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CVO Technical => Intake/Exhaust/ECM => Topic started by: Quint on October 15, 2007, 12:42:56 AM
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I just took delivery of an '08 FLHRSE4 Road King and I love the bike but I don't love the sound. I was quoted $2,300 for a set of Rinehart TDs with SERT and dyno time versus buying a pair of V&H Oval Slip-ons for $450 and installing them myself.
1. First, has anyone done this, and what were your results? Happy? Ecstatic? Not so much?
2. The FLHRSE4 already has less restrictive Screamin Eagle touring mufflers, which I'm guessing are similar to the V&H Oval Slip-ons for back pressure. Given that Las Vegas, NV is approx 2,000 ft above sea level, and therefore the air is slightly less dense, even the H-D maps which are lean due to EPA requirements, may still work ok with the new slip-ons. This is my opinion anyway, and anyone who feels free to challenge this with useable back-up information would be extremely well received.
All feedback genuinely welcomed!!! :2vrolijk_21:
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These bikes already run dangerously hot due to the lean mixture that the Moco has to set them to in order to meet the EPA requirements. Any free flowing exhaust will make an already lean engine even worse. With all of the issues that the 110" motors are having i would not do anything to make the matter worse. If you like the V&H slip ons you can go with them and add the Race tuner and tune for a richer mixture to cool the motor down.
my 2 cents.......
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take the muffler change out of the equation, you still need a tune!
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Quint,
Your statement about altitude and air density would be more accurate if you had a vehicle that didn't have a closed loop system constantly adjusting the fuel to maintain a 14.7:1 AFR. Less oxygen, system cuts fuel back to match. So, you folks at higher altitude don't get a free ride, you still have the same lean mixture & hot running issue as everyone else. Even the older EFI systems without O2 sensor feedback could approximate the same thing, through air pressure readings.
hd-dude and rednectum are right on the money, you need a proper tune no matter what you decide about the exhaust system. The bike will run cooler and smoother with a proper tune, contributing not only to your overall enjoyment of the bike but probably your engines long term reliability as well.
Uhhh, that Rinehart system and tune you mentioned, would that be the new gold plated Rinehart's? Regular Rinehart's can be had for significantly less than $1k (I believe MSRP is around $899.95), SERT's are around $450 MSRP, so I'm guessing almost $1k for the install and dyno. I'm not familiar with the market in your area, but that sure seems high. :confused5:
Jerry
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Quint,
Your statement about altitude and air density would be more accurate if you had a vehicle that didn't have a closed loop system constantly adjusting the fuel to maintain a 14.7:1 AFR. Less oxygen, system cuts fuel back to match. So, you folks at higher altitude don't get a free ride, you still have the same lean mixture & hot running issue as everyone else. Even the older EFI systems without O2 sensor feedback could approximate the same thing, through air pressure readings.
Jerry
Jerry
Thanks for the information - that is extremely helpful. Given that the HD closed loop system maintains the AFR at 14.7:1 regardless of altitude, does that also mean it will maintain the same AFR if I switch to V&H slip-on mufflers? Here's my thinking. If I spent another $2,000+ getting a true dual exhuast, SERT, installation and dyno time, my better half would have an apoplectic seizure, particularly given that I still need a different windshield, a more comfortable seat for her, etc. That's why I was thinking of installing the V&H slip-ons myself, and then at the 1,000 mile service, get it dyno tuned with the SERT. The reason for this is that I'm sure the stock HD exhaust is "reasonable" in that it is decent quality and will deliver enough horsepower for me - I don't need to be in the 110 HP club with this Harley - I have a 167 HP BMW sportsbike that gives me my speed thrills. Given that the bike is going to run at 14.7:1 anyway, I'm not really making matters any worse, am I?
Don't get me wrong: I completely understand that HD has the bike running way too lean from the factory, and this leads to excess heat, pre-detonation, less that stellar power, and jerky throttle response. I also understand the need for properly tuning it. But this stop-gap solution might give me the sound that I like with 95+% of its performance potential, without making any significant difference to the way the bike runs now, until I get it tuned. I'm just looking for facts rather than opinion. Again, your comments are most welcome...
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a little patience and you could install rush slip ons and thundermax autotune for a grand. patience because the 08 thundermax is not released yet.
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a little patience and you could install rush slip ons and thundermax autotune for a grand. patience because the 08 thundermax is not released yet.
Thread Hijack...
Dennis...have you had an opportunity to test/try any of the new slips they're (Rush) doing for the RH header pipes? Also, have you used their muffs with the tips? They have a lot of nice looking tips, and to my ear, a muff with a tip sounds a bit different than the one's made all in one piece.
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Quint,
The Harley system runs in closed-loop mode once it reaches normal operating temperature, from idle to approximtely 4000 rpm and less than 50% throttle. So, if you just add the V&H mufflers, keep the rpm's below 4000, and use less than half throttle, the bike should run in closed-loop at 14.7:1 AFR. In other words, no different than with the stock mufflers. As a short term thing, you should be OK.
Jerry
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Quint I checked some prices for you on that online auction website. You can by V&H dressers for $325 free ship and
Ovals for $390 free ship. The V&H 08 tuner is now available. I didn't look at the price on that. I plan to by the pipes and slip ons and install them myself. Put the V&H tuner on and run it through the break in period. After the break in
I'll take it in and have them install the SERT and Dyno the bike. The shop in Portland installs the SERT for $325. That
includes the Dyno time I believe. Even if you add $400 for the price of the SERT your paying them $900 to mount pipes and muffler. That's some steep labor. What do you figure it takes to install the pipes and mufflers 2 hour max.
Good luck with what ever you decide.
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Thread Hijack...
Dennis...have you had an opportunity to test/try any of the new slips they're (Rush) doing for the RH header pipes? Also, have you used their muffs with the tips? They have a lot of nice looking tips, and to my ear, a muff with a tip sounds a bit different than the one's made all in one piece.
none with tips. just shipped a set to a forum member, maybe he will report soon. for me, the rush is about performance and tunability foremost, and i happen to like the mellow low HZ sound. not a true dual fan, but if i had to run em, they would have rush mufflers.
sorry i couldnt answer your question better.
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That is me that bought the Rush's with the end caps. I got the slash ones that you can turn different ways. Similar to the HD ones, but these can be turned slash up or down. Really look good and thick. After the install I hit the starter button with anticipation, and thud. Tried it again, and thud. Sounds like the starter is out. 19K miles. Still have a little warranty left, so I took it in yesterday aft. We're leaving for a trip on Thursday AM. I really hate to get the bike back from the dealer and immediately leave for a trip as they usually screw up something. Last time they replaced the rear cylinder head and I left for a trip and the cruise didn't work. Hoipe my luck is better this time.
BTW, thanks Dennis. :2vrolijk_21:
Later, Robert
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Harley shop put RH true duals on without SERT, they said the O2 sensor would adjust. In less they two weeks the pipes had blued, and it was running hotter. My advice is to wait till you get the SERT installed first.
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I have the V&H Ovals with stock headers, SE air cleaner and the Race Tuner. The V&H are pretty loud, not as mellow sounding as the Rush but according to the Dyno charts for the 110 they put out about the same. 95 HP with 112 pounds of torque. The Rinehart's especially with true duels put out less again according to the Dyno charts that are posted on-line at Latus Motors HD for all to view. The V&H 4 inch standard pipe do better than the Ovals.