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[Talon]

I have a large document on oil, that explains the viscosity of multi-grade oil. The first number is not the viscosity, it indicates how easily a motor will turn over at low temperatures, the second number is the viscosity of the oil at 100 degrees. A 10w 30 can't be 10w when cold and 30w when hot, that is backwards from what oil does. So a 10w30 is 30 w oil.

Craig

[mjb765]

so 60 is going to be too heavy for colder temps--or is that difference not going to matter much?

[Talon]

I can send you the document if you want it. There's a lot of detail several pages on Viscosity. Like I said the first number is a cold cranking number, the lower the number, the better ability for the motor to crank at low temps. There specific temps used, and a special machine to determine these numbers, but a 20w60 the SAE grade for viscosity would be 60. Just PM me with your email.
Craig

[mjb765]

I can send you the document if you want it. There's a lot of detail several pages on Viscosity. Like I said the first number is a cold cranking number, the lower the number, the better ability for the motor to crank at low temps. There specific temps used, and a special machine to determine these numbers, but a 20w60 the SAE grade for viscosity would be 60. Just PM me with your email.
Craig

PM Sent....thanks

[Sklywag]

So I will add some interesting food for thought, I am drawing no conclusions, nor am I knocking any oils.  I have used Red Line for some 30 years now in both my day to day vehicles and in NASCAR Stock Cars Dirt 1/4 mile) & in off road sand drag racing.  I also run it exclusively in my MC's.  The Ultra that Trudy bought this year has been on AMSOIL all its life (12,000 miles)  I was debating about switching it to Red Line or leaving it on AMSOIL as a comparison.

I knew the original chemist at Red Line & had stayed in touch with him for years until he retired, I have another person I stay in touch with now for questions.

So I sent him the latest white paper published by AMSOIL but as expected he had seen it & asked him some questions.  I have included my questions & his responsed plus the documents he sent me as well as the AMSOIL white paper.  Next few posts for all the attachments.

[Sklywag]

Hi Dave

Hope this finds you well.

Well, I have gone quite a while with no questions but I have a new one.

We bought my wife a Harley, an used 09 ultra with the 96" motor, all stock.  It has been on Amsoil for all 13,000 miles. 

I am definitely putting Red Line in the Motor, Primary & Trans.

My question is, I was just reading a new article published by Amsoil on oil comparisons.  Of course they never compare themselves to Red Line.  Does Red Line have anything new that shows basically all the points that Amsoil tests for?

You probably have seen it but I have attached the Amsoil white paper.

Thanks

Bill

---------------------------------

Bill,

Yes all is well here...

I have seen their motorcycle oil test, thanks for forwarding it.

In your new Harley I would recommend the 20W50 Motorcycle oil, it has a VI of 152 and is completely sheer stable 0% loss, the HTHS viscosity is 6.1cP. The zinc level in our Motorcycle Oil is 2500 ppm, the phosphorus and sulphur level is more important for flat tappet anti-wear protection, 2100ppm phosphorus. As noted in the test, the ZDDP level doesn't reflect on the four ball wear test results. I don't have those results for our Motorcycle Oils as we generally don't perform that procedure, it's results can be misleading, good performance doesn't necessarily translate into a better performing oil. We performed a comparison between our motor oils and the Amsoil, I have attached that procedure, it shows how the additive they use for results degrades with use, our products improve with use. The volatility is 5%, the TBN is 8. The price per ounce is $0.247 We classify our Motorcycle Oils as MB due to it's moly content though they are not too slippery for wet clutch operation.

I don't have the D-5182, D-4742, D-892 or D-1748 results but have no doubt it would pass.

In your Harley's primary I would recommend the V-Twin Primary Case Oil also packaged as MTL and the V-Twin Transmission oil also packaged as ShockProof Heavy.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

----------------------

Hi Dave

Thanks very much for the quick reply.  Just a final question on the Red Line.  I run the 20-60 MC Oil rather that the 20-50 even though the MC’s are 2006, 2009 and the reason I do is because I ride in such hot weather.  Living here in Reno and riding in summer temps of 95+ a lot of the time.  Not unusual to see temps of 105.  Should I stick with the 20-60?

Thanks

Bill

---------------------------------

Bill,

The 20W60HD would be a good option for your Harleys though not necessary. The 20W60HD is primarily used in engines running very high oil temperatures where additional viscosity is desired or where internal clearances are looser and the rider wishes to reduce the noise. The 20W50 and all the oils will certainly handle temperatures, the 20W60 would operate a little warmer but would provide additional viscosity, additional oil pressure and noise attenuation for those extremes.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

[Sklywag]

Red Line Attachment

I couldn't attach the AMSOL White Paper it was too large, I will get the link to the ASMOIL site where the paper is and add it here

Link to White Paper
http://www.amsoil.com/products/streetbikes/WhitePaper.aspx

[Sklywag]

Red Line Attachment

[HOGMIKE]

So I will add some interesting food for thought, I am drawing no conclusions, nor am I knocking any oils.  I have used Red Line for some 30 years now in both my day to day vehicles and in NASCAR Stock Cars Dirt 1/4 mile) & in off road sand drag racing.  I also run it exclusively in my MC's.  The Ultra that Trudy bought this year has been on AMSOIL all its life (12,000 miles)  I was debating about switching it to Red Line or leaving it on AMSOIL as a comparison.

I knew the original chemist at Red Line & had stayed in touch with him for years until he retired, I have another person I stay in touch with now for questions.

So I sent him the latest white paper published by AMSOIL but as expected he had seen it & asked him some questions.  I have included my questions & his responsed plus the documents he sent me as well as the AMSOIL white paper.  Next few posts for all the attachments.

Ahhh..The never ending quest for the "perfect" oil.
Depending who you talk to, "theirs" is the best.
Not knocking ANY oil, but, take a look at what racers, Yamaha, Honda, H-D, S&S,etc, etc, use. Not all the same, right?
My S&S was shipped with Mobil 1
My M-B uses Mobil 1
My hot rods get Pennsoil
Harley ships with Syn3
I use Amsoil in most my bikes.
Mostly my personal preference, but, all seem to do their job just fine. I really don't believe you can go wrong with any of the better brand oils. Most mechanical problems are not the fault of the oil, it's over-heating, bad builds, over-stressing the motor, and other issues.

We have some members here that use nothing but good ol' Dino oil in their bikes.......they are ok with that and they run just fine!
JMHO, of course!

[Hoist!]

HeHe!!! Still use 20-50 A/C V-Twin dino oil in all mine!!! RL MTL and SPH in Primary and Trans.

Hoist!

[HD Street Performance]

You play a balancing act between viscosity, heat dissipation and aeration.
Thinner oils or oils with a higher viscosity rating but the one with a poor viscosity additive package (as shown on the product data sheet as "VI") are prone to aeration. If running cams with fast lift rates, the 110 has high valve spring pressure, and then the lifters bleed in operation and don't allow full lift. Not realizing full lift on the exhaust side causes heat retention. More heat the thinner and hotter the oil gets. It's a self fulfilling profacy.
Run a good motorcycle oil, syn preferred, due to the synthetics ability to not break down as fast at high temperatures. If you run a syn oil be sure it is 100% syn that is the base stock is class IV or class V base stock. Use the appropriate viscosity for the weather as specified in the owners manual. If on hot days the oil appears to be aerated change brands, the better of them do not do this. Air does not compress and air in lifters is your enemy for noise and loss of lift reasons.

[FLTRI]

You play a balancing act between viscosity, heat dissipation and aeration.
Thinner oils or oils with a higher viscosity rating but the one with a poor viscosity additive package (as shown on the product data sheet as "VI") are prone to aeration. If running cams with fast lift rates, the 110 has high valve spring pressure, and then the lifters bleed in operation and don't allow full lift. Not realizing full lift on the exhaust side causes heat retention. More heat the thinner and hotter the oil gets. It's a self fulfilling profacy.
Run a good motorcycle oil, syn preferred, due to the synthetics ability to not break down as fast at high temperatures. If you run a syn oil be sure it is 100% syn that is the base stock is class IV or class V base stock. Use the appropriate viscosity for the weather as specified in the owners manual. If on hot days the oil appears to be aerated change brands, the better of them do not do this. Air does not compress and air in lifters is your enemy for noise and loss of lift reasons.

Don,
Good points and good reasons for using RedLine oil products!
Bob
PS - I use RedLine 50wt racing oil in my 117 to reduce hot running valvetrain noises during summer months. IMO, a significant reduction in engine noise when cyl head temps are over 270 deg f. and oil over 230 deg. f.

[tennisman]

Not downing Red Line, but here is a Fleet Manager opinion on oils:

Amsoil is a very good product as are most pure ester based oils.  The Germans knew what they were doing.  Oil analysis is the best method to determine how an oil is working.  That allowed me to save the NFTA a lot of money and minimize the “true cost to own” of an engine.  There is no magic, just science.  That is why I can get 400,000 city miles on a bus before overhaul using dinosaur oil and a proper filter and go 6000 miles between servicing.  I really like “Bob is the Oil Guy” web site because you can find other people whom have done the homework for you.  I was the first fleet manager  to see a problem with Cummins manufacturing a piston that was not holding up.  I saw a sudden increase in Chromium from rings and aluminum from the ring lands eroding.  We fixed the problem before a failure happened and had no collateral damage.  The air cooled engines benefit the most from ester base oils due to the extreme temperature ranges that they can encounter.  Red Line oils have a minimal add pack and do not receive as good of a review compared to others.  Red Line is a great single use oil for say the 24 hours of Daytona, but it does poorly when dealing with condensation from heating and cooling an engine.

[HD Street Performance]

I have spent much time studying oils professionally (I was formally a fleet manager and have extensive training in tribology) and in the context of the motorcycle business. The comments referenced in the last post are not cited nor are they correct. All of the positive points used to promote Amsoil are also in fact features of Redline. The additive package is robust for both of them. Please do not listen to me look at the oil data sheets. The TBN TAN VI and viscosity. Also look at the quantity of moly, Zn, Ph. Then place judgement.
I am very leary of any Amsoil discussions because of their tiered marketing tactics so when somebody starts promoting Amsoil and dissing another product I ask for peer reviewed science based references. Then they get quiet. This is not about Amsoil VS Redline because they are both good products, but more about misuse and the spreading of information that is not founded.
I would use Amsoil if it were not for their marketing model. I do use their 100:1 syn two cycle mix because I can get it at the auto parts store and it burns so clean with good protection, I would go elsewhere if I could find a competitive product. I perform all my google searches with the operator "-amsoil" Works like a charm and then I can read what I want not spam.

[grc]

True "Racing Oil" isn't meant for street use, and in fact folks like Redline make that very clear in their literature.  Just thought I'd throw that out here for those who think "Racing Oil" is advantageous in their street machine.  Do yourself (and your engine) a favor and stick to oils formulated for street use, with the proper additives to protect engines that don't get the oil changed and the engine torn down every weekend. 


Jerry