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[Twolanerider]

I hate to see guys...

[BLM777]

PCC....See no reason to be "sorry for the rant".  You're being friends with the folks at Freedom more than explains your position.

I really haven't seen anyone bashing the Freedom products or the people on this site who have elected to use them.  The controversy that has run throughout this thread seems to come from two issues.  First is the Freedom "knockoff" of the original Rinehart headers.  The second, and probably more destructive to any credibility that Freedom may have, outside of a very limited and at most regional marketshare acceptance is their pitching "secret" grinds and modifications.  This isn't the old days where uniformed bike enthusiasts followed the crowd to a "secret builder" for a "secret mod" to get ahead of the pack.  Thanks to the internet, sites such as this and professional development companies such as Jim's, Zippers, Andrews and S&S, just to name a few, who have invested millions of dollars into improving performance products, owners interested in a performance build have become educated.  

I think you cleared up a lot of the mystery on the "secret" nature at Freedom when you explained that "they don't care if you buy their stuff".  Obviously, that's correct as I can't think of any owner or legitimate builder who would step up to the checkbook chasing a phantom upgrade cam.  The drag racing analogy doesn't hold water.  These aren't competitive race cams and can be "spec'd" in a matter of minutes by anyone familiar with cam design.

I think the "attitude" that you refer to in the postings is the result of Freedom not presenting a straightforward representation of their product for comparison by  some very mechanically sophisticated members.  Basically, people who have been around bikes a long time also and are capable of making an informed decision based upon fact.

Being friends with Freedom, you may be able to  end the controversy and ask them to post the specs, expected result with various upgrade combinations and their independant dyno testing.  No room for controversy there.

Just my view of an equitable ending to a very long and never ending debate.

[HUBBARD]

One final thing...Just because Brad doesn't necessarily make a cam or a pipe or a piston designed to get you the best dyno figure....that doesn't mean HE CAN'T. The dyno at Freedom is there for one purpose....TO COMPARE THE RESULTS ON FREEDOM BIKES TO OTHER FREEDOM BIKES. That's why STD or SAE doesn't matter to Brad.

[highlight]Certain guys on this forum sound like a running advertisment for Zippers....maybe THAT'S what should seem SUPICIOUS when mean spirited posts appear.[/highlight]


Sorry for the Rant.

Yeah, 'er 'uh, PCC,
  HUB don't mind takin' credit for bein' one of those "Certain Guys", you referred to.  I, personally don't know the Yuill Boys, nor have I ever used any of their products.  Clearly, that is not to say any of their products are inferior to another.  I've heard alot of good, positive things about those folks.  What I do know to be a fact is, my Ol' "Led Sled" went by a SEEG, with one of Freedom's extensive upgrade packages, like it was sittin' up on Jack Stands!   Ain't no SUSPICION in that, my friend.  That's just the cold, hard truth.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD      

[CVOJOE]

Let's see if I get this right. Freedom says $700+ shipping for 103" cams that they won't share the lift or timing on, and they say will bring 105HP and 113 FT LBS.

I'm now getting 105HP & 108FT LBS with stock H-D cams, and if I 'upgrade' that works out to be 5 FT LBS for $700+labor. $140 + per FT LB, now there's a deal!
Of course the gear drive is a plus, but the return on investment just doesn't seem to be there IMHO.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[WaSEEG]

Let's see if I get this right. Freedom says $700+ shipping for 103" cams that they won't share the lift or timing on, and they say will bring 105HP and 113 FT LBS.

I'm now getting 105HP & 108FT LBS with stock H-D cams, and if I 'upgrade' that works out to be 5 FT LBS for $700+labor. $140 + per FT LB, now there's a deal!
Of course the gear drive is a plus, but the return on investment just doesn't seem to be there IMHO.

[grc]

Let's see if I get this right. Freedom says $700+ shipping for 103" cams that they won't share the lift or timing on, and they say will bring 105HP and 113 FT LBS.

I'm now getting 105HP & 108FT LBS with stock H-D cams, and if I 'upgrade' that works out to be [highlight]5 FT LBS for $700+labor. $140 + per FT LB, now there's a deal![/highlight]Of course the gear drive is a plus, but the return on investment just doesn't seem to be there IMHO.

[AUSSIE_FLSTFSE]

Joe,

With both the Freedom cam and the Zipper's cam, the objective wasn't a big increase in peak numbers.

[grc]

Jerry,
You say these cams are ideal for 'Heavy Baggers' so how do you think they will preform in in FatBoy?

[PCC]

Hey Hubb;

You sound like one of those boys that the Yuill Bros. used to race. No argument with your passin up a bike with the Freedom upgrade package. Apples & Oranges... I think that if Brad were still in the racin game, he might like to build a 120 with high lift cams and "run your ass" (I mean that in the good sense). It's natural for big dogs to bark, but at least on this forum, as to who would win that race....opinions vary! In my opinion, that's always been the fun of it, and without guys like you...there wouldn't be much fun!


As to others who responded...Rather than saying that "something suspicious must be goin on"...you all should have just left it at, "It's their choice, and I won't buy camshafts if they won't disclose specs". Make no mistake...there was some bashing...unfair...and I won't let that go!

[CVOJOE]

[highlight]A couple of thoughts:

[DCFIREMANN]

Hey Hubb;

As to others who responded...Rather than saying that "something suspicious must be goin on"...you all should have just left it at, "It's their choice, and I won't buy camshafts if they won't disclose specs". Make no mistake...there was some bashing...unfair...and I won't let that go!

I was going to let this die but since I was made out to be one of "THE GOLDEN CHILDREN of ZIPPERS I feel I just can't sit back and let it go! The problem I have is it's not that I'm bashing because I was not. Freedom is on the left coast and Zippers on the right coast. Zippers is an hour from me and I have been dealing with them for years(16 or better) so my choice is going to be Zippers. When Freedoms cams were first released they would not sell the great secret cams for the 103 to the public! POINT BLANK that being said I am not driving 2000 miles for a set of cams that I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT I AM GETTING. Not to mention the price! Wanting to keep a secret form the consumer makes me and others wonder. I have been turning a wrench on Harleys for quite a few years and this is not my first rodeo. If you feel that Freedom Cycles is the chit then that is your opinion. I have never delt with them and I am sure they are a decent shop to deal with.

I have never been to Freedom's shop but I have been to Zippers. I can bet you they are not even in the same league. The main thing about the 103 bolt in cams was not to increase HP but to improve the TQ curve and driveability. Zippers did that as did Freedom. Zippers went a step beyond that with the different packages for the CVO 103. I would like to think that Freedom has done the same. So to me the decision on who to use was easy. Zippers was very close to me, I have used them in the past, they have a great rep with dealers and consumers WORLD WIDE,and they have decent pricing. They also stand behind thier products 100% with no questions asked. If it is something they caused you are covered.

I hope this let you know where I stand and that I really am not bashing Freedom it's just my money is being spent at Zippers.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DCFIREMANN]

PCC I guess I could put in better wording! You deal with Freedom because it's who you trust and who you have dealt with in the past, and also it's where your heart is. Kind of like your Harley. I am just as comfortable with Zippers so that is where I deal.

It's all just a matter of opinion. I guess this is one of those threads that should have never should have been started.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[HUBBARD]

PCC I guess I could put in better wording! You deal with Freedom because it's who you trust and who you have dealt with in the past, and also it's where your heart is. Kind of like your Harley. I am just as comfortable with Zippers so that is where I deal.

It's all just a matter of opinion. [highlight]I guess this is one of those threads that should have never should have been started.[/highlight]

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Yeah, 'er 'uh, DAWG,
  Sure it should have, DAWG!  Information and communication are the two most important components of any business venture, or conversation, for that matter.  Hell, competition is what makes the World go 'round!  You are right in that people deal with who they know, like, and trust.    I'm gonna' ride home with who brung me.  I was already in Zipper's corner, and when they stepped up and replaced my 2 year old Intake, that just furthered my confidence in them.  That's definitely Service after the Sale.  Besides, ain't had the displeasure of another Bagger to come around Ol' Maudie, yet, and I've put Her to the Test against more names than Freedom's.  Zipper's Rules in Hub's House!   Later--HUBBARD  
  

[DCFIREMANN]

Yeah, 'er 'uh, DAWG,