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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: Twolanerider on September 01, 2018, 10:32:47 PM

Title: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Twolanerider on September 01, 2018, 10:32:47 PM
Only comparison I've been able to find so far is a parts manual side-by-side.  That should be instructive though.  Any new part or altered part should show a new part number or revision.  No other way to trust that old and new inventory aren't mixed.  That's not a gold standard of inventory management it's a minimum standard to avoid screw-ups.

That being so if Mother Harley is adhering to this basic minimum standard all the talk of new engines and specialty machining crankcase improvements for 2019 appear to be a wee bit bupkus.  At least if you believe the parts manuals.

Just finished doing a side-by-side of 2018 and 2019 parts diagrams for comparable CVO touring bikes. Exploded views of the engine cases and all their associated parts.  Everything was the same.

Found one difference between 2018 and 2019 in the cam chest.  It's not the oil pump.  Same part number for oil pumps (62400182) for both years.  Only difference between bottom ends in 2018 versus 2019 is a different oil pump cover with 2019 going to a cover that includes a new seal that didn't exist in 2018.  The seal isn't a revision of a seal used the prior year.  Instead it is a completely new addition to the cam chest that appears to add an additional sealing surface/attempt outboard of the original o-ring (which is the same).  This of course suggest the cover part is new for whatever machining is necessary to accept that seal.  The new 2019 part number for this is 62400206.

Everything else in the bottom end appears to stay the same though.  It was admittedly cursory look but if one can trust revisions by part numbers all the promises/suggestions that were ostensibly given to the unfortunate souls with failed or multiply failed bikes seem to be just a bit... um... overblown.

Hopefully the new seal is an end-all and be-all of the problem.  Much like poking a hole in the primary and calling the fluid transfer problem fixed I'll prefer to see the fleet collect some real miles before taking the MoCo's word for it.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Twolanerider on September 01, 2018, 10:41:02 PM
...and speaking to those primary housing changes.  Comparison of 2018 versus 2019 parts breakdowns for a comparable bike from each year show zero differences in primary housings and associated parts. No hole poked in it.  No new vent.  No change at all.  Perhaps a change made in the sealing area where fluid might migrate between trans and primary?  Haven't looked there yet.  But parts manual for 2019 shows no atmospheric vent on a new bike.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 engine comparison with all the changes to solve sumping
Post by: J.D. on September 01, 2018, 10:55:29 PM
Great analysis!  I saw some new '19s and looked very clisely for any primary venting A-B with the '18s.  Couldn't identify any changes.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Twolanerider on September 01, 2018, 10:59:42 PM
Had to look more while I was at it.  Did find one change in the tranny that would speak to the oil transfer problem.  Honestly (if it works) I'd be much more sanguine with both its simplicity and its potential effect than I would be with just poking a hole in the primary case. 

They've added an oil slinger (in Harley tongue a "deflector") inboard of input shaft.  Whether it solves the problem will of course only be judged by miles on the fleet.  Just like with the new seal in the cam chest I'll keep my finger crossed that this is an effective solution.  It does at least have a ring of logic to the behavior that's been witnessed.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 engine comparison with all the changes to solve sumping
Post by: J.D. on September 01, 2018, 11:13:23 PM
Another great catch.  Of course that isn't visible externally, and if it works, I'd say the better solution.

Of course asking the dealer about any '19 design changes for the sumping, transmission oil transfer, or compensator issues.  "The what?"
Title: Re: 2018-2019 engine comparison with all the changes to solve sumping
Post by: Twolanerider on September 01, 2018, 11:15:58 PM
Another great catch.  Of course that isn't visible externally, and if it works, I'd say the better solution.

Of course asking the dealer about any '19 design changes for the sumping, transmission oil transfer, or compensator issues.  "The what?"

Amen to that.  The proof of the pudding is always in the eating.  So the proof the sumping or fluid transfers will only be proved in the longer duration riding.  We can only hope.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Lu on September 02, 2018, 12:33:08 AM
thanks for the info 2lane.  I guess we’ll know if these add-ons/fixes hold in a few weeks.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on September 02, 2018, 08:39:46 AM
Thank you for the information, great find.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Para Bellum on September 03, 2018, 05:16:58 PM
Thanks for looking into these issues, 2LR.  Great detective work.  Question about the sumping aspect:  Is there any evidence and/or logic that indicates the addition of the seal (with associated oil pump cover) would reduce the sumping?  Or is this another HD sure-hope-this-works band-aid?
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: CVOStreetglide on September 03, 2018, 06:21:27 PM
Many thanks for all of your detail sweat work.

It just doesn’t seem feasible that a simple “O” ring would fix these critical motor and crank case issues.

In the meantime there haven’t been any new or repeat issues reported on the site for a couple of months now.   

As you said time will tell for the 2018’s and the 2019’s.

Regards

Jerry
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: grc on September 03, 2018, 09:49:16 PM
If a manufacturer wants to hide a change they've made in order to avoid lawsuits, it is real easy to make the change but not document it via a part number change.  They no longer have that alpha suffix they used to add to the part numbers in the old days to signify a change to the part, so it's not as simple to detect changes as it used to be.  Even if the part number for the cases didn't change, that doesn't prove there was no change.

I guess we will see how they respond to future failures of the 2017 and 2018 M8's.  Will they replace the cases, or just add a cam chest seal?  How about if and when they have the first failure of a 2019?  Or does that new seal require machining to the case, thus the claim previously about a change to the 2019 cases?  Stay tuned.

Btw, it's strange how they heavily implied there was a change made to the 2019 cases when they were dealing with Heatwave's multiple failures, including telling him his last engine replacement had 2019 cases.  If an added seal in the cam chest was "the fix", why tell him they changed the cases?  Excuse me for being cynical, but Harley has given me and many others a lot of reasons over the years to be distrusting.

Jerry
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Twolanerider on September 04, 2018, 01:30:23 AM
If a manufacturer wants to hide a change they've made in order to avoid lawsuits, it is real easy to make the change but not document it via a part number change.  They no longer have that alpha suffix they used to add to the part numbers in the old days to signify a change to the part, so it's not as simple to detect changes as it used to be.  Even if the part number for the cases didn't change, that doesn't prove there was no change.

I guess we will see how they respond to future failures of the 2017 and 2018 M8's.  Will they replace the cases, or just add a cam chest seal?  How about if and when they have the first failure of a 2019?  Or does that new seal require machining to the case, thus the claim previously about a change to the 2019 cases?  Stay tuned.

Btw, it's strange how they heavily implied there was a change made to the 2019 cases when they were dealing with Heatwave's multiple failures, including telling him his last engine replacement had 2019 cases.  If an added seal in the cam chest was "the fix", why tell him they changed the cases?  Excuse me for being cynical, but Harley has given me and many others a lot of reasons over the years to be distrusting.

Jerry

One can't help but wonder about running changes not publicly documented.  That is such a craps shoot though.  So easy to get old inventory on a shelf that some parts picker has no clue is "old" and ship it out or use it. 

Using the crankcases as an example; the number for the cases stays the same.  Granted, a dealer should not have old stock of parts that require a VIN derivative.  But what if there is manufacturer stock that only waits for those VIN stampings?  Use that when there is more to the difference than the oil pump cover and its new seal and the job is not repaired.  It's just such a gamble not to document parts changes with revisions or new numbers.  I hope Harley isn't that duplicitous/careless.

Still not even close to trusting anything until the fleet collects miles.....
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Spiked Olive on September 04, 2018, 09:09:27 PM
Interesting information.

I have a 2017 CVO with the 114. Just had the 10k service done last Saturday. I have had zero issues to date. The tech spoke with me when he got back from the test ride and said my bike is perfect. I asked him if he checked for sumping still and he said no, not unless the owner complains of symptoms related. He said they had a few early on and it is a non-issue at this point. Don't shot the messenger, simply sharing what I was told.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: laylonlor on September 05, 2018, 06:29:10 PM
thanks for your time  on this  :mango:
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Puzzled on September 05, 2018, 07:17:52 PM
Great work with the parts update/difference find.  :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Rooster on September 06, 2018, 09:35:01 AM
Interesting information.

I have a 2017 CVO with the 114. Just had the 10k service done last Saturday. I have had zero issues to date. The tech spoke with me when he got back from the test ride and said my bike is perfect. I asked him if he checked for sumping still and he said no, not unless the owner complains of symptoms related. He said they had a few early on and it is a non-issue at this point. Don't shot the messenger, simply sharing what I was told.
Hope your answer is correct and not just another dealer denial. Sorry it's just hard for me to believe what the dealers say as they all seemed to either act dumb to deny the early 110 issues back in the day. Being told your bike is perfect has got to be a nice feeling anyway.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: grc on September 06, 2018, 11:55:52 AM
Interesting information.

I have a 2017 CVO with the 114. Just had the 10k service done last Saturday. I have had zero issues to date. The tech spoke with me when he got back from the test ride and said my bike is perfect. I asked him if he checked for sumping still and he said no, not unless the owner complains of symptoms related. He said they had a few early on and it is a non-issue at this point. Don't shot the messenger, simply sharing what I was told.

Not taking any shots, you're just reporting what someone told you.  But I hope you understand that just because someone at a dealership tells you something is not an issue it isn't necessarily true.  In my experiences it is rarely true.  And if it was true, why are we still seeing new reports of failures on recently purchased 2018 models?  Dealership people have been telling customers obvious defects are normal, they all do that, I've never heard of that problem, etc., for decades.  I've often wondered if that is part of the "factory training" they supposedly receive. ::)

Jerry
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Rooster on September 06, 2018, 02:34:05 PM
Maybe they drink they drink the  MOCO Kool-Aide Jerry :huepfenjump3:
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Fatboy on September 06, 2018, 08:20:17 PM
Well my local Dealer tried to put me at ease by gleefully stating "all our new bikes come with a lifetime powertrain warranty"!  ;D

I replied I'd rather know that the M8 issues have been acknowledged and the root cause(s) identified by the MFG as well as permanently remedied with documented proof so a "lifetime powertrain warranty" doesn't ever need to come into play for previously known engineering and design flaws.

Guess I scared him off as he quickly turned and scurried back to his office. LOL.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Twolanerider on September 06, 2018, 08:48:06 PM
Well my local Dealer tried to put me at ease by gleefully stating "all our new bikes come with a lifetime powertrain warranty"!  ;D

I replied I'd rather know that the M8 issues have been acknowledged and the root cause(s) identified by the MFG as well as permanently remedied with documented proof so a "lifetime powertrain warranty" doesn't ever need to come into play for previously known engineering and design flaws.

Guess I scared him off as he quickly turned and scurried back to his office. LOL.


Those selling dealer only warranties are very nice to have; so long as you never go more than 50 miles from home.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: flhse on September 22, 2018, 05:49:28 PM
Only comparison I've been able to find so far is a parts manual side-by-side.  That should be instructive though.  Any new part or altered part should show a new part number or revision.  No other way to trust that old and new inventory aren't mixed.  That's not a gold standard of inventory management it's a minimum standard to avoid screw-ups.

That being so if Mother Harley is adhering to this basic minimum standard all the talk of new engines and specialty machining crankcase improvements for 2019 appear to be a wee bit bupkus.  At least if you believe the parts manuals.

Just finished doing a side-by-side of 2018 and 2019 parts diagrams for comparable CVO touring bikes. Exploded views of the engine cases and all their associated parts.  Everything was the same.

Found one difference between 2018 and 2019 in the cam chest.  It's not the oil pump.  Same part number for oil pumps (62400182) for both years.  Only difference between bottom ends in 2018 versus 2019 is a different oil pump cover with 2019 going to a cover that includes a new seal that didn't exist in 2018.  The seal isn't a revision of a seal used the prior year.  Instead it is a completely new addition to the cam chest that appears to add an additional sealing surface/attempt outboard of the original o-ring (which is the same).  This of course suggest the cover part is new for whatever machining is necessary to accept that seal.  The new 2019 part number for this is 62400206.

Everything else in the bottom end appears to stay the same though.  It was admittedly cursory look but if one can trust revisions by part numbers all the promises/suggestions that were ostensibly given to the unfortunate souls with failed or multiply failed bikes seem to be just a bit... um... overblown.

Hopefully the new seal is an end-all and be-all of the problem.  Much like poking a hole in the primary and calling the fluid transfer problem fixed I'll prefer to see the fleet collect some real miles before taking the MoCo's word for it.

Well, just had to buy one, here are a couple photo's of the new seal on the cover.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: flhse on September 22, 2018, 05:49:59 PM
The other photo
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Twolanerider on September 22, 2018, 06:29:46 PM
The pictures beg the obvious question Brad.  Since the seal carries a separate part number itself with the part in hand does it look to be as simple a replacement as the pictures suggest?
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: flhse on September 22, 2018, 08:51:15 PM
Well Don, I'd like to think so however without seeing what the seal mates up to inside the chest its kind of hard to say.  Couple more pics.

Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: flhse on September 22, 2018, 08:51:50 PM
second pic
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: SDCVO on September 22, 2018, 09:13:41 PM
Boy I hope it works! New bike coming in next week.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Heatwave on September 26, 2018, 11:49:28 AM
Why would anyone believe that this new oil pump will prevent sumping when a guy starts a new thread in this forum with a brand new 2019 CVO RG that's already sumping and he hasn't even hit his 1000 mile service? And over on HDForums a different guy posts a video of his 2019 CVO dumping quarts of boiling oil on the ground. Different 2019 bikes already sumping ... in only a matter of a few weeks after launch? These 2019 bikes have the exact same oil pump upgrade (#9 version or higher) that guys are going to run out and have installed thinking their sumping woes are over? I don't think so!
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: J.D. on September 26, 2018, 01:30:51 PM
Agree.  Blood is in the water and the sharks are circling.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: ultrarider123 on September 26, 2018, 03:09:58 PM
Miss me yet?..... ;D
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: skratch on September 26, 2018, 04:20:54 PM
nope.  still got my 2013   :bananarock:
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on October 13, 2018, 08:58:18 AM
Miss me yet?..... ;D
Nope, Have an old reliable 2003 Fatboy.

Also have a 13 CVO with the prone to lifter failure motor for when the M8 sumps.

Beside the V-rod can harley make a reliable motor?   Oops, the V-rod was a Porsche design.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: J.D. on October 13, 2018, 09:16:16 AM
That's exactly why I hang on to my 2002.  With the "hybrid" camplate upgrade and Torrington inner bearing it's pretty reliable.  Still has the good crank and crank bearings.  And of course carbureted whick is simple and reliable.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Rooster on October 13, 2018, 09:25:10 AM
I am holding on to my old EVO.  ;D
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: flhse on October 15, 2018, 07:47:50 PM
The pictures beg the obvious question Brad.  Since the seal carries a separate part number itself with the part in hand does it look to be as simple a replacement as the pictures suggest?

Well, check out this write up I ran across while looking at the torque cam. 

https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/milwaukee-eight-stage-ii-torque-kit

This kit was developed for the budget minded rider that wants to experience crisp throttle response and acceleration they can feel at slower speeds. The 5% increase in torque can be felt immediately off the line and continues to build by up to a 14% increase @ 4500 RPM – the ideal power band for passing slow moving vehicles. For ’17 and ’18 Touring models, installation of oil pump cover P/N 62400206 is recommended (sold separately). All models require ECM calibration with Screamin’ Eagle® Pro Street Tuner for proper installation. See Dealer for details. Pending approval for use in California on '19 models. Refer to the product information at www.H-D.com/shop for status.

    Delivers enhanced torque and horsepower in the low to mid RPM range
    Produces passing power without a downshift or high revs
    Minimally invasive only requiring opening of the cam chest
    Retains Original Equipment Factory Warranty
    Stage II Upgrade
    50-State U.S. EPA compliant
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: grc on October 16, 2018, 08:13:51 AM
Well, check out this write up I ran across while looking at the torque cam. 

https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/milwaukee-eight-stage-ii-torque-kit

This kit was developed for the budget minded rider that wants to experience crisp throttle response and acceleration they can feel at slower speeds. The 5% increase in torque can be felt immediately off the line and continues to build by up to a 14% increase @ 4500 RPM – the ideal power band for passing slow moving vehicles. For ’17 and ’18 Touring models, installation of oil pump cover P/N 62400206 is recommended (sold separately). All models require ECM calibration with Screamin’ Eagle® Pro Street Tuner for proper installation. See Dealer for details. Pending approval for use in California on '19 models. Refer to the product information at www.H-D.com/shop for status.

    Delivers enhanced torque and horsepower in the low to mid RPM range
    Produces passing power without a downshift or high revs
    Minimally invasive only requiring opening of the cam chest
    Retains Original Equipment Factory Warranty
    Stage II Upgrade
    50-State U.S. EPA compliant

Same kind of response everyone got on earlier issues like the compensator.  Harley will be more than happy to SELL you the supposed fix to a problem they created, instead of them providing it under the factory warranty and free of charge.  And they will get away with it this time, just like they have so many times in the past, because the typical customer will let them get away with it.  They've been conditioning customers to accept this kind of shoddy treatment for a very long time.

Jerry
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Robmay on October 18, 2018, 11:36:34 AM
 Man. I’m rethinking my decision to trade my 17 SG on the Mako now.

Cons-
    Both have the potential to sump.
   Spending another $15,000-$17,000 difference.

Pros (?) -
   Having one bike air cooled again (no lowers!)
   Having a 117 vs 114
    Factory 2 year warranty (warranty almost done on SG).
   Having two Road Glides!!
   

 :drink:

Rob
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on October 19, 2018, 08:30:04 AM
Rob,

I would have never believed it when I traded my 17 SESG for my 18 SERG that the 3 cubic inch increase would be noticeable.  However it really is.  The reason is the 117 has a different cam, and it is an improvement.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Robmay on October 19, 2018, 10:17:57 AM
That’s good to hear. Thank you Dave.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: SDCVO on October 19, 2018, 06:36:38 PM
Man. I’m rethinking my decision to trade my 17 SG on the Mako now.


Rob
That's called "buyers remorse" we all get it..
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Robmay on October 19, 2018, 06:57:21 PM
That's called "buyers remorse" we all get it..

The good thing is...I haven’t bought it yet!  :drink:
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: jimcb1 on November 06, 2018, 01:08:17 PM
Is a cvo compensation the same as a non cvo
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Robmay on November 06, 2018, 08:33:17 PM
The good thing is...I haven’t bought it yet!  :drink:

Worked the numbers out today. Mako is shipping (supposedly) this Friday the 9th. Keeping my fingers crossed on this sumping issue. 👀

 :drink:
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on November 07, 2018, 08:32:08 AM
Worked the numbers out today. Mako is shipping (supposedly) this Friday the 9th. Keeping my fingers crossed on this sumping issue. 👀

 :drink:
Congratulations, that is a beautiful bike.  Be sure and post pictures when you get it.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: JPerham301 on November 07, 2018, 09:09:38 AM
Im being told by SD Harley I have a sumping issue with my 2019 RG CVO with a stage 4. Now what????
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Heatwave on November 07, 2018, 09:47:36 AM
Im being told by SD Harley I have a sumping issue with my 2019 RG CVO with a stage 4. Now what????

How did they determine it sumped? Does it have the latest oil pump?
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Robmay on November 07, 2018, 05:41:26 PM
One common thing with some of this sumping seems to be the stage 4. I've never done a stage 4 so not sure what the correlation would be.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: Fired00d on November 07, 2018, 06:58:08 PM
One common thing with some of this sumping seems to be the stage 4. I've never done a stage 4 so not sure what the correlation would be.
Maybe the stage 4 makes them faster than their reliability. :nixweiss: :oops: :evilgrin:

 :pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 :fireman:
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: SDCVO on November 08, 2018, 01:27:30 AM
How did they determine it sumped? Does it have the latest oil pump?
None of this makes sense. Stage 4 has not been certified by CA still so there is no way a CA dealer has access to the Harley tuner download needed to install in a 19. I know this because my bike is still sitting at the dealer 20 miles from SD Harley ready to go with exception of them being able to complete the exchange with my 17 Streetglide (my settlement with Harley over multiple sumps) because of the stage 4. I have spoke to the person at MoCo who is the local reps boss and they want as bad as I do to finalize this 6 month “adventure” but they would be subject to incredible fines from the state if they released the stage 4 downloads to the CA dealers. I guess SD Harley could have installed the stage 4 and tried to use a different tuning device or a incorrect download from MoCo for the Harley tuner which Would explain why bike ran so bad but that would be felony stupid on their part and would now be solely responsible for a bad motor whether it sumped or any other explanation.
This one boggles my mind!
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: JPerham301 on November 15, 2018, 10:21:19 PM
MOCO has decided to install a new motor on my 2019 Road Glide CVO. The map was officially approved last Friday. The oil pump was the problem per the tech that was flown out. Hopefully the 2nd oil pump will hold up.
Title: Re: 2018-2019 comparison of engine and primary changes
Post by: 1Riseaboveit on November 20, 2018, 11:13:41 AM
Great information. Thank you!