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[Nickmusic]

Hello from Cincinnati!  I'm a big fan of this message board and have a lot of respect for most of the opinions I read here.  Hoping to get some specific feedback on a new engine build I'm completing this winter.  First, I need to fully disclose that I am not a mechanic, nor do I have any real engine knowledge.

I have a 2015 FLHXS,  put 4000 miles on it this year, and decided it needs a solid power upgrade - both HP and Torque.  So, I took plenty of time to find one of the best engine builders in my area, which happened to be an HD tech with a stellar reputation.  I explained to him my goals for a significant power increase and here is what we decided -->  Screaming Eagle 110, MVA heads, 64mm throttle body, heavy-duty clutch, T-man 625 cams, SE Heavy Breather, SE Race Tuner, and D&D Boarzilla 2-1 exhaust. 

What are your thoughts?   Does this sound like a substantial increase in power? Any thoughts as to what I might expect for dyno numbers after the initial break-in?  Thanks for any feedback - much appreciated!

[sadunbar]

Hello from Cincinnati!  I'm a big fan of this message board and have a lot of respect for most of the opinions I read here.  Hoping to get some specific feedback on a new engine build I'm completing this winter.  First, I need to fully disclose that I am not a mechanic, nor do I have any real engine knowledge.

I have a 2015 FLHXS,  put 4000 miles on it this year, and decided it needs a solid power upgrade - both HP and Torque.  So, I took plenty of time to find one of the best engine builders in my area, which happened to be an HD tech with a stellar reputation.  I explained to him my goals for a significant power increase and here is what we decided -->  Screaming Eagle 110, MVA heads, 64mm throttle body, heavy-duty clutch, T-man 625 cams, SE Heavy Breather, SE Race Tuner, and D&D Boarzilla 2-1 exhaust. 

What are your thoughts?   Does this sound like a substantial increase in power? Any thoughts as to what I might expect for dyno numbers after the initial break-in?  Thanks for any feedback - much appreciated!

A few thoughts...

I'd suggest replacing the stock lifters with S&S or GMR lifters...

64mm is a lot of throttle body.  Slow speed/parking lot speed throttle response with be a handful.  I expect this large of throttle body will flow more than your intake manifold and possibly more than your heads and exhaust (which in my opinion makes it to large).  I run a 55mm HPI throttle body on my 120 130+/130+ motor and like the throttle response very much.

What size injectors are you planning to run in the throttle body?

Stock SE 110 heads with a little work will flow as much if not more than MVA heads, but there's nothing wrong with MVA heads either...

What valve springs do you plan to use on your MVA heads?  I'd suggest replacing the stock valve springs with AV&V 600 or 650 beehive springs to reduce strain on your valve train.  And I'd suggest replacing the stock iron valve guides with bronze valve guides - at least on the exhaust port.

There are lots of good cam choices.  T-man 625 is a reasonable choice.  I run T-man 662-1 cams.

Do you know who is going to tune your motor?  Your tuner should have a vote in what tuning system you use, since he's the guy that has to use it...

Good luck and have fun with your build!   

[prodrag1320]

Ide be thinking of doing the lower end too

[JCZ]

Nickmusic you mention that you have one of the best engine builders around....he should be able to tell you what this build will produce.  Should even have dyno sheets to show you, if he's a really experienced builder.  What does he say this build will do for you hp and tq?  What's the curve going to look like?

Curious why he's suggesting the 64mm throttle body?  What's your end goal with this build?

[HD Street Performance]

I assume high compression pistons were part of this build?

[fastfreddy]

if you give TR a call he will give you the info your looking for, im running his 625 cam and laid out the build with him before hand. he will let you know your gona need comp. around 10.6 to 10.8, and that size TB will be over kill. 

[Para Bellum]

Couple of questions here:
1.  did you tell this tech how much money you want tospend, and he made a list to use it all?
2.  Does this HD tech have a reputation just as a great repair guy, or also as a high performance builder?

What I see in your list is a lot of money spent on expensive parts, which will benefit the dealer and/or tech, but no mention of higher compression to support the 625 cam, or of a bore-and-hone to blueprint the cr@ppy HD stock cylinders, which often are out of round and/or tapered.  There's also no mention of fixing some of the well-known trouble-spots on our 110s, such as lifters.  And I assume this guy is going to do the (dyno) tune with the "SE Race Tuner," (by which I mean is probably a SEPST) and will probably just install a HD canned map.  So you will end up with a very expensive engine that has lots of blow-by, uses too much oil, isn't tuned worth a dollar, and doesn't run nearly as well as it should for the amount of money you've spent on it.

To be blunt, he sounds more like a parts replacer than a tech, and more like a salesman for his dealer than a serious performance builder.

[Mr. Warlock]

I agree 100% with Sadunbar regarding the 64mm TB, it's too big, a 58 is on the edge of being too big. Also, the Boarzilla pipe on a 110 is on the edge of being too big, a D&D Fat Cat is a better choice unless you plan on going bigger cubes later. The 625 Cams are an excellent choice IMO. Need to be concerned with all the spring and guide advice above.

[Ridgerunr]

Sadunbar gives good advice. I also ran a HPI 55 throttle body, on a 113", it was  big enough.

[sadunbar]

I assume high compression pistons were part of this build?

Since the O.P stated he's not technically inclined, it might be useful to tell him you ask this question due to his cam choice, which requires higher than stock compression to perform as intended...   

[sadunbar]

Ide be thinking of doing the lower end too

To the O.P. - Kirby suggests thinking of doing the lower end of your motor due to the reputation and past issues with stock MOCO flywheels.  With higher than stock horsepower motors (and with some stock horsepower motors) the flywheels sometimes "scissor", which can be catastrophic.  This was more common a few years ago than today.  With enough horsepower/torque it's a possibility with stock flywheels.  There are several competent aftermarket companies that can improve your stock flywheels and a company like S&S offers new replacement flywheels that are superior to stock MOCO flywheels.

[havenolife]

Are you talking about Steve Miller from Cininnati Harley

[prodrag1320]

if your looking for a good,reliable build that will give very good power & still be able to ride it anywhere you want,ide do:
have your 110 heads worked (with AV&V guides)
HPI 55mm t. body
10.5-1 pistons
S&S .585 cam kit
S&S std. lifters
plug & true the F/W assy

[HUBBARD]

  My question..........Is this guy, (the Tech), one of many "experts" in the HP business?  I agree with all the comments posted on the request for advice, especially sandunbar's advice, except for this one...........I don't know TR, so I can't comment on that.  Robert Yates once told me..."Speed cost money...how fast do you wanna' go?"  It can cost a whole lot more money, if you get reeled in by some of the "experts", and it still won't run.  I'm not implying this builder's advice is disingenuous, but to me, his suggestions have a very specific aroma to them......like bullchit.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD   

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Too large of a T/b , pipe is a bit large ( not out of the ball park though) heads are wrong for the cam choice, 



Do not be shocked if a guy on a 110 with a cam can pull away from you with ease.. That kit would need to see a high rpm number to be making any real tq.



 

113 + 58 t/b bolt in cam that pipe and stock heads will yield very nice power and cost way less .  ( here is one with the pipe you choose stock heads . 58 t/b and the zilla  and the 113 bolt on kit . For now its coming back for CNC  on his heads)   Its an example nothing more

[Nickmusic]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.  If I choose to let my engine builder proceed with the 64mm throttle body (instead of something smaller like most of you suggest), what will I notice when riding?  Too jumpy on the throttle response?  Poor fuel efficiency?  Just asking because I have no idea what to expect.   

[HD Street Performance]

Yes yes and hard to tune

[North Star]

Dude, seriously dont do it. All the advice you are getting is the real deal. Choose a reputable shop, better even if its one of the forum members youve been hearing from that own shops, and do the combos that are being suggested. You will end up with an engine with great low to mid end torque, that will tune properly. The combo your guy is suggesting is unusual and highly unorthodox, not mention excessively expensive, and will not perform the way you want a touring bike to perform. 

[HUBBARD]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.  If I choose to let my engine builder proceed with the 64mm throttle body (instead of something smaller like most of you suggest), what will I notice when riding?  Too jumpy on the throttle response?  Poor fuel efficiency?  Just asking because I have no idea what to expect.

Right after you say to yourself,  "WTF is wrong with this thing?", you're gonna hear a small still voice say, "Dummy, you should have listened to those guys on the CVO Site."  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.  If I choose to let my engine builder proceed with the 64mm throttle body (instead of something smaller like most of you suggest), what will I notice when riding?  Too jumpy on the throttle response?  Poor fuel efficiency?  Just asking because I have no idea what to expect.

your wallet will be lighter, and as I said a guy that has a basic kit with the proper items all working together will be faster than your mis- matched kit .. You seem to want to go with that kit as you still are not listening.. You want to find out if the bad habits it will have , will be ok and can you justify it..

Your builder should have explained all of this to you.. Best advice I can offer .. Simple find a new builder.. These kits are not that hard to get the right parts to work together.  Take me advice or dont ,, I get a dozen of these types a builds in each year to correct.. Some of the guys on here have been down this very road.  We are a shop that builds, tunes etc so we see the complete kit from start to finish..   IF you had a dyna that you wanted to street race then maybe you are on the right track with SOME of the parts

[JoeVibe]

Nick,

Do yourself a favor and listen to what these guys are telling you. I was in basically the same position as you in 2014. I had 4,500 miles on my 13 Ultra and wanted more power so started looking around locally and didn't feel confident in anything I heard around home. (I used to drag race cars and knew how to make them go fast but didn't know anything about Harleys). Maybe you can discuss the things you're learning here with your local guy and get his feedback. For sure, get some references from past builds he's done and talk with those folks. In my case, I couldn't find three people who were happy with the local dyno tuners and IMO that's the most critical part of what you're getting into.

I PM'ed a couple guys on this site (whose opinions I respected based on posts I'd read from them) to get some advice. I ended up going with Steve @ GMR for my build. Steve and I talked about what I wanted as an end result and he told me how to get there. 11,000 trouble free miles later I still smile every time I crack the throttle and my riding buddies are still trying to figure out how the hell my bike moves like it does.

I know the thought of a road trip can be daunting but, take my word for it, it's worth the effort! I'll be making another run down there (as soon as I can get my "stuff" together) so Steve can do a little work  on the Road King I bought a few weeks back.

Call or PM some of the builders on this site and talk one on one with them. You're about 3 hours further from GMR than I am and there may be a good performance builder closer to you, I'm not sure where they're all located.

Whatever you decide, do enough research to be confident in your choice so you can do it right the first time. Making these things go fast isn't cheap and having to do it twice, or having to settle for a less than optimum result, would suck. Good luck!

[Para Bellum]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.  If I choose to let my engine builder proceed with the 64mm throttle body (instead of something smaller like most of you suggest), what will I notice when riding?  Too jumpy on the throttle response?  Poor fuel efficiency?  Just asking because I have no idea what to expect.

It sounds like this HD tech believes you want maximum horsepower, since you asked him for a significant increase in power.  That would be fine if you were going to run only at the track at high RPM.

Check this: 

Do not be shocked if a guy on a 110 with a cam can pull away from you with ease.. That kit would need to see a high rpm number to be making any real tq.

For street riding, you need a build that develops torque at lower RPM.   Here's a suggestion:  Post a question asking for recommendations on a good builder; and, just as important, determine what you want from this bike.  Do you want something that is only usable at the track (all high RPM running) or do you want a bike that hauls a$$ from a stop and has plenty on tap for passing from 40 mph to 80 mph?  The people on this site know the difference between the two types of build, and the advice you've gotten here is right on target.

As for your question about the 64 mm TB, look at this another way:  Why would you want to go with the 64?  What are you going to gain with it, that you can't get with a smaller one, other than bragging rights?  And how will you feel when far cheaper builds leave you in the dust?

This HD tech and this build are just setting you up to spend big money---once for this build, and again when you take it somewhere to make it right.  The advice here will save you money and the hassle of a poor running bike that has to go into the shop to be rebuilt.

[SneakyPete]

Nick,

Do yourself a favor and listen to what these guys are telling you. I was in basically the same position as you in 2014. I had 4,500 miles on my 13 Ultra and wanted more power so started looking around locally and didn't feel confident in anything I heard around home. (I used to drag race cars and knew how to make them go fast but didn't know anything about Harleys). Maybe you can discuss the things you're learning here with your local guy and get his feedback. For sure, get some references from past builds he's done and talk with those folks. In my case, I couldn't find three people who were happy with the local dyno tuners and IMO that's the most critical part of what you're getting into.

I PM'ed a couple guys on this site (whose opinions I respected based on posts I'd read from them) to get some advice. I ended up going with Steve @ GMR for my build. Steve and I talked about what I wanted as an end result and he told me how to get there. 11,000 trouble free miles later I still smile every time I crack the throttle and my riding buddies are still trying to figure out how the hell my bike moves like it does.

I know the thought of a road trip can be daunting but, take my word for it, it's worth the effort! I'll be making another run down there (as soon as I can get my "stuff" together) so Steve can do a little work  on the Road King I bought a few weeks back.

Call or PM some of the builders on this site and talk one on one with them. You're about 3 hours further from GMR than I am and there may be a good performance builder closer to you, I'm not sure where they're all located.

Whatever you decide, do enough research to be confident in your choice so you can do it right the first time. Making these things go fast isn't cheap and having to do it twice, or having to settle for a less than optimum result, would suck. Good luck!

X2, good advice

[KC2GIW]

I put too big a TB and upgraded clutch on my last built engine - it's quite a bit hard to maneuver through parking lots and slow speed twists/turns.  I found it much MUCH less enjoyable to ride with such a sensitive throttle. 

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

With the right tuner you can slow the blade down, however with some builds it can still be touchy my 124 with the 640 and the 66 mm is not the smoothest , however the HPI 62 unit is much smoother due to the design of the entry. They have it built up above plate on the bottom so the small opening are not moving as much air . Makes for a extremely smooth low opening .   However the SE 64 is a nasty mother to tune and the stream inj they have are icing on the turd cake ..

[Rooster]

With the right tuner you can slow the blade down, however with some builds it can still be touchy my 124 with the 640 and the 66 mm is not the smoothest , however the HPI 62 unit is much smoother due to the design of the entry. They have it built up above plate on the bottom so the small opening are not moving as much air . Makes for a extremely smooth low opening .   However the SE 64 is a nasty mother to tune and the stream inj they have are icing on the turd cake ..
 :huepfenjump3:Thanks Steve you made my day with that.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Well all you need to do is a tune a half dozen of the 120 Hurricane kits with ALL  SE parts and you will have a great understanding of poor low speed throttle response and a MAJOR case of PMS .  But it does make some nice big end power..

[JCZ]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.  If I choose to let my engine builder proceed with the 64mm throttle body (instead of something smaller like most of you suggest), what will I notice when riding?  Too jumpy on the throttle response?  Poor fuel efficiency?  Just asking because I have no idea what to expect.

Again, what does your engine builder tell you to expect?

Nickmusic you've posted twice on this forum.....both times asking for advice and opinions.  You have many replies however, you've not answered any of the questions asked of you.  Not one person.....people that have personal experience as well as those that make a living building motors.....has suggested that you run with that TB.  When the masses speak..... 

It's been suggested that you just call and talk with a couple of these builders here then compare to what your guy is telling you.  Just something to consider here......your guy working at a dealership has a job wether it's the correct components or not.  These independent builders business depends on their reputations.....it's all they have to stand on.

[Rooster]

Again, what does your engine builder tell you to expect?

Nickmusic you've posted twice on this forum.....both times asking for advice and opinions.  You have many replies however, you've not answered any of the questions asked of you.  Not one person.....people that have personal experience as well as those that make a living building motors.....has suggested that you run with that TB.  When the masses speak..... 

It's been suggested that you just call and talk with a couple of these builders here then compare to what your guy is telling you.  Just something to consider here......your guy working at a dealership has a job wether it's the correct components or not.  These independent builders business depends on their reputations.....it's all they have to stand on.

Well said JC, and that is exactly the difference.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

He stated to me that he spoke with another guy that had the same build it was making huge power .. But I would love to see the sheet, Who know it may be the best way to build a engine. However based on real tuning & building I find it hard to wrap my head around much of anything with that kit. But just like testing you have to build it and test it.. If he wants that kit as it seems as he has not really gotten back with solid answer . I saw buy it have it tuned and post the dyno sheet.. 

[sadunbar]

With the right tuner you can slow the blade down, however with some builds it can still be touchy my 124 with the 640 and the 66 mm is not the smoothest , however the HPI 62 unit is much smoother due to the design of the entry. They have it built up above plate on the bottom so the small opening are not moving as much air . Makes for a extremely smooth low opening .   However the SE 64 is a nasty mother to tune and the stream inj they have are icing on the turd cake ..

I ran an HPI 62mm throttle body on my 120 motor for a bit, but replaced it with an HPI 55mm throttle body due to difficult low speed maneuvering.  The low speed throttle response was much improved with the HPI 55mm throttle body.  It was tuned with both throttle bodies by Josh Hansen - a very capable tuner.  This was with a cable driven throttle body.  Perhaps there are more tuning options with a FBW throttle body...  I don't know...

[Unbalanced]

I have the 62 HPI on 2 bikes and have no low end drivability issues, both have 6.22 injectors.   Maybe I am just lucky with Sach's porting and Ed Dahir and Rob's tuning


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hrdtail78]

I have tested the HPI 55, 58 elip, S&S 66 and the HPI 62 on on my 124r with 662-2 cam.  In that order.  I saw no more power with any of them.  TB wasn't the choking point and I have a streetable redline.  6200.  Parking lot drivability, TB noise, and throttle response was a big difference in the test.  The 66 was the turd.  More to TB's than the size of the blade.  Shape of the manifold, bell mouth, and bifurcate will all play along.  The HPI units being a 2 piece is also an advantage.

Sounds to me like the dealer put you into one of their most expensive part builds that in the end will be a waste of money that wont put out any more than a well thought out, bang for the buck, proven combo build.

[fresch]

Heads:
2.100 Intake Valve    (stock 2.08)
1.650 Exhaust Valve  (stock 1.63)
Hand ported Bowl with short turn radius
Thermal Coated Combustion Chambers,Ports and Valves
Jims Roker arm bushings
Zippers competition valve job with step guides and lower collars
Viton Valve seals
Skimmed head gasket surface

Piston/Cylinders:
+010 Oversize 10.5:1 Forged pistons (515 grams)
Thermal Coated Piston tops
Machine piston pin boss to 1.200+ for Dark Horse Rod
Zippers Cylinder Studs
Bored Cyliners with Torque plates

Flywheels and Cases:
Zippers Left Side Sprocket Timken Bearing Conversion
Dark Horse prepared Flywheels with Lighten Screamin Eagle Flywheel and
Dark Horse Connecting Rod
Balanced and blueprinted assembly.

Cams:
Redshift 657-HS Cams
Torrington Cam bearings
Fueling Billet cam plate
Zippers dual-piston cam chain tensioners
Zippers Bypass Valve
Fueling Billet oil pump

Intake:
51mm/1.800 Throttle Body
4.89 Injectors
Zippers Hi-Flow Air Filter Kit

Exhaust:
D&D 2:1 Boarzilla

Ignition:
ThunderMax

Final Drive:
O-Ring Chain

zippers built this.
my build, is it fast, yes and very rideable. 135 tq 130 hp
was it worth it id say no way, your more than welcome to come up and ride it