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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: Sinker on April 21, 2014, 09:07:53 PM
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Just reading some posts on lifters going bad and am wondering how much it costs to proactively have them replaced?
Scott
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About $500.00 to $700.00 Should also change the cam bearings, and will need adjustable push rods. Nice when its done though.
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Ditto on the cam bearings but I am not a fan of adjustable push rods. I know many folks have them and are satisfied but I dislike them for several reasons: they are expensive, they add weight to the already strained valve train, the lock nut(s) can get loose and the push rod lose its adjustment (happened to a couple guys I know).
If you are paying someone to do the wrenching the labor to remove the oem push rods from the top (and re-use your stock push rods) is about equal to the added cost of buying adjustable push rods.
I just feel better having a solid push rod I know can't cause problems. And the oem pushrods are plenty strong enough and durable for the job.
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Depends on what lifters you purchase and where.
A new set of lifters will be anywhere from $80-$200
Should replace the cam bearings while in there agreed.
There is nothing wrong with adjustable pushrods and sadly they are needed for some applications.
Pushrods are on the wrong end of the valvetrain to worry about as far as weight.....valve,valve spring,retainer weight is the concern.
With the valvesprings HD decided to use on the 110 engines having way too much seat and open pressure ,a set of stock length perfect fit pushrods at
$100 is a very good idea.
in a 110 I do not think the stock pushrods are quite up to snuff....
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Prices depend but will fall in line with the prices above. The problem always seems to be just changing lifters..... While ya have it apart it's a cheap time to change cams, and while your changing cams, you need a tune, and while tuning you really need the exhaust you want.....and...and...and..... Lifters are not bad if you can stop with just lifters....
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You can change lifters with out getting into the cam chest for cheaper option.
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Why do you want to change your lifters? Is there a reason besides the negative posts on the internet of other riders lifter failures?
This is a very small percentage of actual riders and they all have their different circumstances but if your not having any problems then leave them alone.
Personally, I would not touch them unless you have really high mileage on your scoot. If you do decide to change the lifters its time to get a real cam in there and take care of the bearings and lifters at the same time. Save on all that labor and get it done at the same time with peace of mind.
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Why do you want to change your lifters? Is there a reason besides the negative posts on the internet of other riders lifter failures?
This is a very small percentage of actual riders and they all have their different circumstances but if your not having any problems then leave them alone.
Personally, I would not touch them unless you have really high mileage on your scoot. If you do decide to change the lifters its time to get a real cam in there and take care of the bearings and lifters at the same time. Save on all that labor and get it done at the same time with peace of mind.
If you're referring to all Twin Cam motors, you're probably correct. If you're referring to 110 Twin Cam motors, I disagree with your assessment. I suspect the percentage of 110 Twin Cam lifter issues is more than a "small percentage"... JMO... :) :2vrolijk_21:
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Why do you want to change your lifters? Is there a reason besides the negative posts on the internet of other riders lifter failures?
This is a very small percentage of actual riders and they all have their different circumstances but if your not having any problems then leave them alone.
Personally, I would not touch them unless you have really high mileage on your scoot. If you do decide to change the lifters its time to get a real cam in there and take care of the bearings and lifters at the same time. Save on all that labor and get it done at the same time with peace of mind.
I'd love to know how you know that "this is a very small percentage". Do you have insider information from Harley warranty analysis perhaps? How about inside information from CNA on all the engines they've paid to replace or repair due to lifter roller failures under the ESP? What percentage failure rate do you consider insignificant?
Where there is smoke there is usually fire. Not every 1999-2006 Twin Cam suffered cam chain tensioner failures that trashed the engine, but enough did that many of us chose to do regular inspections and even prophylactic changes to avoid trashing an entire engine. Was that a bad choice on our part? Without a magic looking glass to see into the future, no one really knows. Of course the same can be said for many things in life. We are left with the imperfect option of evaluating the risks as we currently know them, evaluating the cost of various actions including no action, and then deciding to either take preventive measures or just leave it to "fate". It's called being prudent, cautious, whatever. The opposite is often called being clueless or foolish.
Even though the OP didn't tell us what model and year bike he currently has, I think he has a 2009 CVO with a 110 engine. IMHO if he has 20k miles or more it would be wise to at least investigate the idea of replacing the lifters. If he doesn't have a service contract and would be on the hook for the entire repair cost if a lifter totaled the engine, I think $400 to replace the lifters with a high quality alternative would be very cheap insurance versus a $4k and up potential repair cost. And that doesn't factor in any other costs if a failure were to happen out on the road somewhere.
Jerry
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Here's what a pre-fail bad lifter does to a cam in a 23,000 110 CVO.
You be the judge.
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The question is really, "What is the cost of NOT replacing the lifters?" Probably thousands of $$$
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I appreciate all of the feedback. As some of you suspect I am thinking of doing this to save the cost of a catastrophic failure. Hopping up the cams and a better tune would also be nice while in the process.
Scott
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I appreciate all of the feedback. As some of you suspect I am thinking of doing this to save the cost of a catastrophic failure. Hopping up the cams and a better tune would also be nice while in the process.
Scott
Scott, if you're thinking about just swapping out a set of lifters and aren't too concerned about tackling basic mechanical chores a lifter swap is a task most can do at home on a Saturday afternoon. If limiting yourself just to lifters and you don't mind buying a set of adjustable pushrods the only thing even close to a special tool one would need is a set of bolt cutters to get the original pushrods out of the engine. Everything else is just basic hand tools.
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I just had my lifters replaced with s&s premiums and adj. Push rods. I was uncomfortable running the stock lifters so I had them upgraded for peace of mind. I also took the opportunity to upgrade the cams. With tune I spent about 1300 and couldn't be happier knowing they are gone. I also know how much crank runout I have now and what the condition of the old cams and lifters were in.
Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk
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If a customer where to do the labor on the install and then bring the bike for a tune you would be 1150-1200 based on the 2 1/2 + dozen we have done this year. Labor will vary from shop to shop but I would think that 450-650 labor would cover that end. So a cap of 2000 would get you there and then some.
Lifter failure is not only on the 110 engines. Some have posted that it is about the 110 valve spring pressure I have no doubt that plays a role . However we are seeing the same types of wear and failure on non CVO lifters as well. And there is no excessive valve spring pressure induced there.
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Just reading some posts on lifters going bad and am wondering how much it costs to proactively have them replaced?
Scott
If you are at all mechanically inclined, or if you have a mechanically inclined friend who can perform the labor, you can replace lifters for no more than the cost of the lifters - $100 to $300 - depending on the brand of lifters. It's a simple task that requires no special tools. Refer to your service manual for instruction and torque specs...
I'd recommend using S&S premium lifters... p/n 330-0175
http://www.sscycle.com/go-fast-showcase/motorcycle-engine-components/premium-high-performance-tappets/
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Just reading some posts on lifters going bad and am wondering how much it costs to proactively have them replaced?
Scott
My thought is the more appropriate question is how much does it cost if your lifters chit the bed and dump metal all through your motor and damage other parts? IMO that's putting the cost of replacing them into perspective over not replacing them. If it's a known (lot or little) weak point why not correct it before it bites you.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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My thought is the more appropriate question is how much does it cost if your lifters chit the bed and dump metal all through your motor and damage other parts? IMO that's putting the cost of replacing them into perspective over not replacing them. If it's a known (lot or little) weak point why not correct it before it bites you.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
And that is why I pulled mine. Well said!
Jesse
Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk
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on the '09 SERG;
'Having had a crank replaced at 10k, and a lifter go out and take out the whole motor at 22k, for me the upgrade lifters are the inexpensive way to go (if you can get away from the "may as well, while we're in there")
It made fiscal sense for me ("while we were in there") to Build the motor to 117 with "all the goodies" and S&S Premium Lifters, also, we will be doing Cam Chest inspections every 15-20k (barring any issues)...
The '05 SEEG;
'Upgraded the Cam Tensioners (preventative). Bike has been drama free...
The '81 FXWG Shovel;
'Had lifter issues (even back then) the "fix" was to replace with solid lifters. "While I was in there" I installed the 470 Sifton Solid Lift Cam :pepper:
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Here is what my dealer charged a couple months ago when I had him change the lifters and cam bearings on my '07. He removed the stock push rods from the top and re-used them so no cost for adjustable push rods - just a little more labor. The engine in this bike was replaced a while back and had about 8k on it when this work was done.
S&S Premium Lifters 269.95
cam service gasket kit 112.99
cam bearings 19.99
cam drive gear retention 6.99
6 hrs labor @ 91.00 546.00
Total 955.92 plus tax of course
My dealer has a discount program for parts of which I am a member so I saved 15% off the above prices. And since the work was done the first part of February and the shop was slow he gave me some discount on the labor also. The above are regular 'list' prices with no discount.
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Only 6300 miles on my Ultra but am going to be installing the S&S Premiums in the next week or two. Just waiting on lifter delivery. Not going to take a chance with the stock lifters. Since I am doing the work myself total cost is about $400.
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S&S Premium Lifters 269.95
cam service gasket kit 112.99
cam bearings 19.99
cam drive gear retention 6.99
6 hrs labor @ 91.00 546.00
Total 955.92 plus tax of course
The S&S cam installation kit P/N 106-5929 is $26.95. Comes with inner bearing, snap ring, and cam cover gasket. Rest of the gaskets (lifter cover, breather gasket and valve, rocker gaskets, push rod orings) will be about $40. Add S&S premiums are $269 or GMR lifters for $190. Whole job can be done from $270-$350 for parts. 6hrs labor seems about right and of course tax. I would suggest finding an Indy shop. (Maybe one that is a CVO member and claim another 10% off.) Looks like the whole job could cost about $700-800 to have someone else do it.
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Interesting...
Simple question... If I do this myself, I guess that it will void my warranty ? ???
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No it will not void waranty
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my dealer did mine ( labor) for less than 300 bucks that was pulling the tank and heads they do not like adjustable pushrods S@S lifters must be in demand a few websites I checked were on backorder i found a set in Ohio ....
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my dealer did mine ( labor) for less than 300 bucks that was pulling the tank and heads they do not like adjustable pushrods S@S lifters must be in demand a few websites I checked were on backorder i found a set in Ohio ....
Got mine from Amazon. Saved about $30.
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Interesting...
Simple question... If I do this myself, I guess that it will void my warranty ? ???
It all depends. First, you're in Canada so you need to find out what the rules and laws say in your country versus the USA. Second, if your question is about the difference between having a dealership do the work versus doing it yourself, here in the US the answer would be no, they couldn't void coverage just because you did the work yourself. Once again, I don't know the law in Canada. As for using nonstandard parts however, I'm pretty sure it's the same regardless of the country involved. Harley is not going to warrant nonstandard parts, and if they can find any way to possibly blame those nonstandard parts for other failures they will do so in a heartbeat.
With a 2014 you already have the latest upgraded lifters and inner cam bearings, so I'm not sure you need to be jumping the gun on changing any parts. Don't get spooked by all the failures on earlier models that didn't have the latest lifters or bearings.
Jerry
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You can save some money on the lifters if you try GMR's new ones. ;)
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The other side of the warranty question is the "extended warranty" coverage. If you have or are considering the "extended warranty" will they deny coverage to any engine damage because you changed the lifters?
I have the extended warranty and am considering checking/replacing my lifters. My main concern is what will happen if some other part in my engine fails and CNA denies me coverage because I no longer have the OEM screw holding my passenger floorboards.
:oops: :nixweiss:
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Black and white deal is they HAVE to prove the part you installed caused the failure. But without a lawyer good luck. I have never seen a factory or after factory warranty claim denied due to lifters, rocker arms etc. I mean if a lifter you installed blew up and trashed the engine sure it could be an issue. But the flip side is you are more likely to have the stock lifter blow up leave you on the road and then you get a new engine and since HD feels it does not need to clean oil tank out,.... blow metal through new engine :pepper:. At least that is what we have seen first hand.. If the customer has no idea about oil pan and such HD does not go out of there way to do extra in most cases. Some HD shops are killer but its not the norm and we all know that to be true. Good luck
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:2vrolijk_21:
Why do you want to change your lifters? Is there a reason besides the negative posts on the internet of other riders lifter failures?
This is a very small percentage of actual riders and they all have their different circumstances but if your not having any problems then leave them alone.
Personally, I would not touch them unless you have really high mileage on your scoot. If you do decide to change the lifters its time to get a real cam in there and take care of the bearings and lifters at the same time. Save on all that labor and get it done at the same time with peace of mind.
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When I sent my Jim's motor back after complete failure. The first thing they said was we noticed the tappets aren't the same as the motor was shipped with can you tell me why? I answered when I was deciding to order the motor I spoke with a well known HD dealer that installs many of your motors and I asked the head guy for any advice, He said if you do nothing else but install the crate motor pull the Jim's lifters out and replace them with HD B's. When she asked me "can I ask why" I said they told me they don't trust them and they are very noisy. She answered OK. I said that is not what took out this motor. She agreed.
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With a 2014 you already have the latest upgraded lifters and inner cam bearings, so I'm not sure you need to be jumping the gun on changing any parts. Don't get spooked by all the failures on earlier models that didn't have the latest lifters or bearings.
Jerry
Good advice, tnx!
I have the cruel chance of having a short riding season, so chances are that others 2014 will have issues before I do if the problem still exists... Giving me the chance to react then...
Keeping my fingers crossed....... :nervous:
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we have cammed over 2 dozen of the 14 bikes and the lifters are not upgraded at all. Inner cam bearings are hit or miss new vs old . Specs & part #'s aside I have seen this stuff first hand.. Be happy to post up some 2500 mile lifters from a 14 we just pulled one down yesterday. Same roller damage , rattle on start up Dealer said that's ok ,..Hyd lifters bleed down. :-\ Swapping lifters and adding ex and tune. Maybe once HD has used up all the old parts you may see a change .
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we have cammed over 2 dozen of the 14 bikes and the lifters are not upgraded at all. Inner cam bearings are hit or miss new vs old . Specs & part #'s aside I have seen this stuff first hand.. Be happy to post up some 2500 mile lifters from a 14 we just pulled one down yesterday. Same roller damage , rattle on start up Dealer said that's ok ,..Hyd lifters bleed down. :-\ Swapping lifters and adding ex and tune. Maybe once HD has used up all the old parts you may see a change .
Is that just 110's Steve, or a mixture of engines? The reason I ask is that Harley only claimed to have upgraded the lifters and inner cam bearings on the 110, not the 96/103. Of course nothing would surprise me with Harley's hit and miss quality control system.
Jerry
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Is that just 110's Steve, or a mixture of engines? The reason I ask is that Harley only claimed to have upgraded the lifters and inner cam bearings on the 110, not the 96/103. Of course nothing would surprise me with Harley's hit and miss quality control system.
Jerry
110 have the same lifters ( they look the same have the same light blue paint marking , part number wise I dont know as I dont re use the stock lifters ) and inner bearings are still hit or miss .. On the 103 all the same stuff but I did one here a short time ago that had new inner bearings ??
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We locked on S&S lifters years ago.
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I realize these posts are ancient, but I just joinedthis group, AND I’ve just finished replacing the internal parts of my ‘04 FLHTCI Cam Body (cams, oil pump, lifters, push rods) by myself, opting to buy the inner/outer cam bearing installation tool, and taking two days to remove/replace the chain-driven cams with gear drives.
The S&S kit I chose (.510 lift cams) was expertly packaged with all the necessary parts, lubrication, thread-locker, and gaskets, and included excellent step-by-step installation instructions. I have tinkered with all the different Harley’s I’ve owned over the years - 3 Sportsters, a Low Rider, a Wide Glide, and now the FL, and I feel very comfortable wrenching on my own - considering the fact that I have wrenched on a lot of stuff over the years, and can usually follow instructions when given - I have to say that this little project was by far one of the easiest I have undertaken.
If any of you are considering upgrading your Twin Cam HD from the standard wire-type cam chain tensioner to either hydraulic tensioner, or even gear driven cams, you will save about $700-$1000 in labor by doing it yourself.....and of course now there are many helpful Utube Videos on this very subject that I encourage you to look at. Also, I am happy to answer any questions you may have regarding this post.
Happy wrenching!
Steve
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Gear drive only if less than .002 runout cam side. S&S does a good job with the kits but the 510 is never the wrong cam but often there are better, depends on the application.
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You can save some money on the lifters if you try GMR's new ones. ;)
Why experiment with such a critical and inexpensive part. It's like saving $100 but putting ChingShen Chinese tires on your $45k motorcycle.
Go with S&S or Johnson HyLift and forgetaboutit.
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S&S Premium Lifters w/HL2T kit & S&S adjustable pushrods p/n's 495979, 493889 $802.39 installed on 2011 CVO Street Glide
OWL
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I have the limiters for Johnson Hylift lifters but in most cases they are not needed.