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Author Topic: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade  (Read 3693 times)

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ed53511

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2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« on: March 06, 2019, 05:10:09 PM »

I am getting an upgrade done to my 2015 SG CVO 110 to a 113.

I've been given 2 options for upgrades. One would replace the heads with S&S heads and eliminate the water cooling system.

What are the advantages or disadvantages to either option?

Option One                                                       Option Two
Rework Stock Heads, New S&S Springs Porting      S&S superstock heads
Bore Existing Cylinders                                      Bore Existing Cylinders
113 UEM Piston Kit                                              113 UEM Piston Kit
580 Lucifer Cam                                                      580 Lucifer Cam
S&S lifters                                                              S&S Lifters
Gaskets, Seals, MLS Head Gaskets                      Gaskets, Seals, MLS Head Gaskets
V&H Power Dual Headpipe                                      V&H Power Dual Headpipe
Power Vision Tune License                                      Power Vision Tune License
Flat Rate Tune                                                      Flat Rate Tune
Optional 58 SE Intake Manifold                              Optional 58 S&S throttle hog intake
Clutch Upgrade                                                      Clutch Upgrade
Build Labor                                                      Build Labor
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fastfreddy

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2019, 05:20:41 PM »

 me … I would keep the wet heads,
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ed53511

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2019, 05:22:05 PM »

Why?
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2019, 05:30:56 PM »

 heat and high performance don't go together. plus if you get the right guy to do your heads he can Taylor the head work to the rest of the parts you have chosen , the pros will chime in with the details soon
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2019, 05:52:03 PM »

just wondering does it justify what will you gain couple hp/tq vs. $$$ you will spent, if money is not problem than go big 117'' or 124'' ... just saying.

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ed53511

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2019, 07:28:01 PM »

I am probably one of the most unqualified persons to have this conversation but I will give it my best shot.

I've been told air cooling heads draw more heat away from the engine and two of the three shops I spoke with to get quotes suggested going to the SS heads.

The other feedback recently received suggest that outside the extra cost, 117-124 upgrades would require crank work to ensure longevity and durability. It was further explained to me the 124 upgrades might as well get a crate motor due to costs.

I spoke to many people that I think know a bit about these upgrades and nearly all suggested the best bang for the buck would be the 113 upgrades. After listening to several people I reached out to a few shops (all 3 highly recommended from websites and groups) and now I have it narrowed down to either of these two options. I find it appealing to get rid of the radiators but I don't know in the long run what effects that might have.

That all being said, I don't know enough about the topic so I am trusting the shops and then now online support to get insight and hopefully make the right choice.

And then I Just received a third option.
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2019, 08:25:04 PM »

I would stay wet head. Take the extra coin and put in a 117 bolt on kit from Suburban speed. Going to an air cooled head will hurt your performance when it’s hot outside a lot.
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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2019, 08:29:19 PM »

If it was my bike, I would stay wet head.  The CVO head can done by a good shop to flow enough for 145/145 hp and torque, which is way more than you need.

The wet head runs cooler.  This is important if you ride in high heat, or long trips.  I much prefer the wet head from personal experience.  I have had several non wet head CVO bikes, I have also had two wet head CVO bikes. 
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2019, 09:22:17 PM »

I would stay wet head and send the heads out to someone reputable and match it to the cam and pistons..Tman 585, headwork, good pipe, TTS or powervision and a good tune and you are looking at 125+- 3 to 4/130..

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ed53511

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2019, 09:44:16 PM »

FLSTFI Dave, what configuration reaches 145/145?
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2019, 10:14:04 PM »

Stay with the wet head, have the heads worked, the suburban speed 117 pistons and HD barrels, min of a 58mm throttle body, cams, good pipe and tune you will be in the 130 hp and tq range.
Talk with the builder about riding style to choose cams and have heads worked accordingly.

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2019, 10:23:52 PM »

There might be some other problems in going to dry heads:  Since your engine was born with wet heads, the ECM (Engine Control Module) is set up to monitor coolant temperature and to control the cooling fans--so it will throw error codes when it doesn't find the feedback it expects from them.  Not sure if the PV can delete all the "expectations" the ECM has.

There also might be other sensors that are lost with the wet heads, which could lead to more error codes.

It would be really expensive to go back to wet heads after switching to dry.  This is not a modification I would make.
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2019, 10:38:11 PM »



I've been told air cooling heads draw more heat away from the engine and two of the three shops I spoke with to get quotes suggested going to the SS heads.



A wet head is cooled by water/coolant and air. Ask them how an engine cooled only by air cools better than an engine cooled by both water and air. I'm not the most educated person but what they are telling you makes no sense to me.
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2019, 11:47:42 PM »

I've been told air cooling heads draw more heat away from the engine and two of the three shops I spoke with to get quotes suggested going to the SS heads.
:o    I forgot to address this in my previous post.  Whoever told you that is either completely clueless, or wants to make more money off you by selling you more parts--or both.
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Hondo2doc

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2019, 11:50:12 PM »

Ok so I have a 2016 SESG. Dropped the Harley 117 kit in but......but John Sachs a member on here. Designed that entire build we used different pistons, cams etc. John did the head work and shaved top of cylinders. I had my local dealer assemble to retain my factory warranty. My sheet for that build is on here some where it’s 129, 128 torque/ hp or something near that. It does what I wanted to scare the chit out of me.

Now John also put a S&S T 124ci in my 2015 SESG eliminating all liquid cooling. Doesn’t throw any codes at all. It is a torque beast. I don’t remember what the final numbers were on it, I’ve got the sheet here somewhere. Now just to give me peace of mind I added the wards cooling fans (I had a set before he went out of business) that I can flip on if in stop and go traffic. And I live on a sun spot, south Florida. If I hadn’t had the wards fans I would have bought the love jugs mighty might.

I don’t see any pro or con to keeping or ditching the liquid cooling. There are several tuners that easily tune/map the bike eliminating the liquid cooling with no issues.

One side note the water pump on the liquid cooled is around 600 bucks and many seem to fail in the 40k plus milage area.

Good luck


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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2019, 12:22:58 AM »

Now John also put a S&S T 124ci in my 2015 SESG eliminating all liquid cooling.
Was this a crate motor, or did he put the 124 kit on the existing motor?
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2019, 06:21:26 AM »

Was this a crate motor, or did he put the 124 kit on the existing motor?

Crate motor.


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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2019, 06:23:15 AM »

keep your heads,110 heads flow about the same as S&S heads un touched,much more after porting.if your shop dosnt know that,id be looking for another shop,or they do know and their trying to up sell you on parts you don't need

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2019, 08:50:23 AM »

The shops I am asking come highly rated and work in the sport of Harley's as well as regular customer service.  As you can see they offered other options than just SS heads. I didn't share the reasoning, advantages, and disadvantages behind each option (that they shared with me), just the parts. I also didn't share the cost of each option but all were within $200 of each other.

As you can further see some of the others who have responded have gone with dewetting and are more than happy with the outcome. I respect everyone's input but I am not sure the input requires demeaning the shops.

Thank you all for your input. As a matter of fact, I think I might spend a little bit more and go to the 117 Suburban so now back to the drawing board and talking to the shops to see what impact the 117 upgrades might have on the lower end of the unit overall.

Thanks again for your input.


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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2019, 12:20:46 PM »

Just for grins test ride an M8 117 before you decide. It's a whole different animal. Nothing to lose right?
I did a very successful 113 upgrade on my 2011 SESG then a couple years later moved up to my current ride. I did exhaust and tuner upgrade and after 13,000 miles I personally would not go back to the TC.
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2019, 02:47:28 PM »

TC ?
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2019, 03:44:46 PM »

Twin Cam
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2019, 07:34:27 PM »


As you can further see some of the others who have responded have gone with dewetting and are more than happy with the outcome. I respect everyone's input but I am not sure the input requires demeaning the shops.
One of the (many) great things about this forum is that the advice people give is meant to be helpful, not to screw with you.  Part of that is b/c we have GTGs (Get Togethers) and meet, eat, ride, and drink together.  That means we know each other as real people, not as keyboard warriors or as easy targets for expensive "pranks."  So we all get and give advice like a good friend would...and even when we disagree, it stays civil.

When we see someone getting bad advice from outside the forum, we say so, b/c our loyalty is to those inside.  The sad reality is that there are many thousands of shops out there, even dealer's mechanics, who are just "parts-replacers."  Many of them can talk persuasively and give a price-competitive estimate...but their results are poor, expensive, and eat up your spare time and riding time.  Some of them may have good intentions, but want to try something different.  We know which road is paved with good intentions.

So let's look at the results from your post:  Only one person went dry...and that was by putting an entirely different engine in (S&S 124), not by putting dry heads on an HD wet head.  So really, nobody who responded recommended changing a wet to a dry--including people who build engines professionally, and who don't have any money riding on your choice.

The 117" with Suburban pistons gives reliability and great performance for the money, unlike a lot of builds that are a small increase for lots of money.  Both hd-dude and prodrag1320 are well-known professionals who give great advice and do great builds.  Talk to them and you'll do well.  The right cam and pipe make a big difference. 
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2019, 07:42:51 PM »

Parabellum..I agree with that last sentence, but dont forget about the headwork and  a good dyno tune...

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ed53511

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2019, 01:38:25 PM »

Para Bellum,

Thank you for your civil approach in your response. It is truly appreciated.

After going back and re-reading the posts, you are correct, I misread the de-wetting statement.

That all being said, there is still no need to demean shops you do not agree with. My request was for advice about these builds and my assumption in doing so is that people smarter than myself would respond with their opinions based on their own experience but might hopefully follow up with reasons why. My expectations might have been a little high.

Since I don't know the answers to my own questions I resorted to the internet first in hopes to find credible sources to point me in the right direction for local shops that would be able to help me in my quest. During this initial search, I discovered cvoharley.com and read many, many, many, many posts resulting in my choice of 3 initial shops to turn to for advice, direction, and quotes. Only one of them came across as more sales pressure than I would have hoped. But at the same time, they are booked out until late July to complete the work. And at the same time, they are building a new facility due to their growth. But I believe all 3 were recommended from this website.

Does that make them any smarter than the next? Probably not. To me they are strangers, and I am hopeful the will steer me in the right direction. One thing I do know that they as well as the other two shops did due, is that took the time to explain the details and the reasoning behind each of their choices. 2 of the 3 gave me options on build driven by budget and performance desires. Part of the unfortunate thing is most the time they are talking is a foreign language to me so it is difficult for me to completely comprehend their entire presentation.

So I thought it would be wise to reach out to a qualified forum to get advice from "experts" as to which was the best route to go. It wasn't to have people tell me how dumb or crooked a shop may be. But as an adult, I understand this an open forum and you subject to some of the bad with the good.

That all being said, I am just trying to get the most bang for the buck, without diminishing the existing integrity and longevity the bike.  People telling me how dumb or crooked a shop might be does not help me reach that goal. The strangers on here telling me how dumb or crooked (I know those are not the exact words they used when they implied) these shops are don't know who these shops and so they don't know if they are in fact not qualified. No more than I don't know that the people here are qualified. But just like the shops I chose to trust, the people here I choose to trust.

I am open to suggestions for other shops in Wisconsin / Illinois state line area (or further out into the midwest area if necessary) and or, more importantly, configurations that others with the same bike (or near enough similar) that was successful.

In closing, I thank you again for pointing out my errors and the need for civility. I hope everyone can appreciate my quest and my level of civility and respond in like kind. I really would like get to a level to make a confident decision. And not waste my time, or your time, talking about if shops are stupid shysters.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 03:10:29 PM by ed53511 »
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Para Bellum

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2019, 02:11:50 AM »

Parabellum..I agree with that last sentence, but dont forget about the headwork and  a good dyno tune...

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Too true, CVO 2015.  I must have run out of gas after exhausting so much air in that post, lol.

Ed53511,
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause you any distress.  I found it a large red flag that a mechanic told you air-cooled would transfer heat better than water-cooled.  In engineering, that's worse than saying the earth is flat.  It's a "run, don't walk" flag. 

My phrasing was meant to convey the how and why they might say that so you could fully understand, at this distance, how poorly it seemed that shop would serve you.  You're right that I could have been more diplomatic.  I can only say I wanted to be emphatic, and that since no names were named, I wouldn't be calling them out to anyone but you.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not the only one to point that out, just the worst one:

A wet head is cooled by water/coolant and air. Ask them how an engine cooled only by air cools better than an engine cooled by both water and air. I'm not the most educated person but what they are telling you makes no sense to me.

keep your heads,110 heads flow about the same as S&S heads un touched,much more after porting.  if your shop dosnt know that, id be looking for another shop, or they do know and their trying to up sell you on parts you don't need

In any case, good luck with your decision and your build, and welcome to the forum.
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2019, 07:44:43 AM »

The shops I am asking come highly rated and work in the sport of Harley's as well as regular customer service.  As you can see they offered other options than just SS heads. I didn't share the reasoning, advantages, and disadvantages behind each option (that they shared with me), just the parts. I also didn't share the cost of each option but all were within $200 of each other.

As you can further see some of the others who have responded have gone with dewetting and are more than happy with the outcome. I respect everyone's input but I am not sure the input requires demeaning the shops.

Thank you all for your input. As a matter of fact, I think I might spend a little bit more and go to the 117 Suburban so now back to the drawing board and talking to the shops to see what impact the 117 upgrades might have on the lower end of the unit overall.

Thanks again for your input.


sorry if you got butt hurt over my comments,but any shop that suggests taking off wet 110 heads (or any 110 heads on any build) & replacing them with S&S heads is very suspect to me,& we see it all the time (up selling) we`ve been making Harley`s go fast way before it was cool (going on 40 years) & we don't up sell or sell our customers stuff they don't need.have your 110 heads ported,you`ll be far ahead ($$ and performance wise) than the S&S head

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2019, 10:04:27 AM »

Para  Bellum

How do I reach out to hd-dude and prodrag1320 to get their insight?

I would like to make my decision by next weekend to ensure I get the bike back by riding season. Even though riding season in Wisconsin might be a couple of months late this year.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 10:06:51 AM by ed53511 »
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HD Street Performance

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2019, 10:57:48 AM »

I suggest you contact BVHOG
He is a site member
He is a great builder and tuner. Honest and has a large database of builds under his belt. On stop shop. No finger pointing
He is in Eau Claire, Wisconsin
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2019, 12:13:10 PM »

I suggest you contact BVHOG

Do you have contact info?

Thanks
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2019, 01:43:29 PM »

I suggest you contact BVHOG

Do you have contact info?

Thanks
Check your private messages on this web forum. 
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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2019, 05:21:07 PM »

How do I reach out to hd-dude and prodrag1320 to get their insight?
Since hd-dude, prodrag1320, and HD Street Performance have posted in this thread, you can go to their post and use #2 below.  For bvhog, use #1 below.  You can look up any member by their screen name using #1:

1.  Use the "search" box at the top of each page, then click on the title of any of the results; or
2.  On the left-hand side of each post, below the name, status, avatar, etc., there are some icons.   Click on the envelope-shape to get their email, or the conversation-bubble to send a PM (private msg) through the forum, or the person-shape to go to their profile, which will have those plus more.

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ed53511

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2019, 05:35:34 PM »

Thanks
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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: 2015 SG CVO 110-113 Upgrade
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2019, 08:37:50 AM »

FLSTFI Dave, what configuration reaches 145/145?

Look at the build specs on my CVO king in my signature.  Pretty much that build, but using a Heavy breather.  Also using Rhineheart mufflers and Jackpot head pipe.

The real difference is the air cleaner.  Its been shown on the TC the Heavy breather is 3 to 4 hp and torque better than the other HD air cleaners.
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2023 FLTRXSE Whiskey Neat
2021 RA1250S Pan America Special
2019 FLTRXSE Red Pepper / Magnetic Gray Traded
2018 FLTRXSE Gunship Gray  Traded
2017 FLHXSE  Starfire Black / Atomic Red  Traded
2015 FLTRUSE Abyss Blue / Crushed Saphire Traded
2013 FLHRSE5 Diamond Dust 117  Traded
2012 FLTRXSE White Gold Pearl / Starfire Black  Traded
2009 FLTRSE3 Silver/Titanium  Traded
2003 Fatboy, real fire paint set,
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