Topic: Thinking of changing cam... (Read 6217 times)

tommyo · « **on:** July 30, 2007, 11:25:09 AM »

Have a S&S 585g now and want a little more snap of the bottom. Have a huge lag of of idle. They tell me because there is such an over lap and high lift that not much for bottom end. I am concidering trying a 2 inot 1 system for exhaust also. I have CNC ported heads and HD is telling me to go with a 260 cam that is supposed to go with the heads. Any opinions out there? I'm at 102 hp 100tq would be willing to sacrafice a little hp for some more tq.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2007, 11:54:41 AM »

TommyO,

I doubt you will see bottom end on the 260 cam with a 95". Look at the overlap / duration on the cam. That cam should run great from 3200 - 6200.

Have they tried advancing the timing down low 1500 - 2250 rpm and leaning it up a bit there. Hesitation while it can be from the cam can also be from being to rich or the timing being to retarded. It only takes a couple of points 2/3 pts and you may see a big difference. Also when they did your dyno how much timing did they add at 100 percent throttle from 3000-6000 rpm?

I forget now if you have a race tuner or not, if you do there are easy ways to figure out what kPa your at by logging the data and being able to see if the hesitation is really in the cam or the tune.

Rooster · « **Reply #2 on:** August 03, 2007, 12:41:59 AM »

I would not recommend the se 251's either as I lost my low end after the motor warmed up and the outside temp rose over 85 or so. Seems like the head work is a good thing but the stock cams and the stock pistons are going back in see what happens next. Actually I think the biggest problem is the domed pistons, or maybe the combination. Still trying to figure it out.

mr_magoo · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2007, 08:56:49 AM »

Good to know Rooster thanks for the info. Hope they get you back on the road soon.

GMR-PERFORMANCE · « **Reply #4 on:** August 03, 2007, 09:33:35 AM »

Well one thing that you have going against you is that the large intake valve you ahve and the amount of duration. Not uncommon to have the air drop hugely in velcotiy in that head with a large duration cam. Compression wise you are within the ball park. I agree first see what timing you have going on vs AFR curve.

Second we port a fair amount of those heads and every one we weld them up and report and close the port dow to drive the velocity up. And every time you have a winner as a end result. That head works well if you are using a light bike with the heavier bikes that is fairly common to feel a bit of softness in the lower rpm range.

I know that is not a easy fix, look at tune first then move from there. Going to a 30 tooth front comp will help as well to get the gearing back to a 3.15, also what baffles are you using?? going to the smaller core baffle will help if you have the reinhert full system. I am not a huge fan of that pipe as the large difference in head pipe legnth has a effect on the harmonics of the tune along with the large port/ large valve combo you are going to have some issue on the tune back cylinder being the most difficult due to the 315* timing event on the rear along with the short pipe vs the front at 405* with a much longer head pipe.

Hoist! · « **Reply #5 on:** August 03, 2007, 09:40:56 AM »

Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on August 03, 2007, 09:33:35 AM

Well one thing that you have going against you is that the large intake valve you ahve and the amount of duration. Not uncommon to have the air drop hugely in velcotiy in that head with a large duration cam. Compression wise you are within the ball park. I agree first see what timing you have going on vs AFR curve.

Second we port a fair amount of those heads and every one we weld them up and report and close the port dow to drive the velocity up. And every time you have a winner as a end result. That head works well if you are using a light bike with the heavier bikes that is fairly common to feel a bit of softness in the lower rpm range.

I know that is not a easy fix, look at tune first then move from there. Going to a 30 tooth front comp will help as well to get the gearing back to a 3.15, also what baffles are you using?? going to the smaller core baffle will help if you have the reinhert full system. I am not a huge fan of that pipe as the large difference in head pipe legnth has a effect on the harmonics of the tune along with the large port/ large valve combo you are going to have some issue on the tune back cylinder being the most difficult due to the 315* timing event on the rear along with the short pipe vs the front at 405* with a much longer head pipe.

As far as I know, you cant change gearing in the 110" primaries, like in previous years?

Hoist!

GMR-PERFORMANCE · « **Reply #6 on:** August 03, 2007, 09:43:24 AM »

Well the primary is the new style of set up and there is a company that makes a 30 tooth non comp sprocket. I have used it on the 07 bikes but no CVO I was not aware they where different gearing from a standard 07. I will look that up. Maybe I am wrong

The kit comes with a new chain along with the 30 tooth front sprocket. Cost on the kit is 275.95 through us.

Hoist! · « **Reply #7 on:** August 03, 2007, 10:49:37 AM »

Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on August 03, 2007, 09:43:24 AM

Well the primary is the new style of set up and there is a company that makes a 30 tooth non comp sprocket. I have used it on the 07 bikes but no CVO I was not aware they where different gearing from a standard 07. I will look that up. Maybe I am wrong The kit comes with a new chain along with the 30 tooth front sprocket. Cost on the kit is 275.95 through us.

Steve, if you can confirm this, I'm in!

Hoist!

SCRM-R · « **Reply #8 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:01:22 AM »

Baker Transmissions just came out with two new transmission pulleys to change your gear ratio on 2007 FL's. One changes it a little more than the other. Seems like an efficient way to get the result, but it does require a new H-D drive belt...they tell you which one is needed. A buddy of mine has one ordered, so I should know how it works in a few weeks. Here's a link to the info. on Baker's website:
http://www.bakerdrivetrain.com/drivetrainupgrades/transmission-pulleys.htm#hdCruiseDrive

GMR-PERFORMANCE · « **Reply #9 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:33:31 AM »

The front crank sprocket is the best way to go as you do not have to pull the belt re call the speedo, and buying a new belt cost wise that is a much more exspensive route to travel, and easy of install is much easier on the front engine sprocket.. in our opinion.

SCRM-R · « **Reply #10 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:35:55 AM »

I am sure that you are right. He was quoted about $500.00 for parts and labor, but that is the way that he decided to go. At least I'll have an idea how good it works when completed.

Hoist! · « **Reply #11 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:38:13 AM »

Quote from: SCRM-R on August 03, 2007, 11:01:22 AM

Baker Transmissions just came out with two new transmission pulleys to change your gear ratio on 2007 FL's. One changes it a little more than the other. Seems like an efficient way to get the result, but it does require a new H-D drive belt...they tell you which one is needed. A buddy of mine has one ordered, so I should know how it works in a few weeks. Here's a link to the info. on Baker's website:
http://www.bakerdrivetrain.com/drivetrainupgrades/transmission-pulleys.htm#hdCruiseDrive

These guys are killing us w/this '07 development chit! I spoke to Baker about 2 months ago and they weren't developing anything for the '07 primary setups. Now they have stuff out for it. I'll try the comp sprocket change first and see how I like it. Did Baker make new clutch baskets too, so you can use their King Kong Clutch assembly, to go along with their gear ratio change? Thanks for the heads-up SCRM-R.

Hoist!

Hoist! · « **Reply #12 on:** August 03, 2007, 02:59:47 PM »

The stock comp sprocket is a 34 tooth. The Kit uses a 30 tooth with a new Primary Chain. I would have liked a 31 or 32 tooth, but I'll see how much it affects the RPM vs. speed and make sure I don't lose any ridability with it. I'll let ya'll know what I think. It should be here by the end of next week and so should my bike. So don't ask if I have it done yet or

You'll get everything when it's done!

Hoist!

tommyo · « **Reply #13 on:** August 03, 2007, 05:24:18 PM »

Wow did we get a little off topic...lol!

Hoist! · « **Reply #14 on:** August 03, 2007, 05:49:27 PM »

Quote from: tommyo on August 03, 2007, 05:24:18 PM

Wow did we get a little off topic...lol!

Sorry tommyo, but not too badly!

Steve kinda tied the 2 issues together in his Reply #4 here. Don't forget, it takes a properly matched combination of components for the bike to run the way you want it to.

Hoist!

Unbalanced · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2007, 11:22:32 PM »

Tommy,

Don't take that hijack stuff from Hoist. It just wasn't right. Did you decide which cam your going to try in that 95" bike yet?

SirMichael · « **Reply #16 on:** August 04, 2007, 12:13:02 AM »

Harry, tommy and I did talk to a couple of people about the problem and they did say to mess with the timing alittle (2-3 degrees) and that would help alot, but they also mentioned the 260-cams to!! So Tommy will still have to investigate for awhile

Everyone has a differant opinion about what to do,

SirMichael

Unbalanced · « **Reply #17 on:** August 04, 2007, 07:57:54 PM »

there is one other consideration that hasn't been mentioned. the heads could have no velocity until higher rpm ranges and If this is true changing the cam won't help. only thing that may help is a smaller throttle body to lower the volume and icrease the velocity.

again this is just another avenue to explore.

vagabond6542 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 04, 2007, 11:21:50 PM »

Read this thread.
Have a question;
Was there ever a vacuum reading done at the Throttle body?
That is a good place to start for a diagnosis of the "low end launch".
Ideally, 10 inches of mercury vacuum would give an idea if the mixture is nominal.
Anything else would mean rich or lean. Then look at if timing or mixture is the culprit.
Just a thought.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #19 on:** August 05, 2007, 12:30:33 AM »

SirMichael,

If this were my bike I would be leaning out the mixture to say something around 14.0 - 14.2 from 2-15/20 percent throttle from 1250-3000 rpm and raising the timing a few points to see if I could improve the launch of the bike. I would try this before moving on to other considerations as this is the least costly of those decisions.

SirMichael · « **Reply #20 on:** August 05, 2007, 01:23:42 AM »

We will have to talk to the tuner and mention all that to him, alot of that I surely don't know about, hopefully he should!!

Thanks,
SirMichael

tommyo · « **Reply #21 on:** August 05, 2007, 09:56:19 PM »

Who the hell is this SirMichael dude?

LOL!!

Unbalanced · « **Reply #22 on:** August 05, 2007, 10:02:06 PM »

TommyO,

Actually thought he was a friend of your's helping out with your bike to be honest. I was just putting the info's out there. I also discussed your issues with Wes Brown at Cycle Rama. He said you could give him a call, but what we were discussing was a quicker closing intake cam, but not overly quick due to your compression. He thought the 585 should be workable unless your flow on the heads has no velocity and if that is the case it might be just that the heads need to be relooked at.

I would try the timing suggestions I gave you above and give him a call, he is a good sounding board to talk to and he is aware of your issue since I was talking to him this weekend.

-harry

SirMichael · « **Reply #23 on:** August 05, 2007, 10:34:13 PM »

Yah, I just felt bad for this TommyO guy, so just thought I would pretend to be his friend for a minute so he would fell better!!

Actually, Tommy is the one who kind of got me into these "2-wheeled never ending money pits"

Everytime we talk about something, I endup spending more money on my Bike. I keep saying that I am done, but he keeps talking me into something else

He should definitly be a salesman

SirMichael

Hoist! · « **Reply #24 on:** August 06, 2007, 12:48:43 AM »

Quote from: SirMichael103 on August 05, 2007, 10:34:13 PM

Yah, I just felt bad for this TommyO guy, so just thought I would pretend to be his friend for a minute so he would fell better!!
Actually, Tommy is the one who kind of got me into these "2-wheeled never ending money pits" Everytime we talk about something, I endup spending more money on my Bike. I keep saying that I am done, but he keeps talking me into something else
He should definitly be a salesman

SirMichael

That's friggin' hilarious. tommyo's doing his thing, spendin' a few buck to spruce up his scoot, havin' a few issues, making progress, and askin' questions. But you don't really know him and pretend you do and then do what he does too, issues and all?

What the hell am I missing here?

You sounded like he was your bro! Am I on Candid Camera? I'm smilin' just in case!

Hoist!

tommyo · « **Reply #25 on:** August 06, 2007, 07:10:07 AM »

Hoist...

He is my boy! Just making lite of things. We ride together a lot. He has more time than I do to be on here so he is asking questions that we talk about during the week. I talk about things... and he just does them. Going to try some timing tweeking. Thanks Unbalanced.

Tommy O

Hoist! · « **Reply #26 on:** August 06, 2007, 08:19:51 AM »

Quote from: tommyo on August 06, 2007, 07:10:07 AM

Hoist...

He is my boy! Just making lite of things. We ride together a lot. He has more time than I do to be on here so he is asking questions that we talk about during the week. I talk about things... and he just does them. Going to try some timing tweeking. Thanks Unbalanced.

Tommy O

Well, you guys got me on this one!

Hoist!

SBB · « **Reply #27 on:** August 06, 2007, 08:23:04 AM »

Quote from: Hoist on August 06, 2007, 08:19:51 AM

Well, you guys got me on this one! Hoist!

That's an accomplishment when you get one on Hoist!
Congrats!

hogasm · « **Reply #28 on:** August 06, 2007, 10:01:18 AM »

Quote from: SCRM-R on August 03, 2007, 11:01:22 AM

Baker Transmissions just came out with two new transmission pulleys to change your gear ratio on 2007 FL's. One changes it a little more than the other. Seems like an efficient way to get the result, but it does require a new H-D drive belt...they tell you which one is needed. A buddy of mine has one ordered, so I should know how it works in a few weeks. Here's a link to the info. on Baker's website:
http://www.bakerdrivetrain.com/drivetrainupgrades/transmission-pulleys.htm#hdCruiseDrive

What belt is he going to run. Harley only makes a 139 tooth and nothing smaller till a 134. I went the route that your friend is going but the belt situation created too many problems that I went back to the origional setup.

SirMichael · « **Reply #29 on:** August 06, 2007, 08:55:04 PM »

Just havin fun Hoist

, Tommy is the one who got me in this Chat room. He was telling me that I can learn alot from you guys and you know what they say, you can never learn to much, right

After listening to all of you guys, I definitly have alot to learn, so you guys keep talking and Tommy will keep me spending money

Later

SirMichael

Hoist! · « **Reply #30 on:** August 06, 2007, 09:33:25 PM »

Quote from: SirMichael103 on August 06, 2007, 08:55:04 PM

Just havin fun Hoist , Tommy is the one who got me in this Chat room. He was telling me that I can learn alot from you guys and you know what they say, you can never learn to much, right
After listening to all of you guys, I definitly have alot to learn, so you guys keep talking and Tommy will keep me spending money

Later

SirMichael

Perfect Sir Mike! That's what we all do best here. Spend each others $$$!

Good to see you guys having fun and getting your scoots setup right in the process! Keep havin' fun here SM!

Hoist!

nidan · « **Reply #31 on:** August 07, 2007, 06:54:38 AM »

Sorry to stray back on topic ( heaven forbid!) but has anybody seen or heard of a build using the Andrews 32H ? I had the 31 in my 95 and loved it ( thanks to Steve at GMR!) , Andrews claims about a 20% power jump for this one over the 31.

In Open/ Close || Exh. Open/ Close || In /Exh. Duration || In Lift/tExh. Lift
10/46 || 52/08 || 236/ 240 || .570

gremlush · « **Reply #32 on:** August 09, 2007, 10:37:34 PM »

There is a Andrews 32 cam build on dewey's web site {95"} not bad. Thinking of doing it on my 110" and a 'little ' head work ,bump up the comp. too.

SCRM-R · « **Reply #33 on:** August 12, 2007, 01:18:22 PM »

Quote from: SCRM-R on August 03, 2007, 11:01:22 AM

Baker Transmissions just came out with two new transmission pulleys to change your gear ratio on 2007 FL's. One changes it a little more than the other. Seems like an efficient way to get the result, but it does require a new H-D drive belt...they tell you which one is needed. A buddy of mine has one ordered, so I should know how it works in a few weeks. Here's a link to the info. on Baker's website:
http://www.bakerdrivetrain.com/drivetrainupgrades/transmission-pulleys.htm#hdCruiseDrive

Well, my riding buddy got this mod. completed, has put a few hunderd miles on it, and he is well pleased with it. It puts the torque right in the range of where it needs to be. Doing about 3,000 rpm's at 80 mph. He says that it is one of the best mods. that he has done to the bike...not nearly as much downshifting required.

SirMichael · « **Reply #34 on:** August 13, 2007, 11:56:52 PM »

Just sell the darn thing and buy an 07 or 08

All you have to do is work one extra weekend and then you can just pay cash for the new one,

tommyo · « **Reply #35 on:** August 14, 2007, 12:11:49 AM »

Why would I sell it? It just got me through another 630 mile trip and it ran perfect! If I had your money ( I should become a retired welder) Then maybe I would have a few bikes. That is what you should do.

SirMichael · « **Reply #36 on:** August 14, 2007, 12:17:29 AM »

Quote from: tommyo on August 14, 2007, 12:11:49 AM

Why would I sell it? It just got me through another 630 mile trip and it ran perfect! If I had your money ( I should become a retired welder) Then maybe I would have a few bikes. That is what you should do.

Hey, I had that planned, I worked long and hard to retire early, being a welder for these last years (1996-2003) was some tough years, I earned my retirement

tommyo · « **Reply #37 on:** August 14, 2007, 12:20:05 AM »

You crack me up. I'm out talk at you tomorrow.

Hoist! · « **Reply #38 on:** August 14, 2007, 12:23:26 AM »

You guys both crack me up!!!

Hoist!

SirMichael · « **Reply #39 on:** August 14, 2007, 12:31:07 AM »

Whats up Hoist? Yah, I am tring to get him to spend some of his own money for a change, but he just can't seem to pry his wallet open

He has more money than anyone I have ever seen, but he just likes to sit and look at it all day

Hoist! · « **Reply #40 on:** August 14, 2007, 12:34:12 AM »

Quote from: SirMichael103 on August 14, 2007, 12:31:07 AM

Whats up Hoist? Yah, I am tring to get him to spend some of his own money for a change, but he just can't seem to pry his wallet open
He has more money than anyone I have ever seen, but he just likes to sit and look at it all day

Well, he did his motor! And if you do that good, you're happy. Sometimes all you need is a little more HP!

But you can never get enough!

Hoist!

tommyo · « **Reply #41 on:** August 16, 2007, 01:45:18 AM »

Other than a new chrome front end (winter project) and a 2 into 1 thats about it for me. SM103 just has to keep up with the Jone's. And he is the jones. Trying to outdo himself. LOL! Just kidding he want's a bagger now to have an old mans bike like me.

SirMichael · « **Reply #42 on:** August 16, 2007, 02:34:31 AM »

Quote from: tommyo on August 16, 2007, 01:45:18 AM

Other than a new chrome front end (winter project) and a 2 into 1 thats about it for me. SM103 just has to keep up with the Jone's. And he is the jones. Trying to outdo himself. LOL! Just kidding he want's a bagger now to have an old mans bike like me.

Don't forget about the painted inner-fairing!!

I don't want to keep up with the Jones, I want to Pass their azzzzz

Author Topic: Thinking of changing cam... (Read 6217 times)

vagabond6542

hogasm