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[HD Street Performance]

All good points
The factory spec for lateral rod clearance maximum is .020 IIRC. Did you see them check this? I am just a bit skeptical. We see other crank issues but this one seems to be rabid at this dealership and not at all common in the rest of the community.
One other point, I don't believe the softails received heads as part of the 2007 program update just the "A" motor baggers.

[grc]

All good points
The factory spec for lateral rod clearance maximum is .020 IIRC. Did you see them check this? I am just a bit skeptical. We see other crank issues but this one seems to be rabid at this dealership and not at all common in the rest of the community.
One other point, I don't believe the softails received heads as part of the 2007 program update just the "A" motor baggers.

Correct Don.  However, I think that was a different thread.  The Softies only got ACR's and gaskets, no heads.  Somehow Harley must have found a way to put all the bad heads on the engines that went into the Touring models only. 

Jerry

[CowboyBagger]

I contemplated the same decision as you.  I'm doing an engine build and I had about 30 members recommend to me to get the bottom end done while I was at it.  I really didn't want to spend the extra 1700 even though I knew they were correct.  In my mind, here is how I made the decision:

If I stayed with stock:  I would always have the feeling that the SOB would be flying apart any second.

If Darkhorse did the bottom end:  I'll have the feeling that this SOB is going to last for ev er!

I chose the latter.

Cowboy

[Fired00d]

'Spoke with the General Manager, Service Manager, and The Tech that works on all my CVOs at length, at separate times, and they all talked me out of going aftermarket or modding (Darkhorse etc...) the bottom end with "preventive measures" for a variety of reasons. They know I'm willing to spend the $$$ if it makes sense, not just for braggin'.

The biggest reasons are that the '09 has 4.5 years of ESP left  and I travel a good bit.

Also I have faith that The Tech will set all of the tolerances properly (better than the factory) as I have never had a problem after he has worked on any of my CVOs over the years.

I am fortunate to have a good relationship with Heritage HD in Ft. Walton

'Am disappointed with The MoCo though~a bad crank at <10k mi.

'Just lucky I guess...

I agree with you all that Darkhorse or Revolution is the way to go. And my dealer will allow me to do anything I want with the situation, (as long as I pay the difference for the upgrades~which I think is more than fair) SE crank / SE crank w/ mods, stock crank, stock crank w/ mods, S&S crank, Darkhorse crank etc... and they would warranty that work out of their dealership, out of their pocket, if they do the install.

Here is where the big "but" comes into play... I travel a good bit, If I am on the road and have a problem and have to go to a "foreign dealer" and the ESP rep or a "foreign dealer" sees a welded / aftermarket crank, than I am SOL and have to eat it. Whereas ESP will replace stock cranks 'till the cows come home... . Going after market is just not in MY "risk / reward" scenario on this bike. If the crank fails again, as soon as the original did, (<10k) then I might rethink my strategy.

A good friend of mine that has been averaging 30k+ miles/year since '06 had the rod bearings go out in his Skunk at 16k, he is going the Darkhorse, Carrillo, Lefty, Timken, Fueling, 113 etc... route and I'm sure that it will be bada$$ as his two previous bikes were. It's just not in MY scenario.

As noted previously, there is 4.5 years of ESP remaining on the '09 SERG.

First off it's your money and your bike but several things (which I have highlighted above) really stick out for me. Like most of us sounds like you are (said w/the utmost respect) anal about who touches/works on your bike (present poster included ). With that said and taking into consideration your statement of you traveling a lot would you really want a "foreign" mechanic/technician at a "foreign" dealership doing major repairs on your bike??... I wouldn't!!! I've always been of the mindset that if my bike were to break down on the road and require major mechanical repairs I would ship, trailer, tow, whatever my bike back to the dealership/shop/technician that I feel most comfortable with and to further validate that reasoning it adds insurance so to speak if there are complications/problems down the road resulting from that work I can take it back to the dealership/shop that did the work. By your own words you have a good relationship w/your dealer, trust the technician that is going to work on your bike, and that dealership/technician will back there work (whether it be a stock crank or any other crank) to me it would be no way I wouldn't want to have the most reliable and proven parts in my bike.

Anyway as I started this post... it's your money, your bike.... best of luck with whichever way you go.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[FlaHeatWave]

All good points
The factory spec for lateral rod clearance maximum is .020 IIRC. Did you see them check this? I am just a bit skeptical. We see other crank issues but this one seems to be rabid at this dealership and not at all common in the rest of the community.
One other point, I don't believe the softails received heads as part of the 2007 program update just the "A" motor baggers.

I've never owned a softail.
The GM told me what the specs are and what my '09 SERG measured at, I didn't committ them to memory as I was going to look at it myself, (I was a mechanic for the better part of 20 yrs, 'worked mostly on boats, cars, my bikes, and heavy equipment, boats & cars were at dealerships) and when I moved the front rod laterally, then did the same to the rear, there was over 2x the play in the front. I knew it had to be out of spec, and fixin' to cut loose. If I was doing the work, I would have measured it properly as I'm sure my Tech did

As far as "rabid at this dealership" my good friend's Skunk had the rods cut loose earlier this month at 16k mi. in central Mississippi, and he is from the east coast...   

[FlaHeatWave]

Your dealership should get up to speed with the services that Darkhorse Crankworks(their name says what they do)offers.
Once they attend to the needs of that crank, you WILL NOT, have an issue with that, and your dealer can sleep well, knowing they took care of their customer with the world-class crank repair, that the Moco only can have wet dreams about.
Scott

My dealer knows that Darkhorse is the best in the business and Revolution ain't bad either. I'm not worried that the Darkhorse will cut loose, just that something else will, and take out the Darkhorse artwork.

And I totally agree with you that the Darkhorse product is exponentially superior to the MoCo's! The MoCo should weld the cranks at the factory. (although I don't know if welding would prevent the rod bearing failure?)

The SE crank installed in my FXDWG2 is a work of art, it has billet H-beam rods and wheels. If I saw one of those in the current SE catalogue, I would have one in a NY second!!!

Scott, do you have any idea what is actually causing the rod bearings to fail on stock / mild build motors??? my '09 SERG is stock w/ pipe, tune, ac. My friend's Skunk is SE Stage III.

If I could talk the folks at ESP into covering just the labor on a Darkhorse if it had to be replaced, I would be "all in"

[FlaHeatWave]

If your warranty is done, or you don't have an extended one, there is no way I'd put a stock crank back in if the motor was torn down that far, it's not the dealer who will be out the $$$ two years down the road when it happens all over again.

As posted earlier 4.5 years remaining

[FlaHeatWave]

It would appear you have already made up your mind about how you plan to proceed, so I suppose I shouldn't waste your time with another post.  But I couldn't ignore a comment you made earlier about your tech setting tolerances better than the factory.  "I have faith that The Tech will set all of the tolerances properly (better than the factory)"

Unless your guy is equipped to break down the flywheel assembly (crankshaft), replace the rods, bearings, and crankpin, and press it all back together, he won't be setting the tolerances of the flywheel assembly, Harley will.  I'm assuming your dealer is like most these days, they just replace the entire assembly and don't rebuild them like they did in the EVO era.

A flywheel assembly from Harley will be very likely to have the same poor tolerances as most seem to have these days, as well as the cheapened parts, so there is no guarantee it will be any better than your original.  I don't know about you, but if I were out traveling somewhere and it failed again, the fact that the ESP might cover it again wouldn't offset the inconvenience and general feeling of being highly pizzed off.  While stuff can still happen even with the Darkhorse rebuilt assemblies, the odds are much better for a failure free future with their stuff versus Harley's crap.  And I'm pretty sure they offer a warrantee as well.

JMHO - Jerry

Jerry,
Are you kidding me??? When was the last time you saw a truing jig in a Dealership???LOL!!! All 99% of these guys can do is plug and play.

As far as My Tech goes, I was referring to shimming and installing the crank properly (some of the kids can't even do that)

Darkhorse does have a warranty, so does Revolution, it's the labor I'm concerned with.

Thanks for the input.

AGOF = Another Grouchy Old Fart

[FlaHeatWave]

FiredOOd,
I agree with most, if not all, of your points.

As far as trip interuption goes- I guess the circumstances of the trip will dictate what action(s) I will take...

Don't get me wrong, If the bottom end $hits the bed again, before I take the '09 SERG on the road again, I will throw in the "kitchen sink" Darkhorse, Carrillo, Lefty, Timken, Fueling etc...  or put it back to stock and get rid of it.

There's always the '05 SEEG that has been bulletproof since day one!!! It's stock and it will "smoke" the 110 (I wasted the ESP $$$ on that one.)

Thanks for the input,
FHW

[HDGearHead]

You need to do what your comfortable with.  For me, I chose to go with Darkhorse and timken bearing even though my ESP runs through to 2017.  

My stock crank already had .010 runout after 12k miles.  The fact that my Darkhorse crank has zero runout and will stay that way forever means that I don't have to worry about any of the problems that could have occurred with an OE crank in the future.  You'll be lucky to find a new OE crank that has .003-.004 runout out of the box and that will potentially increase over time.

My goal was to make the bottom end as bullet proof as possible while I was in it and ESP was paying for it (I paid the difference).  

While its true that ESP may not cover it in the future in the rare chance that I have a problem, however my goal was to eliminate future problems in the first place.  Installing a OE crank greatly increases the chances that I could have additional problem at some point in the future.  I'd rather have a good, strong, reliable motor that doesn't require an ESP than have a motor requires one.

With my luck, if I had chosen to install a OE crank, it would work reliably until just after my ESP coverage ends and then fail causing me to pay the full price replacement cost then.  I'd then be been kicking my self in the a*s about not having gone with Darkhorse and a timken when I had the opportunity to do so.

If you still choose to stay with a OE crank, at least consider having them install a timken.  Its much more tolerant and forgiving of cranks with runout than the OE or SE roller bearings.  

[FlaHeatWave]

HDGearHead,

What actually failed in your bottom end? rod bearings?

How many miles at failure?

What is involved in installing a Timken? Does it take a machine shop, or can a dealer do it?


Thanks for the info

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

It would appear you have already made up your mind about how you plan to proceed, so I suppose I shouldn't waste your time with another post.  But I couldn't ignore a comment you made earlier about your tech setting tolerances better than the factory.  "I have faith that The Tech will set all of the tolerances properly (better than the factory)"

Unless your guy is equipped to break down the flywheel assembly (crankshaft), replace the rods, bearings, and crankpin, and press it all back together, he won't be setting the tolerances of the flywheel assembly, Harley will.  I'm assuming your dealer is like most these days, they just replace the entire assembly and don't rebuild them like they did in the EVO era.

A flywheel assembly from Harley will be very likely to have the same poor tolerances as most seem to have these days, as well as the cheapened parts, so there is no guarantee it will be any better than your original.  I don't know about you, but if I were out traveling somewhere and it failed again, the fact that the ESP might cover it again wouldn't offset the inconvenience and general feeling of being highly pizzed off.  While stuff can still happen even with the Darkhorse rebuilt assemblies, the odds are much better for a failure free future with their stuff versus Harley's crap.  And I'm pretty sure they offer a warrantee as well.

JMHO - Jerry

Extremely good points being made in this comment!!
Scott

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

FiredOOd,
I agree with most, if not all, of your points.

As far as trip interuption goes- I guess the circumstances of the trip will dictate what action(s) I will take...

Don't get me wrong, If the bottom end $hits the bed again, before I take the '09 SERG on the road again, I will throw in the "kitchen sink" Darkhorse, Carrillo, Lefty, Timken, Fueling etc...  or put it back to stock and get rid of it.

There's always the '05 SEEG that has been bulletproof since day one!!! It's stock and it will "smoke" the 110 (I wasted the ESP $$$ on that one.)

Thanks for the input,
FHW

Would not take much for the 110" you own, to PILE DRIVE that 05 into the weeds.
Scott

[FlaHeatWave]

Scott,

I know there is no replacement for displacement.

'Was just talking about stock vs stock.

As I asked you in a previous post; What is it that is causing the rod bearings to fail so soon???

Thank you for your input,

FHW

[HD Street Performance]

when I moved the front rod laterally, then did the same to the rear, there was over 2x the play in the front

This is normal. I will go measure one and update with the numbers I get, if you are interested.
If there is binding or roughness moving for and aft that is bad, if there is any play you can fee radially this is also a problem.

You are getting a new HD crank which isn't any better than the one in your bike now other than it is new. The HD spec for runout is .012", and that will wear an oil pump and cam plate bushing real fast resulting is a very unhappy motor. Many new cranks are at .006 right out of the box.

Frankly if it were mine I would intervene and say to hell with ESP, pay and get your crank welded, plugged and trued, minimum. The Timken hearing and H-beam rods and all that is likely not needed for your state of tune. The crank shop will examine the rod end play and determine if there is excessive wear. These days that work goes to Silvermoon by me.

This pile of cranks pulled for lateral play just smells a little funny to me. There are a boatload of other issues that can cause noise in the 110 twin cam.