Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[GregKhougaz]

       Story originated in The Detroit News and was picked up by Fox News.  Fox also cited a study from The Center for Disease Control and Prevention. 

I'm wearing mine but it is sometimes nice to "go naked."   

[Midnight Rider]

Too early to tell, IMO.  Plus, fatalities are not the only stat that needs to be looked at in a case like this.  Head injuries...period...should be the stat that tells the most.  Nobody is ever going to convice me that head injuries are less likely without a helmet on than with one on.  It is completely illogical.

Having the ability to choose?  That's a different discussion.

I don't have a dog in that hunt anyway because you'll never catch me riding without a helmet...never.

[Unbalanced]

       Story originated in The Detroit News and was picked up by Fox News.  Fox also cited a study from The Center for Disease Control and Prevention. 

I'm wearing mine but it is sometimes nice to "go naked."   

Not preaching just pointing out that Nekid is nice and was the norm, but after my ordeal and almost dying from head injuries, I can tell you +1 for the helmets.   They can fix most things, but scramble the eggs and your done, i learned the hardway, but was lottery lucky in the end to get my faculties back ... i think.  Some will argue that , but ohh well.      Of the things I lost my mind and memory are on the top of the list.   

[SCRM-R]

A very good friend manages the CT scan department at a large hospital.  She says the staff in her department refers to motorcycle riders that don't wear helmets as "organ donors", because they often show up with serious/fatal head injuries, while their internal organs are in very good condition and suitable donor organs.

[flhse]

That was run yesterday, this was today:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121003/METRO05/210030382/1409/metro/EB-96-ramp-94-reopened-after-motorcycle-crash

The driver of the motorcycle, a male in his 50s from Macomb Township, was not wearing a helmet and was transported to a local hospital with life-threatening injuries, police say.

I'm always riding with my helmet.

Brad

[Dead_Reckoning]

In Maine, I have had the choice for many many years.
My free choice has always been to wear a helmet.

DR

[MAT]

Too early to tell, IMO.  Plus, fatalities are not the only stat that needs to be looked at in a case like this.  Head injuries...period...should be the stat that tells the most.  Nobody is ever going to convince me that head injuries are less likely without a helmet on than with one on.  It is completely illogical.

Having the ability to choose?  That's a different discussion.

I don't have a dog in that hunt anyway because you'll never catch me riding without a helmet...never.

 

[laylonlor]

come on ,now harleys riders should have the right  to look cool with out  a helmet

[Bowman1836]

If you want to wear a helmet well wear one but don't rag on the guy who chooses to go without one. This is the problem to many people think they know whats best for another let him or her decide for themselves. Our freedoms are slowly being taken from us. Ok rant over 

[TIF2]

That was run yesterday, this was today:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121003/METRO05/210030382/1409/metro/EB-96-ramp-94-reopened-after-motorcycle-crash

The driver of the motorcycle, a male in his 50s from Macomb Township, was not wearing a helmet and was transported to a local hospital with life-threatening injuries, police say.

I'm always riding with my helmet.

Brad

And as is the case with all irresponsible reporting, it doesn't mention what the life threatening injuries are a result of.
It strongly imples it - but it clearly could be the result of something where a helmet (or lack thereof) was not a contributing factor.

My guess is it had nothing to do with lack of a helmet.

[Rocketman69]

I'm from Michigan, and the repeal of the helmet law was a welcome change as far as I'm concerned.  You won't hear me say anything like "helmets cause more injuries than they prevent", but I will argue that they shouldn't make laws to protect me from myself.  I've been riding since I was three years old.....no joke.  My dad raced bikes when I was young, and always drilled into our heads that helmets and long pants were always a necessity.....no ifs, ands, or buts about it.  I was always an advocate for helmet use, until I started riding on the street.  While I understand that a full face helmet is supposed to be the safest way to ride, I didn't like the extra weight being on my neck, didn't like the drag created by the wind, and absolutely hated the lack of peripheral vision.  I've been using non-DOT "novelty" helmets for the last several years.  I have no assumption that the helmet I wear would protect my noggin in any substantial way, but it's enough to keep the fuzz off my back.  But, as mentioned above......it's a matter of personal choice.  I always choose to wear my seat belt when in my car, but I don't believe there should be a law governing it.  These laws only exist to generate revenue for the state and local authorities.

And along with what TIF said about the irresponsible reporting:  We had a story a while back where a man and woman were in an accident, and, sadly, neither made it.  The reporter was very quick to point out that neither were wearing helmets.....but failed to mention that they had both been decapitated.

Oddly enough, when someone dies in an accident and they WERE wearing their helmet, nobody mentions that fact.

I crashed my Softail back in April.....went down pretty hard, $7400+ in damages to the bike.  I went to the doctor to get checked out because I was certain that I had broken my shoulder and collar bone.  Everyone in that office, upon learning why I was there, asked if I had been wearing my helmet.  To which I replied in the affirmative, followed by the explanation that it was irrelevant, since at no point during the accident did I hit my head...on anything.....there weren't even any scratches on the helmet.  But they all responded with, "Thank god you were wearing the helmet."..................seriously??

Anyway....end of rant.

[GregKhougaz]

On the issue of personal freedoms, I agree that helmet laws infringe on that freedom.  But at what point does exercise of personal freedom become so much of a burden on society that society can curtail it?  I refer to riders, insured or otherwise that become so crippled from head injuries they become a burden on society.  Who should bear that cost? Or, should the personal right be restricted?  Just noting the issues.  I don't have the answer. 

Non DOT helmets are not the answer but I have one you might like.  HCI makes a DOT Carbon half helmet that is nearly as thin as the novelties.  I sometimes get stopped by riders who ask where they can get one because they think it looks so cool.  The are available online for $118.  Worth the look though statistics show most head injuries are actually to the face. 

[TIF2]

On the issue of personal freedoms, I agree that helmet laws infringe on that freedom.  But at what point does exercise of personal freedom become so much of a burden on society that society can curtail it?  I refer to riders, insured or otherwise that become so crippled from head injuries they become a burden on society.  Who should bear that cost? Or, should the personal right be restricted?  Just noting the issues.  I don't have the answer. 

I appreciate your points here Greg.
However, there is simply no data to support the position that the non-use of helmets contributes materially to a burden on society via sustained injuries related to said non-use.

[GregKhougaz]

Not sure about no data but will agree that the data is disputed.  That's the point of the original article. 

Let's all stay alive!

[Wild Card]

I appreciate your points here Greg.
However, there is simply no data to support the position that the non-use of helmets contributes materially to a burden on society via sustained injuries related to said non-use.

There actually is rather comprehensive data that supports Greg's position.  This study looked at the financial burden of motorcycle injuries to society through increased insurance premiums to pay for those injuried.    

http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/helmet_use.aspx

What MI did was fine by me (I still chose to wear one).  You have the right to chose.  However, they require additional medical coverage to help close this financial disparity.  

[TIF2]

Not sure about no data but will agree that the data is disputed.  That's the point of the original article. 

Let's all stay alive!

Agreed with both of your statements here.

[TIF2]

There actually is rather comprehensive data that supports Greg's position.  This study looked at the financial burden of motorcycle injuries to society through increased insurance premiums to pay for those injuried.    

http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/helmet_use.aspx

What MI did was fine by me (I still chose to wear one).  You have the right to chose.  However, they require additional medical coverage to help close this financial disparity.  

It's an insurance company.
That study will never be independent.

Look at reply #15 here:
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=63374.15

I appreciate that studies independence - if you read through it all, you'll find that helmet use make little difference. It certainly substatiates the argument that "non-helmet use" does not, in any way, create a burden to society.

[Midnight Rider]

Here's a point to consider:  Most of us have family...wives, kids, parents, whatever...does anyone consider the effect a life changing head injury would have on them?   Personal freedom is not the only consideration unless you just don't GAS about how what happens to you might impact those who love you.  Personal choice/freedom can have consequences that impact others in a negative way.  It's just something to think about.

Statisically, I'm sure the number of motorcyclists who are a "burden" on society is a drop in the bucket compared to some other things, but it's not a drop in the bucket to their family/friends.  I would prefer that my wife not spend her remaining days emptyting my drool bucket and changing my diapers because of a choice I made that could have had a different outcome if I considered her in the equation.  Not to mention the financial devastation in their personal life from loss of income, medical costs, etc.  It could be considered selfish to put yourself above others who love you.

Individual cases or accidents can be sited ad nauseum, but the fact is that IF you go down, and IF you hit your head on the pavement, your odds of not being injured on your head are better wearing a helmet.

[Wild Card]

It's an insurance company.
That study will never be independent.

Look at reply #15 here:
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=63374.15

I appreciate that studies independence - if you read through it all, you'll find that helmet use make little difference. It certainly substatiates the argument that "non-helmet use" does not, in any way, create a burden to society.

Well, technically, they've culled multiple studies from the exact independent source in your link (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) and reported on them - see the references.  None of the studies were conducted by themselves (who claim independence, but you're correct to discredit them in part since they are funded by insurance institutes).

So yeah, there is an argument to made for both sides because they are so close.  But, in the end, both of our links show a slightly higher burden on public funding of motorcycle injuries in instances where the rider wasn't helmeted.  

Hell, I never wore a helmet until I married.  I still support everyone's right to go helmet free.  

[TIF2]

Hell, I never wore a helmet until I married.  I still support everyone's right to go helmet free.  

Funny thing about marriage, ain't it?
I gained 25lbs the first month - no idea why  

And me too ... should be the choice of the individual in my opinion.
I do support insurance mandates, and even age restrictions.

But beyond that - I've never been one to say someone can't jump off a cliff (lol).

As Greg said ... let's all just stay alive!!!

[trwtow]

michigan resident also. rode this summer without helmet on some of the hot days back roads low traffic rides. expressway hi speeds etc helmet required got to say enjoyed no helmet the most. wife on back always wears helmet her choice. i do like havin the choice.  Terry

[grc]

I'm all for freedom of choice, with one caveat.  I'm for freedom of choice as long as your choice doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone else.  But that doesn't mean I won't try to convince you that wearing a helmet is much smarter than running around with a bare head.  Some folks seem to worry more about looking dorky than they do safety.  If they are so insecure that looking cool is more important than preventing possible head injuries, so be it.  But trying to argue that helmets don't make any difference is just pure hogwash.  The same goes for those old shop worn claims about peripheral vision (my full face helmet does not limit peripheral vision at all, unless you have better than 180° peripheral vision which I seriously doubt). 

This debate has been going on for decades now, and some of the same old BS from the 60's and 70's still keeps coming back like some of the bad fashions of those days.  It won't change, and there's not much sense in any of us getting all heated and emotional about it now.  I try to avoid commenting on this subject anymore because most folks are totally rigid in their opinion and it's pretty much a waste of breath (or virtual ink) to keep beating a dead horse.  But when someone tries to float the BS idea that helmets have no real value, or the really ridiculous idea that fatalities actually decreased after repealing a helmet law due to that alone, it is very hard to not comment.

Anyone can take a bunch of statistics and manipulate them to prove their preconceived opinion.  It's done every day in all parts of the private and public sector.  That old saying about figures don't lie but liars figure has a very good basis in fact.


Jerry

[DCFIREMANN]

Here's a point to consider:  Most of us have family...wives, kids, parents, whatever...does anyone consider the effect a life changing head injury would have on them?   Personal freedom is not the only consideration unless you just don't GAS about how what happens to you might impact those who love you.  Personal choice/freedom can have consequences that impact others in a negative way.  It's just something to think about.

Statisically, I'm sure the number of motorcyclists who are a "burden" on society is a drop in the bucket compared to some other things, but it's not a drop in the bucket to their family/friends.  I would prefer that my wife not spend her remaining days emptyting my drool bucket and changing my diapers because of a choice I made that could have had a different outcome if I considered her in the equation.  Not to mention the financial devastation in their personal life from loss of income, medical costs, etc.  It could be considered selfish to put yourself above others who love you.

Individual cases or accidents can be sited ad nauseum, but the fact is that IF you go down, and IF you hit your head on the pavement, your odds of not being injured on your head are better wearing a helmet.

If there is no helmet law it is still a choice that someone can make. I perfer to have the choice. If I am riding Interstate I always wear one. If just running around town I may or may not. Yes I consider my loved ones but I don't think I am being selfish. I like the freedom. It's kinda like people who smoke. They know how it can and will impact your health and your life but they still continue to do it. In that case are they being selfish to their loved ones??? Just a thought.

I ran into burning buildings ( hundreds of them) for a living. Yes I knew it was dangerous when I took the oath. Did I consider my loved ones? NOPE!!!! It was a JOB I wanted to do and loved it. Retired now and I still love it. I guess it's the rush you get.

Now getting to the point of this thread. I worked on a Heavy Rescue for most of my career. We did it all including accidents. I saw a lot of things that would make the average person HURL!!!! No brag just fact. I saw a lot of motorcycle accidents as well. DC has a helmet law. Terry you are correct if you go down and hit your hear without a helmet you chances are greatly reduced. But also riding a MOTORCYCLE and not in a cage also GREATLY REDUCES your chances. Even in the city with a 25 mph speed limit on 80% of the cities roads I saw a lot of deaths. In both cages and bikes. Hell in that city just walking greatly reduces your chances of survival!!!!

Bottom line. I like everyone on this board loves to ride. I think we should all have the freedom of choice. I think as we get older we get wiser. Yes wearing a helmet greatly increases your chances of survival in AN ACCIDENT INVOLVING A HEAD INJURY!!!!! We are all adults and should have the right and the freedom to make the choice. I know most of us will make the choice to wear a helmet.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DaBigNuttedMan]

I say let those who ride decide, a huge part of the contraversy  with motorcycle helmets is opinions and votes for helmet law from people that dont ride,  if helmets can save a society some burden by eliminating some head trauma, and if helmets dont hinder vision-fatigue-enhanced inertia- hearing and so on..............how come the same people pushing LAW at others who ride bikes, dont want a helmet law for driving a car?   Sure would save a lot more head trauma  Bazillions more cars than bikes on the roads,  it would certainly be a contributor to less head cases for insurance companys and familys.  Cars could easily be built with a little more headroom eventhough quite a few already have plenty.  If all the people that push helmets had to buy and wear one considerd this about driving their car I wonder how they would see it, really hot days sweaty helmet hairdoos, cant hear cant see hurts my neck cant hear the stereo, cant hear the ambulance............I think they'd say  no.   I do wear my helmet sometimes, by choice. like I wear a jacket or gloves.
   I know an old man who recently got pulled over by a bike cop who was going to write him a seatbelt ticket, the cop asked him what are you laughing so hard about?   Kenny the old man said through broken and real hard laughter  your riding a motorcycle! and your gonna write me a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt!  the cop gave him a warning.


Please keep in mind I'm not against helmets or seatbelts I am against lost freedom..............Give me liberty or give me death.

[Para Bellum]

I was wondering: does the gov't require helmets for sky-diving, mountain climbing, river rafting, skiing, bungee jumping, etc?  I mean gov't, with laws, not the insurance companies (or the business providing the service).  After all, accidents in those activities have a head injury risk, with the same result on society.

So if they don't have laws for those activities, why force it on motorcyclists?  I willingly wear a helmet at times, but there are times when I'd like to have freedom of choice, such as in stop and go traffic in hot weather.  The gov't should only be involved in functions like national defense, foreign affairs, and crimes--real crimes, not "you might hurt 'society' if you have an accident and if you hit your head and it might be enough to make you a vegetable."

Many people make the choice to stop riding (or never start) when they get married and/or have kids because of the potential effects on their family.  I support that as a Personal Choice, not mandated by gov't.  Same thing with helmets and firearms.

[Midnight Rider]

I was wondering: does the gov't require helmets for sky-diving, mountain climbing, river rafting, skiing, bungee jumping, etc?  I mean gov't, with laws, not the insurance companies (or the business providing the service).  After all, accidents in those activities have a head injury risk, with the same result on society.

So if they don't have laws for those activities, why force it on motorcyclists?  I willingly wear a helmet at times, but there are times when I'd like to have freedom of choice, such as in stop and go traffic in hot weather.  The gov't should only be involved in functions like national defense, foreign affairs, and crimes--real crimes, not "you might hurt 'society' if you have an accident and if you hit your head and it might be enough to make you a vegetable."

Many people make the choice to stop riding (or never start) when they get married and/or have kids because of the potential effects on their family.  I support that as a Personal Choice, not mandated by gov't.  Same thing with helmets and firearms.

Not taking a side here, but one reason is most motorcycle riding is done on public roads, paid for by the government.  Almost 100% of all people who paddle a whitewater Kayak I've ever seen wear a helmet in case they go "Trout Scouting" on the way down the river.  Same with most real mountain climbers, sky divers, etc.  You see more and more people wearing helmets while snow skiing as well.  Just sayin'...

[FLSTFI Dave]

I for one am all for the freedom of choice on helmets.  I doubt that motorcycle riders injured without a helmet are a bigger burden on society than all the people on the government handouts.

I also think many of the jobs I have held are far more dangerous than riding a motorcycle with out a helmet.  For many years working the flight deck of an air craft carrier was rated in the top ten most dangerous, I did that for many years.  I know work drilling for oil, off shore another high danger job.

In a major city, or heavy traffic I choose to wear a helmet.  A nice ride on back two lane roads, I love the freedom of choice.  I calculate the risk I am willing to take.  I know the risk, my wife is a MSF instructor, and a Riders edge coach. 

My kids are grown and out of the house.  I have lots of medical insurance, and other insurance.  My wife would be very well taken care of should the unthinkable happen.

[grc]

For those who constantly argue that government should have no right to force us to protect ourselves, and I'll admit I was one of you for many years in my youth, why don't you go and talk to some of the hundreds of thousands of people who have survived what would have been fatal crashes in their automobiles over the past 20 years?  Ask them if they think the government shouldn't have required seat belts, air bags, crush zones, and all the other mandated safety stuff that has caused a huge drop in fatalities even as there are more drivers on the road, many of whom drive distracted or worse.  

The same thing applies in many parts of our lives, like mandatory safety devices and training in industry.  Deaths and serious injuries have been declining for a long time as rules and regulations have forced employers to require their workers to partake of safety equipment and training.  Is it a pain to have to wear a safety harness when working at heights for instance?  Sure it is, right up until you slip and fall and the harness keeps you from dropping several stories to your death.  

The whole macho "freedom" thing is a strictly emotional response.  I implore folks to engage the thinking side of the brain before allowing their emotions to ruin their lives and the lives of their loved ones.  Life is already a crap shoot, there is no good reason to reduce your odds by ignoring simple safety equipment.  That is especially true when the reason for not using the equipment is rooted in vanity and machismo.

JMHO - Jerry

[Midnight Rider]

As usual, well said, Jerry.

I don't know how many people here ski...I'm no expert, but I can do most Blue runs and some Blacks.  The first year, when I was learning, I did not wear a helmet.  After reading about some people having fatal injuries after their encounters with trees, I decided to start wearing a helmet.  I don't know how many know what a "face plant" is while skiing, but it's when you fall forward, face first.  The first trip I took after getting the helmet, I was skiing a fast Blue course in the Spring, so the snow, even though groomed, was very icy.  I was running pretty fast and caught an edge with my right ski.  Did a big face plant.  I had a 2" X 3" scrape on the front edge of the helmet, exactly where my frontal cortex is, that looks like it hit pavement.  There is no doubt it saved me from a serious, painful head injury.  I keep the helmet hanging in my workshop just as a reminder...

[spydglide]

As usual, well said, Jerry.

I don't know how many people here ski...I'm no expert, but I can do most Blue runs and some Blacks.  The first year, when I was learning, I did not wear a helmet.  After reading about some people having fatal injuries after their encounters with trees, I decided to start wearing a helmet.  I don't know how many know what a "face plant" is while skiing, but it's when you fall forward, face first.  The first trip I took after getting the helmet, I was skiing a fast Blue course in the Spring, so the snow, even though groomed, was very icy.  I was running pretty fast and caught an edge with my right ski.  Did a big face plant.  I had a 2" X 3" scrape on the front edge of the helmet, exactly where my frontal cortex is, that looks like it hit pavement.  There is no doubt it saved me from a serious, painful head injury.  I keep the helmet hanging in my workshop just as a reminder...

'a man of all seasons'... .....TC, I think you've gotten old enough to stay off the ice now.  har.  spyder

[Midnight Rider]

'a man of all seasons'... .....TC, I think you've gotten old enough to stay off the ice now.  har.  spyder

Yea...it's been about 4 years since I last skied.  I'm not in good enough shape right now to do it...it's pretty demanding physically.  But I joined the local YMCA here in my "new" town to try and work on my stamina/strength a bit, so I may go again one of these upcoming years.  I've still got my custom fitted boots...couldn't bring myself to get rid of them in the move.

[Jerry/MD]

I'm all for personal choice but I will ALWAYS wear a helmet.

I would be curious to know if there is a difference between insurance rates of States with and without helmet laws.

Jerry