's 6'-4" and when riding double up his wife was somewhere in the 5'-7" range. It was no problem for him in 3rd gear to lift the front end if he was a bit to happy with the throttle.
Just thought I'd put my 2 cents worth of useless information out there. ;D ;D ;D
I know it's a 750 by the year of the bike. I personally owned two V65 Honda Magnas. I lost my contacts racing a Cadillac (which I blew away) when I passed it at 110mph. First one sucked out of my eye, and before I could do anything, the other one went too! They were cool bikes. Honda also made the V65 Sabre which handled better and was less of a chopper looking bike, I can't remember exactly what year they discontinued the V65s, but all the later ones were just 750s.
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Hey, KEWL Costs $$$$$$.
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Please correct me if I am wrong. I don't think anyone at any of the Harley plants ever took dog fleas, infested them with bubonic plague and floated them over into China on ballons. Never forget who brought you Pearl Harbor, WWII, 9-11 or even the Alamo! :-[ :-[ :-[
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Please correct me if I am wrong. I don't think anyone at any of the Harley plants ever took dog fleas, infested them with bubonic plague and floated them over into China on ballons. Never forget who brought you Pearl Harbor, WWII, 9-11 or even the Alamo! :-[ :-[ :-[
Does this mean that you immediately removed the front forks from your Harley and replaced them with "American" parts? That's just one example, there are many more if we want to go down that road. And BTW, that so-called "American" Harley is now rapidly becoming Chinese as they source more and more of their parts to the lowest (slave labor) bidder. (Hmmmm, wonder if that has anything to do with the obvious decline in quality/reliability over the past few years?)
Tell you what I'd love to be able to do - ride by the domicile of each person who waves the flag when it comes to motorcycles and take a look at the other products they own. Let's see, a Toyota in the driveway, a Sony in the family room, what else?
I still haven't seen anyone effectively refute the contention that H-D's bikes in general, and the CVO's in particular, are overpriced and underperforming relative to most of the competition. :nixweiss:
Jerry
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Does this mean that you immediately removed the front forks from your Harley and replaced them with "American" parts? That's just one example, there are many more if we want to go down that road. And BTW, that so-called "American" Harley is now rapidly becoming Chinese as they source more and more of their parts to the lowest (slave labor) bidder. (Hmmmm, wonder if that has anything to do with the obvious decline in quality/reliability over the past few years?)
Tell you what I'd love to be able to do - ride by the domicile of each person who waves the flag when it comes to motorcycles and take a look at the other products they own. Let's see, a Toyota in the driveway, a Sony in the family room, what else?
I still haven't seen anyone effectively refute the contention that H-D's bikes in general, and the CVO's in particular, are overpriced and underperforming relative to most of the competition. :nixweiss:
Jerry
Jerry...that's because no rational arguement can be made for that particular tenet. They are, in fact, overpriced/underperforming motorcycles compared to almost anything else available...at the same time, until the consumer demands something different from them, the MOCO has no intention of changing. I personally think that time is coming, and we hopefully will see a turnaround in both attitude and corporate philosophy. Blind Faith eventually gets a wakeup call. I intend to keep both my 06's for a long time, but unless HD does something drastic to turn around their quality, dealer attitudes, service philosophy, etc, my next touring bike, if that time comes, will probably be another brand.
The fact of the matter is, it is all but impossible to purchase anything totally "Made in The USA", other than a few Mom and Pop type places scattered here and there. I do seek those type of places out, as I have found in many cases that the quality is indeed superior. Fox Creek is a case in point. I've even found a leather maker who makes rolled dog collars in house that are superior to anything I've seen before, so I'll pay 30 bucks each for two dog collars, but they will be the last ones I have to buy 'till the dogs pass. In my home/basement, sits Subaru, Toyota, Sony, and lord only knows what else made in China, Korea, Japan, Mexico, Africa, Vietnam, etc, etc, blah, blah.
If HD was getting their subbed out parts made in Japan, they'd probably be having fewer problems.
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Interesting thread. As Harley owners, some believe the price point for CVOs is too high in relation to the product offered at said price, but own them anyway. :nixweiss: Reminds me of some Porsche discussions a few years back, but I digress. Buyers remorse usually comes at a point after a sale - one of the logical progressions of the sales process on some items. When the product doesn't perform as expected, it gets amplified. Then buyers either change brands or buying tactics.
Fact of the matter is, HD offers something beyond the raw steel, plastic, metal, and other components, as do other bike manufacturers. BMWs are ugly as bowling shoes to me but a Beemer rider doesn't care about looks or to them they look ok. Sales reflect the success or failure of bike manufacturing ventures, and currently HD enjoys the lion's share of the cruiser market in the USA. If/when consumers decide another brand/product deserves that lion's share, it will shift. BMW & Honda would love to have HD's market share on cruisers. HD would love to have theirs.
To claim CVOs are "overpriced" is an interesting claim. If they are, then buyers would be quite scarce, and CVOs would sit on showroom floors awaiting buyers that never materialized. The MoCo response could be to drop prices, or decrease production to better match demand to sales. A CVO & a regular Harley for that matter are discretionary 2 wheel purchases for many. Other forms of transportation are available at lower costs per mile. Any university town has an army of mopeds or scoots, for example.
The above 3 paragraphs are a semi-wordy way of saying CVOs are priced at what the market will bear. If that price becomes too low for HD to make what they determine they should make in profit then guess what? HD quits making CVOs. Lots of things we use/buy we may consider to be "overpriced" but if we are repeatedly buying them, then that argument rings hollow. The value for some purchases reaches beyond dollars & cents. Otherwise Bentley & Rolls Royce would be museum cars today instead of actively sold brands. Not necessarily defending the MoCo here, but capitalism does not allow long term supply/demand vs price inequities to continue infinitely. Unless its a federally mandated research or price support program or similar.... :)
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If price is based on Pig-iron used and performance output, HD would be out of business. But with HD you buy the "mystique", "lifestyle", "machine with a soul", etc! These are HD's long time die-hard followings. Once the mystique is gone, all bets are off. But that won't happen soon. That's the one thing HD knows they must maintain to do business this way. Even if they can't build a reliable engine! :o
I'd like to see every one of us give up our HD's because they aren't the best made, best performing bikes made. Yeah right! ::)
As much as I bitch about the MoCo, I won't ride anything else. And don't think they don't know this. That's why they get away with continually screwing with us! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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If price is based on Pig-iron used and performance output, HD would be out of business. But with HD you buy the "mystique", "lifestyle", "machine with a soul", etc! These are HD's long time die-hard followings. Once the mystique is gone, all bets are off. But that won't happen soon. That's the one thing HD knows they must maintain to do business this way. Even if they can't build a reliable engine! :o
I'd like to see every one of us give up our HD's because they aren't the best made, best performing bikes made. Yeah right! ::)
As much as I bitch about the MoCo, I won't ride anything else. And don't think they don't know this. That's why they get away with continually screwing with us! ;)
Hoist! 8)
It's just you they're screwing with Howie. 8) They've been watching you, they know where you live. :o
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
:devil:
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All good things must come to an end though...the very first of the Baby Boomers are hitting 62 this year, so I think HD has about 10 more years to pedal the whole "ideology" thing. The coming generations have grown up on Honda/Toyota, and other market brands that are predominantly reliable and trouble free. I think the MOCO will find they are not hung up on the HD "experience" like we are, but rather expect a machine that will stay together, along with decent customer service, for a 35K price tag. They may be initially attracted to the whole Harley "Thing", but the first time it spends 6 weeks at the dealer, and comes back worse than it was, it will be unloaded.
We grew up tinkering around with 57 Chevy's, old VW's, and the like...we're even attracted to the "tinkering" it takes to own a HD bike. Most of the younger people I meet could give a chit (generalization on my part) about trying to "do it themselves".
Harley Davidson will either adapt, or fail, in the long run. I'll probably be too old to ride by then, unless they offer trikes with a place to store some Depends...
That is just my opinion....
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All good things must come to an end though...the very first of the Baby Boomers are hitting 62 this year, so I think HD has about 10 more years to pedal the whole "ideology" thing. The coming generations have grown up on Honda/Toyota, and other market brands that are predominantly reliable and trouble free. I think the MOCO will find they are not hung up on the HD "experience" like we are, but rather expect a machine that will stay together, along with decent customer service, for a 35K price tag. They may be initially attracted to the whole Harley "Thing", but the first time it spends 6 weeks at the dealer, and comes back worse than it was, it will be unloaded.
We grew up tinkering around with 57 Chevy's, old VW's, and the like...we're even attracted to the "tinkering" it takes to own a HD bike. Most of the younger people I meet could give a chit (generalization on my part) about trying to "do it themselves".
Harley Davidson will either adapt, or fail, in the long run. I'll probably be too old to ride by then, unless they offer trikes with a place to store some Depends...
That is just my opinion....
Intersting point. Just out of curiosity, IF MoCo came out with a bagger that used the Revolution engine would anyone buy one? I find it hard to believe MoCo has not offered this quite yet. Maybe they are waiting for the FINAL death of the traditional V-Twin. Be it environmental or quallity issues?
I think I might just be interested in getting one.
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Intersting point. Just out of curiosity, IF MoCo came out with a bagger that used the Revolution engine would anyone buy one? I find it hard to believe MoCo has not offered this quite yet. Maybe they are waiting for the FINAL death of the tradisitional V-Twin. Be it environmental or quallity issues?
I think I might just be interested in getting one.
At this point I doubt I will buy another bagger until there is a water cooled motor on board... I guarantee I will not be the guinea pig for another 110 experience....
Scott
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At this point I doubt I will buy another bagger until there is a water cooled motor on board... I guarantee I will not be the guinea pig for another 110 experience....
Scott
I owned an '03 VROD for a bit. It does apeal to a different crowd. The younger crowd turns thier heads at them. Maybe that is the future.
The only reason I off'd that thing was range and lack of places to put gear for trips. The good point was power! That thing felt and sounded like a Porsche in the higher RPM range.
If that engine had a few more CI's and was in a bagger frame it might just be what the doctor ordered. Someday? :2vrolijk_21:
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At this point I doubt I will buy another bagger until there is a water cooled motor on board... I guarantee I will not be the guinea pig for another 110 experience....
Scott
Interesting! I didn't think one way or another about going thru another "110" thing. I didn't know I'd have to do it this time anyway. But I didn't give it too much thought when I had to build my own engine either. Was I thrilled that I HAD to spend the 5-6 grand on a new motor? HELL NO I WASN'T! But I probably would've spent a chunck of it anyway, even if the 110 was reliable as delivered. HD's lethargic factory engines always needed some help performance wise. Most will do A/C, pipes, cams, maybe headwork, etc. And with a good reliable factory engine, that's all strictly voluntary, instead of mandatory like with 110's. Don't mean you ain't spending the $$$ on you bike anyway! ;)
And no, I won't buy a water-cooled bagger. Probably won't buy a water-cooled HD of any type. Actually, probably won't buy another new bike at all! The bikes I have now should go to the grave with me. We are seeing the end of an era. But that don't mean I'm changing with that! I'll just ride my '07 SERK3 ANTIQUE MOTORCYCLE til the end!!! ;D
Hoist! 8)
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Interesting! I didn't think one way or another about going thru another "110" thing. I didn't know I'd have to do it this time anyway. But I didn't give it too much thought when I had to build my own engine either. Was I thrilled that I HAD to spend the 5-6 grand on a new motor? HELL NO I WASN'T! But I probably would've spent a chunck of it anyway, even if the 110 was reliable as delivered. HD's lethargic factory engines always needed some help performance wise. Most will do A/C, pipes, cams, maybe headwork, etc. And with a good reliable factory engine, that's all strictly voluntary, instead of mandatory like with 110's. Don't mean you ain't spending the $$$ on you bike anyway! ;)
And no, I won't buy a water-cooled bagger. Probably won't buy a water-cooled HD of any type. Actually, probably won't buy another new bike at all! The bikes I have now should go to the grave with me. We are seeing the end of an era. But that don't mean I'm changing with that! I'll just ride my '07 SERK3 ANTIQUE MOTORCYCLE til the end!!! ;D
Hoist! 8)
Howie,
Not me....I have lots of new bikes in my future!! I just think the days of air cooled motors that meet the current and future EPA requirements are about gone... I haven't owned a new bike for more then 3 years in the last 20 years. I have never bought a bike for an investment or worried about resale value. I buy em, ride em, modify em, ride some more, modify some more, sell em and start over... Other then the 110 motors in the current bikes, I have been more then happy with my bikes and the technology improvements over the years. Sure - there are always minor issues - but overall I have enjoyed every minute of owning my bikes. We will see what happens in the next couple of years - but I bet we are getting to the end of the air cooled era... No antiques for me!
Scott
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Thanks to this this site I bought a 00 SERG and it will be my last air cooled Harley. My old kick start custom hardtail is still a hoot but my son has to start it for me (sportster knee). I love everything about my SE but have already run into obsolete replacement parts so its going to be hard to keep it bone stock. My personal feeling is the carborated E-motor was the last good engine Harley made and I will replace my twin cam with one when the time comes. The youngsters are really into old Harleys and have rejected the V-Rod. This situation has created a huge aftermarket industry which will keep the legend alive even if the MoCo doesn't have anything to sell folks anymore.
My next bike will be a liquid cooled SERG or nothing. :furious: Doc
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All good things must come to an end though...the very first of the Baby Boomers are hitting 62 this year, so I think HD has about 10 more years to pedal the whole "ideology" thing. The coming generations have grown up on Honda/Toyota, and other market brands that are predominantly reliable and trouble free. I think the MOCO will find they are not hung up on the HD "experience" like we are, but rather expect a machine that will stay together, along with decent customer service, for a 35K price tag. They may be initially attracted to the whole Harley "Thing", but the first time it spends 6 weeks at the dealer, and comes back worse than it was, it will be unloaded.
We grew up tinkering around with 57 Chevy's, old VW's, and the like...we're even attracted to the "tinkering" it takes to own a HD bike. Most of the younger people I meet could give a chit (generalization on my part) about trying to "do it themselves".
Harley Davidson will either adapt, or fail, in the long run. I'll probably be too old to ride by then, unless they offer trikes with a place to store some Depends...
That is just my opinion....
Agree with you here, Terry. The air cooled big twins were something I dreamed about owning someday, but back when money was REALLY tight, no way in he-double-L could I afford one. So I bought Japanese street bikes & for fun ate Harleys for lunch for a while. We were raised in an era where you could take down an engine with no computer modules to screw with. Big dif now & working on them since the computer era has not been as much fun for me, frankly. But I put up with it since they start on cold mornings better. Simplification of something that used to REALLY aggravate me - fouled plugs on a freezing morning - now a thing of the past.
HD is not attracting younger buyers - so they come out with a trike (09 best guess?) for its perceived increase in overall market share, as any good marketing company would if they are paying attention. The young whippersnappers want more bang for their buck & so far HD has not repositioned itself to attract that buyer demographic. Apologies for the marketing-ese but I've been working on marketing stuff lately. Anyway, HD will either try to re-invent itself again, like it did disastrously in the 70's or spot on like it did in the 80's. When the MoCo goes water cooled, everybody expects big dressers & the like to be w/c. I bet they will look at some of that smaller more powerful engine Honda/Kawasaki/Yamaha/Suzuki market as well. After all, they are chasing HD with cruisers of their own.
By now HD saw your post on Depends ;D ;D ;D & ignored it, but somebody at KURY is working on Depends for HD trikes with matching chrome trim. MoCo will likely offer a more expensive Depends version in 2012, but you will have to buy their adapter to make sure they fit right. :)
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I consider myself a slight dummy. I paid the ultimate price for my CVO; but fu*k it it is what I wanted. In reality I think that the people that think they will get this or that chromed, engine , etc. are fuc*ed 'cause they pay for all this extra stuff when all you REALLY need is a CVO with new pipes.
- Jim