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[porthole]

DUI FF hits motorcylist

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/html5/video?id=9246433&pid=9246411&section=news/local/san_francisco

[North Georgia Hawg]

DUI FF hits motorcylist

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/html5/video?id=9246433&pid=9246411&section=news/local/san_francisco

I don't even know what to say about this. Very sad for the motorcyclist. I hope he fully recovers.

But if that FF was indeed driving a fire truck intoxicated... the book fully needs to be thrown. It would be a disgrace to the MANY FFs in this country... and on this site... who put their lives on the line every day to protect lives.

Ken

[longlast]

I fully agree with you Ken!! If it's found he was intoxicated then the full wrath of the law should be implemented.

I'm sorry for his fellow F.F because of one bad apple dose not mean all are. The bad part is that it's suspected his fellow FFs may have tried to cover up for him,....NOT a good move!!

I for one salute FFs for putting their lives on the line to save others.

As for the the rider Jack Frazier, Prayers for your recovery 

[2k]

Hard for me to take sides. Flashing red lights do not give a EV the automatic RoW. If the driver had been drinking on duty, case closed. The motorcyclist appeared to be at a high rate of speed and had he approached the intersection carefully it would have been different. Still, drunk on duty.....case closed.

[North Georgia Hawg]

Hard for me to take sides. Flashing red lights do not give a EV the automatic RoW. If the driver had been drinking on duty, case closed. The motorcyclist appeared to be at a high rate of speed and had he approached the intersection carefully it would have been different. Still, drunk on duty.....case closed.

Jimmy - I noticed that in the video, too. The bike did appear to be going pretty fast for city streets. Can't prove he was speeding though, and he did have the green light. The fire truck blew through his red light.

I would think that the flashing lights on the fire truck could have been seen by the biker long before he got to the intersection. They are very bright and grab your attention, and they reflect all over everything, even if you can't yet see them directly.

What a mess.

Ken

[Fired00d]

Jimmy - I noticed that in the video, too. The bike did appear to be going pretty fast for city streets. Can't prove he was speeding though, and he did have the green light. The fire truck blew through his red light.

I would think that the flashing lights on the fire truck could have been seen by the biker long before he got to the intersection. They are very bright and grab your attention, and they reflect all over everything, even if you can't yet see them directly.

What a mess.

Ken

No bearing on this particular incident but you would be surprised at how many drivers "don't see" (at least they say the don't see) or yield to red lights/siren/air horn when you pull up behind them.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[spydglide]

No bearing on this particular incident but you would be surprised at how many drivers "don't see" (at least they say the don't see) or yield to red lights/siren/air horn when you pull up behind them.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

And yet we're still surprised that they don't see bikers.    spyder

[sadunbar]

No bearing on this particular incident but you would be surprised at how many drivers "don't see" (at least they say the don't see) or yield to red lights/siren/air horn when you pull up behind them.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

What makes this story even sadder is the firefighters that tried to "aid" the intoxicated driver of the truck by taking him to a local pub and pumping water into him in an attempt to falsify the blood alcohol level.  That is incredibly bad judgment on their part.  Why do so many folks make bad situations worse by their actions after the fact.  Camaraderie and brotherhood are one thing.  But the ramifications of their actions on their families and their lives and on the biker are inexcusable.

[Twolanerider]

What makes this story even sadder is the firefighters that tried to "aid" the intoxicated driver of the truck by taking him to a local pub and pumping water into him in an attempt to falsify the blood alcohol level.  That is incredibly bad judgment on their part.  Why do so many folks make bad situations worse by their actions after the fact.  Camaraderie and brotherhood are one thing.  But the ramifications of their actions on their families and their lives and on the biker are inexcusable.

Scott, don't you know it's a biological truism that no human will ever learn the lessons of the Nixon White House.


Dood, have no idea of course what the rider did or didn't see in this case.  I know in my case, however, there have been times when I didn't hear the sirens until they were so close on me that the speeding vehicle startled me.  Noise proofing in some modern vehicles really is that good.  In daytime flashing lights may not do much at all either.

What I've been unexpectedly surprised by, however, have been a few odd times when emergency lights were seen at night but badly misinterpreted.  Can think of a couple of times.  Don't know whether it was odd reflections from tall building corridors happen to be in at the time or some other effect.  But I've "seen" lights and not only didn't know which way away from me they were but just knew they were still very far away; right up until the moment an air horn blew as the vehicle got to me.  Strobes only also have a weird effect, at least with me, that when coming right at me until they're very close I sometimes can't tell if they're incoming or going away from me. 

Don't get me wrong; emergency lights and sirens are a tremendous benefit.  But they're not the absolute signal to other traffic that the drivers in the big red trucks or black and whites like to comfort themselves in to believing.

[Fired00d]

....


Dood, have no idea of course what the rider did or didn't see in this case.  I know in my case, however, there have been times when I didn't hear the sirens until they were so close on me that the speeding vehicle startled me.  Noise proofing in some modern vehicles really is that good.  In daytime flashing lights may not do much at all either.

... 

Don't get me wrong; emergency lights and sirens are a tremendous benefit.  But they're not the absolute signal to other traffic that the drivers in the big red trucks or black and whites like to comfort themselves in to believing.

Agreed... Vehicles are more air/sound tight then before... add to that stereos are more powerful (louder), and more distractions in vehicles for drivers. What my (30) years of experience as an emergency vehicle operator has taught me (and what I translate into motorcycle riding) is make eye contact and due diligence to be safe. When approaching intersection(s) and wanting to proceed against a traffic signal we are taught to stop, make eye contact, look at the other vehicles wheels... if their wheels are stopped then our wheels can roll. Following that principle (their wheels turning my wheels should be stopped or their wheels stopped my wheels can turn) is what I remember to do when riding my bike.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[spydglide]

Always rode & lived by that rule of watching the drivers eyes for contact and the wheels stopping turning.  Worked up until a couple of yrs. ago when the driver pulled up, I made eye contact, and wheels stopped turning, next thing I know I'm looking at the front of his car as he accelerated into my path attempting to beat on-coming traffic from the other direction.  Just didn't want to wait, I guess.  Bad day for me and the Huckleberry was the result.  No fool proof way out there it seems.  spyder

[Twolanerider]

 if their wheels are stopped then our wheels can roll. Following that principle (their wheels turning my wheels should be stopped or their wheels stopped my wheels can turn) is what I remember to do when riding my bike.

We've got the same rules .  The Kid has even noticed this.  Then has done the ubiquitous "why do you do that?"  Then get the "ohhhh, I'm gonna do that."

[Fired00d]

Always rode & lived by that rule of watching the drivers eyes for contact and the wheels stopping turning.  Worked up until a couple of yrs. ago when the driver pulled up, I made eye contact, and wheels stopped turning, next thing I know I'm looking at the front of his car as he accelerated into my path attempting to beat on-coming traffic from the other direction.  Just didn't want to wait, I guess.  Bad day for me and the Huckleberry was the result.  No fool proof way out there it seems.  spyder

Spyder unfortunately it's not "foolproof" but the majority of the time it works in our benefit.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Porschestan]

Drinking on the job = zero tolerance

Covering up for friends = zero + zero tolerance..

Of course, just my opinion.

[SBB]

just my opinion.

Same as mine!
X2

 

SBB

[senorjeem]

Just think....if his so called friends woulda pumped him full of whiskey in that pub, then there would have been no way to prove if he was drunk before or after.    Bad business  though, no matter how you slice it

[DCFIREMANN]

What makes this story even sadder is the firefighters that tried to "aid" the intoxicated driver of the truck by taking him to a local pub and pumping water into him in an attempt to falsify the blood alcohol level.  That is incredibly bad judgment on their part.  Why do so many folks make bad situations worse by their actions after the fact.  Camaraderie and brotherhood are one thing.  But the ramifications of their actions on their families and their lives and on the biker are inexcusable.

That is BS!!!!! No amount of anything (except more alcohol or time will make a change) Water will make no change at all in you BAL!!!! I want to know what shift they work!!! If they work 24 hr shifts and they come on duty in the AM, then he must have been drinking at work!!!! Looks like he may have had a problem. IMHO he should not have been on the floor if the problem actually exists. If it did everyone in the station had to know or should have known. Looks like he will be doing something else for a career.

I just want to know why he has not been charged???

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[muddypaws]

Someone should go to jail..

[porthole]

Hard for me to take sides. Flashing red lights do not give a EV the automatic RoW. If the driver had been drinking on duty, case closed. The motorcyclist appeared to be at a high rate of speed and had he approached the intersection carefully it would have been different. Still, drunk on duty.....case closed.

RoW in most states have similar laws on the books.
For us, our laws are plain and simple. Some examples:

• All audible and visual warning devices must be used from the time the vehicle leaves the station until arrival at the incident

(We do modify that somewhat, as in no sirens or air horns etc at 2 am in residential neighborhoods etc.)

• Maximum speed is 10 mph over the posted speed limit if conditions are acceptable, posted speed limits only if not.

• Posted speed limits through controlled intersections with the RoW (green light)

• Max speed if crossing the double yellow is 20 MPH (eg approaching a traffic light around vehicles with a negative RoW)

• Negative RoW, eg stop sign or red light, the emergency vehicle shall come to a complete stop, and gain control of the intersection before preceding.

So in the incident of my original post, there is ZERO excuse for the collision. Collision, as it was no accident.

And to add to all the laws, at least in NJ, the driver is 100% responsible for his actions while in control of the vehicle. Our city rules also hold the officer in the right seat responsible to a degree.

[porthole]

I would think that the flashing lights on the fire truck could have been seen by the biker long before he got to the intersection. They are very bright and grab your attention, and they reflect all over everything, even if you can't yet see them directly.

As good as lights have gotten over the years with the advent of LED's there are times they are still difficult to see.

A typical structure alarm in my department has the possibility of apparatus responding from 3-6 stations. Knowing this we are constantly on the lookout for reflected light when approaching any roadway.

Being both a rider and driver of Fire rigs, I could see where it may have been not visible at all to the rider until it was "in his face". And that is why we have to have control of the intersection.
Now, if the truck had stopped at the light, and the rider still went through his green light at a high rate of speed that would be different - had the FF not been drunk.

[porthole]

No bearing on this particular incident but you would be surprised at how many drivers "don't see" (at least they say the don't see) or yield to red lights/siren/air horn when you pull up behind them.

Back in the 70's, LA PD did some emergency vehicle driver training videos. Kind of corny watching them, but in one example they showed a passenger in a vehicle (PO and police car) who was to raise his hand when he heard the police car with sirens passing them, at highway speeds. In each instance the back seat passenger, with windows open, did not hear the siren until the passing vehicle was almost along side.

[porthole]

What makes this story even sadder is the firefighters that tried to "aid" the intoxicated driver of the truck by taking him to a local pub and pumping water into him in an attempt to falsify the blood alcohol level.  That is incredibly bad judgment on their part.  Why do so many folks make bad situations worse by their actions after the fact.  Camaraderie and brotherhood are one thing.  But the ramifications of their actions on their families and their lives and on the biker are inexcusable.

This is old school stuff and in no way should be tolerated. There are potentially a lot of careers on the line here, from the driver and officer to everyone in the station who had knowledge.
Many years ago I have seen things in the fire house that would result in termination today. Some things incomprehensible given today's climate. But, when the officers are part of the problem and can't expect more from the subordinates.

And as much as I respect my union sometimes it does not work for the better.
Example, not saying which department, but..........

Getting hired and a very competitive market means having a clean record and driving history. Unless of course you know someone.
Then an prior DUI is over looked.

Suppose you don't give up your habits and get another DUI conviction and now your career is on the line because you can't drive without a license?
No problem, because of state and federal laws all you have to do is throw your hands up and say I have a problem and you get a 6 month vacation at a re-hab and all is forgiven.

With random substance abuse screening, you never know when your name comes up.
Your name comes up, you go pee, you fail............

But what if the name pulled was actually a sibling and they sent the wrong "person"?
The union steps in and fights for the member and will of course win due to a technicality.

Maybe it wasn't really a sibling's name but you have someone watching over you and that is the way it is made out to be?

Of course, the way to reward all of this is to get promoted.

The above is true and happens way more then many think.

[porthole]

I just want to know why he has not been charged???

You know why Mike. Because of all the policies in place, DA's have to make sure the T's are crossed and I's dotted properly so it will stick.

[D-N-D]

So sad for all involved.

[charles05663]

Outside of the accident, what about the safety of the other fire fighters?  Could he have been trusted to operate the ladder?  If I was fighting the fire I would not want my life or the lives of others (sounds like a movie) to be endangered.  I would not want to be a passenger on that truck if I knew the driver was impaired.

I am not a fire fighter and was only stating my opinion.