Topic: Six speed, HD or Baker? (Read 31647 times)

sanjoseduke · « **on:** March 09, 2006, 06:31:20 PM »

I have been struggling with which 6 speed to install on my soon to arrive 2006 FLHTCUSE.
A very popular performance house often mentioned on this board had the following to say about the Baker 6 speed.

"I feel you are making a mistake if you don

HUBBARD · « **Reply #1 on:** March 09, 2006, 07:17:39 PM »

Quote

I have been struggling with which 6 speed to install on my soon to arrive 2006 FLHTCUSE.
A very popular performance house often mentioned on this board had the following to say about the Baker 6 speed.

"I feel you are making a mistake if you don

don · « **Reply #2 on:** March 09, 2006, 07:44:05 PM »

For a complete transmission installed, your looking at more than a $1000.00 diffrence in a DDO6 and a SE six. The Baker is probley better, but the Screaming Eagle looks more at home to me behind the silve motor.

mr_magoo · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2006, 09:33:17 PM »

Had a HD unit install when the bike arrived and now it is covered for 7yrs just like the bike. And I really like it.

jfritz_drfritz · « **Reply #4 on:** March 09, 2006, 09:38:27 PM »

I have the SE 6 speed, for the most part it works ok, I do find it seems to feel a bit "funny" going into 6th sometimes. I am having a J120 installed into my bike (almost done) but in conversation with TMan (the builder) he indicated that his testing indicated that the baker DD6 had a greater horsepower loss than the harley transmission, still the harley 6 speed is costing you 5 HP and maybe 7 torque. FWIW with the stock engine (103) on my electraglide 6th gear is really only useful above 70 -75 mph and not much good if there is any significant headwind (unless you want to really dog it). There is also some increased gear whine which I compensate for by turning up the radio!

[smiley=banana.gif]

grc · « **Reply #5 on:** March 09, 2006, 10:17:19 PM »

Quote

I have the SE 6 speed, for the most part it works ok, I do find it seems to feel a bit "funny" going into 6th sometimes. I am having a J120 installed into my bike (almost done) but [highlight]in conversation with TMan (the builder) he indicated that his testing indicated that the baker DD6 had a greater horsepower loss than the harley transmission, still the harley 6 speed is costing you 5 HP and maybe 7 torque.[/highlight] FWIW with the stock engine (103) on my electraglide 6th gear is really only useful above 70 -75 mph and not much good if there is any significant headwind (unless you want to really dog it). There is also some increased gear whine which I compensate for by turning up the radio! [smiley=banana.gif]

jfritz_drfritz,

Welcome to the site!

HUBBARD · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2006, 10:21:30 PM »

Quote

I have the SE 6 speed, for the most part it works ok, I do find it seems to feel a bit "funny" going into 6th sometimes. I am having a J120 installed into my bike (almost done) but in conversation with TMan (the builder) he indicated that his testing indicated that the baker DD6 had a greater horsepower loss than the harley transmission, [highlight]still the harley 6 speed is costing you 5 HP and maybe 7 torque[/highlight]. FWIW with the stock engine (103) on my electraglide 6th gear is really only useful above 70 -75 mph and not much good if there is any significant headwind (unless you want to really dog it). There is also some increased gear whine which I compensate for by turning up the radio! [smiley=banana.gif]

Yeah, 'er 'uh, jfritz_drfritz,
Please 'splain the highlighted part of your post, concerning the HP and Torque loss, with a 6-Speed, as opposed to a 5-Speed. Later--HUBBARD

mr_magoo · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2006, 09:18:31 AM »

jfritz_drfritz welcome to the site. Haven't had my 6 speed in long but the motor has more than enough power to pull a fairly good hill in 6th and acctually pick up speed. Mine makes no more noise in 6th than any of the other gears.

GC_Super · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2006, 10:55:17 AM »

I started a post over on HTT a couple months ago concerning the power loss associated w/6spd. Had about 75 hits, and all the "experts" over there were in agreement that there was a loss of power, just how much was the real argument. About 3% was the figure that most agreed to, however, the only way to prove it would be to dyno the same bike under the same conditions w/no other changes. Kinda like gear drive cams. One of the respected shop owners over there has dynos of gear vs chain with no change in power. due to the addition of gears.

SEULTRA · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2006, 11:36:53 AM »

Like anything you put on your scoot... if YOU like it, that's what matters. Enjoy that new 6 speed!

Eqcons · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2006, 01:22:39 PM »

I've been thinking about just the same choice. It occurs to me that the ratios of the stock MoFoMoC 5-speed box are close enough, and there's not a lot to be gained (except more exercise for your left foot!) by having 6 gears covering the same spread of ratios; it's not a sports bike after all. No, for me the whole point of having the 6-speed would be lower revs at cruising speed, so my choice would be the HD with overdrive 6th over the Baker with 1:1 6th.

Jim

Screamin_Beagle · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2006, 02:15:11 PM »

Stay with the HD setup. Baker has a good rep but I'd trust Harley.
JMHO

grc · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2006, 09:36:32 PM »

Quote

I've been thinking about just the same choice.

Canuck · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2006, 10:25:58 PM »

Hey Sanjoseduke,
Didn't you change your order to the Autumn/Haze? You should change your personal icon which is still showing the "bad paint" model

I am going to have the HD six speed put in mine. I was going to wait for a proper break-in but I think this is a mod that is better done when you pick up the bike. You will have to let me know when your bike arrives. Mine is expected 3/15. That's next Wednesday [smiley=banana.gif]

Looking forward to Cripple Creek.

jfritz_drfritz · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2006, 10:52:28 PM »

In reply to the question about how Tman came up with the mentioned power loss - the issue came up when we were discussing expected results when i take it for dyno tuning. As you can probably imagine, in his business he has to take great pains that his customers have a realistic expectation of what their bike is going to produce for Hp and Torque numbers. Primary among those factors are the state of tune, intake, exhaust, and gearing. So anyways, he asked me what transmission I was using and I told him the SE 6 speed. He said that was Ok, but I must expect about a 5 hp loss and probably 7 loss of torque so I should look with my combo for about 135/135. He said that he has had a few customers with disappointing numbers who kept after him til finally he had to prove it was the transmission which resulted in the lower than expected numbers, so they actually swapped transmissions and retested to prove there was not a problem with engine output. He said his experience was the baker transmission (DD6) was worse for power loss than the harley transmission (his words not mine!). He didn't give me any numbers to corroborate that or offer any explanation as to why that should be. This subject has been thrashed about quite thoroughly on the HTT site by folks more knowledgeable than me with no definite conclusions. Sorry I can't provide any more detailed info than that. Personally I would be happy with either transmission, the deciding factor for me was that I could have it serviced at my dealer.

Eqcons · « **Reply #15 on:** March 11, 2006, 06:54:59 AM »

Quote

Jim,

While the Baker has a 1:1 6th gear ratio (which is the most efficient ratio in terms of power loss), you still have the overdrive affect from the change in the primary ratio (25 tooth engine sprocket H-D 5 and H-D 6 speed, 28 tooth sprocket with the DD6).

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #16 on:** March 11, 2006, 07:25:43 AM »

IMHO if you are going to install a 6 speed in a touring bike WHY WOULD YOU WANT A GO FAST DIRECT DRIVE?

?? You are installing a 6 speed for the overdrive option while on the highway. This will lower your RPM's up your fuel milage and put less wear and tear on your drive train! If you want a go fast bike by a dyna!!!!!!

Be safe

THE DAWG

grc · « **Reply #17 on:** March 11, 2006, 07:40:07 AM »

Jim,

Both the original Baker and the DD6 require an electronic recalibrator for the speedometer/odometer. That is also true for the Rev-Tech and the other copycats out there. If someone is comparing total costs, that's another $100-150.

Jerry

grc · « **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2006, 07:48:36 AM »

Quote

IMHO if you are going to install a 6 speed in a touring bike WHY WOULD YOU WANT A GO FAST DIRECT DRIVE??? You are installing a 6 speed for the overdrive option while on the highway. This will lower your RPM's up your fuel milage and put less wear and tear on your drive train! If you want a go fast bike by a dyna!!!!!!

Be safe

THE DAWG

Dawg,

You make a good point. With the H-D trans, normal riding will usually be in 5th (1:1) gear, with overdrive available for those long stretches of 70 mph + down the interstate. With the DD6, normal driving will be in 5th gear, and the more efficient 1:1 ratio 6th will only be used on those interstate runs. So it comes down to each individual and how they ride.

Jerry

don · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2006, 08:50:02 AM »

To me a nother negative on the Baker is starting the 103 engin. I'm thanking that there is going to be a different RPM on the crankshaft from the starter.

jfritz_drfritz · « **Reply #20 on:** March 11, 2006, 09:00:35 AM »

I would think that since the DD6 has a larger engine sprocker (28 vs 25) and the starter is attached to the transmission that it would make it easier for the starter to turn the engine over - potentially a benefit for larger builds! [smiley=jalapeno.gif]

don · « **Reply #21 on:** March 12, 2006, 01:18:36 AM »

Yea easyer to turn, but less RPM from the crank. Maybe better, maybe worse, how about some input you dd6 owners.

tmo465 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 12, 2006, 07:42:35 AM »

I'll kick in with a comment on this. I considered the baker, however with the extra cost of the baker, and the fact a buddy of mine had to send his back due to a major problem with it (which baker covered totally) I went with the Harley 6 speed. I do lots of road miles and figured if I had a problem, at least it's Dealer supported.

I went with the 3:37 gearing set up along with the 6 speed box which I swapped out.

After putting 1400 miles on this set up in Daytona all i can say is, it made a great choice for me personally. Extra zip from 1st thru 5th, crusing in 6th is a breeze and I did not notice any problem at speeds lower than 70 in 6th. 70 and above, just add right wrist and it moves right along.

Now if you swap out the total gearbox, it is an added expense for sure, but I figured if I want to re-coup some of the cost, I can always sell the complete 5 speed in the future. The 5 speed gear sets do not seem to be a big money maker on e-bay.

Now all I need to do is stop trying to find that 7th gear,,lolololol

Tom

HDMAN · « **Reply #23 on:** March 12, 2006, 11:27:07 AM »

I have read this post for some time, and I joined today because I feel it's time to add my 2 cents.
I installed a Baker six speed in my roadking about one year ago. I've had nothing but trouble with it. First it shifted so hard that you needed the heel shifter to change gears, then it started to slip out of fifth gear under load, thats an experience! All of these issues were delt with by Baker but it was frustrating.
However the thing I find the most disturbing is that when you replace the motor sprocket to regear it it causes the chain adjuster to be really high which loops the primary chain. You may say well that's no big deal but when you hit the starter or you decelerate hard that puts a lot of stress on the bottom of the chain pulling down hard on the adjuster.
At any rate I have several friends with Harley six speeds and believe me that' :)s the way to go. Just speaking from experience, the best teacher.

sanjoseduke · « **Reply #24 on:** March 12, 2006, 11:39:55 AM »

OK Guys I knew I could count on you for some great input. Thanks a lot for all your comments & experiences. Looks like you can't go wrong with the HD 6 speed. It is also a good feeling to know that if I have any trouble with the 6 speed on the road I can get it serviced at any HD shop and hopefully under HD warranty.

SanJoseDuke

don · « **Reply #25 on:** March 13, 2006, 08:57:33 AM »

Thanks HDMAN for your input. Sorry to here about the bad experence with the dd6. Kinda makes me fell I made the right choise on the complete SE trany.

HDMAN · « **Reply #26 on:** March 13, 2006, 05:35:12 PM »

The concept is of the direct drive in sixth gear is good however the only way I see that you can do this properly is the way that Harley dealt with it on the Dynas. By changing both the engine and clutch basket the chain runs almost straight on the bottom as well. I will bet the ranch you will see this on the 07 dressers as well. The only problem is that we can not retrofit it to ours.
But at any rate the HD 6 is a great setup, Baker will try to tell you that the big drawback is that you can not change it back, due to the necessary case modification. I don't understand why ony one that has a six speed would ever consider going back to the five speed gearing, so to me it's not an issue. It would be great if some one designed a five that spaced the gears like a six, same low and same high, and nice spacing between, and maybe it's in the works.

Hogfn · « **Reply #27 on:** March 13, 2006, 06:18:37 PM »

,[highlight] I went with the 3:37 gearing set up along with the 6 speed box which I swapped out.[/highlight]

TMO465,
Tom, Thanks for the words. How many 'bike bucks' did it cost to buy the 6-speed and gears and have HD install.....I need to start saving up..... [smiley=nervous.gif]

sanjoseduke · « **Reply #28 on:** March 13, 2006, 08:00:27 PM »

Quote

,[highlight] I went with the 3:37 gearing set up along with the 6 speed box which I swapped out.[/highlight]

TMO465,
Tom, Thanks for the words.

Canuck · « **Reply #29 on:** March 13, 2006, 08:40:26 PM »

Went to my Dealer today to check on the delivery of my bike expected Wednesday. He said he will call me when it has arrived but wasn't sure if it would be Wednesday. I asked him if I could come by before they remove it from the crate so I could get some good "birth of a CVO" pictures for my friends on-line. He said NO. He said it would be too busy for me to be hanging around the shop. I can't believe it

What a jerk.

The reason I post this here is because I asked him whathe thought of me putting a six speed transmission on the bike and he said it was a bad idea! He said it isn't useful unless you are going to be travelling faster than 100 miles/hour. He said the drop in rpm at lower speeds is bad for the bike. This from the same guy who said you can't put True Duals on an fuel injected bike only on a carburated bike. This guy is making me crazy. Do you see why I am willing to drive to Reno to have a real mechanic install my pipes!

Looks like I will have to find another dealer to install my HD six speed transmission.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #30 on:** March 13, 2006, 08:49:27 PM »

Quote

Went to my Dealer today to check on the delivery of my bike expected Wednesday.

Canuck · « **Reply #31 on:** March 13, 2006, 08:57:34 PM »

Your absolutely right twolanerider! My wife tells me I am too nice [smiley=nixweiss.gif] I only wish I hadn't put a $5,000 deposit on the bike which I am certain he would keep.

WaSEEG · « **Reply #32 on:** March 13, 2006, 09:00:10 PM »

Canuck

Let me see if I got this right.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #33 on:** March 13, 2006, 09:00:28 PM »

Quote

Your absolutely right twolanerider!

Canuck · « **Reply #34 on:** March 13, 2006, 09:16:22 PM »

Thanks DDL, unfortunately, this bike cost me $46,000 Canadian dollars

That's without any add-ons. You guy's (Americans) don't realize how lucky you are to have a competitve market with lots of alternatives. Even the professional installs, etc. you have easy access to is enviable. That is why I am making a pilgrimage to Reno at the end of April to have some of my mods done. God Bless America [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

SEULTRA · « **Reply #35 on:** March 13, 2006, 09:25:13 PM »

Quote

Thanks DDL, unfortunately, this bike cost me $46,000 Canadian dollars That's without any add-ons. You guy's (Americans) don't realize how lucky you are to have a competitve market with lots of alternatives. Even the professional installs, etc. you have easy access to is enviable. That is why I am making a pilgrimage to Reno at the end of April to have some of my mods done. God Bless America [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Not to worry Canuck.... you're a brother... just across the border, eh?

jeffj · « **Reply #36 on:** March 13, 2006, 09:56:42 PM »

Quote

Went to my Dealer today to check on the delivery of my bike expected Wednesday.

Canuck · « **Reply #37 on:** March 13, 2006, 10:03:45 PM »

Quote

If you want the 6-speed transmission Brad @ Freedom Cycles can also do that and then dial your bike in to Scream
Freedom can install either the HD or Baker and they will be very competitive in price and labor

jeffj

That is great Jeff, thanks [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] I will give James a call to see if he will schedule the work. I didn't know they did this kind of work. I am also hoping that hd-dude will do some LED work for me while I am out there. [smiley=banana.gif]

Bungy · « **Reply #38 on:** March 13, 2006, 10:21:20 PM »

Quote

Went to my Dealer today

Canuck;

Is that Hob/Autumn (Heritage) you're dealing with?

Canuck · « **Reply #39 on:** March 13, 2006, 10:30:03 PM »

Quote

Canuck;

Is that Hob/Autumn (Heritage) you're dealing with?

No, my Dealer is Bobby at Edmonton Harley Davidson. I am thinking of bringing my bike to Heritage for any additional work. What do you think? Do you have any experience with these guys? I hear you have a great dealer in Red Deer [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Bungy · « **Reply #40 on:** March 13, 2006, 10:52:35 PM »

Don't know anything about their service. I bought my last RK from them, price was good, but never took it back for service. Hob used to be partners w/ the current owner in RD. Several buds from Edmonchuck bring their scoots to RD for service.

tmo465 · « **Reply #41 on:** March 14, 2006, 07:18:51 AM »

Hogfn....

I got 20% off list at the dealer for the complete tranny, gears, chrome inner primary,auto chain adjuster, chrome starter and the chrome oil filler cover which the book says will not fit,,,but it does.

I dont have the receipt in front of me, but take the list price and deduct the 20%, that's the parts cost i paid.

The labor charge for the complete tranny swap was $337.00. No extra charge for the install of the gears as the stock ones had to come off anyway. Same on the other parts. A total of $337.00 for the complete job in labor.

Hope that helps.

Tom

don · « **Reply #42 on:** March 16, 2006, 09:13:35 PM »

Canuck, go to Reno, leave that BOZO in the dust. Just a Southern Illinois Boy 2 cents worth. [smiley=drink.gif]

Canuck · « **Reply #43 on:** March 16, 2006, 09:43:22 PM »

Quote

Canuck, go to Reno, leave that BOZO in the dust. Just a Southern Illinois Boy 2 cents worth. [smiley=drink.gif]

That is exactly what I am going to do Don. A 3 day ride may be exactly what the doctor ordered anyway [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] It will be fun to ride back through Customs and when the Officer says "did you purchase anything while in the United States" I of course will have a very serious grin on my face and say "not a thing Officer, just down for a little RnR" [smiley=banana.gif]

Hogfn · « **Reply #44 on:** March 17, 2006, 07:04:34 AM »

Thanks TMO for the words. Now I have to decide whether I should purchase the complete tranny or just the gearing for the 6-speed change. Any suggestions all? :-/

Eqcons · « **Reply #45 on:** March 17, 2006, 07:14:46 AM »

Quote

Thanks TMO for the words.

tmo465 · « **Reply #46 on:** March 17, 2006, 07:24:48 AM »

Hogfn....

Probably I would check into the labor cost for the gearset vs the total gear box swap. If the total cost of parts and labor are nearly the same, I'd go with the total swap and sell the 5 speed to re-coup some cash. There doesnt appear to be a real solid market for the 5 speed gearset from what I can see on e-Bay. The labor cost for my swap was $337.00 total and the hourly rate at the shop here is 67.50 an hour. personally,,,like I said before, I didnt like the idea of someone grinding away on the gear case, and once they do that, you cannot go back and re-install the 5 speed gears. With the total swap, should you wish, you can swap out the box and keep the 6 speed for your new bike. (if it will fit a newer bike that is)

Grab which ever one you choose for at least 20% off at one of the dealers often mentioned, and go from there.

The new box from the factory comes complete, even new hoses and pulley, however i did have to spend an extra 300 bucks for the end cap as mine had the hydraluic clutch.

Good luck on whichever way you go,,,,you will be pleased I am sure.

Tom

grc · « **Reply #47 on:** March 17, 2006, 08:41:18 AM »

Per the H-D time standards, replacing a complete trans is 4.9 hours labor, and overhauling a trans with the case in the frame is 4.6 hours labor. Of course, your dealer may or may not use these times, since they are what Harley pays for warranty work. Dealers are free to use any time standard they want on customer pay items.

Jerry

CVOJOE · « **Reply #48 on:** March 17, 2006, 11:44:04 AM »

Haven't seen any mention in the thread, but installing a Baker trans. does have an impact on MOCO warranty I would think, unless they have an agreement with H-D. Simplest and less expensive thing seems to be use the H-D 6-speed gear kit and not split the cases with the full tranny swap. I think I was charged about 5 hours labor and they did the auto primary chain tensioner for nothing. Need to get some miles on the 6-speed to really see the change, but that's just around the bend.

Big Al · « **Reply #49 on:** April 04, 2006, 03:55:35 AM »

I am a little late on this thread but as a DD6 customer I fully resaerched the Baker site. From the Baker 2006 catalog, page 17. Here is a quote, but there is also a neat picture that compares an OD to a DD 6 speed and explains the loss.

Highlight OD6 costs 8%, DD6 costs 1% torque. :-?

"Back in 1996, we started work on the now legendary BAKER 6-speed
Overdrive (OD6). We morphed the factory

UK Dave · « **Reply #50 on:** April 04, 2006, 05:34:19 AM »

Hmmm - so is there no "Torque penalty" for the change in primary drive gearing?

So does this mean the whole transmission is running 16% faster thru the gears? (for any given engine speed)

Is this a good thing?

What about acceleration? Surely this will suffer? or am I missing something vital here?

Please keep any explanations simple - I am a simple kinda guy

Cheers

Dave

UK Dave · « **Reply #51 on:** April 07, 2006, 07:23:35 AM »

Thanks for the explanation [highlight]Big Al[/highlight] [smiley=oops.gif] - I think I've just about got that.

I certainly understand the benefit of direct drive without all the intermediate stages as far as reducing power loss is concerned

BTW we seem to be interchanging Torque and Power here - I don't think we should?

Your piece about Mechanical Advantage I understand - also from school/college in '65

I would have thought you would lose torque if you have mechanical disadvantage and gain it if you have advantage ie 1:1 or better

Think of a simple bicycle with a large front sprocket and a small rear one - you cannot lift the front wheel by pressing hard on the pedals - not that I condone these antics but you know what I mean.

Now using a mountain bike as an example you change to a smaller front cog and a larger rear one and you can lift the front wheel easy this is mechanical advantage (I think) - it's easier to turn the pedals (from a standing start) and it's torque that makes the front wheel come up (or the back wheel spin)

But what about the acceleration question?

I just re-read your post and the one from Big Al

If the primary ratio is changed to make the 1:1 of the Baker have the effect of the .94:1 OD box then surely the intermediate gear ratios...

Ah - Ha the penny just dropped (clunk) - I think?

In the Baker box all the ratios are lowered by 16% (or the same factor that the Primary is increased) thus the overall effect at the back wheel is to have gears 1 through 5 as per stock but 6th behaves like an overdrive (as far as the engine is concerned ie it's turning less for a given road speed) although 6th is actually a 1:1

That's what I was missing - the ratios of all the gears in the box being changed not just 6th (obvoius really otherwise you'd have 5th and 6th both 1:1)

Also I was maybe thinking 1st stayed where it was and 6th got added in at 1:1 and 2 through 5 were equally spaced - giving a "close ratio" box as per bikes with a narrow powerband (racers)

All cleared up for me now - but I will not be explaining this again to myself or anyone else - my brain hurts...

Cheers

Dave

Big Al · « **Reply #52 on:** April 07, 2006, 07:48:46 AM »

Dave

My head also hurts...I believe you're right, the mechanical DISadvantage of the 0.94:1 costs torque (I think)

My 6-speed history is with an early CCI OD6 in my FLHTCuI 99 sidehack rig- 75mph on 101N near Soledad....mmmmmm....click....clunk.....screech as the rear wheel locked solid...all in about 2 seconds.

Big Al · « **Reply #53 on:** April 07, 2006, 07:50:03 AM »

Quote

Hmmm - so is there no "Torque penalty" for the change in primary drive gearing?

So does this mean the whole transmission is running 16% faster thru the gears? (for any given engine speed)

Is this a good thing?

What about acceleration? Surely this will suffer? or am I missing something vital here?

Please keep any explanations simple - I am a simple kinda guy

Cheers

Dave

I lurked for a while hoping someone else would jump in... :-? but no one did so here is my take on this. (This is my recollection from a mechanical engineering required credit 40 years ago (

))

First, for a full description of the drive line and gearing/ratios you need to visit the Baker site. It explains in gory detail the 3 subsystems involved in getting RPM's to rear wheel turning.- Primary drive, Gearbox and Final Drive.

http://http://www.bakerdrivetrain.com/dialup/techinfoImages/rpmCalc.html

In the primary drive you have a smaller number of teeth driving a bigger number of teeth, that ratio of teeth (output teeth/input teeth) gives a ratio > than 1, so a mechanical advantage and speed (RPM) reduction; through the normal gearbox you have a number of ratios (eg- 3.53:1 for 1st gear, 2.8:1 for second, 2.1:1 for 3rd, 1.7:1 for 4th and 1:1 for 5th); for the final drive you have the final drive pulley (I think mine is 33 teeth) and the pulley on the wheel (i forget how many- 70?).

napalm · « **Reply #54 on:** April 13, 2006, 10:41:31 AM »

I had a HD 6-Speed installed on my 2003 Road King Classic as well as a 103 Stroker Kit. The 6-Speed along with the 103 Engine...I have to be going at least 70 MPH to be comfortable in sixth gear....any speed below that the engine seems to be lugging. Had no problems with it, I had the kit installed, not the entire tranny. Do not know if they have changed gear rations since my insallation.

I just got a 2006 Screaming Eagle Ultra Classic about six weeks ago and will keep it a 5-Speed.

SPIDERMAN · « **Reply #55 on:** April 13, 2006, 11:09:54 AM »

After reading this thread, especially this last page, all I can say is WOW. You guys sure do your homework. I have a Baker-6 in my 03 SERK and did not know exactly what was what. I did notice I had enough torque in 6th gear that I rarely had to downshift, only on the steepest climbs when I got slowed down enough that I would have dropped into 4th with a 5 speed. I also was thinking it had not benefited me in gas mileage increase. These posts confirm that. What I did think, and I guess I was wrong, was that the motor was operating at lower RPM's in 6th at 75 mph than the stock 5 speed. The bike just feels smoother at that speed than the one I had with a 5 speed in it. What's the deal ? Am I turning the same RPM's in 6th as I would be in 5th with the stock trans? Also, from what you're saying, my primary gearing had to have been changed when the Baker was installed. Is that correct ? The previous owner is the guy who commented that people on this site can't spell. I don't talk to him much. You can probably see why.

grc · « **Reply #56 on:** April 13, 2006, 11:25:09 AM »

Quote

...........................BTW- Baker DD6 was installed in 06 FLHTCUSE by my dealer at 1000 mile service.

Big Al · « **Reply #57 on:** April 13, 2006, 02:17:30 PM »

Clearly the part of

SPIDERMAN · « **Reply #58 on:** April 13, 2006, 02:28:40 PM »

I hear you there dude. My Baker 6 main bearings went south at about 26K No warranty since I'm not the original owner. Had it been an H-D 6, it would have been covered under my used vehicle ESP from H-D as was the whole shootin match involving the cam chain assembly. Lesson learned, buy the H-D, ride it for 7 years worry free of repair bills.

HUBBARD · « **Reply #59 on:** April 13, 2006, 10:24:26 PM »

Warranty is defined as workmanship, (applied and performed during assembly), and material, (used in the assembly of one or more operable components, in any given manufacturing process). Warranty is not applicable where signs of abuse, neglect, crash, or normal wear and tear are evident. The Warranty applies to the first end-user, only, unless proper documentation extends its validity to the subsequent Owner, or Owners. Any altered odometers, or conflicting in service dates, without the proper documentation from the Manufacturer, will result in the immediate termination of the Warranty, and could result in Felony Prosecution. While this may not be verbatim, it is what it says. So, basically, if it's worn out, jerked out, run dry of oil, altered, or has scars from a crash, it ain't Warranty. Any help you would receive, in this case, woud be Policy, or Good Will. Hub ain't experienced any Warranty, but has received Good Will Policy, many times. And, was not due it, either. If my chit breaks, I broke it! There endeth the lesson. Later--HUBBARD

Big Al · « **Reply #60 on:** April 14, 2006, 12:26:20 AM »

Hub

Words to live by, I believe. Good will is much better than an expensive team of lawyers...

Thanks

Puzzled · « **Reply #61 on:** April 17, 2006, 10:52:36 AM »

I just finished reading the last four pages of this thread, interesting to say the least. Both gear sets seem to have their advantages.

I'll start my questions with the SE gear set.
1. Does it require a speedometer calibration box?

In response to the reference made to the 3.37 gear ratio.
1. Did you change to this ratio?
2. What was it originally?
I ask as my bike is 3.37 stock and can afford to give up a little low end. Thus I was curious what a compensating sprocket change would do for me. AND IF I change the compensating sprocket will it affect the speedometer?

Now the Baker DD6. I understand the direct drive coupled with the compensating sprocket change. What I think I over looked or plain ol' missed was the RPM reduction in the final (6th) gear. As far as that goes what is the drop in RPM's with both the DD6 and SE 6? I'm ultimately after the RPM drop at highway speeds around 80 mph as that seems to be my cruising speed.

grc · « **Reply #62 on:** April 17, 2006, 04:04:08 PM »

Quote

I just finished reading the last four pages of this thread, interesting to say the least. Both gear sets seem to have their advantages.

I'll start my questions with the SE gear set.
1. Does it require a speedometer calibration box?

In response to the reference made to the 3.37 gear ratio.
1. Did you change to this ratio?
2. What was it originally?
I ask as my bike is 3.37 stock and can afford to give up a little low end. Thus I was curious what a compensating sprocket change would do for me. AND IF I change the compensating sprocket will it affect the speedometer?

Now the Baker DD6. I understand the direct drive coupled with the compensating sprocket change. What I think I over looked or plain ol' missed was the RPM reduction in the final (6th) gear. As far as that goes what is the drop in RPM's with both the DD6 and SE 6? I'm ultimately after the RPM drop at highway speeds around 80 mph as that seems to be my cruising speed.

Puzzled,

The H-D 6 speed does not require a speedometer recalibration, the Baker does.

hdnut · « **Reply #63 on:** April 17, 2006, 04:56:59 PM »

Anyone try the six speed that S&S sells??? [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=pumpkin.gif]

Puzzled · « **Reply #64 on:** April 17, 2006, 05:08:46 PM »

Baker offers a 2.94 or a 3.24 first gear ratio. I believe I have a 3.54 now. If so I can give up a little low end.

The sprocket change with the Bakers doesn't matter as one would need a calibration box anyway.

I'm just comparing the two units. AND I'm still undecided/confused! :-? :-/

Puzzled · « **Reply #65 on:** April 17, 2006, 05:26:02 PM »

Quote

Puzzled · « **Reply #66 on:** April 17, 2006, 06:06:00 PM »

I've done my research and here is what I currently have.
24 tooth compensating sprocket
37 tooth clutch sprocket
32 tooth transmission sprocket
70 tooth rear wheel sprocket

1.541 Primary drive ratio (engine to transmision)
2.1875 Final drive ratio (transmission to rear wheel)
3.372 Overall drive ratio

Changing to a 28 tooth compensating sprocket
1.321 Primary drive ratio
2.1875 Final drive ratio
2.890 Overall drive ratio

That overall gear ratio drop is pretty substantial.

Big Al · « **Reply #67 on:** April 18, 2006, 09:23:48 AM »

Last time I posted this, I wasn't able to make the hyperlink work.

Puzzled · « **Reply #68 on:** April 18, 2006, 05:05:51 PM »

I found myself a Baker DD6. A big thanks to Fab Kevin as he hooked me up with a sweet deal on the trans.

Big Al · « **Reply #69 on:** April 18, 2006, 05:22:28 PM »

Quote

I found myself a Baker DD6. A big thanks to Fab Kevin as he hooked me up with a sweet deal on the trans.

If you like it HALF as much as I like mine- you will love it!

Puzzled · « **Reply #70 on:** April 18, 2006, 05:29:07 PM »

I didn't forget it. I also ordered the Twisted F*** shirt to wear when I'm not around my kids! I'm guessing two weeks before it's here. Baker said it will be a week before it leaves there. I'll plan accordingly and get my miscellaneous gaskets together. I'm undecided whether to install the automatic chain tensioner or not at the same time.

Puzzled · « **Reply #71 on:** April 18, 2006, 09:04:45 PM »

Here is a SE on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Screamin-Eagle-6-Speed-Transmission-%20Gearset_W0QQitemZ4632730047QQcategoryZ35557QQrdZ1Q<br%20/>QcmdZViewItem

jfscheck · « **Reply #72 on:** April 22, 2006, 07:55:43 PM »

Do you guys really think the HD 6-Speed is needed? What RPM's does the bike drop down to with the HD 6 Speed vice the stock 5 Speed - let's say at 80 mph?

grc · « **Reply #73 on:** April 22, 2006, 09:09:27 PM »

Quote

Do you guys really think the HD 6-Speed is needed?

Puzzled · « **Reply #74 on:** April 22, 2006, 09:09:36 PM »

Quote

Do you guys really think the HD 6-Speed is needed?

Puzzled · « **Reply #75 on:** April 22, 2006, 09:13:00 PM »

Quote

John,

Difference in rpm at 80 mph = 366 rpm

Stock Primary -

jfscheck · « **Reply #76 on:** April 23, 2006, 12:21:56 AM »

I guess that is the rule - what speed you ride at makes a bearing on the usefullness of the 6th gear. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Since I usually cruise at 75-80 MAX (with bursts to triple digits to blow out the carbon

grc · « **Reply #77 on:** April 23, 2006, 07:07:26 AM »

Quote

Jerry, I wish my bike ran at 3295 at 80. That's what I'm shooting for. Like I said it depends a lot on the bike. The 01's were geared real low, wheelie bikes!

Puzzled,

Just thinking out loud here, but why not change your primary ratio to reduce your rpm's rather than go with the 6 speed? Less cash for sure.

Jerry

grc · « **Reply #78 on:** April 23, 2006, 07:13:00 AM »

Quote

I guess that is the rule - what speed you ride at makes a bearing on the usefullness of the 6th gear. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Since I usually cruise at 75-80 MAX (with bursts to triple digits to blow out the carbon

Puzzled · « **Reply #79 on:** April 23, 2006, 08:07:33 AM »

Quote

Hopefully with the Electra Glide Ultra the rpms's at 80 won't be much different (being that the Ultra weighs more) - in fact perhaps the 5th gear might be better because it will give me a bit more torque at speed...

Puzzled · « **Reply #80 on:** April 23, 2006, 08:17:05 AM »

Quote

Puzzled,
Just thinking out loud here, but why not change your primary ratio to reduce your rpm's rather than go with the 6 speed?

hogasm · « **Reply #81 on:** April 23, 2006, 09:04:01 AM »

Installed Bakers direct drive 6 speed in old Bessie. Lowered the ratio of the first 5 gears for better acceleration from a stop since I do alot of towing. In my opinion unless you want to accomplish something like I did then a 6 speed is a waste of money. You will never get a return of your money in fuel saved .

Puzzled · « **Reply #82 on:** April 23, 2006, 09:29:33 AM »

I agree I wouldn't do it for the fuel savings offsetting the cost. As far as that goes the cost of a 6 speed will buy a lot of fuel.

I'm after lowering the overall cruising RPM's. With this should come some added mileage to a tank of fuel. Stopping 8-9 times on the way to Florida stinks. So now it should be 7-8 times!

Puzzled · « **Reply #83 on:** April 23, 2006, 09:36:20 AM »

Quote

Installed Bakers direct drive 6 speed in old Bessie. Lowered the ratio of the first 5 gears for better acceleration from a stop since I do alot of towing. In my opinion unless you want to accomplish something like I did then a 6 speed is a waste of money. You will never get a return of your money in fuel saved .

Did you use the 28 tooth compensating sprocket and what first gear ratio did you go with? When I figured out my ratios I'll be going the opposite way, loosing a little gear.

Puzzled · « **Reply #84 on:** April 23, 2006, 09:41:59 AM »

Quote

This is the drivetrain calculator in which you can put in lots of combinations and check stock vs. OD6 vs. DD6 and all inbetween combos...http://www.bakerdrivetrain.com/dialup/techinfoImages/rpmCalc.html

That is great. I've been doing it with a calculator and a piece of paper. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Big Al · « **Reply #85 on:** April 24, 2006, 11:07:14 AM »

Quote

That is great. I've been doing it with a calculator and a piece of paper. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Glad it worked for you. It really helped me to understand it all, too...

Big Al · « **Reply #86 on:** April 24, 2006, 11:09:17 AM »

Quote

I agree I wouldn't do it for the fuel savings offsetting the cost. As far as that goes the cost of a 6 speed will buy a lot of fuel.

I'm after lowering the overall cruising RPM's. With this should come some added mileage to a tank of fuel. Stopping 8-9 times on the way to Florida stinks. So now it should be 7-8 times!

I think the cumulative fewer RPM's ought to buy a few % longer life also...

jfscheck · « **Reply #87 on:** April 24, 2006, 02:30:57 PM »

Quote

With this should come some added mileage to a tank of fuel. Stopping 8-9 times on the way to Florida stinks. So now it should be 7-8 times!

I need the extra 2-3 stops that you are saving for "Bio-Breaks"... [smiley=drink.gif]

Puzzled · « **Reply #88 on:** May 06, 2006, 02:24:43 PM »

Quote

If you like it HALF as much as I like mine- you will love it!

sanjoseduke · « **Reply #89 on:** May 12, 2006, 01:16:20 AM »

Seeing I started this post I thought I'd bring you up to date on my decision and how it went.

I posted part of this in another post sorry for the replication.

BK · « **Reply #90 on:** May 12, 2006, 06:19:56 AM »

SanJose, don't blame yourself for the dealers poor workmanship. Get after them and good luck.

Big Al · « **Reply #91 on:** May 12, 2006, 04:03:26 PM »

Sanjoseduke- What an painful story.

CVOJOE · « **Reply #92 on:** May 12, 2006, 07:02:12 PM »

Damn Duke, sorry to hear that about the new 6-speed! I'll be changing my lubes shortly and will definitely pay some attention to the tranny, since it has about 600 miles on the 6-speed and the install sheet says to change after initial 500 or so. Sounds like they either did not flush it out completly after the grinding or there was a gear or bearing failure in the new gear set.

Keep us posted on the verdict and what they do as far as finding you a set sooner than 2 weeks!
Joe

Nasty Habit · « **Reply #93 on:** May 14, 2006, 11:23:40 AM »

I had the SE 6 installed on my scoot about 9 weeks ago. I have now accumulated over 3,000 miles on it, and it (appears) to be flawless. My dealer NEVER told me about getting the fluid changed @ 500 miles. It was my friend CVO Joe who informed me (thank God for him, this site and all who reside here) so I didn't just go on assuming all was fine. If any pieces, parts, or metal chips were found, no one at the dealer told me about that. I suspect that they wouldn't do it anyway, but one never knows if one can really find an honest H-D dealer. I absolutely love it. I did this to lower the RPM's, like everyone else did, for those highway speeds (I ride a lot of long distance miles) and the fact that this smaller drop in RPM (500+/-) was worth this additional cost for my m/c. I agree that it isn't much help in riding those twistys that abound where I live. It does help, on a daily basis, when I choose to take the speed up, and over 60 mph. I am constantly "forgetting" that I have a 6th gear. Took some getting used to. Nice effect is when you are next to another HD and you are accelerating together, and you hear each other shift at almost the exact time/RPM. Well the fun begins when he hears you kick in the 6th. Looks will describe his amazement as the noise level drops, and the bike edges foreword... WTF? I still believe that this was the right decision. I can see how easily a dealer could "forget" to modify the case, thus leaving the extra metal to do its' damage. I suppose that I wouldn't care about which tranny I used (no HD loyality here), but that lower 6th was what got me.
Just my 1-1/2 cents worth.
NH

WaSEEG · « **Reply #94 on:** May 16, 2006, 12:09:04 AM »

Quote

Damn Duke, sorry to hear that about the new 6-speed! I'll be changing my lubes

sanjoseduke · « **Reply #95 on:** May 18, 2006, 01:23:43 AM »

Quote

Seeing I started this post I thought I'd bring you up to date on my decision and how it went.

I posted part of this in another post sorry for the replication.

Canuck · « **Reply #96 on:** May 18, 2006, 01:46:25 AM »

Congratulations Duke! I am glad you were able to get the bike sooner. Look forward to a little race in Cripple Creek [smiley=nervous.gif].

Canuck

sanjoseduke · « **Reply #97 on:** May 18, 2006, 10:12:03 AM »

Quote

Congratulations Duke!

Big Al · « **Reply #98 on:** May 18, 2006, 10:17:29 AM »

Quote

Wow I feel like a kid again. I've already blown away all my local non-CVO riders with their 88 bikes with 95 & 103 kits installed. No contest. We should be very close to neck & neck. I

Big Al · « **Reply #99 on:** June 04, 2006, 12:46:54 AM »

Duke

Follow up to my story about the lonely FatCats in my garage. ...I check again to see if my map is ready...So Pat from Zippers tells me they are close but not yet. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

He says they DO have a TM map for the D&D with gear drive 575 redshift cams and the 50mm throttle body w. SE 'like' AC. ("pulls like a freight train he says...") So I did it. Ordered the whole thing...

Should be in next week. [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=jalapeno.gif] Not in time for Cripple Creek...But we will be there...Need to check rooms etc...

The Mysterious Q! · « **Reply #100 on:** June 04, 2006, 05:40:38 PM »

Well on a little different note. My buddy who I posted earlier about all his problems with his AIH has now gone through 2 baker 6 speeds in less than a year. He doesn't beat the snot out of his bike either. maybe he just has real chitty luck,I dunno. just chirping in my .02. Q

need4speed · « **Reply #101 on:** June 14, 2006, 02:11:06 PM »

I have the Baker DD6 in my 06 FLHTCUSE. The engine is making 105HP and 112TQ and pulls just fine in 6th at 50 mph and above. I have never had to downshift.
I chose the DD6 because the ratios are the same in the HD6 as they are in the DD6 1-5. 6th is the overdirve. In 6th gear in a DD6 it is direct drive and there is no gear noise or parasitic loss due to going thru 4 gears to make the overdrive in the HD6. I even use it driving thru town cruising at 40mph. Much less engine and exhaust noise.
I "raced" a friend of mine on his, stock except pipes, 88" Softail Deluxe. He was in 5th I was in 6th at 35 mph. We both hammered the throttle and I pulled him very slightly at 1st and then started walking away from him. My bike outweighs his by about 200 lbs.

Author Topic: Six speed, HD or Baker? (Read 31647 times)

SPIDERMAN

SPIDERMAN