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[Twolanerider]

You already know the answer to this my friend, but I will post this as a reminder to you and maybe as new info to others

DAVE MACKIE ENGINEERING

B B

I've ridden a 95 that had this package from Dave Mackie:  http://www.davemackie.com/twincam.asp

[SPIDERMAN]

And you've got a 10??? that has a lot of Mackie in it. Why mess with success ?


B B

[springer-]

You have to ask yourself "where do you start and where do you stop?"

I have never bought into the whole cam tensioner issue.  Gears are not the fix all end all they are made out to be.  First consider your run out, gear cams may not even be a choice without spending major money.  Next, even with gear cams lifters should be considered a regular maintenance item.  We recommend changing them every 30-40K, changing the tensioners along with them is not that much more work.  Expected yearly mileage should also be a consideration.  I know many people don't want to ever have to worry about them again but if you only expect to put on say 5K per year, that is 6 years between tensioner changes, not much to worry about really.  And at that rate it would be 20+ years before you recoup the cost of gear cams, will you have the bike that long?

With that said, if you are going to put 30K on per year gears might be a better choice but don't forget about the lifters.

I am neither for or against gear or chain drive cams.  I am however for making the right choice for your own circumstances.  IMO, if you fit into the category above, the money would be better spent someplace else.

Whatever cam you choose I would make certain to use full compliment inner cam bearings.

Cam choice should be chosen along with compression ratio, they go hand in hand.  In a 95" build with flat top pistons the combustion chamber size will play an important role in compression.  Deck height is also important.  Using a .030" MLS head gasket and setting a 0 deck height will set the quench to a desired amount.  Now a choice of cam will dictate a desired compression ratio and the heads can be milled to obtain that desired compression.

In a road glide SE-203 cams or Andrews 37's can work well.  The 31's with higher compression might be a good choice too.  With less compression SE-204's or 26's would be good too.  The 26's though seem to get complaints from people that really wanted more up top as they are a good low rpm cam.

Ignition timing will be a concern.  The stock timing will not be good with many of these examples.  Don't overlook this area when doing a build.  PCIII is easier with the MM.

IMO, a good low cost build.....
Set deck height
.030" MLS head gaskets
SE-203 cams
Measure and mill heads to obtain 9.5-9.7:1 compression
SERT or PCIII

Optional to take better advantage of the above....
Port heads
Good exhaust

[Twolanerider]

And you've got a 10??? that has a lot of Mackie in it. Why mess with success ?


B B

107.  And that's true.  It is a strong component in the decision process also.  Still doesn't mean I'm not interested in finding out cam-only options.  But unless I'm really sold on one it's nice to know that an effective and fuller alternative is easily at hand.

[SPIDERMAN]

SPringer
          Twolanerider is talking about a 2000 Screamin Eagle Road Glide which has a factory built 95" motor with true Magnetti-Marelli ignition and EFI

B B

[springer-]

SPringer
          Twolanerider is talking about a 2000 Screamin Eagle Road Glide which has a factory built 95" motor with true Magnetti-Marelli ignition and EFI

B B

I picked up on that about 2 minutes after I posted
edited to reflect that.

[SPIDERMAN]

I picked up on that about 2 minutes after I posted
edited to reflect that.

Are you willing to offer your professional opinion on Dave Mackie ?

I love the guy and have had many strong motors with his top ends, but just curious what a master tuner thinks

s'pecially you bein a fellow Mainuh

B B

[springer-]

Are you willing to offer your professional opinion on Dave Mackie ?

I love the guy and have had many strong motors with his top ends, but just curious what a master tuner thinks

s'pecially you bein a fellow Mainuh

B B

We are in the business of porting heads and doing top end as well so I feel any comment I make would not be very professional on my part.  Understand that I have nothing bad to say about him or anyone else for that matter.  I will say we don't feel we are in competition with him or anyone else since we have a different philosophy and approach to street builds.  I would be happy to expand on what we do or answer any questions in regards to our services.

[SPIDERMAN]

We are in the business of porting heads and doing top end as well so I feel any comment I make would not be very professional on my part.  Understand that I have nothing bad to say about him or anyone else for that matter.  I will say we don't feel we are in competition with him or anyone else since we have a different philosophy and approach to street builds.  I would be happy to expand on what we do or answer any questions in regards to our services.

Nothing in the above to lure me away from someone I've been doing business with for 20 years now is there ?

There's a thousands shops out there and thousand more claiming their way is different but as nobody wants to step up to the plate and go head to head with a guy like Mackie and say why their way is better . Professional courtesy or what ?

You made Howie happy on his tune, so I'll give you that. Got a lot of us thinking about combustion tuning as well.

B B

[Keats]

You made Howie happy on his tune, so I'll give you that. Got a lot of us thinking about combustion tuning as well.

B B

there is an understatement......making Howie happy I am sure was no small feat.....

sorry Howie (no disrespect), but I have read your posts

[SBB]

Ignition timing will be a concern.  The stock timing will not be good with many of these examples.  Don't overlook this area when doing a build.  PCIII is easier with the MM.

Glad I'm using the PCIII on my SERG!
My tuner said the same thing!


 

[SPIDERMAN]

Glad I'm using the PCIII on my SERG!
My tuner said the same thing!


 

And you've got a good exhaust. Sounds like some head porting and a trip to BC Gerolomy for your TB and you've got it made

B B

[springer-]

Nothing in the above to lure me away from someone I've been doing business with for 20 years now is there ?

There's a thousands shops out there and thousand more claiming their way is different but as nobody wants to step up to the plate and go head to head with a guy like Mackie and say why their way is better . Professional courtesy or what ?

You made Howie happy on his tune, so I'll give you that. Got a lot of us thinking about combustion tuning as well.

B B

We are not trying to lure anyone away from anyone, if you are happy with the results you are getting why change?

It is not that we are better, we just don't cater to the same people as many other shops do.  Like I mentioned it is a different philosophy.  We generally look for the person that wants more without braking the bank.  They are not interested in a high RPM build when they are going to be riding around at 3500 RPM's.  They are not looking to drag race, they are not up against the rev limiter all the time.  They just want more than the stock bike gives or allows.

We do conservative builds with reliability and longevity in mind at a reasonable cost.  We concentrate on 80% of the power for 20% of the work.  The last 20% of the power is 80% of the work and adds considerable cost.  For example, we do a full port job for $299.  That includes reshaping the intake and exhaust ports, a performance valve job, new seals, reassembled, cleaned and ready to bolt on.  Other shops also change valves, put in guides and seats etc.  This adds a significant amount to the entire job.  Depending on what you want out of the build this may be for you but if it isn't why pay all that extra for something you probably won't benefit from.  Not to mention the increased chance of a problem.  The stock guides, seats and valves are designed to go well over 100K miles without issue.  Now if I change the guide or the seat, I (you) run a bigger risk of sticking a valve or dropping a seat.  It does happen, and for the marginal improvement with significant cost, it isn't worth the risk in the average street build, IMO.

Beside the head work mentioned we are a propionate for cast pistons versus forged pistons.  In many kits forged pistons are supplied for a couple reasons.  In small production runs forged pistons are much less costly.  Forged pistons are also good for higher compression builds or boosted engine (turbo, nitrous, etc.).  Again since we focus on reliability and longevity forged pistons are (1) not required and (2) counter productive since they won't hold up as long as a cast piston will.  The reason the factory uses cast pistons is reliability and longevity, they use Kolbenschmidt (KS) pistons.  KS is also the manufacture for the Screamin Eagle cast pistons.  They manufacture Excellent pistons and are what we recommend.  We don't sell them, your local dealer does.  So our recommendation on a low cost, reliable build is not profit driven. 

Our primary focus is the head work.  All the other parts can be obtained through your local indy shop or dealer.  As mentioned above, the head work we do really isn't in competition with many other shops.  Just look around and you will find most want all the money and do all the work but how many actually use it to the extend it was intended?  Not many.  I guess it boils down to what you want and use, a $1500 build that gets you 80% of the way and yields excellent reliability and longevity or a $5000+ all out build that has good reliability and longevity and All the power you can get.  And I can qualify "good" because we all know that increased compression, high lift cams, increased valve spring pressure and more power all take their toll on engine life.  Not to mention most of these types of builds utilize forged pistons and they just don't last as long as a quality cast piston does.

Please don't confuse this with a sales pitch, Bean (my business partner) has about all the head work he can handle.  All the suggestions I made to the original post of this thread are not our products but suggestions based on what was asked.

Getting back to our philosophy, we are diven by helping people.  We believe "what comes around, goes around" and so far that has gotten us a long way.  We don't push a product on anyone and will be the first to tell you if we feel you would be better served going somewhere else.

[SPIDERMAN]

We are not trying to lure anyone away from anyone, if you are happy with the results you are getting why change?

It is not that we are better, we just don't cater to the same people as many other shops do.  Like I mentioned it is a different philosophy.  We generally look for the person that wants more without braking the bank.  They are not interested in a high RPM build when they are going to be riding around at 3500 RPM's.  They are not looking to drag race, they are not up against the rev limiter all the time.  They just want more than the stock bike gives or allows.

We do conservative builds with reliability and longevity in mind at a reasonable cost.  We concentrate on 80% of the power for 20% of the work.  The last 20% of the power is 80% of the work and adds considerable cost.  For example, we do a full port job for $299.  That includes reshaping the intake and exhaust ports, a performance valve job, new seals, reassembled, cleaned and ready to bolt on.  Other shops also change valves, put in guides and seats etc.  This adds a significant amount to the entire job.  Depending on what you want out of the build this may be for you but if it isn't why pay all that extra for something you probably won't benefit from.  Not to mention the increased chance of a problem.  The stock guides, seats and valves are designed to go well over 100K miles without issue.  Now if I change the guide or the seat, I (you) run a bigger risk of sticking a valve or dropping a seat.  It does happen, and for the marginal improvement with significant cost, it isn't worth the risk in the average street build, IMO.

Beside the head work mentioned we are a propionate for cast pistons versus forged pistons.  In many kits forged pistons are supplied for a couple reasons.  In small production runs forged pistons are much less costly.  Forged pistons are also good for higher compression builds or boosted engine (turbo, nitrous, etc.).  Again since we focus on reliability and longevity forged pistons are (1) not required and (2) counter productive since they won't hold up as long as a cast piston will.  The reason the factory uses cast pistons is reliability and longevity, they use Kolbenschmidt (KS) pistons.  KS is also the manufacture for the Screamin Eagle cast pistons.  They manufacture Excellent pistons and are what we recommend.  We don't sell them, your local dealer does.  So our recommendation on a low cost, reliable build is not profit driven. 

Our primary focus is the head work.  All the other parts can be obtained through your local indy shop or dealer.  As mentioned above, the head work we do really isn't in competition with many other shops.  Just look around and you will find most want all the money and do all the work but how many actually use it to the extend it was intended?  Not many.  I guess it boils down to what you want and use, a $1500 build that gets you 80% of the way and yields excellent reliability and longevity or a $5000+ all out build that has good reliability and longevity and All the power you can get.  And I can qualify "good" because we all know that increased compression, high lift cams, increased valve spring pressure and more power all take their toll on engine life.  Not to mention most of these types of builds utilize forged pistons and they just don't last as long as a quality cast piston does.

Please don't confuse this with a sales pitch, Bean (my business partner) has about all the head work he can handle.  All the suggestions I made to the original post of this thread are not our products but suggestions based on what was asked.

Getting back to our philosophy, we are diven by helping people.  We believe "what comes around, goes around" and so far that has gotten us a long way.  We don't push a product on anyone and will be the first to tell you if we feel you would be better served going somewhere else.

Thanks for taking the time to state your case. You're preaching what DM taught me 20 years ago, so I'll put on a robe and sing in your choir. I hear you on price. Mr. M has gotten more expensive as time has passed which is one of the reasons I've been pokin you today for a bit more - like what you posted here. Gotten to where a motor set-up the way I like it with DME top end is running close to $3k in parts alone.

B B

[kojak]

We are not trying to lure anyone away from anyone, if you are happy with the results you are getting why change?

It is not that we are better, we just don't cater to the same people as many other shops do.  Like I mentioned it is a different philosophy.  We generally look for the person that wants more without braking the bank.  They are not interested in a high RPM build when they are going to be riding around at 3500 RPM's.  They are not looking to drag race, they are not up against the rev limiter all the time.  They just want more than the stock bike gives or allows.

We do conservative builds with reliability and longevity in mind at a reasonable cost.  We concentrate on 80% of the power for 20% of the work.  The last 20% of the power is 80% of the work and adds considerable cost.  For example, we do a full port job for $299.  That includes reshaping the intake and exhaust ports, a performance valve job, new seals, reassembled, cleaned and ready to bolt on.  Other shops also change valves, put in guides and seats etc.  This adds a significant amount to the entire job.  Depending on what you want out of the build this may be for you but if it isn't why pay all that extra for something you probably won't benefit from.  Not to mention the increased chance of a problem.  The stock guides, seats and valves are designed to go well over 100K miles without issue.  Now if I change the guide or the seat, I (you) run a bigger risk of sticking a valve or dropping a seat.  It does happen, and for the marginal improvement with significant cost, it isn't worth the risk in the average street build, IMO.

Beside the head work mentioned we are a propionate for cast pistons versus forged pistons.  In many kits forged pistons are supplied for a couple reasons.  In small production runs forged pistons are much less costly.  Forged pistons are also good for higher compression builds or boosted engine (turbo, nitrous, etc.).  Again since we focus on reliability and longevity forged pistons are (1) not required and (2) counter productive since they won't hold up as long as a cast piston will.  The reason the factory uses cast pistons is reliability and longevity, they use Kolbenschmidt (KS) pistons.  KS is also the manufacture for the Screamin Eagle cast pistons.  They manufacture Excellent pistons and are what we recommend.  We don't sell them, your local dealer does.  So our recommendation on a low cost, reliable build is not profit driven. 

Our primary focus is the head work.  All the other parts can be obtained through your local indy shop or dealer.  As mentioned above, the head work we do really isn't in competition with many other shops.  Just look around and you will find most want all the money and do all the work but how many actually use it to the extend it was intended?  Not many.  I guess it boils down to what you want and use, a $1500 build that gets you 80% of the way and yields excellent reliability and longevity or a $5000+ all out build that has good reliability and longevity and All the power you can get.  And I can qualify "good" because we all know that increased compression, high lift cams, increased valve spring pressure and more power all take their toll on engine life.  Not to mention most of these types of builds utilize forged pistons and they just don't last as long as a quality cast piston does.

Please don't confuse this with a sales pitch, Bean (my business partner) has about all the head work he can handle.  All the suggestions I made to the original post of this thread are not our products but suggestions based on what was asked.

Getting back to our philosophy, we are diven by helping people.  We believe "what comes around, goes around" and so far that has gotten us a long way.  We don't push a product on anyone and will be the first to tell you if we feel you would be better served going somewhere else.

Good suggestions. For 95% of Harley riders, thats all they are looking for.