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Author Topic: Question for the experts about tensioner  (Read 9567 times)

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Kathy

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2014, 12:42:44 AM »

After having read these comments, the easiest response would be, why not let the people who have been manufacturing an automatic chain tensioner for over 25 years continue to do the work?! The M6 Chain Tensioner does exactly what it's advertised to do. Unlike the stock adjuster, we tighten AND loosen as the bike requires. The BT07 (for 2007 and newer bikes) spring compression measurement should be set to 3/8" (contrary to earlier comments). There will always be tension on the chain with an M6 installed. HOWEVER, the difference is the springs will move both up and down absorbing the pressure on to the springs, not the chain. Too tight of chain (as with the stock adjuster) will cause premature wear on your transmission main shaft and crankshaft bearings and seals, not to mention other things that will cause your bike to spend more time in the shop than on the road. Solve the problem install the Hayden M6 and Enjoy The Ride!
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05Train

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2014, 08:17:39 AM »

Respectfully Kathy, the M6 kept my chain as tight as a banjo string and the primary howled like it was going to come apart.
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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2014, 01:42:01 PM »

Respectfully Kathy, the M6 kept my chain as tight as a banjo string and the primary howled like it was going to come apart.

I can't speak for the late model version, but the old BT01 version worked fine for me.  But there is one big difference I noted when comparing the instructions for the two different versions.  The old manual tensioner bikes had a slack specification of 5/8" cold, 3/8" hot.  In other words, the chain becomes tighter as all the components heat up.  I'm quite sure the laws of physics weren't changed when Harley went to the new primary design in '07, so odds are pretty good that the chains still become tighter as the components heat up.  This is one very good reason why the stock ratcheting tensioner wasn't a very bright idea, and it may also have something to do with some of the complaints with the newer BT07 from Hayden.  That new version calls for setting the cold spring clearance at 3/8", not the 5/8" called for on the older model.  If the chain on the late models also becomes approximately 1/4" tighter when hot like the old ones, the tensioner may be operating with basically either very little or no ability to compress any further when hot.

Just a theory, and something I haven't tested since I don't have a late model with the POS primary design Harley pawned off on unsuspecting souls. You know, the brilliant idea that has allowed them to make a big pile of money selling new compensators since 2007 and still counting.

Jerry
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ultrarider123

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2014, 02:01:46 PM »

I love this forum.......

Tinkering is a hobby of mine.  I like to see what it does and if there is anything that can be changed/deleted/added to make it run/look/respond better.  It's more fun when you do something that works with the cost aspect as low as possible
Phantom, in the case of the current stock tensioner and whether you purchase the Hayden or not, Kathy described it best with
     "why not let the people who have been manufacturing an automatic chain tensioner for over 25 years continue to do the work?"
Pretty much says it all.....
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Mount'nman

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2014, 08:04:44 PM »

I looked at the old install directions and got the .5' spec... but 3/8ths is exactly what I measured with no shims needed.  Here is what the block looks like after 1k miles...
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Phantom309

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2014, 01:35:57 AM »

Forget my brainfart of an idea about grinding the teeth off my tensioner, it was just a thought .... and a bad one at that. I drained all three holes and filled her up with Redline 20W-50 in the engine, MTL for the primary and went with Spectro 75W-140 this time for the trans .... what a difference! I chose to skip the Heavy Shockproof this time after seeing some pics somewhere of a trans all gummed up from it. Could have been from too much moisture/short trips ... I don't know, but didn't want to take a chance.

Hard to believe how much less racket my engine makes now and it shifts like butter compared to having the Syn 3 in every hole. Finding neutral is a snap now, truly night/day difference. My bike was really clunky shifting before and neutral was tricky sometimes, not anymore.

Part of the problem was someone at the factory must have fallen asleep at the switch when they filled my primary, it was way over-filled. When I pulled the derby cover the oil level was over the tensioner shoe and over the rivets on the lower run of the chain. Obviously a lot higher up the clutch than it was supposed to be as well. 38 oz. put me just starting to cover the bottem of the clutch and I think the level was almost about the top of the tensioner.

For piece of mind you know I had to stick a screwdriver in there to check my chain tension and all was good. I could push it up about 1/2" or so in the middle. I guess all the reading about some people with banjo tight chains made me nervous, but now I feel better after seeing for myself. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I see nothing wrong with my stock tensioner. I don't beat the crap outta my bike so I don't see any reason for it to over-ratchet. I know some of you love your Hayden, but I honestly don't see one making mine much better than it is now. Maybe later down the road I may try one, but I'm happy for now. Thanks for the help and I was a little pissy myself the day I first posted this ... the internet tends to do that sometimes, lol.   
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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2014, 03:36:20 AM »


Forget my brainfart



 :2vrolijk_21:   all good    :2vrolijk_21:
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hogdooz

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2014, 02:55:51 PM »

I've been installing Hayden M-6's since 1988 with no problems--very good product. However, the new BT-07 doesn't seem to have the same performance. They seem to wear much too fast and be noisier; I just replaced two blocks with 11K on them that the blocks are worn almost all the way through. I'll be sending them to Kathy so maybe they can work on the design for more longevity and quieter operation. On the late ones I've installed, I get the 3/8" + with no spacers but with the new springs, the chain seems very tight. I still think the Hayden unit is much better than stock, I had to have the transmission bearing and the compensator replaced under warranty before I installed the Hayden in mine.
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dicko

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2014, 12:12:41 AM »


...Part of the problem was someone at the factory must have fallen asleep at the switch when they filled my primary, it was way over-filled...
I wonder how you knew it was overfilled since, other than an initial fill, the MoCo doesn't give ant specs on checking the primary case oil level?
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Phantom309

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2014, 05:06:30 AM »

Straight out of a HD service manual. Just for another reference point my tensioner shoe was drowning in oil and was also OVER the center of the rivets in the chain at the same spot before I drained it. When filled to the proper level the top of the shoe is above the oil level and no longer even touching the chain there. My level was pretty far up the spring instead of just barely covering the bottom of it. BTW this pic is from one of my older manuals ... these new bikes with the hydraulic clutch have no adjuster, just to clear up any confusion. I never bought a manual for my new one yet.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 05:17:41 AM by Phantom309 »
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dicko

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2014, 01:32:07 AM »

OK, that's cool for your bike.  The same advice does not exist for the current TC bikes.
     -Dick-
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Phantom309

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2014, 08:38:41 AM »

OK, that's cool for your bike.  The same advice does not exist for the current TC bikes.
     -Dick-
Are you saying the new manual for the '14s doesn't have any specs on the primary oil level? I did measure 38 ounces like my owner's manual said and it did bring it up to the bottom of the spring. If there are no specs then maybe they are assuming most of us know to fill it to where it just touches the spring or it's a screw up on their part? 
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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2014, 08:59:15 AM »

Are you saying the new manual for the '14s doesn't have any specs on the primary oil level? I did measure 38 ounces like my owner's manual said and it did bring it up to the bottom of the spring. If there are no specs then maybe they are assuming most of us know to fill it to where it just touches the spring or it's a screw up on their part?

The service manual gives specific instruction for a "dry fill" and a "wet fill" of the primary.  I suspect they feel this is sufficient information.  For what it's worth, a "dry fill" of 45 oz brings the lubricant level to what is shown in the diagram, and a "wet fill" of 38 oz also brings the lubricant level to what is shown in the diagram.

That said, I "dry fill" my primary with 34 oz, which is what is required for me to not have any clutch drag when starting the bike cold, using Formula+.
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Phantom309

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2014, 09:18:17 AM »

The service manual gives specific instruction for a "dry fill" and a "wet fill" of the primary.  I suspect they feel this is sufficient information.  For what it's worth, a "dry fill" of 45 oz brings the lubricant level to what is shown in the diagram, and a "wet fill" of 38 oz also brings the lubricant level to what is shown in the diagram.

That said, I "dry fill" my primary with 34 oz, which is what is required for me to not have any clutch drag when starting the bike cold, using Formula+.

That's what my OM says too, same as the SM then. From what I heard it would never take 45 oz. unless you remove the whole outer primary cover for the dry fill. I guess they say approximately 38 oz. for wet fill when you just pull the drain plug. I guess 7 oz. stays in there if you don't pull the whole primary off then. Thanks
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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2014, 09:27:27 AM »


The smart way to fill the primary on a late model, since many people don't get all the fluid out when draining, would be to pour in one quart (32 ounces) with the bike sitting upright and level, not leaning on the jiffy stand, and then visually check the level relative to the bottom of the clutch like it has always been done since I've been messing with Harley's.  Add only enough to touch the bottom of the clutch.  A slightly low level is preferable to a high level, because as many have already noted a high level will cause your clutch to drag.  If Harley no longer puts that in their manuals, then once again the folks at Harley screwed up.  Not surprising in my opinion.

The ONLY time 45 ounces should be necessary is when the primary is first filled at the factory, or after the primary has been completely disassembled and ALL fluid has been removed.  Part of the problem IMHO is that some folks just look at that 38/45 spec and go ahead and dump in 45 ounces.  That includes some dealership rocket scientists based on reports I've seen about overfilled primaries after paying a dealership to perform the service.

Jerry
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