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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: Unbalanced on November 21, 2010, 02:27:30 PM
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:'(
2005 SEEG Cherry with 21k miles incase you have a hard time reading it 56 thousandths. or .056 as compared to the spec of .001 - .003
It didn't take out the oil pump or the cam plate just wallowed them both out a whole lot :huepfenlol2: :oops:
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. note the lack of space at 12:00 it wobbled so bad you could watch it move without the tool
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another look
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WOW! That is crazy. Did your bike show any symptoms?
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:'(
2005 SEEG Cherry with 21k miles incase you have a hard time reading it 56 thousandths. or .056 as compared to the spec of .001 - .003
It didn't take out the oil pump or the cam plate just wallowed them both out a whole lot :huepfenlol2: :oops:
And... What did you expect different :nixweiss: :nixweiss: It's a 110 Harley Motor ;D
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103 :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous:
SBB
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And... What did you expect different :nixweiss: :nixweiss: It's a 110 Harley Motor ;D
Actually a 103... and probably a long way from stock...
Still sucks.... :(
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Damn Harry your hard on chit. :'(
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103 :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous: :nervous:
SBB
103 Oh chit... thats a problem.. :P
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Do the '05's have a Jims (Screamin'eagle) crank or the imported one?
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Do the '05's have a Jims (Screamin'eagle) crank or the imported one?
The stock crank in the CVO103's was not the forged Screamin' Eagle part, just a regular cast stroker crank. And all the pressed cranks from Harley are subject to shifting, so seeing a few on TC88's or CVO103's isn't surprising at all. The difference is that the failure rate ramped way up when H-D changed the design for the TC96 and CVO110 cranks and the primary drive/trans in 2007.
Jerry
In the attachment, the CVO103 crank is the bottom one, the forged SE Pro crank is at the top.
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if its true that they all have the risk
is it worth the gasket set to take it all apart and send in the crank to be trued, plugged & welded
just to avoid the problems?
[obviously take the jugs off with the pistons still in to avoid new rings and all the other work to make the job cost less....]
i run a sidecar so wfo is not uncommon. im unlikely to raise the cubes, might do a cam, unlikely to go for high power since breaking things sucks.. but if wfo will risk f up the crank is it worth the trouble?
the bike is paid for now so im concentrating on long term reliability.
to
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Well boys, I for one am curious if you set the tool up properly.....don't mean to make a fuss here but I am curious as merely a foundation to begin from.
Ummm did you put the indent set screw in at the back of the feuling plate, and did you properly "zero" out the dial indicator before doing the check? You may indeed know how to work this tool, so I am not trying to be offensive.
There are really no instructions that come with the tool or how to use it, I for one had to acquire some "specific" instruction from a "precision machinest" that was gracious enough to teach me how to use this "particular" tool, buttttttt lol perhaps you were/are much more familiar with the tool than when I received mine.
Fill me in on your procedure on how you used it if you don't mind.
.056" would "typically" result in a total catastrophic failure.
Regards,
Tim
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Well boys, I for one am curious if you set the tool up properly.....don't mean to make a fuss here but I am curious as merely a foundation to begin from.
Ummm did you put the indent set screw in at the back of the feuling plate, and did you properly "zero" out the dial indicator before doing the check? You may indeed know how to work this tool, so I am not trying to be offensive.
There are really no instructions that come with the tool or how to use it, I for one had to acquire some "specific" instruction from a "precision machinest" that was gracious enough to teach me how to use this "particular" tool, buttttttt lol perhaps you were/are much more familiar with the tool than when I received mine.
Fill me in on your procedure on how you used it if you don't mind.
.056" would "typically" result in a total catastrophic failure.
Regards,
Tim
I totally agree with you Tim, .056" R/O would rip the engine apart.
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I totally agree with you Tim, .056" R/O would rip the engine apart.
If you look at the plate shaft hole in relation to the shaft, (did i say that right) you can tell the shaft is way out of whack which leads me to believe the .056 :nixweiss: I wonder what the wear on the shaft looks like.
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If you look at the plate shaft hole in relation to the shaft, (did i say that right) you can tell the shaft is way out of whack which leads me to believe the .056 :nixweiss: I wonder what the wear on the shaft looks like.
If the tool was indeed placed correctly (ie: secured and "zeroed" out) then the results are what they are, like I mentioned above just checking to make sure the "proper" steps were followed, if you look closely at the above photo you will see two things:
1) That the little dial is showing around "1" that indicates how many revolutions the dial indicator has gone around as
the needle of the dial indicator is seated on the shaft normally that number might show let's say 6 or perhaps 7 when or if the dial indicator gets to "10" essentially the needle of the dial indicator has been pushed 10 revolutions which "bottoms" out the dial indicator making it impossible to read anything, because of it being "bottomed out" and
there is then no "up" or "down" reading available to be made.
EDIT:
Opppps, I meant that the "smaller" dial indicator is at around 8 intead of the "1" as I stated above, which actually does result in the dial indicator being "somewhat" close to being bottomed out but it's not "officially" bottomed out.
2) If you also look closely at the "exposed" shaft of the dial indicator at least from the angle of the photo it appears
to be "bottomed" out (although technically feuling did design it in such a way that you can't actually push the dial
indicater's round face so far down and touch the top of the feuling plate) and if that's so then the little dial should be reading a "higher" number, and because it's not that sort of "begs" the question of why isn't it. The dial indicator only needs to be pushed down on to the shaft enough to have the dial indicator's needle come into contact with the pinion shaft. Once it is in contact then the set screw on the back of the plate is snugged against the shaft of the dial indicator just enough to hold it in postion keeping the dial indicator's shaft from moving up or down. Once the shaft is "properly"
secured you then loosen the 1:00 o'clock "small" knob and
rotate the the face of the dial indicator and orient the face so zero on the indicator is located where the needle points to. Once you have this set up then you rotate the rear tire
slowly from the right side of the bike in a clockwise rotation as you rotate the tire one full revolution you will see the needle of the dial indicator move to the "left" of zero, slowly
rotate again remembering where you noticed the needle at the furthest to the left of zero, once you find this spot again
stop rotating the tire and go back to the dial indicator face and turn the dial indicator face to the left reorienting the face to read zero. Now tighten the 1:00 o'clock knob of the dial indicator so it is snug which keeps the face in that position, this is called/referred to as "ZEROING OUT THE DIAL INDICATOR" once this is completed you are ready to check the "run-out", simply move yourself to the right side of the bike again and slowly rotate the tire in a "clockwise" position and watch the movement of the needle of the dial indicator, each line to the right that the needle moves is one thousanths (.001") of run-out. You only need to rotate the tire 4 or so revolutions, I put a magic marker mark on the wheel to note a revolution.
Perhaps these steps were followed and if so then great if they weren't they need to be.
Weeewwwww I can't believe I typed all of that out, LOL.
Regards,
Tim
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If the tool was indeed placed correctly (ie: secured and "zeroed" out) then the results are what they are, like I mentioned above just checking to make sure the "proper" steps were followed, if you look closely at the above photo you will see two things:
1) That the little dial is showing around "1" that indicates how many revolutions the dial indicator has gone around as
the needle of the dial indicator is seated on the shaft normally that number might show let's say 6 or perhaps 7 when or if the dial indicator gets to "10" essentially the needle of the dial indicator has been pushed 10 revolutions which "bottoms" out the dial indicator making it impossible to read anything, because of it being "bottomed out" and
there is then no "up" or "down" reading available to be made.
2) If you also look closely at the "exposed" shaft of the dial indicator at least from the angle of the photo it appears
to be "bottomed" out (although technically feuling did design it in such a way that you can't actually push the dial
indicater's round face so far down and touch the top of the feuling plate) and if that's so then the little dial should be reading a "higher" number, and because it's not that sort of "begs" the question of why isn't it. The dial indicator only needs to be pushed down on to the shaft enough to have the dial indicator's needle come into contact with the pinion shaft. Once it is in contact then the set screw on the back of the plate is snugged against the shaft of the dial indicator just enough to hold it in postion keeping the dial indicator's shaft from moving up or down. Once the shaft is "properly"
secured you then loosen the 1:00 o'clock "small" knob and
rotate the the face of the dial indicator and orient the face so zero on the indicator is located where the needle points to. Once you have this set up then you rotate the rear tire
slowly from the right side of the bike in a clockwise rotation as you rotate the tire one full revolution you will see the needle of the dial indicator move to the "left" of zero, slowly
rotate again remembering where you noticed the needle at the furthest to the left of zero, once you find this spot again
stop rotating the tire and go back to the dial indicator face and turn the dial indicator face to the left reorienting the face to read zero. Now tighten the 1:00 o'clock knob of the dial indicator so it is snug which keeps the face in that position, this is called/referred to as "ZEROING OUT THE DIAL INDICATOR" once this is completed you are ready to check the "run-out", simply move yourself to the right side of the bike again and slowly rotate the tire in a "clockwise" position and watch the movement of the needle of the dial indicator, each line to the right that the needle moves is one thousanths (.001") of run-out. You only need to rotate the tire 4 or so revolutions, I put a magic marker mark on the wheel to note a revolution.
Perhaps these steps were followed and if so then great if they weren't they need to be.
Weeewwwww I can't believe I typed all of that out, LOL.
Regards,
Tim
Let me try to comment...
The dial indicator used has 1" of travel. 10 revolutions of 100 thousands equals 1 inch.
The large indicator pointer travels clockwise. The small indicator pointer travels counter-clockwise. The motion of the gear on the large dial traveling clockwise drives the gear of the smaller pointer counter clockwise. The gear on the larger pointer is 10 times the diameter of the gear on the smaller pointer. This is why the numbers on the smaller dial are labeled in a counter clockwise direction and the numbers on the larger pointer are labeled in a clockwise direction.
The reading on the indicator is .856 (less than 1 inch) - which indicates the indicator is not bottomed out.
If attempting to measure a reading in excess of .100, it is necessary to "zero" out both the small dial pointer and the large dial pointer. In this instance, you would need to read both the large dial and small dial numbers and add them together. (.800 + .056 = .856)
If attempting to measure a reading less than .100, it is only necessary to "zero" out the large dial pointer. In this case, Harry was attempting to measure a reading less that .100 - leaving the reading on the small dial meaningless. Only the large dial numbers hold meaning. (.056)
The second and third photos are a visual indication of how much runout exists - and to my eye appear to be the .056 shown on the indicator. So I believe the indicator was set up (zeroed) properly, and the runout is as Harry has stated - .056
This amount of runout at the extreme end of the shaft would certainly cause wear in the cam plate, and would certainly cause wear in the oil pump. Given enough running time in this condition, eventually there would be a catastropic failure of the oil pump. I think Harry was lucky to find the condition before more damage occured...
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Fill me in on your procedure on how you used it if you don't mind.
.056" would "typically" result in a total catastrophic failure.
Regards,
Tim
Harry had written a quite effective post answering your question earlier Tim. He must have been dissatisfied with his own response as it was removed shortly after it was posted though.
In any case the explanation was that of course he knew how to use his tool (that's not intended as a pun or double entendre). He explained he was sure of its use and accuracy because... well.... because the mechanic who was actually using it had told him so.
Harry generally doesn't work on his stuff himself (again, no pun nor double entendre intended). He's more about improving the work of others after he's paid them to do it for him to begin with.
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Harry had written a quite effective post answering your question earlier Tim. He must have been dissatisfied with his own response as it was removed shortly after it was posted though.
In any case the explanation was that of course he knew how to use his tool (that's not intended as a pun or double entendre). He explained he was sure of its use and accuracy because... well.... because the mechanic who was actually using it had told him so.
Harry generally doesn't work on his stuff himself (again, no pun nor double entendre intended). He's more about improving the work of others after he's paid them to do it for him to begin with.
:huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
SBB
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Harry had written a quite effective post answering your question earlier Tim. He must have been dissatisfied with his own response as it was removed shortly after it was posted though.
In any case the explanation was that of course he knew how to use his tool (that's not intended as a pun or double entendre). He explained he was sure of its use and accuracy because... well.... because the mechanic who was actually using it had told him so.
Harry generally doesn't work on his stuff himself (again, no pun nor double entendre intended). He's more about improving the work of others after he's paid them to do it for him to begin with.
:huepfenlol2:
Now that's funny...
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Twolane,
Thanks for the input, hopefully he isn't upset as that wasn't my motivation. Any comments that are raised regarding the proper use of an instrument, or questioning whether someone has used a testing instrument correctly very well may create some frustration, my comments/questions were not meant to upset the original poster, if in fact they did.
The instructions may still benefit someone down the road.
But let's face it .056" run out is 3 TIMES worse than .019" run-out which HD signifies being enough to cause catastrophic failure.........he definitely should feel "blessed" to have no damage to anything given the run-out results.
Regards,
Tim
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But let's face it .056" run out is 3 TIMES worse than .019" run-out which HD signifies being enough to cause catastrophic failure.........he definitely should feel "blessed" to have no damage to anything given the run-out results.
Regards,
Tim
No one could help but have the same thought Tim. Over 1/20th of an inch is going to eat something. In short order. Harry was indeed a lucky rider to be so graced.
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Sadunbar-
Thank you for pointing out what you stated above about the smaller indicator moving in a reverse direction, I mixed that up in my mind that's why I automatically thought in the photo above that the number was a 1 instead of the aprx 8.5 that it is as you pointed out, and while "offically" this is fine the dial indicator shaft doesn't need to be pushed down so far, wouldn't you agree, in other words just pushing the shaft of the dial indicator needle far enough to secure it with the set screw in the back would be better?
Anyway I appreciate your input above.
Regards,
Tim
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Tim,
No offense was taken, although I am not planning on turning this into a science project beyond its broke and needs some TLC now. The intent was more to show that it is not just the 110's that have issues.
I was rushed earlier and had too leave and I wasn't satisfied with the answer I had typed so i deleted it. The Fueling Unit was setup correctly. The number is what it is and the dealer echo'd your very lucky and indeed I feel I was. The dealership had other motors there from .020 to .036 that the cranks had also failed on most were 96". On the .036 crank they to pry the pump off and it was in 15 pieces and marred greatly.
To those humorous few that sent PM's asking whether I knew how to use my tool :sauer021:
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Sadunbar-
Thank you for pointing out what you stated above about the smaller indicator moving in a reverse direction, I mixed that up in my mind that's why I automatically thought in the photo above that the number was a 1 instead of the aprx 8.5 that it is as you pointed out, and while "offically" this is fine the dial indicator shaft doesn't need to be pushed down so far, wouldn't you agree, in other words just pushing the shaft of the dial indicator needle far enough to secure it with the set screw in the back would be better?
Anyway I appreciate your input above.
Regards,
Tim
Generally with this style of indicator, the center of the total travel of the indicator is the most supported position of the indicator shaft, and produces the most accurate readings.... In the instance of .056...that's a country mile. I don't think it mattered where the indicator was positioned. Really bad is Really bad regardless.....
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Hey Harry,,
I think you have a bad crank :huepfenlol2:
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Hey Harry,,
I think you have a bad crank :huepfenlol2:
cvobiker,
No way i still have .044 to go.
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cvobiker,
No way i still have .044 to go.
We'll call it Harry's Flex Crank..... Hey' you proved it works.... :bananarock:
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Hey Harry,,
I think you have a bad crank :huepfenlol2:
Maybe the runout equates to ribbed for greater pleasure?
Sorry... I couldnt resist!
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Dunno bout Flex was thinking more like another word starting with F.
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You didnt let Howie ride it didja? He breaks everything..
Bummer...44 thou to go, no worries...see you in Eustis in February. :drink:
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You didnt let Howie ride it didja? He breaks everything..
Bummer...44 thou to go, no worries...see you in Eustis in February. :drink:
Miker,
Nice Pot Stir Sir! :2vrolijk_20:
Look forward to seeing you in Feb/March.
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So......The final say is that all H-D Motors have runout problems. And no one has a final Cure???? :nervous:
I'm looking to solve my 110's reliability.
Thanks :2vrolijk_21:
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There are cures, but the point is why should you have to cure it when it should come that way from the start.
Give me the good cranks and timkens again and move on down the road its the one the main parts of the motorcycle that should be rock solid and not left to a bean counter.
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So......The final say is that all H-D Motors have runout problems. And no one has a final Cure???? :nervous:
I'm looking to solve my 110's reliability.
Thanks :2vrolijk_21:
Well.... not entirely George. It doesn't pass the sniff test that Harry's crank got that far out all on its own. Harry's crank had some help from Harry's crank(ing).
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:o
While Don would like to find the fault with the crank as the loose nut at the wheel (handlebars) I have to respectfully disagree. That motor was not beat on or abused by me. It had 12k from the original owners and less than 4.5k by me on it. It was only put back in due to the failure of the Jim's motor right before our trip in Sept to NC.
Sorry to disappoint.
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:o
While Don would like to find the fault with the crank as the loose nut at the wheel (handlebars) I have to respectfully disagree. That motor was not beat on or abused by me. It had 12k from the original owners and less than 4.5k by me on it. It was only put back in due to the failure of the Jim's motor right before our trip in Sept to NC.
Sorry to disappoint.
Riding it hard isn't "fault" Harry. Unless for some reason you see it that way. You didn't get blame for a thing. Unless insecurities see it that way. Just the not unexpected thought that sometime in its life it got rode hard if the crank is that far out.
If someone wonders "why not unexpected?" That's also obvious. The oil pump didn't live a long time getting kicked up and down that much every revolution. So it didn't come out of the box that way. Somewhere along its travels something happened.
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Isnt 2003 the first year for the roller bearing setup???????
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Isnt 2003 the first year for the roller bearing setup???????
yes
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Wow- thats a bunch. What were the symtoms?? Curious ive been trying to track down a vibration
:bananarock:
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Vanamal,
It was perceived as a transmission / drive line vibration .
It started as a small vibration that was in the footboards and seat but went away after about 2900 rpm and was only noticable to start around 2400-2800 rpms as it got worse you would notice it below 3000 rpms and especially on decell.
The dealer checked:
Wheel bearings
Tire Pressure
Tranny
Alignment
leak down
Fuel Pressure
Injectors
Tune to be sure it was not too lean
Finally a runout check.
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thanks- ill ck runout next- same symptoms i have!! :bananarock:
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Good luck let us knwo what you find.
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Well.... not entirely George. It doesn't pass the sniff test that Harry's crank got that far out all on its own. Harry's crank had some help from Harry's crank(ing).
Oh.h.h.h.h.....The pot stirrer I am today. :morningcoffee:
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Vagabond not really, you were more of a catalyst today.
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Vagabond not really, you were more of a catalyst today.
;D Darnn ;D :D
But agree on timkens & trued and welded cranks. Oh did I mentioned balanced? :2vrolijk_21:
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You maybe on to something there with the balanced stuff :) :huepfenlol2:
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im chasing the bad vibe. tore it apart this afternoon but runout looks great to me!
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im chasing the bad vibe. tore it apart this afternoon but runout looks great to me!
Gotta be an S&S crank your measuring there :nixweiss:
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Somethings to check are the swingarm to be tight, motor mounts and heim joints. Also you may want to disconnect all the mounts and all the motor to settle on a quick run around the block then reset the motor. Many times the top motor mount pushes the motor to one side or the other and can create a bad vibration.