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[WaSEEG]

I have to jump in here.  I posted my dyno sheet a few days ago in the SEEG forum and put a note in the twin cam forum.  I don't know what the difference between SAE and Standard is and quite frankly don't care.  All I know is that my bike runs stronger and pulls harder throughout the rpm range with Freedom Cams.  I don't drag race but appreciate the extra power when passing or riding in the mountains.  A lot of folks get caught up in numbers but I'm more interested in rideability.  

As far as the difference between Freedom pipes and Rineharts I've had both.  There is an actual physical difference between the two in that the Freedom pipes have a longer front header pipe which extends down lower and almost below the cam cover.  Remember some folks were  having problems early on with the billet brake pedal touching the pipe.  That fitment problem resulted from the longer header pipe.  There may be other differences but I haven't measured the length and width of each pipe segment so I don't know for sure.  I haven't pulled the baffles in my Freedom pipes but if I were to guess they are probably using a smaller baffle.  I actually went with Rineharts quiet baffle on my Road King and it's powerband was similar to Freedom's i. e. a steady increase in power as opposed the the sudden increase at about 4000 rpms as I experienced with stock Rineharts and the 2 1/4 " baffles.

I don't know why Brad or Mark won't release their cam and pipe specifications.  Evidently they view them as proprietary.  I'm sure that info would be helpful to those here who actually understand such concepts as lift and duration and how they relate to our engine.  As I understand it Freedom sought to come up with  bolt in cams for the 103 that increased power through out the rpm range w/o the need for additional engine work.  I think they suceeded.  Zippers cam looks  to be similar.  I expect it will also be suceesfull.  Everything I've heard about Zippers has been positive.  Unfortunately, an near as I can tell they are located somewhere back east and the liklihood of me traveling to their shop to get some work done on my bike was not very high.  Reno, on the other hand is a mere 600 miles from my home.  It was an easy choice for me.  

I posted my dyno sheet here if anyone is interested.  If anyone can explain , in non-technical terms, the difference between SAE and standard, I might be persuaded to try and assimilate that info.The lower numbers on the chart are with a Dyno run done last may with Freedom pipes, SE aircleaner and a PC.  The red line is after the Freedom cam install.  Incidently my wifes bike with a SE stage II build went from 71hp to 90 hp and from 77.7 foot lbs of torque to 97.7 foot lbs with just the addition of the pipes and pc.



Dan

[syclone]

Has anyone gotten an answer from Freedom .....will they ship one of their cvo 103 cams for customer installation...or do they still insist on installing the thing ??

I'm not now, nor Have I ever suggested that their cam doenst make the numbers they posted
(the Zippers curve is quicker and hangs in longer)....and not "bashing" them. It's just real suspisious to me that for what is the" heart" of the motor we can get no specs......and they insist on doing the install (if this is still the case) makes me more hesitant to believe its all their doing.
So their "market" for these is then limited to those close enough to take the bike to them....and not just any twin cam mind you....but just cvo motors...boy there's a big local market!  Seems like a lot of developement expense would be be involved, for little profit potential. Good business sense right there .
Now If they can be purchased...all one would have to do is take the cams to any respectible engine builder...they'll set it up and tell us the specs.

[grc]

Has anyone gotten an answer from Freedom .....will they ship one of their cvo 103 cams for customer installation...or do they still insist on installing the thing ??

See this thread, reply #3.

[WaSEEG]

Has anyone gotten an answer from Freedom .....will they ship one of their cvo 103 cams for customer installation...or do they still insist on installing the thing ??

I'm not now, nor Have I ever suggested that their cam doenst make the numbers they posted
(the Zippers curve is quicker and hangs in longer)....and not "bashing" them. It's just real suspisious to me that for what is the" heart" of the motor we can get no specs......and they insist on doing the install (if this is still the case) makes me more hesitant to believe its all their doing.
So their "market" for these is then limited to those close enough to take the bike to them....and not just any twin cam mind you....but just cvo motors...boy there's a big local market!

[jeffj]

I have the Freedom 103 Cam and also use their Freedom Exhaust and yeah my scooter was tuned at Freedom Cycles.
I to am not a tech type kind of guy but I will say that Yeah I can feel the difference in the seat of my scooter.
Brad, Mark, Rick and James all of Freedom Cycles in Reno, NV in my books are Top Notch People with Great Integrity.

Owning a HD is Kewl and one thing that I really like is every Rider has a different opinion on what looks good on his scoot
and what makes it go faster and I guess I what I am trying to say is: Freedom Cycles Rocks in my thinking.

Different Strokes for Different Folks


jeffj

[Fatboy]

 Quick question or two for all Freedom Package user's (with and without their cams).....

 Have you ever retested your bike on another Dyno after installation of their set up?

 If so how did the Dyno sheets compare and was the new reading SAE or STD?

 I'm curious to see if any difference's have occured or if they've remained spot on.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

 

 

[Street Stalker]

I find this a very interesting topic and feel I am taking the side of Fatboy.  Most good builders are not going to put a product in their customers bike based upon someone telling them it works.  I find that in todays market with every other after market company more or less giving you the specs on their cams, that it's ludicrous they would not give their specs...  I think it's natural for most of us to think something isn't right.  I always go with my gut and if someone thinks I'm going to set myself apart from a whole lot of $$$ because you say it works but won't let me see it, go find yourself another fish.  I e-mailed them about buying pistons, heads and cam kit and they told me I had to bring the bike to them.  I live in Maine, not gonna happen.  I asked if they would send it to my builder with 20 years exp. and got no response back.  Take that for what it's worth!

Zippers will be getting allot of business due to arrogance of the competition!

[jeffj]

Quick question or two for all Freedom Package user's (with and without their cams).....

 Have you ever retested your bike on another Dyno after installation of their set up?
[highlight]Nope no need to as the scooter hauls ass[/highlight]

 If so how did the Dyno sheets compare and was the new reading SAE or STD?
[highlight]If you look at hd-dudes earlier post you will see the last dyno was corrected to STD - thats my scooter[/highlight]

I'm curious to see if any difference's have occured or if they've remained spot on.

[Big Al]

General comment:

IMHO- We ought to have a thread where someone who knows how to measure a cam, can put the measurements from all of these 'secret' cams.[smiley=idea.gif]

If you can buy one, you can measure it, you can publish it- so why do these guys insist on saying its "secret"...

[Fatboy]

This thread reminds me of the old Cowboy movies we all watched as kids and leave's us with similiar unknowns to ponder:

                    "What's really in that Dr Smith's Cure-All Snake Oil" ?

                      "Can it really be the miracle cure as advertised" ?

 We know we have the same type of current users who march out from behind the curtain and swear by it but can't really tell us what it is that's in the bottle.......

 I agree... "to each his own" and if it works for you great! Maybe I should try it also and I'd find I'd like it to. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

 But before laying out serious cash I like to know exactly what it is I'm buying and why it is a better product and better value then similiar products on the market. Then once I'm properly informed I'm ready to go into the buying mode. I like to make the right decision to meet my needs the first time I lay the money down JMHO.

 And I am sorry if in anyway my past postings on this topic's have offended anyone.... [smiley=oops.gif]

[Twolanerider]

And I am sorry if in anyway my past postings on this topic's have offended anyone.... [smiley=oops.gif]

Even me   ?

[Fatboy]

C'mon Don,

 1. Your not a "thin skinned weenie".

 2. I don't believe you've ever drank the Koolaid.

 3. I've heard from vendor's at the V-Twin Expo that your as thorough as they come (nice way of saying you too can be a "pain in the ass").

 4. And most importantly (ya can't fool me) your a ZIPPER'S Man!

[Fired00d]

C'mon Don,

 1. Your not a "thin skinned weenie".

You know him (Don) well.
 
2. I don't believe you've ever drank the Koolaid.

You know him well.

 3. I've heard from vendor's at the V-Twin Expo that your as thorough as they come (nice way of saying you too can be a "pain in the ass").

They know of him well.
 
 4. And most importantly (ya can't fool me) your a ZIPPER'S Man!

[Twolanerider]

C'mon Don,

 1. Your not a "thin skinned weenie".

 2. I don't believe you've ever drank the Koolaid.

 3. I've heard from vendor's at the V-Twin Expo that your as thorough as they come (nice way of saying you too can be a "pain in the ass").

 4. And most importantly (ya can't fool me) your a ZIPPER'S Man!

[PCC]

I have been a good friend of the Yuill Bros. for over 30 years. I've had four Harley's and have worked with Brad on the motors in all of them. I hate to see guys who I know would love these guys if you met them, bash them because of some suspicion over their unwillingness to disclose cam specs.

It's an idyosyncrocy left over from the days when you beat competition like Bob Glidden and others by a hundreth of a second. Believe me, a lot of their close friends wish that Brad would give out some more info. We can;t get him to do it either...so we just live with it because the motors WORK. Maybe it doesn't make sense to you.....SOOOO WHAT!!!!

These guys have developed some parts that...THEY THINK...are proprietary. Whether you believe they work or not, and whether you buy or not, is up to you.....THEY DON"T CARE if YOU don't buy their stuff.

If you start off by having  AN ATTITUDE.....BASED ON INFERENCE and no ^%^$$^ FACTS. Then you should go somewhere else.

As regards their cams, I can tell you that the grinds are not the same as S&S or WOODS or Andrews. They are slightly different, just as the length of the downtubes on thier exhaust and the baffles are different from Rineharts.

Call Brad and talk to him before you start runnin your mouth. the guys who actually work with these guys are pretty unanimous about their level of service and commitment to making your scooter run great.


One final thing...Just because Brad doesn't necessarily make a cam or a pipe or a piston designed to get you the best dyno figure....that doesn't mean HE CAN'T. The dyno at Freedom is there for one purpose....TO COMPARE THE RESULTS ON FREEDOM BIKES TO OTHER FREEDOM BIKES. That's why STD or SAE doesn't matter to Brad.

Certain guys on this forum sound like a running advertisment for Zippers....maybe THAT'S what should seem SUPICIOUS when mean spirited posts appear.


Sorry for the Rant.