Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[TIF2]

Not sure about no data but will agree that the data is disputed.  That's the point of the original article. 

Let's all stay alive!

Agreed with both of your statements here.

[TIF2]

There actually is rather comprehensive data that supports Greg's position.  This study looked at the financial burden of motorcycle injuries to society through increased insurance premiums to pay for those injuried.    

http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/helmet_use.aspx

What MI did was fine by me (I still chose to wear one).  You have the right to chose.  However, they require additional medical coverage to help close this financial disparity.  

It's an insurance company.
That study will never be independent.

Look at reply #15 here:
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=63374.15

I appreciate that studies independence - if you read through it all, you'll find that helmet use make little difference. It certainly substatiates the argument that "non-helmet use" does not, in any way, create a burden to society.

[Midnight Rider]

Here's a point to consider:  Most of us have family...wives, kids, parents, whatever...does anyone consider the effect a life changing head injury would have on them?   Personal freedom is not the only consideration unless you just don't GAS about how what happens to you might impact those who love you.  Personal choice/freedom can have consequences that impact others in a negative way.  It's just something to think about.

Statisically, I'm sure the number of motorcyclists who are a "burden" on society is a drop in the bucket compared to some other things, but it's not a drop in the bucket to their family/friends.  I would prefer that my wife not spend her remaining days emptyting my drool bucket and changing my diapers because of a choice I made that could have had a different outcome if I considered her in the equation.  Not to mention the financial devastation in their personal life from loss of income, medical costs, etc.  It could be considered selfish to put yourself above others who love you.

Individual cases or accidents can be sited ad nauseum, but the fact is that IF you go down, and IF you hit your head on the pavement, your odds of not being injured on your head are better wearing a helmet.

[Wild Card]

It's an insurance company.
That study will never be independent.

Look at reply #15 here:
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=63374.15

I appreciate that studies independence - if you read through it all, you'll find that helmet use make little difference. It certainly substatiates the argument that "non-helmet use" does not, in any way, create a burden to society.

Well, technically, they've culled multiple studies from the exact independent source in your link (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) and reported on them - see the references.  None of the studies were conducted by themselves (who claim independence, but you're correct to discredit them in part since they are funded by insurance institutes).

So yeah, there is an argument to made for both sides because they are so close.  But, in the end, both of our links show a slightly higher burden on public funding of motorcycle injuries in instances where the rider wasn't helmeted.  

Hell, I never wore a helmet until I married.  I still support everyone's right to go helmet free.  

[TIF2]

Hell, I never wore a helmet until I married.  I still support everyone's right to go helmet free.  

Funny thing about marriage, ain't it?
I gained 25lbs the first month - no idea why  

And me too ... should be the choice of the individual in my opinion.
I do support insurance mandates, and even age restrictions.

But beyond that - I've never been one to say someone can't jump off a cliff (lol).

As Greg said ... let's all just stay alive!!!

[trwtow]

michigan resident also. rode this summer without helmet on some of the hot days back roads low traffic rides. expressway hi speeds etc helmet required got to say enjoyed no helmet the most. wife on back always wears helmet her choice. i do like havin the choice.  Terry

[grc]

I'm all for freedom of choice, with one caveat.  I'm for freedom of choice as long as your choice doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone else.  But that doesn't mean I won't try to convince you that wearing a helmet is much smarter than running around with a bare head.  Some folks seem to worry more about looking dorky than they do safety.  If they are so insecure that looking cool is more important than preventing possible head injuries, so be it.  But trying to argue that helmets don't make any difference is just pure hogwash.  The same goes for those old shop worn claims about peripheral vision (my full face helmet does not limit peripheral vision at all, unless you have better than 180° peripheral vision which I seriously doubt). 

This debate has been going on for decades now, and some of the same old BS from the 60's and 70's still keeps coming back like some of the bad fashions of those days.  It won't change, and there's not much sense in any of us getting all heated and emotional about it now.  I try to avoid commenting on this subject anymore because most folks are totally rigid in their opinion and it's pretty much a waste of breath (or virtual ink) to keep beating a dead horse.  But when someone tries to float the BS idea that helmets have no real value, or the really ridiculous idea that fatalities actually decreased after repealing a helmet law due to that alone, it is very hard to not comment.

Anyone can take a bunch of statistics and manipulate them to prove their preconceived opinion.  It's done every day in all parts of the private and public sector.  That old saying about figures don't lie but liars figure has a very good basis in fact.


Jerry

[DCFIREMANN]

Here's a point to consider:  Most of us have family...wives, kids, parents, whatever...does anyone consider the effect a life changing head injury would have on them?   Personal freedom is not the only consideration unless you just don't GAS about how what happens to you might impact those who love you.  Personal choice/freedom can have consequences that impact others in a negative way.  It's just something to think about.

Statisically, I'm sure the number of motorcyclists who are a "burden" on society is a drop in the bucket compared to some other things, but it's not a drop in the bucket to their family/friends.  I would prefer that my wife not spend her remaining days emptyting my drool bucket and changing my diapers because of a choice I made that could have had a different outcome if I considered her in the equation.  Not to mention the financial devastation in their personal life from loss of income, medical costs, etc.  It could be considered selfish to put yourself above others who love you.

Individual cases or accidents can be sited ad nauseum, but the fact is that IF you go down, and IF you hit your head on the pavement, your odds of not being injured on your head are better wearing a helmet.

If there is no helmet law it is still a choice that someone can make. I perfer to have the choice. If I am riding Interstate I always wear one. If just running around town I may or may not. Yes I consider my loved ones but I don't think I am being selfish. I like the freedom. It's kinda like people who smoke. They know how it can and will impact your health and your life but they still continue to do it. In that case are they being selfish to their loved ones??? Just a thought.

I ran into burning buildings ( hundreds of them) for a living. Yes I knew it was dangerous when I took the oath. Did I consider my loved ones? NOPE!!!! It was a JOB I wanted to do and loved it. Retired now and I still love it. I guess it's the rush you get.

Now getting to the point of this thread. I worked on a Heavy Rescue for most of my career. We did it all including accidents. I saw a lot of things that would make the average person HURL!!!! No brag just fact. I saw a lot of motorcycle accidents as well. DC has a helmet law. Terry you are correct if you go down and hit your hear without a helmet you chances are greatly reduced. But also riding a MOTORCYCLE and not in a cage also GREATLY REDUCES your chances. Even in the city with a 25 mph speed limit on 80% of the cities roads I saw a lot of deaths. In both cages and bikes. Hell in that city just walking greatly reduces your chances of survival!!!!

Bottom line. I like everyone on this board loves to ride. I think we should all have the freedom of choice. I think as we get older we get wiser. Yes wearing a helmet greatly increases your chances of survival in AN ACCIDENT INVOLVING A HEAD INJURY!!!!! We are all adults and should have the right and the freedom to make the choice. I know most of us will make the choice to wear a helmet.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DaBigNuttedMan]

I say let those who ride decide, a huge part of the contraversy  with motorcycle helmets is opinions and votes for helmet law from people that dont ride,  if helmets can save a society some burden by eliminating some head trauma, and if helmets dont hinder vision-fatigue-enhanced inertia- hearing and so on..............how come the same people pushing LAW at others who ride bikes, dont want a helmet law for driving a car?   Sure would save a lot more head trauma  Bazillions more cars than bikes on the roads,  it would certainly be a contributor to less head cases for insurance companys and familys.  Cars could easily be built with a little more headroom eventhough quite a few already have plenty.  If all the people that push helmets had to buy and wear one considerd this about driving their car I wonder how they would see it, really hot days sweaty helmet hairdoos, cant hear cant see hurts my neck cant hear the stereo, cant hear the ambulance............I think they'd say  no.   I do wear my helmet sometimes, by choice. like I wear a jacket or gloves.
   I know an old man who recently got pulled over by a bike cop who was going to write him a seatbelt ticket, the cop asked him what are you laughing so hard about?   Kenny the old man said through broken and real hard laughter  your riding a motorcycle! and your gonna write me a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt!  the cop gave him a warning.


Please keep in mind I'm not against helmets or seatbelts I am against lost freedom..............Give me liberty or give me death.

[Para Bellum]

I was wondering: does the gov't require helmets for sky-diving, mountain climbing, river rafting, skiing, bungee jumping, etc?  I mean gov't, with laws, not the insurance companies (or the business providing the service).  After all, accidents in those activities have a head injury risk, with the same result on society.

So if they don't have laws for those activities, why force it on motorcyclists?  I willingly wear a helmet at times, but there are times when I'd like to have freedom of choice, such as in stop and go traffic in hot weather.  The gov't should only be involved in functions like national defense, foreign affairs, and crimes--real crimes, not "you might hurt 'society' if you have an accident and if you hit your head and it might be enough to make you a vegetable."

Many people make the choice to stop riding (or never start) when they get married and/or have kids because of the potential effects on their family.  I support that as a Personal Choice, not mandated by gov't.  Same thing with helmets and firearms.

[Midnight Rider]

I was wondering: does the gov't require helmets for sky-diving, mountain climbing, river rafting, skiing, bungee jumping, etc?  I mean gov't, with laws, not the insurance companies (or the business providing the service).  After all, accidents in those activities have a head injury risk, with the same result on society.

So if they don't have laws for those activities, why force it on motorcyclists?  I willingly wear a helmet at times, but there are times when I'd like to have freedom of choice, such as in stop and go traffic in hot weather.  The gov't should only be involved in functions like national defense, foreign affairs, and crimes--real crimes, not "you might hurt 'society' if you have an accident and if you hit your head and it might be enough to make you a vegetable."

Many people make the choice to stop riding (or never start) when they get married and/or have kids because of the potential effects on their family.  I support that as a Personal Choice, not mandated by gov't.  Same thing with helmets and firearms.

Not taking a side here, but one reason is most motorcycle riding is done on public roads, paid for by the government.  Almost 100% of all people who paddle a whitewater Kayak I've ever seen wear a helmet in case they go "Trout Scouting" on the way down the river.  Same with most real mountain climbers, sky divers, etc.  You see more and more people wearing helmets while snow skiing as well.  Just sayin'...

[FLSTFI Dave]

I for one am all for the freedom of choice on helmets.  I doubt that motorcycle riders injured without a helmet are a bigger burden on society than all the people on the government handouts.

I also think many of the jobs I have held are far more dangerous than riding a motorcycle with out a helmet.  For many years working the flight deck of an air craft carrier was rated in the top ten most dangerous, I did that for many years.  I know work drilling for oil, off shore another high danger job.

In a major city, or heavy traffic I choose to wear a helmet.  A nice ride on back two lane roads, I love the freedom of choice.  I calculate the risk I am willing to take.  I know the risk, my wife is a MSF instructor, and a Riders edge coach. 

My kids are grown and out of the house.  I have lots of medical insurance, and other insurance.  My wife would be very well taken care of should the unthinkable happen.

[grc]

For those who constantly argue that government should have no right to force us to protect ourselves, and I'll admit I was one of you for many years in my youth, why don't you go and talk to some of the hundreds of thousands of people who have survived what would have been fatal crashes in their automobiles over the past 20 years?  Ask them if they think the government shouldn't have required seat belts, air bags, crush zones, and all the other mandated safety stuff that has caused a huge drop in fatalities even as there are more drivers on the road, many of whom drive distracted or worse.  

The same thing applies in many parts of our lives, like mandatory safety devices and training in industry.  Deaths and serious injuries have been declining for a long time as rules and regulations have forced employers to require their workers to partake of safety equipment and training.  Is it a pain to have to wear a safety harness when working at heights for instance?  Sure it is, right up until you slip and fall and the harness keeps you from dropping several stories to your death.  

The whole macho "freedom" thing is a strictly emotional response.  I implore folks to engage the thinking side of the brain before allowing their emotions to ruin their lives and the lives of their loved ones.  Life is already a crap shoot, there is no good reason to reduce your odds by ignoring simple safety equipment.  That is especially true when the reason for not using the equipment is rooted in vanity and machismo.

JMHO - Jerry

[Midnight Rider]

As usual, well said, Jerry.

I don't know how many people here ski...I'm no expert, but I can do most Blue runs and some Blacks.  The first year, when I was learning, I did not wear a helmet.  After reading about some people having fatal injuries after their encounters with trees, I decided to start wearing a helmet.  I don't know how many know what a "face plant" is while skiing, but it's when you fall forward, face first.  The first trip I took after getting the helmet, I was skiing a fast Blue course in the Spring, so the snow, even though groomed, was very icy.  I was running pretty fast and caught an edge with my right ski.  Did a big face plant.  I had a 2" X 3" scrape on the front edge of the helmet, exactly where my frontal cortex is, that looks like it hit pavement.  There is no doubt it saved me from a serious, painful head injury.  I keep the helmet hanging in my workshop just as a reminder...

[spydglide]

As usual, well said, Jerry.

I don't know how many people here ski...I'm no expert, but I can do most Blue runs and some Blacks.  The first year, when I was learning, I did not wear a helmet.  After reading about some people having fatal injuries after their encounters with trees, I decided to start wearing a helmet.  I don't know how many know what a "face plant" is while skiing, but it's when you fall forward, face first.  The first trip I took after getting the helmet, I was skiing a fast Blue course in the Spring, so the snow, even though groomed, was very icy.  I was running pretty fast and caught an edge with my right ski.  Did a big face plant.  I had a 2" X 3" scrape on the front edge of the helmet, exactly where my frontal cortex is, that looks like it hit pavement.  There is no doubt it saved me from a serious, painful head injury.  I keep the helmet hanging in my workshop just as a reminder...

'a man of all seasons'... .....TC, I think you've gotten old enough to stay off the ice now.  har.  spyder