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Author Topic: Oil pump failed and took out valve train. Need assistance and suggestions please  (Read 7968 times)

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zigzag930

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I was concerned that a tear down should be done.  But, I have discussed the teardown with several very well respected Harley mechanics/tuners. 

They seem to concur that a tear down shouldn't be required as the oil from the cam chest is filtered before going to other parts of the engine.  Consequently, the piston oil jets and other internal areas should be safe (logic behind an oil filter I guess).

However, the pan must be removed and cleaned out or replaced.  All oil passages must be cleaned out.  Crank run-out should be inspected (which it has, looks good .003).  All cam chest components as well as the lifters, pushrods and even rocker arms need to be changed.   Possibly the heads should be removed to inspect the valves, springs and guides.

ESP has three years left on it, so if there are more problems, they will have to cover it all again.  Kind of stupid to me that they would save a few $ today at the risk of Lots of $ later, but that is how insurance works???

i intend to pay the difference to replace some of the components.  Current plan is S&S Premium lifters, HD SE Cam plate and SE oil pump, Timken bearings and most likely a Tman 625 cam (as I am considering the 117 kit at the same time).

I hope these components do not preclude future ESP coverage, and would like to think that better parts should not void coverage.


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skratch

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I hope these components do not preclude future ESP coverage, and would like to think that better parts should not void coverage.

i would ask them directly.  they may be 'better' parts, but they are non-hd parts.  once those go in, their responsibility may end.
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lowflight

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If they tell you they will cover the upgrades in the future, IMO it would be in your best interest to get it in writing.
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grc

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The "all the oil goes through the oil filter" theory sounds good, until you realize debris laden oil can still find it's way past not only the filter (ever heard of a filter bypass valve?) but can also migrate through the seals and bearings for the crank and cam.  Have the used motor oil tested before assuming no debris got into the crankcase or heads.

Jerry
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Jerry - 2005 Cherry SEEG  -  Member # 1155

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HD Street Performance

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Right on that  :2vrolijk_21:
Lifters are a dead end for debris so is the oil cooler and thermostat and the oil pan. Oil filter does not catch it all after a failure
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trippy

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Right on GRC,  Harley (and many other manufacturers for that matter)  oil filters are a joke, they should be called "Oil scrubbers" not filters.

Open up a filter and try and get oil to pass through the filter medium, even with hot oil, takes forever, which means the "bypass" is open most of the time, in other words, un filtered oil is being circulated around your engine!!

Go for a reusable "metal mesh" design, there are many available ( not from Harley though!)
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HD Street Performance

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Mesh filter = 30 microns absolute
Stock filter = 5 micron nominal
Nothing wrong with the stock filter
A filter in any system will not prevent collateral comtamination after a failure.  It's too late
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MCE

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Fueling is good stuff.  S&S really good as well.  SE camplate also good.  Lot of good upgrade options.
+1 Fueling has very good stuff. The whole thing needs to be disassembled or you're going to have
problems again. I'd do the crank while it's apart too. Send it to Hoban brothers or get an S&S crank.

Now is the time to build it right. If it were me, I'd go with gear drives too and be totally done with it.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 02:53:06 PM by MCE Performance »
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zigzag930

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ESP company is presently weighing out the re-build vs long block.  I should know in a few days.  Long block would make sense to me as the better route for all parties as it would have a one year warranty from HD.  I would think that the ESP would value that in their decision, but who knows.  It may be all about the $$$.  In fact, a long block may be less expensive at this point as the heads have now been pulled and the cylinders are scored.

If we go the long block route, I still plan to upgrade the cam plate and pump.  I'm now thinking the SE cam plate and pumps are the way to go.  That will leave the question of lifters and cam.  I've been told by many that the new SE lifters do not have issues anymore.  But, I think I'd still invest the extra $ to do the S&S premiums just to feel more comfortable.  Cam will be a tough decision as I'm not sure if I will do a 117 kit now or just leave the new 110 alone.

Kind of stuck until I get the EPS's decision on which direction they will proceed.  It's been three weeks and counting.... by the time this is all said and done, I'm guessing another 3-4 weeks.  I miss Lucille
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HD Street Performance

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Harley new lifters fail too. The cvo 110 got them in 2013 I believe.
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grc

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ESP company is presently weighing out the re-build vs long block.  I should know in a few days.  Long block would make sense to me as the better route for all parties as it would have a one year warranty from HD.  I would think that the ESP would value that in their decision, but who knows.  It may be all about the $$$.  In fact, a long block may be less expensive at this point as the heads have now been pulled and the cylinders are scored.

If we go the long block route, I still plan to upgrade the cam plate and pump.  I'm now thinking the SE cam plate and pumps are the way to go.  That will leave the question of lifters and cam.  I've been told by many that the new SE lifters do not have issues anymore.  But, I think I'd still invest the extra $ to do the S&S premiums just to feel more comfortable.  Cam will be a tough decision as I'm not sure if I will do a 117 kit now or just leave the new 110 alone.

Kind of stuck until I get the EPS's decision on which direction they will proceed.  It's been three weeks and counting.... by the time this is all said and done, I'm guessing another 3-4 weeks.  I miss Lucille

Unfortunately you've been misinformed.  Harley started installing those SE lifters in production on CVO110 engines for the 2013 model year.  So the lifters in your 2015 would have been the same ones shown in the catalog as SE lifters.  Plenty of them have failed, the heavier duty roller bearings in those lifters just delay the problem, not prevent it.  The root cause of the failures involves the entire valve train, not just the lifters.  The cams, valves, and springs are the real culprits IMHO.

Jerry
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Jerry - 2005 Cherry SEEG  -  Member # 1155

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HD Street Performance

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Jerry, as always, described the issues well.
The valve train is a system. Without a system approach it is difficult to fix the lifter issue. Eyeballs focus on one component,  in this case usualy lifters or valve springs. Truth be told if forced to name the major contributor I would suggest the cam. Despite being short and not extreme lift the ramps are intense.  Just changing cams to a grind with less intense ramps, in my opinion, is the 80% solution.
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lowflight

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Jerry, as always, described the issues well.
The valve train is a system. Without a system approach it is difficult to fix the lifter issue. Eyeballs focus on one component,  in this case usualy lifters or valve springs. Truth be told if forced to name the major contributor I would suggest the cam. Despite being short and not extreme lift the ramps are intense.  Just changing cams to a grind with less intense ramps, in my opinion, is the 80% solution.

Curious which cam you would recommend. I know there are tons of opinions on my question, but I am asking about a stock 110 A engine that the REAL concern is durability. 
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HD Street Performance

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Want a stock replacement that is similar in performance but easier on valve train, use the tts100. Personally I chose an Andrews 54h. Little different, not sexy but it works, is quiet, and easy on parts. I did no porting or changes to the heads other than springs (conical) seals and changed the lifters to hylift b-2313se
Any cam change then forces a retune.
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MCE

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With 40K miles, I would think the lifters would be questionable no matter what. I have 42K on my bike, I've
decided I won't ride it anymore until I can get in there and freshen it up, before it grenades. I know the chain
tensioners are probably shot.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but better safe than sorry. Allot of cases where ppl get way more miles out of them
but they're cheap insurance compared to the alternative.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 10:05:04 PM by MCE Performance »
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