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[coolhanddeuce]

Had my SG for little over a week now and have noticed a peculiarity with the saddlebag speakers. They seem to not be as loud as the front speakers. Is that by design? Even if I set the fader all the way to the rear, it sounds less then stellar and no where near as loud as the fronts. I did just see an older post about AVC that may or may not be applicable and will test that myself later today. Have my 1st service next week and will check with my dealer.

Just was wondering what others are experiencing with their 12 SG and their Boom Audio setups.
Thanks
Pete

Also just a headsup (I believe I am hijacking my own thread!), my dealer broke my iPod connector  and as I have seen some posts where the iPod is showing as not connected, may want to check the 2 side release buttons on the connector. The day I picked up my bike, the dealer was showing me all the gadgets and when we started up the bike, the display showed "iPod not connected". he opened up the saddlebag and started to disconnect the iPod and it basically fell right out of the connector. he was  a bit upset at himself! Luckily they had an iPod add-on kit to give me a replacement cable (real long!) until I got the new one. Just wanted to give a heads up that the connectors are not that solid.


Thanks
Pete

[coolhanddeuce]

Ok an update - went to my dealer today and spoke to owner who has saddlebag speakers on his SG. Said that yes, the speakers and sound are more powerful from the front (makes sense as there are 6 vs 2!)    His rears are more apparent when stopped and at feels surrounded at lower speeds but at higher speeds, they seem to be over powered by the fronts. 

Also tried the AVC (auto Volume control) trick. I turned AVC off and low and behold my rear speakers were noticeable louder. Will try it on the road tomorrow and get back with my results but think I fixed my "issue" and will keep AVC off.

Gotta love newbies 

[lilcoot]

Coolhand, just so you know, you're not crazy, I agree with your impressions.  The Boom Audio set-up is really a bunch of bottom-of-the barrel components.

I tried turning off the  AVC and adjusting the fade to the rear, so that I could hear the saddlebag speakers.  I could hear the back, but it was turned up so loud that it distorted.  My pipes are medium loud, so that's going to affect the ability to hear music, too. 

I figured out a compromise until I can upgrade the system:  ignore the saddlebag speakers.  They're junk.  Wear earplugs when you ride, and turn the stereo up.  The plugs eliminate most of the wind and road noise, and the music is much easier to hear.  Then save your pennies for an upgrade, if music is a big priority for you.

Personally, I found that I listen to music a lot less on my bike than I do in my car.  The sounds of the motor and exhaust are like music to my ears.

Hope this helps. 

Dan

And welcome to the site!

[Deep Blue Dives]

The 6 vs. 2 is the biggest issue.  Most of the sound is intended to come from the front.  2 Speakers in the back won't become prominent until they are higher quality, or are being driven at more watts per channel.  (Note to self - which I am sure TIF2 or Jerry will answer before I actually mosey over to the manuals, but I am sure that the output per channel is the same or not significantly greater on the rear amp of the bike...hell knowing MoCo it is less just so they can brag about the rear speakers on a bagger and charge us more)

I do agree the speakers in the saddlebags have something to be desired, but they are more for the benefit of the passenger vs. the rider IMO.  I won't butcher my SESG with a tourpac setup with speakers in it.  The saddlebag speakers are the way to go for the BSR if they like tunes on the road.

The saddlebag speakers do distort way earlier than the rest - whether the AVC is kicked on or not. I didn't buy the bike for the speakers in the saddlebags, but my BSR who use to wear her own IPOD, is happy that we are both sharing the same tunes and can communicate easier than with iPod buds stuck in her ears.

I really am surprised that so many are worried about the sound from behind.  At high speed, the sound from up front is fine for tunes at high speed.  If I was worried about optimal sound, I would ride in the cage where it is easier to tailor, or drop the cash right now to change that.

I know an upgrade is on the horizon for my system, but it's not because I can't hear the back speakers, but the overall quality of the system is Harley at it's best.....

[RedDevil]

For whatever reason, I don't think the saddlebag speakers are ran through the AVC circuitry, so when you have that on, the fronts become louder, like they should, but the rear don't.  I found that turning the AVC off and slightly tweeking the fader a little more towards the rear, works great.  The only problem is when I pull up to a stop sign with the volume still at the cruising level, I get a lot of people looking and giving me thumbs up and rockin' away to my tunes....LOL

[TIF2]

The 6 vs. 2 is the biggest issue.  Most of the sound is intended to come from the front.  2 Speakers in the back won't become prominent until they are higher quality, or are being driven at more watts per channel.  (Note to self - which I am sure TIF2 or Jerry will answer before I actually mosey over to the manuals, but I am sure that the output per channel is the same or not significantly greater on the rear amp of the bike...hell knowing MoCo it is less just so they can brag about the rear speakers on a bagger and charge us more)

I know an upgrade is on the horizon for my system, but it's not because I can't hear the back speakers, but the overall quality of the system is Harley at it's best.....

I'll finish your thought here ... which is to say not even close to good  

Your assumption is correct - all the speakers on the 12 are driven with the same "watts per channel". It's not really the "6 vs. 2" scenario that is the problem. It's actually the issue of analog waveforms and the physics of how they react in various mediums. You hear the front speakers more easily simply because it's easier for the waves to get to your ears. If your speakers put out Electro-magnetic (radio) waves - those waves would not care how fast you were going (or how far your ears are from the front to rear speakers)- the signal strength at your ears for all speakers would be the same.  

The real weakness in the stock '12 system is the lack of processing available for the amplifiers. The ability to adjust amplifier gain (per amplified channel) is critical to a balanced (sounding) system. Of course, there isn't any from H-D. Fade control simply moves output of the head unit from front to back - it does nothing to adjust the levels of front/back amplification. You'll need to upgrade if you want a little more tunes.

Just my .02 here ....

[Jerry/MD]

It's actually the issue of analog waveforms and the physics of how they react in various mediums. You hear the front speakers more easily simply because it's easier for the waves to get to your ears.  

Bingo! On a motorcycle or on any outdoor sound system it's all about the angle of the speaker with respect to your ears. A stereo system in a room benefits from walls to contain or reflect sound waves. Not so on a bike in the open air. The volume on the front speakers appears louder because they are basically pointed directly at the rider. When I look at the speakers in the saddlebags I see a projector which basically points straight up. Unfortunately speakers tend to be somewhat directional. If you step to the side you will notice the volume drops of significantly. If H-D altered the angle of the saddlebag speakers I suspect you would see a big difference. More power would help, but a direct speaker angle with respect to the ear of the rider would be the most efficient solution.

Jerry

[TIF2]

The volume on the front speakers appears louder because they are basically pointed directly at the rider.
Jerry

Hey Jerry -

That doesn't completley decribe the issue. You can fully balance your (bike) system front to rear while parked and it will change completely when at speed. There is a "pocket of air" between the driver and the fairing. The rear speakers (lids or pods) need to overcome (simplified) the attenuation due to additional resistance of more air present.

Build a set of speakers on poles at the rear of the bike, pointed directly at the driver's ears, and it will fall off in amplitude at 60+mph much like the stock system. The only way to compensate is to increase the signal level (output) from the rear speakers. That's my take anyway.

[Jerry/MD]

Hey Jerry -

That doesn't completley decribe the issue. You can fully balance your (bike) system front to rear while parked and it will change completely when at speed. There is a "pocket of air" between the driver and the fairing. The rear speakers (lids or pods) need to overcome (simplified) the attenuation due to additional resistance of more air present.

Build a set of speakers on poles at the rear of the bike, pointed directly at the driver's ears, and it will fall off in amplitude at 60+mph much like the stock system. The only way to compensate is to increase the signal level (output) from the rear speakers. That's my take anyway.

I agree with ya Rich. No doubt the problem gets worse at speed. More air, more acoustic resistance. But, a more direct path between the speaker and rider would definately help the situation. IMHO having speakers in the saddlebags pointing towards the sky is not the best approach.

Jerry

[TIF2]

I agree with ya Rich. No doubt the problem gets worse at speed. More air, more acoustic resistance. But, a more direct path between the speaker and rider would definately help the situation. IMHO having speakers in the saddlebags pointing towards the sky is not the best approach.

Jerry

Agreed as well ... direct path is always ideal.

My only point was that compensation for the lack of rear lid speaker volume (imho) will only be solved by a system upgrade. You can upgrade with more discreet processing control (different h/u), larger amps with discreet gain control, or both. You simply can't overcome the physical limitations of where speakers have to go on a bagger. You have to look to other methods to compensate for physical limitations.

Did J&M ever do forensics on your rear pod speaker that failed? I'm really interested in what they found as root cause of the failure. Let me know.

Ride safe Jerry ... hope you had a great time up north!

[Jerry/MD]

Agreed as well ... direct path is always ideal.

My only point was that compensation for the lack of rear lid speaker volume (imho) will only be solved by a system upgrade. You can upgrade with more discreet processing control (different h/u), larger amps with discreet gain control, or both. You simply can't overcome the physical limitations of where speakers have to go on a bagger. You have to look to other methods to compensate for physical limitations.

Did J&M ever do forensics on your rear pod speaker that failed? I'm really interested in what they found as root cause of the failure. Let me know.

Ride safe Jerry ... hope you had a great time up north!

The more I've thought about this it seems like this 6 speaker system needs separate volume controls on each zone: Front, lower and saddlebags. Each one of these 'zones' has a different speaker angle and acoustic impedance. Obviously you can't solve my observations easily. But, your approach via signal level (amplification) is the ONLY way at this point. I'm sure you could come up with a slick way to balance the system while the bike is sitting still. Separate volume controls to solve the impedance differences at speed is the tricky part.

I never got an explanation from J&M. I guess they aren't used to giving details...or figure most wouldn't understand. Being an engineer I would like to know. I had the AVC on 2 which you and I discussed at length. I don't know if that was a contributor or not. However, just to be sure I have AVC Off now. We shall see.

[RedDevil]

Agreed as well ... direct path is always ideal.

My only point was that compensation for the lack of rear lid speaker volume (imho) will only be solved by a system upgrade. You can upgrade with more discreet processing control (different h/u), larger amps with discreet gain control, or both. You simply can't overcome the physical limitations of where speakers have to go on a bagger. You have to look to other methods to compensate for physical limitations.

Did J&M ever do forensics on your rear pod speaker that failed? I'm really interested in what they found as root cause of the failure. Let me know.

Ride safe Jerry ... hope you had a great time up north!

Jerry,
The speakers in the bag lids are actually tilted.  The front of the speaker is lower than the rear.  This does point the rear speakers more towards the rider's ears, however, the amount of atenuation that occurs at speed due to the wind present, pretty much negates that.  Sitting still, I have my system prefectly balanced where I feel like I'm wrapped in a cocoon of music, but once moving, the front speakers take over due to what Rich correctly identified as that "dead-air" space and lack of atenuation of the sound.  The only way to get the rear speakers to perform properly at speed would be to upgrade to allow for wind compensation and apply more power to the speakers, which would require better speakers to handle the extra wattage.  

[Jerry/MD]

Jerry,
The speakers in the bag lids are actually tilted.  The front of the speaker is lower than the rear.  This does point the rear speakers more towards the rider's ears, however, the amount of atenuation that occurs at speed due to the wind present, pretty much negates that.  Sitting still, I have my system prefectly balanced where I feel like I'm wrapped in a cocoon of music, but once moving, the front speakers take over due to what Rich correctly identified as that "dead-air" space and lack of atenuation of the sound.  The only way to get the rear speakers to perform properly at speed would be to upgrade to allow for wind compensation and apply more power to the speakers, which would require better speakers to handle the extra wattage.  

I completely agree with both of ya as to the cause...and the cure. I merely wanted to point out that the less than optimal speaker angle was a contributor that's all. Not arguing or disagreeing with Rich's explanation in any way. If I had an input I would not only point them down...but in too.

What always make me scratch my head on problems like this is the lack of basic common sense in the design. Point the speakers towards the person who is trying to hear them. Make the path as short...or as direct as possible. It doesn't solve the problem completely...but it makes the cure a bit easier. I have a good bit of experience in underwater acoustics. If I designed a projector (aka speaker) that did not have a direct path with the intended target or receiver (aka ears) I wouldn't be very successful.

[Toddster]

I assumed the rear speaks were designed by hd to be for the benefit of the bsr which is why they are largely tilted up as bsr ears are behind the speaker. It never occurred to me that hd was trying to provide us surround sound.

I have an 08 ultra and the amp and speaks were a joke. Dealer talked me into hog tunes. Joke.
Arc amp amd twp front focals and it rocks. My 12 cvo sg is pretty darn good. Not like the focal and arc combo but pretty good. I just got it brand new twomweeks ago and havent tried fiddling with fade and dont if it can be done but the lower fairing speakers could be louder.

[jr1000yarder]

I assumed the rear speaks were designed by hd to be for the benefit of the bsr which is why they are largely tilted up as bsr ears are behind the speaker. It never occurred to me that hd was trying to provide us surround sound.

I have an 08 ultra and the amp and speaks were a joke. Dealer talked me into hog tunes. Joke.
Arc amp amd twp front focals and it rocks. My 12 cvo sg is pretty darn good. Not like the focal and arc combo but pretty good. I just got it brand new twomweeks ago and havent tried fiddling with fade and dont if it can be done but the lower fairing speakers could be louder.

With 4 focal 6x9's in the lids it really sounds good!!  Lots of bass too

And yes I can hear them just fine at 100 mph!!

Rich

[inferno1976]

Hey Rich, I think Id like to ride behind you when you have that bad ass system cranking!  I thought that you had 7x10's back there.