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[guppytrash]

Just a little rehash.  2009 SEUC4 Ness Big Sucker catless header and 1.75 fulsacs.
My comparison is to the SSERT that I had tuned at the local HD dealer.
I was never completely satisfied with the way my bike ran and felt that the high engine temps had not really improved at all after the race tuner.

So....  now the tmax with autotune.

First the good stuff about the tmax:
1. starts incredible, fires immediately, could not be happier with this improvement
2. simple to use and make adjustments
3. throttle now feels like a cable, much more direct, quicker throttle response, clean and crisp, there is a downside to this as it is not as smooth as it was before at low rpms.
4. more power, more fun to ride, did I mention more power.  
5. the pinging I have always had under heavy throttle and WFO (pebbles of gravel in the heads) is nearly 100% gone with some retarding of the timing. Not to say I may not occasionally hear it, but way way improved.  This improvement did not happen with the initial base map, this is me making some adjustments.  Original base map on tmax was no improvement over the SSERT.
6. Knowing the bike is adjusting fuel to both cylinders at all times while I am riding and after I have made adjustments to timing is outstanding.
7. Jamie at Fuel Moto has been great.
8. engaging the cruise control is much smoother... not a big deal but more a noticeable difference.

down sides
1. The first time I spoke with a Tech support guy at Zippers for some help getting my feet wet with the whole thing...well lets just say he was a GIANT azzhole.
2. the fuel to empty (r XX) did not work initially on the speedo.  Thanks to Jamie at Fuel Moto that problem was quickly resolved and now it works.  
3. when rolling off the throttle the rpms seem to hang at 2000 and slowly wind down from there.  I am sure this is to keep the rear wheel from driving the motor resulting in backfire popping, I am also sure with some time I will be able to work this out.
4. MPG's are down, but to be fair I know some of this is due to the new fun factor with the twisting of the right grip.
5. when rolling the throttle forward to disengage the cruise it does disconnect but not as direct as it did before, this associated with #3. sometimes makes me second guess whether it disconnected.  Again more a difference as it has always worked but feels different.


I can't say for sure what the results are for cooling the motor, I will need to wait until next summer for that.
Overall I am very happy with the Tmax.  I am a total rookie with it and will gladly take any advice from those with some experience.
As I get more experience with it I will add to the thread.  

[mjb765]

Good info as I am also thinking of doing a TMax.....one question....What fixed the miles to empy problem?

[Glide Boy]

You have to do a re-install of the stock ECM, and then put the Thundermax back in and it will put the miles to empty back.  I had the same problem, but they sent me a link to do this, and it was pretty simple to fix.

Glide Boy

[guppytrash]

You have to do a re-install of the stock ECM, and then put the Thundermax back in and it will put the miles to empty back.  I had the same problem, but they sent me a link to do this, and it was pretty simple to fix.

Glide Boy

Bingo!

[guppytrash]

Good info as I am also thinking of doing a TMax.....one question....What fixed the miles to empy problem?

Looking at your avatar, if your bike is 2010 or newer you will need an 09 exhaust for the right size O2 sensors and the correct location for the Tmax.

[mjb765]

Looking at your avatar, if your bike is 2010 or newer you will need an 09 exhaust for the right size O2 sensors and the correct location for the Tmax.

Already have an 09 catless headpipe sitting in the garage in case I decide to do it.

[guppytrash]

Made some more adjustment with the tmax.

I leaned the AFR to 14.0 between 2000-3000rpm at less than 30% throttle position and am now back to 40ish mpg's depending on driving conditions.  Used the "Air/Fuel-TPS@rpm" just click and drag the dots to bring the line to the AFR you want.

Then I retarded the timing 3 degrees and I have completely eliminated my pinging.  Used the "Timing vs Engine Speed"

My bike is running great!


     

[keith1450]

I just put the TMax in my 2011 SE RG...
With the Tmax I used a new 09 Vance and Hines pro pipe and of course the TMax O2 sensors.  I was concerned with the front O2 sensor fitting in there with the way the oil cooler is installed and oil lines are routed, not an issue.  If you do this, make sure you have the front O2 sensor torqued in before you put the pipe on. The install was super simple for both products, and they work well together.
I would agree to everything you've said about the fun factor.  My miles to empty works like a champ, never had to mess with reinstalling the old ECM.

[guppytrash]

Then I retarded the timing 3 degrees and I have completely eliminated my pinging.  Used the "Timing vs Engine Speed"

I thought I had competely eliminated the pinging but it is still there occasionally.   Maybe it's the Costco premium I am burning.
Still playing with the Tmax and still very happy with the results.  Some youtube videos that have been helpful and show how easy this is to use.


there are parts 2 and 3 also

[Rio]

i run a tmax on my 2010 cvo ultra.  i also ran the tmax on my 07 road glide.  the jury's not out yet with the new TBW sytem.  I have about 3,000 miles on my bike since i installed the tmax along with rinehart trues, and a rolland sands intake.  i love the automap feature, and my front & rear cylinder readings are 78% perfect.  I am running the v&h map...i think if i remember correctly #44.  what map are you running?  I am waiting for an update and match with the new Rinehart true duals.  i understand that Rinehart and T-Max are putting together a performance package so i am sure there will be updates by time the snow melts?  what map do you run?

[guppytrash]

Same map#44.

I am being very cautious with overstating how much I like this Tmax TBW just because of what you said. I don't have that many miles on it yet.  I don't think you can beat how easy it is to make adjustments and the autotune is great.  The TBW is much more sensitive now than it was before the Tmax.  I snap the throttle now and the front wheel jumps in first gear.
My mpg's are way down right now but that is 100% my fault.  I am always snapping the throttle open now.  The bike is twice as much fun to ride aggressive as it was with the SE Pro Race Tuner. 

I got mine after the weather cooled so my biggest question to you is...does it run cooler in the 85+ days?
I never felt the SE tuner did anything for cooling the motor.   

The performance of my bike is so much better now that I am considering just staying with the stock cams.  If I do change I will probably do the fueling 574 or TW7H.

[480Ruger]

How is it now that you have logged some miles?  Any more pros and cons?

Thanks,
Finn

[guppytrash]

The more I use it the more I like it.  
The one thing I will say that I don't like is the Attitude I have gotten with Zippers tech support.
They are wired to the positions of "there is something ELSE wrong with your bike...the Tmax is not the problem"  and  "everyone on the other end of the phone is a moron".
"You have an exhaust leak... You have an intake leak... Have you checked your crank runout... It is in the instructions..."
The instructions are good but they are not always up to date.  One of my questions was answered by "it is in the instructions, I know because I wrote them" to which I replied yes....and you just answered my previous question with it does not work that way anymore, even though that was in the instructions TOO...
example:
There is a test described in their instructions on how to test the O2 sensors, I repeated the exact test following the instructions a couple of times and had no luck.  The O2 sensors are supposed to warm up and read a value of 19.36.  Mine did not... so I called and found out the new Tmax's do not work that way.
There is several pages on "How to find Throttle Position of Detonation" that do not apply to TBW Tmax.  Works a little different now.
All of these examples are not a big deal except when I get treated initially like dumbazz it tends to rub my fur the wrong way.

If all the hype is true about how good the Revolution Performance EMS is I would recommend that over the Tmax.  Number one, because of the shiddy support I have had from
Zippers.  Number two, I don't like the fact the Tmax does not use the ACR's during start even though my bike starts 10 times better now, I got to believe there is more wear on the starter without the compression releases.  ( I would like to hear opinions on this..the bike fires so immediately now maybe there is less wear ) .  Number three, I am not sure about.. but have been told the original ECM has a knock sensor to retard timing automatically and that the Tmax does not.  (I have made several adjustments to my timing, and now have less, almost no pinging...certainly less pinging than with the SERT and original ECM)  

I am trying to give a fair and honest view.  
My bike, with the Tmax, runs cooler, starts better, and I like how easy it is to use.  I would recommend it to people who like to work on their own bikes, but not without making them aware of the above downfalls.

At some point I may have to buy a Rev Perf EMS to do the comparison and just keep the one I like the most and sell the other.  

[Twolanerider]

but have been told the original ECM has a knock sensor to retard timing automatically and that the Tmax does not.  
  

The "knock sensor" is the ion sensor system that's managed through the coil, plugs and wires.  And you're correct, the Thundermax doesn't use it.  And that Zippers treated you the way they did is unfortunately nothing new.  For some reason they seem to think it's ok to treat customers that way. 

You mentioned the EMS system from Revolution Performance.  If you should ever go that way you'll be awe struck at the difference in how the companies treat their customers.  The people at Revolution actually treat you well.  They are the single best and most pleasant shop to deal with for questions before or after you spend your money. 

[Ironhorse]

Sounds like you ha been dealing with James Ramsey at Zippers. He is exactly how you described him, as helpful as a screen door on a submarine and as personable as meter maid on a busy boulevard. I asked him to look at a map for suggestios. This is what he sent back to me.


Mark

I received your map- with request for assistance.  In order to properly help you, I will need more information.

 

·         Is the fuel mileage condition a new problem

·         when did the heat condition occur

·         what data can you provide to help support the heat problem?

·         did these conditions occur at the same time

o   If yes how long have you had the heat and fuel mileage condition

·         Was anything changed on your cycle before this condition occurred?

·         dyno chart showing a torque curve

·         copy of your fuel mileage log

o   with ThunderMax

o   with factory ECM/SERT

·         monitor log of you average riding trip you are attempting to emulate

o   minimum 5 minutes of ride time

·         description of your average riding style

·         copy of all warranty logs stored in the module

·         what fuel octane do you use

o   do you use any additive

·         cranking compression

o   current

o   immediately after build

·         brand/part number of spark plugs

·         are the spark plug wires factory

·         is the gearing factory

·         what brand and weight oil do you use

o   trans

o   primary

o   engine

·         how much oil is consumed in a 3500 mile period

·         weight of motorcycle as your ride it

·         how would rate the current drivability compared to the drivability with the SERT

·         do you usually ride by yourself or 2-up

·         what size rear tire

·         Air pressure you maintain on front and rear tire

·         do you have an additional speedometer calibration device

·         how many miles are on the bike

·         what mileage was the fuel filter last replaced

 

James Ramsey
Zipper's Performance Products
Phone 410.579.2828 ext 118

[guppytrash]

Yep James.  I would send that dude packing if he worked for me.  
Maybe Zippers should read this.
Arrogant personality, not 1 ounce of customer service in that guys personality.

[sadunbar]

My experience with Zippers was exactly as you both describe - the single worst customer service I have ever experienced.  They treated my like a novice idiot and were not only completely useless, but were insulting along the way.  My bike ran poorly with no power or acceleration and had horrible fuel mileage.  Everytime I would get it improved, over time it would deteriorate.  Zippers never once responded in a helpful manner.  And I truly wanted the T Max to work...

And my experience with the guys at Revolution Performance is just at Twolane has described.  The EMS is an outstanding plug and play product, and the customer service provided by Josh, Brian and Andrew has been nothing short of exemplary...

[guppytrash]

I can honestly say that I am happy with the Tmax and its performance.  Just not the support.

I have talked to Rev Perf EMS group and I would agree that they are an outstanding group to talk to.  If I were going to try another tuner this would be the one and I have said that to everyone who has asked me about my Tmax.

 

[Ironhorse]

So the point is if you buy the Zippers T-Max, do NOT expect decent help and support from them. Seek support elsewhere for their product.

[Twolanerider]

So the point is if you buy the Zippers T-Max, do NOT expect decent help and support from them. Seek support elsewhere for their product.

Which isn't always an easy thing to do Mark.  Their base map library is a crap shoot.  And very very (very) few tuners support and use their software.  That leaves a case where the most likely end user to need support is someone slightly less familiar with the process he's trying to get through.  That user then has to go to a forum and wade through the cacaphony that is often there to cherry pick what may or may not be the good advice from all the other chatter.

[480Ruger]

I put on the Tmax Sunday and it does make a difference from the SEPRT (black box) I had dyno tuned by a recommended Harley shop.   The bike does start easier (doesn’t use the ACRs?  Didn’t know that) and throttle response is much better.  I’ve only been 400 miles and most of that was twisting on it hard so no clue how the MPG will be but it has got to be better than the 35 I had before.  Started with the Tmax base map for Bub 7 TDX, high flow AC and stock 255 cams.  Not trying to jack the thread but does anyone have any tips or tricks I might need to know?

Thanks,
Gregg

[shindo]

My bike is running great with the TMax  I also have woods 555 cams and a D&D Fat Cat.
No need for support yet