Post by: SDCVO on March 31, 2018, 12:08:32 AM
I am so frustrated I cant think straight!
Before I got this bike Oct 2016 I went and rode many different bikes trying to find something other than another Harley since I still have my 12 CVO Roadglide but i just couldn't find anything else that I really liked though obviously now I wish I would have.
I was so proud of myself when I pulled into that gas station knowing I was done breaking it in and that I actually never "ripped" the throttle and broke it in easy-how ironic..
Really not sure where to go from here but this is getting very close to the definition of insanity!
Post by: YELLOWBIRD on March 31, 2018, 07:14:23 AM
Sorry to hear bout that Allan!
Good thing is that you still have your warranty. Better thing is that you still have your CVO
Road Glide to Rip around with.
YB
Post by: grc on March 31, 2018, 09:07:02 AM
Sorry to hear it Alan. That truly sucks.
I'd say, based on your experiences and those of some others with multiple failures, Harley still doesn't have a handle on the real root cause of this problem. It's pretty sad when they can't get something as basic as this right the first time (or the second, or third, etc.). Good luck.
Jerry
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on March 31, 2018, 09:13:41 AM
Post by: CVOStreetglide on March 31, 2018, 09:18:00 AM
Sorry to hear it Alan. That truly sucks.
I'd say, based on your experiences and those of some others with multiple failures, Harley still doesn't have a handle on the real root cause of this problem. It's pretty sad when they can't get something as basic as this right the first time (or the second, or third, etc.). Good luck.
Jerry
SDCVO:
I hate to even mention it but this issue has gone on long enough!! It may be time for Harley to step up and buy all of these bikes back OR provide a new 2018 in exchange.
If not the nasty old government may get involved very soon.
Like everyone here I am very sorry for your loss and admire your tenacity.
Best regards
other Jerry
Post by: mark on March 31, 2018, 10:11:51 AM
There's something I call "confidence of reliability" that HD just can't seem to deliver. With the problems you've had (one post on this site said a guy's been thru six engines on his M8) would you really feel confident about taking that 2,000+ mile bike trip...or would you constantly be worried your engine is going to ruin the trip?
Hope you get this worked out - but there's not really anything you can do, short of going to another brand, until the MoCo identifies the true problem.
Post by: fastfreddy on March 31, 2018, 02:00:11 PM
Post by: SDCVO on March 31, 2018, 10:41:44 PM
Dang Alan, that really sucks. I'm sure they will have to replace the motor again, but that sucks as the bike is down. Did they put in the very latest oil pump from after Nov 2017?Yes and they told me since they have been using the new oil pumps they (that dealer) has not seen any issues. They won't be saying that anymore.
I will be calling the Motor Co Monday morning and I am going to professionally "light them up". This is beyond ridiculous!
On my Roadglide I gave up on Harley TC and put in a S&S motor after blowing up the 120r I foolishly put in. My actual plan when I got this bike was to have a reliable newer bike for most miles and the RG for ripping it up. Ironic I know..
Post by: newseultra07 on March 31, 2018, 11:01:09 PM
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on April 01, 2018, 08:45:29 AM
I think your the first I have heard that has had the issue with the new oil pump. I was really hoping that had solved it. Very sad it has not.
Post by: J.D. on April 01, 2018, 08:48:00 AM
Post by: kojak on April 01, 2018, 02:00:42 PM
Post by: grc on April 01, 2018, 04:02:39 PM
Alan,
I think your the first I have heard that has had the issue with the new oil pump. I was really hoping that had solved it. Very sad it has not.
Actually, I've seen several reports of multiple failures with the same bike with new engines and the latest design oil pump. If the dealers were just repairing the existing engine it would be easy (and often accurate) to blame poor workmanship. But when Harley ships a brand new engine to the dealership and all they do is bolt it into the frame, and that one also fails, that tells me in no uncertain terms that H-D has no clue. Btw, there have been more than a few reports of sumping with bone stock M8's, standard as well as CVO models, so this isn't just a Stage IV kit issue or just an oil pump issue. They need to learn how to find the root cause of their many issues, instead of carrying on their tradition of throwing band-aids at things to try to slide by.
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: JCZ on April 02, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
You're probably a little surprised that this is coming from me but.........BMW came out with a new model of the 1600 a couple of weeks ago that has a very comfortable riding position (forward mounted, angled floor boards) and look at the HP and TQ numbers and this is stock! Take a look.... https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=114990.msg1461371#msg1461371
Post by: grc on April 02, 2018, 12:00:12 PM
I'm really sorry to hear this Alan.....I feel you! And you were so damn happy with that bike and now this, after the issues you had with the Road Glide.
You're probably a little surprised that this is coming from me but.........BMW came out with a new model of the 1600 a couple of weeks ago that has a very comfortable riding position (forward mounted, angled floor boards) and look at the HP and TQ numbers and this is stock! Take a look.... https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=114990.msg1461371#msg1461371
Germany has some of the highest labor costs in the world, and yet they sell that bike for $26k MSRP with a list of standard features that makes a $40k Harley look like a slacker. Even with a Stage IV kit the Harley can't come close to the performance of the Beemer, and the Harley isn't even close in the engine reliability area. Now that they've created a model for the laid back American rider, I can't imagine why more Harley riders wouldn't switch in a heart beat.
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: newseultra07 on April 02, 2018, 01:16:15 PM
Post by: CVOStreetglide on April 02, 2018, 03:03:24 PM
Lemon Law applies to this situation. HD should step up buy the bike back without any questions asked...
Agreed!! Enough is enough!!
Post by: CoachMose on April 02, 2018, 03:27:09 PM
Lemon Law applies to this situation. HD should step up buy the bike back without any questions asked...I was thinking the same thing.
Post by: JCZ on April 02, 2018, 09:05:24 PM
Germany has some of the highest labor costs in the world, and yet they sell that bike for $26k MSRP with a list of standard features that makes a $40k Harley look like a slacker. Even with a Stage IV kit the Harley can't come close to the performance of the Beemer, and the Harley isn't even close in the engine reliability area. Now that they've created a model for the laid back American rider, I can't imagine why more Harley riders wouldn't switch in a heart beat.
JMHO - Jerry
That's what I'm thinking Jerry. However, talking with Alan today, I don't think he's quite there yet.
Post by: SDCVO on April 02, 2018, 11:49:14 PM
That's what I'm thinking Jerry. However, talking with Alan today, I don't think he's quite there yet.As I told JC today I did go and ride it and for sure the performance is great and if I was looking for a every day rider for transportation I would be all over it but it just doesn't have that "it" deal going on. I know that sounds crazy and boy do I wish this bike did it for me but it just doesn't. Right now I hate the fact I love Harleys like I do and considering taking up bowling..
Post by: JCZ on April 03, 2018, 07:15:47 AM
As I told JC today I did go and ride it and for sure the performance is great and if I was looking for a every day rider for transportation I would be all over it but it just doesn't have that "it" deal going on. I know that sounds crazy and boy do I wish this bike did it for me but it just doesn't. Right now I hate the fact I love Harleys like I do and considering taking up bowling..
Don't do it......it's a dangerous sport and you'll hurt yourself! But if you do......I want to see pictures. :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
Miss our rides buddy!
Post by: SDCVO on April 04, 2018, 11:48:09 PM
Don't do it......it's a dangerous sport and you'll hurt yourself! But if you do......I want to see pictures. :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:You too JC, you and Babe need to pull that beast to left side soon so I can chase you around some more!
Miss our rides buddy!
Post by: Heatwave on April 26, 2018, 12:56:57 PM
As I posted a couple of months ago bike sumped and I melted the motor. Harley replaced entire motor and stage 4 and I got it back a few weeks ago. For the first time ever I made myself "play by the rules" and break it in exactly like the dealer told me not going past 3000 rpm's for the first 250 miles, change oil at 500 miles and then not over 4000 RPM's until 1000 miles. I had the tune scheduled for tomorrow to put back the TTS. Last Saturday I put the last 400 miles on to complete the 1000 mile break in and stopped at the gas station a couple of miles from my house to fill up so I would be ready to roll tomorrow morning and when I took off from the station bike fell on its face and I knew I was screwed. Got home and oil barely registered on the stick. got to dealer Wed and they called me yesterday to tell me bike sumped again!
I am so frustrated I cant think straight!
Before I got this bike Oct 2016 I went and rode many different bikes trying to find something other than another Harley since I still have my 12 CVO Roadglide but i just couldn't find anything else that I really liked though obviously now I wish I would have.
I was so proud of myself when I pulled into that gas station knowing I was done breaking it in and that I actually never "ripped" the throttle and broke it in easy-how ironic..
Really not sure where to go from here but this is getting very close to the definition of insanity!
What's the latest update on your bike since the 2nd engine sumped?
Post by: smkymtnboy on April 26, 2018, 01:07:03 PM
Post by: Joel on April 26, 2018, 11:08:06 PM
The local dealer wants me to buy a new bike but no way, when I go for a ride it is for days and miles compounded by fun and knowing I am riding home.
Demo days are this weekend, if I go I will ask about the oil sumpping saga to see what they say.
Post by: SDCVO on April 26, 2018, 11:37:40 PM
What's the latest update on your bike since the 2nd engine sumped?dealer just finished it today. I will do the 500 mile break-in this weekend. Im cautiously optimistic, we will see..
Post by: Heatwave on April 26, 2018, 11:47:45 PM
dealer just finished it today. I will do the 500 mile break-in this weekend. Im cautiously optimistic, we will see..
Looking forward to hearing how it turns out. I assume this is a new CVO 114 with a stage IV kit and the latest oil pump. Hopefully all goes well with your break-in as this is exactly what I’m having done next week. The 3rd engine in my CVO is getting its Stage IV upgrade with the latest oil pump. Sure hoping the third time is the charm.
Post by: SDCVO on April 27, 2018, 12:06:28 AM
Looking forward to hearing how it turns out. I assume this is a new CVO 114 with a stage IV kit and the latest oil pump. Hopefully all goes well with your break-in as this is exactly what I’m having done next week. The 3rd engine in my CVO is getting its Stage IV upgrade with the latest oil pump. Sure hoping the third time is the charm.Thats correct, this will be the 3rd M8 stage 4 (first 1 was a stage 3) and also hoping 3rd time is the charm!
Might get ugly if this one sumps..
Post by: BigLew on April 27, 2018, 09:19:28 AM
As I told JC today I did go and ride it and for sure the performance is great and if I was looking for a every day rider for transportation I would be all over it but it just doesn't have that "it" deal going on. I know that sounds crazy and boy do I wish this bike did it for me but it just doesn't. Right now I hate the fact I love Harleys like I do and considering taking up bowling..Or maybe ping pong! LOL.....Hey Alan have you looked at a MOTUS? Seen a few but haven't ridden one yet. Wondering if Susie and I could make a touring bike out of one with the tour pak on it. It is a cool scooter and made in the US
BigLew
Post by: happyman on April 28, 2018, 12:17:29 AM
Germany has some of the highest labor costs in the world, and yet they sell that bike for $26k MSRP with a list of standard features that makes a $40k Harley look like a slacker. Even with a Stage IV kit the Harley can't come close to the performance of the Beemer, and the Harley isn't even close in the engine reliability area. Now that they've created a model for the laid back American rider, I can't imagine why more Harley riders wouldn't switch in a heart beat.this time next year thing are going to go to hell I a hand basket. when all this wonderful m8s keep getting a couple miles on them and they puke and will keep puking repeatedly. to those who do anything other than the SE stuff your liable to get a hosing of your life even if it would have mad e no difference at all, in the outcome . it is what it is . how a company can get away with this is amazing to say the least.
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: SDCVO on April 28, 2018, 01:01:10 AM
Germany has some of the highest labor costs in the world, and yet they sell that bike for $26k MSRP with a list of standard features that makes a $40k Harley look like a slacker. Even with a Stage IV kit the Harley can't come close to the performance of the Beemer, and the Harley isn't even close in the engine reliability area. Now that they've created a model for the laid back American rider, I can't imagine why more Harley riders wouldn't switch in a heart beat.I was telling JC that I went on the BMW K1600 forum when I started checking out the bike and they were talking more crap then we do! The "Beemer crowd" hates the bike (even the salesperson was complaining that the bags were not removable) and sales in the last 6 months on the bagger have been horrible. Dealer I went to has only sold 4 out of 150 bikes in the last 6 months. Bad news with that is aftermarket won't be in a rush to come up with the solutions I need without the units hitting the streets. Really hoping my Streetglide doesn't sump again and I can wait until the 19 BMW comes out and hopefully updates the electronics (gps and screen) and either they or the aftermarket comes up with forward controls.
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: JCZ on April 28, 2018, 12:13:10 PM
I've been on the Goldwing forum as well as the BMW forum a few times over the years and just like our forum....the large majority of posts are complaints and not post talking about how much they like the bike.
For the B and the GA BMW models, the posts from actual owners is a little more positive but still very slow due to not many owners yet. The BMW dealership in Sturgis just got his first B and GA models a week ago.....so they're still relatively new.
But yes, they definitely need forward controls and some way of getting around that 101 mph limiter on the GA. :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: SDCVO on April 28, 2018, 11:19:51 PM
Post by: CHH_Badkarma on April 29, 2018, 01:56:48 AM
Post by: Heatwave on April 29, 2018, 06:11:39 AM
took first break in ride today. 375 miles-no sump, good start... Lets see how tomorrow goes. Going with stock header and exhaust with HD stage 4 tune for a couple thousand miles before I put header back on and get it re tuned with TTS. Want to make sure (hopefully) I don't have another issue. Once I get about a thousand miles on I am going to start running it hard and will see how it holds up.
That’s encouraging to hear. I’m going in for my stage IV upgrade (3rd time) this week. Stock header with Street Cannons plus SE Street Tuner map. I’ve put over 2000 miles on this stock engine with no signs of sumping but ir will still be getting the latest oil pump installed. How many miles did you have on the stock engine before it was upgraded to Stage IV?
Post by: happyman on April 29, 2018, 08:38:38 AM
That’s encouraging to hear. I’m going in for my stage IV upgrade (3rd time) this week. Stock header with Street Cannons plus SE Street Tuner map. I’ve put over 2000 miles on this stock engine with no signs of sumping but ir will still be getting the latest oil pump installed. How many miles did you have on the stock engine before it was upgraded to Stage IV?Seriously, BEST OF LUCK with the venture.
Post by: Para Bellum on April 29, 2018, 04:33:56 PM
That’s encouraging to hear. I’m going in for my stage IV upgrade (3rd time) this week. Stock header with Street Cannons plus SE Street Tuner map. I’ve put over 2000 miles on this stock engine with no signs of sumping but ir will still be getting the latest oil pump installed. How many miles did you have on the stock engine before it was upgraded to Stage IV?I had 300+ miles on my engine when I had the Stage 3 installed. We've been drowning in rain here
so only 1300 miles total now and no sumping (fingers crossed) BUT they didn't put in the new oil pump...so we will see. Mine was originally built right before the cutoff date for old oil pump, so wondering if I might have gotten one of the new ones by lucky mistake. Gonna be wondering about that for awhile.
Post by: JCZ on April 29, 2018, 04:43:44 PM
Anxious to see your report later today. :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: SDCVO on April 29, 2018, 11:04:51 PM
Just so I'm clear......this was the bike that you were going to leave stock for reliability? :huepfenlol2:In my twisted mind going with a HD stage 4 from the dealer is keeping it stock..
Anxious to see your report later today. :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: Para Bellum on April 29, 2018, 11:17:21 PM
In my twisted mind going with a HD stage 4 from the dealer is keeping it stock..Good one, Alan...even if you might need help. :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: SDCVO on April 29, 2018, 11:20:33 PM
Not happy! Already reached out to service mgr (sure he loves that he gave me his cell number..) and they are picking up bike tomorrow. Bike did run strong all weekend and I did push it a bit on the way home so that part doesn't completely make sense if it sumped again.
I really hope there is a explanation for this but if not I ma not sure what I am going to do but going to be forced to do something.
Stay tuned..crap!!
Post by: Heatwave on April 29, 2018, 11:35:21 PM
So put the rest of the 500 miles on today and bike ran great all weekend BUT-when I got home and checked the oil it was down to half way down the stick when it was to the top when I got home last night.
Not happy! Already reached out to service mgr (sure he loves that he gave me his cell number..) and they are picking up bike tomorrow. Bike did run strong all weekend and I did push it a bit on the way home so that part doesn't completely make sense if it sumped again.
I really hope there is a explanation for this but if not I ma not sure what I am going to do but going to be forced to do something.
Stay tuned..crap!!
My understanding is that oil will build in the crankcase to a certain extent after the engine is shutoff. However to properly measure oil on the dipstick or in the crankcase, you need to follow the steps in SB1450 to determine if sumping is occuring.
The bike should be warm and needs to idle for a period of time before checking the oil level. Is it possible you checked the oil right after a ride where you turned the engine off with little or no idle time before shutoff? It is possible you’re NOT sumping and simply checked the oil level before the pump had a chance to remove it after shutdown. Under normal circumstances, oil will likely collect in the crankcase if the engine is turned off before it has been entirely pumped into the pan.
If you checked at this moment, it would appear low on the dipstick however in the first minute or 2 the next time the bike was started, the pump would have emptied the crankcase and your level would be normal again.
That’s why the steps in SB1450 are very important to follow before measuring the oil on the dipstick (or in the crankcase). Just a thought to consider since the bike sounded like it was running properly.
Post by: SDCVO on April 29, 2018, 11:37:17 PM
My understanding is that oil will build in the crankcase to a certain extent after the engine is shutoff. However to properly measure oil on the dipstick or in the crankcase, you need to follow the steps in SB1450 to determine if sumping is occuring.God I hope your right.. I did shut it off without idling long.
The bike should be warm and needs to idle for a period of time before checking the oil level. Is it possible you checked the oil right after a ride where you turned the engine off with little or no idle time before shutoff? It is possible you’re NOT sumping and simply checked the oil level before the pump had a chance to remove it. Under normal circumstances, oil will likely collect in the crankcase if the engine is turned off before it has been entirely pumped into the pan.
If you checked at this moment, it would appear low on the dipstick however in the first minute or 2 the next time the bike was started, the pump would have emptied the crankcase and your level would be normal again.
That’s why the steps in SB1450 are very important to follow before measuring the oil on the dipstick (or in the crankcase). Just a thought to consider since the bike sounded like it was running properly.
Post by: SDCVO on April 29, 2018, 11:40:38 PM
She also likes to point out like JC that I said I wanted this bike because I needed a reliable stock bike to depend on...
Post by: Cvostu on April 29, 2018, 11:47:02 PM
Post by: Heatwave on April 29, 2018, 11:47:28 PM
God I hope your right.. I did shut it off without idling long.
I certainly understand the “panic” as I did the same thing. But if the bike was running properly (no overheating or power loss), I really suspect you may have simply checked the oil too soon afer shutdown. SB1450 states you need to let a warm engine idle for 2 minutes, then shutdown, then immediately check the oil level.
My guess is if you follow thise steps, you’ll find the oil level is back to normal based on your feedback that it ran well.
Post by: JCZ on April 30, 2018, 12:25:28 AM
And to make matters worse when I was riding my 12 Roadglide last weekend the front speakers stopped working so that bike is at the stereo shop and my wife is giving me endless crap about "how many motorcycles do I have to have so I can keep one running".. She is very much enjoying my frustration
She also likes to point out like JC that I said I wanted this bike because I needed a reliable stock bike to depend on...
ROFL..... :P :P Just tell her it's my fault! :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
I checked the crystal ball tonight......I see a BMW in your future......but keep your Road Glide so that when you start missing the personality and atmosphere you have it to fall back on. :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: SDCVO on April 30, 2018, 02:19:14 AM
I certainly understand the “panic” as I did the same thing. But if the bike was running properly (no overheating or power loss), I really suspect you may have simply checked the oil too soon afer shutdown. SB1450 states you need to let a warm engine idle for 2 minutes, then shutdown, then immediately check the oil level.No doubt there is "panic" involved here! though I didn't let it idle for a while, I did check it same way I was the day before and oil was always to top line on stick and I only went 150 miles before I saw it. I do know that on other new motors I have had (unfortunately quite a few) they have burned some oil until broke in and there is a thought in my head that maybe motor just burnt some oil (they used dino oil for break in) but still doesn't make sense that it wouldn't use any on Sat where I went 375 miles. I hope I am wrong.. I do trust this dealer and am confident they will at least figure out if it sumped or not so we will see
My guess is if you follow thise steps, you’ll find the oil level is back to normal based on your feedback that it ran well.
Post by: SDCVO on April 30, 2018, 02:26:04 AM
No doubt there is "panic" involved here! though I didn't let it idle for a while, I did check it same way I was the day before and oil was always to top line on stick and I only went 150 miles before I saw it. I do know that on other new motors I have had (unfortunately quite a few) they have burned some oil until broke in and there is a thought in my head that maybe motor just burnt some oil (they used dino oil for break in) but still doesn't make sense that it wouldn't use any on Sat where I went 375 miles. I hope I am wrong.. I do trust this dealer and am confident they will at least figure out if it sumped or not so we will seeIs strange that bake ran so well though. I went down a road close to my work that I went down last weekend when I tested out the BMW and I was "comparing" which most of you know what that means and no doubt I would have been able to tell then that it wasn't running strong. That is unless thats when it sumped because of me "comparing"..
Post by: grc on April 30, 2018, 09:01:35 AM
Btw, the "idle for two minutes before shutting down" thing is nothing new, those same instructions have been around for a very long time and I've mentioned them often in old threads talking about oil consumption and how to check oil levels, or how to ensure when changing oil that you've moved as much as possible back to the tank before draining. They would apply to pretty much any dry sump engine. HOWEVER, if you haven't been doing this in the past, and you're comparing the dipstick reading today with what it read yesterday after using the same shutdown method, I'd still think something is going on. Perhaps consumption, but if halfway down the stick means what I think it means, that's a lot of oil to consume in just 150 miles after not consuming any the the previous 375 miles.
If this is again the beginning of a sumping problem, I'm baffled by Harley's inability to fix this seemingly basic engine function issue. They have either given this project to some seriously unqualified personnel, or they know the root cause but don't want to spend what it would take to fix it properly so they just keep trying band-aids. Who knows.
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: KGB on May 01, 2018, 08:22:19 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Cvostu on May 01, 2018, 09:17:13 PM
Post by: KGB on May 01, 2018, 09:25:55 PM
makes me glad I kept my 16 with that good old most reliable 110. Stuart :2vrolijk_21:
X2
Post by: mark on May 02, 2018, 02:34:31 PM
Btw, the "idle for two minutes before shutting down" thing is nothing new, those same instructions have been around for a very long time and I've mentioned them often in old threads talking about oil consumption and how to check oil levels, or how to ensure when changing oil that you've moved as much as possible back to the tank before draining. They would apply to pretty much any dry sump engine. HOWEVER, if you haven't been doing this in the past, and you're comparing the dipstick reading today with what it read yesterday after using the same shutdown method, I'd still think something is going on. Perhaps consumption, but if halfway down the stick means what I think it means, that's a lot of oil to consume in just 150 miles after not consuming any the the previous 375 miles.Bingo. Limp the problem along, kicking the can down the road, and just repair what's brought to the service counter. Keep this up for two years and these bikes will be out of warranty...and more importantly to the MoCo, not their responsibility. I've got a hard time believing mechanical engineers haven't figured out the cause of the sumping. I know what's causing the absence of a recall...
If this is again the beginning of a sumping problem, I'm baffled by Harley's inability to fix this seemingly basic engine function issue. They have either given this project to some seriously unqualified personnel, or they know the root cause but don't want to spend what it would take to fix it properly so they just keep trying band-aids. Who knows.
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: Heatwave on May 02, 2018, 02:59:14 PM
Bingo. Limp the problem along, kicking the can down the road, and just repair what's brought to the service counter. Keep this up for two years and these bikes will be out of warranty...and more importantly to the MoCo, not their responsibility. I've got a hard time believing mechanical engineers haven't figured out the cause of the sumping. I know what's causing the absence of a recall...
Sad but obviously true!
Post by: J.D. on May 02, 2018, 03:03:06 PM
- Early twin cam chain tensioner failures and oil pump design(s)
- Later twin cam lifter failures and compensator design
Post by: mark on May 02, 2018, 08:26:23 PM
Post by: mslcpa on May 03, 2018, 09:34:24 AM
Test rode a new M8 and was impressed, but think I'll keep what I have. Sometimes the latest and greatest isn't necessarily the greatest.
Post by: SDCVO on May 03, 2018, 11:37:29 PM
I have to admit I absolutely tortured the dealer and even contacted a attorney about "next steps" if it had sumped again and yes I did tell the dealer I had done that..
It turns out that the LED dipstick was broke and it did use some oil Sat (and Sun Im sure) and if I would have manually checked the oil Sat I would have seen that and known it was normal as in about 600 miles motor used a bit over a half a quart.
Bottom line is I freaked out for nothing, bike is fine and I made a complete moron out of myself!
Of course the fact the biked sumped in the first place is still not ok but that doesn't change that I have made a bunch of peoples life miserable since last weekend (including my family..).
Good news, as of right now my bike is fine!
And yea, I got a new LED dipstick...
Post by: JCZ on May 04, 2018, 08:13:33 AM
Then go throw that LED dipstick in the trash.....where they all belong. I'm surprised they still sell enough of those to make it profitable to keep producing them. Seriously Alan, I'm going to sing the same tune that your tech sings to you.....get rid of it....it's only a stress creator. :nixweiss:
Then go out for a long ride......Rapid City is do-able! :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: ultrarider123 on May 04, 2018, 08:14:45 AM
OK, I have to "man up" and admit when I screwed up! I have been using the LED dipsticks on my bikes for years even though they constantly break and I am replacing them under warranty as they never last a year. My tech hates that I use it and has always told me to ditch it and check my oil manually. How they always break is by either not coming on or temp being off by about 100 degrees but the oil level has always been accurate. This is my 6th motor I have broke in in the last 4 years and each time when brand new I have used some oil during break in and after. Sometimes on our forum I will read about how some people will say they have never burned a drop of oil with their motor so when I checked my oil with the LED dipstick Sat night after going 375 miles and it said "high oil" which it says when it is completely full I just figured this motor was was going to be one of those motors that never used oil. On Sun when I only had gone for a couple of hours and when I stopped and only showed 1 bar on LED I manually checked the oil and it was down about halfway between add and full thats when I assumed it had sumped again. The one thing that didn't make sense was that the bike never lost power and I did run it very hard.
I have to admit I absolutely tortured the dealer and even contacted a attorney about "next steps" if it had sumped again and yes I did tell the dealer I had done that..
It turns out that the LED dipstick was broke and it did use some oil Sat (and Sun Im sure) and if I would have manually checked the oil Sat I would have seen that and known it was normal as in about 600 miles motor used a bit over a half a quart.
Bottom line is I freaked out for nothing, bike is fine and I made a complete moron out of myself!
Of course the fact the biked sumped in the first place is still not ok but that doesn't change that I have made a bunch of peoples life miserable since last weekend (including my family..).
Good news, as of right now my bike is fine!
And yea, I got a new LED dipstick...
Alan, you DO know the definition of insanity, right?... ;D
By the way, I dread clicking on this thread when I see you have made another post. Sorta like a train wreck in that you don't want to look but can't turn away. I'm always praying it's good news but that's not always the case. At least this rebuild is going well so far....we are all pulling for you, sir.
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on May 04, 2018, 08:51:49 AM
Post by: SDCVO on May 05, 2018, 11:03:11 PM
Ohh-though I did put another LED dipstick on since it was covered on warranty I promise I will never trust it again and will manually start checking my oil as I did today. I promise...
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on May 06, 2018, 08:46:26 AM
Post by: SDCVO on May 06, 2018, 09:24:41 PM
3rd motor this month-amazing!!
Not sure where this is going to go but Im sure you all are bored to death with this and must think i am exaggerating-I think I would if I were reading it. absolutely makes no sense, 16000 miles with zero issues then I cant get 1000 miles on it without scrambling the motor..
Im taking up knitting!
Post by: Heatwave on May 06, 2018, 09:31:33 PM
OK, I will stop torturing everyone with this thread and deal with it myself but unbelievably the bike sumped today! After last week maybe the "karma Gods" are paying me back but went about 100 miles today with bike running great, stopped to get a drink and when I took off huge loss of power. went about 5 miles and pulled over at a gas station and MANUALLY checked the oil and was barely touching the stick. I was about 30 miles from the dealer and said said screw it, I am going to try and make it there as most were highway miles. I could barely get on the freeway without getting run over as I couldn't get any speed going but finally got it up to about 70. The heat coming out the right side was crazy and it was smelling like it was burning up. All this is exactly what it did the first time which ended up melting entire motor so I thought "ohh well". What I had to stop at the light at the end of the offramp I could only get the bike up to about 10 mph the couple of miles to the dealer. When I stopped all the people outside were going "I think your bike is burning up" because of the smell.
3rd motor this month-amazing!!
Not sure where this is going to go but Im sure you all are bored to death with this and must think i am exaggerating-I think I would if I were reading it. absolutely makes no sense, 16000 miles with zero issues then I cant get 1000 miles on it without scrambling the motor..
Im taking up knitting!
Yep, full blown classic case of engine oil sumping.
Post by: Slyde on May 06, 2018, 09:57:15 PM
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Post by: JCZ on May 06, 2018, 10:08:42 PM
That new BMW is looking more and more inviting to me. Did you see Steve's last comment in that thread? He's going to make mods to make the bike more comfortable as well as work on flowing more air (header, exhaust, etc.). Hopefully he'll have a package for the BMW 1600 by end of summer. :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: SDCVO on May 06, 2018, 10:51:54 PM
You said it was running fine, then stopped for a drink and it was sumping when you started out again? That’s interesting, most sump while being driven, some driven hard some not. Is it possible for it to fill the cases while sitting? Maybe there’s a clue here, at least in your case.I was running it very hard up to a couple of miles before I stopped and then was stuck in traffic which was why I stopped
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Post by: SDCVO on May 06, 2018, 11:09:18 PM
If I didn't know you Alan, I would think you were exagerating. Man, I'm really sorry to hear this.....I was trying to be optimistic for you. Incredible!Yea I answered you back on that thread. Steve comes up with a couple of mods for that bike and it will be hard to pass up. With this going on with my bike I might not be able to wait. Other issue I have with it though is the lack of a TFT screen which they do have on some of their other models so I am hoping they will make that change on the 19's. Thinking since they brought out the 18's early last year that maybe they will be releasing the 19 soonish. I do love the sound of that Remus exhaust!
That new BMW is looking more and more inviting to me. Did you see Steve's last comment in that thread? He's going to make mods to make the bike more comfortable as well as work on flowing more air (header, exhaust, etc.). Hopefully he'll have a package for the BMW 1600 by end of summer. :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: Slyde on May 07, 2018, 12:16:15 AM
I was running it very hard up to a couple of miles before I stopped and then was stuck in traffic which was why I stoppedThanks for the clarification and sorry to hear of your troubles.
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Post by: bigsixman on May 07, 2018, 01:01:55 AM
We have been so paranoid about this M8 sumping issue that we have been checking the oil every time we stop and so far so good.
I cannot imagine what some people are going thru with their bikes sumping several times and engine replacements and the problem still persists.
I am keeping my fingers crossed that Harley gets a handle on this issue.
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on May 07, 2018, 08:29:51 AM
I'm scared to do any mods to my bike because of this.
Post by: grc on May 07, 2018, 08:33:06 AM
I wonder if Harley has done any testing to determine if perhaps way too much oil is being delivered to the heads and like the early Twin Cam prototypes the oil isn't draining down fast enough. On those engines the excess oil was overwhelming the breather system, and the "fix" was to limit the amount of oil going to the heads. That problem is what delayed the launch of the Twin Cam btw. Thinking about the circumstances in this latest case, the engine was running fine until it was shut down and allowed to sit, then when started some time later it was immediately apparent there was a problem. All that oil had to come from somewhere, and the only way I know of for that oil level in the sump to rise while the engine isn't running is due to the oil draining down from the heads.
Jerry
Post by: CVOStreetglide on May 07, 2018, 08:50:18 AM
They upgrade and exercise the M8 motor to its limits and to my knowledge none have ever reported a sumping problem.
Other Jerry
Post by: J.D. on May 07, 2018, 10:03:38 AM
1. I don't believe at this point anyone can say there is not a design flaw.
2. I don't believe that HD technical/engineering doesn't understand why these engines are sumping at this point.
3. Why has HD not recalled these bikes and repaired with a real solution, and not implemented said solution on production bikes moving forward?
Post by: KGB on May 07, 2018, 10:29:55 AM
With so many of these M8s sumping for so long now, I can't believe three things:
1. I don't believe at this point anyone can say there is not a design flaw.
2. I don't believe that HD technical/engineering doesn't understand why these engines are sumping at this point.
3. Why has HD not recalled these bikes and repaired with a real solution, and not implemented said solution on production bikes moving forward?
Well said! What are they waiting for? Someone pulling out in traffic and it quits running?
At the rate these are failing, it’s keeping the engine line busy
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Post by: J.D. on May 07, 2018, 11:25:29 AM
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1207961-my-theory-as-to-why-some-m8s-are-sumping-2.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1207961-my-theory-as-to-why-some-m8s-are-sumping-2.html)
Post by: mark on May 07, 2018, 09:57:06 PM
HD's M8 has had sumping issues for sometime. I have a hard time believing engineers haven't figured out why and issued a recall or stop sale, yet they proceed as if nothing is wrong. Cost to the MoCo is the only reason why this issue continues - all they have to do is limp this problem along until these bikes fall out of warranty.
Indian recently released their 116 Big Bore kit about March. They had a couple of 116 engine failures and immediately issued a stop sale to investigate the cause. The stop sale was scheduled to end this week, but has been extended to August. Although this had to cost them money, they seem to have taken the high road.
Post by: smkymtnboy on May 08, 2018, 08:35:43 PM
Here's a tale of two companies and how they respond to an engine problem:i rode a 116 c.i. at the panama beach rally chieftan elite.indian had a demo ride program for the rally. very powerful! they did tell us there were tuning issues so the bike is not available for re-sale.
HD's M8 has had sumping issues for sometime. I have a hard time believing engineers haven't figured out why and issued a recall or stop sale, yet they proceed as if nothing is wrong. Cost to the MoCo is the only reason why this issue continues - all they have to do is limp this problem along until these bikes fall out of warranty.
Indian recently released their 116 Big Bore kit about March. They had a couple of 116 engine failures and immediately issued a stop sale to investigate the cause. The stop sale was scheduled to end this week, but has been extended to August. Although this had to cost them money, they seem to have taken the high road.
Post by: Texas 103 on May 09, 2018, 10:38:50 AM
X2
X3 and gave it a shot of 117 steriods
Post by: Para Bellum on May 09, 2018, 03:32:16 PM
makes me glad I kept my 16 with that good old ALmost reliable 110. Stuart :2vrolijk_21:Fixed that for you. ;)
Post by: chinashop bull on May 12, 2018, 10:05:47 PM
OK, I will stop torturing everyone with this thread and deal with it myself but unbelievably the bike sumped today! After last week maybe the "karma Gods" are paying me back but went about 100 miles today with bike running great, stopped to get a drink and when I took off huge loss of power. went about 5 miles and pulled over at a gas station and MANUALLY checked the oil and was barely touching the stick. I was about 30 miles from the dealer and said said screw it, I am going to try and make it there as most were highway miles. I could barely get on the freeway without getting run over as I couldn't get any speed going but finally got it up to about 70. The heat coming out the right side was crazy and it was smelling like it was burning up. All this is exactly what it did the first time which ended up melting entire motor so I thought "ohh well". What I had to stop at the light at the end of the offramp I could only get the bike up to about 10 mph the couple of miles to the dealer. When I stopped all the people outside were going "I think your bike is burning up" because of the smell.
3rd motor this month-amazing!!
Not sure where this is going to go but Im sure you all are bored to death with this and must think i am exaggerating-I think I would if I were reading it. absolutely makes no sense, 16000 miles with zero issues then I cant get 1000 miles on it without scrambling the motor..
Im taking up knitting!
SDCVO,
I ride a 2017 114 CVO Stg 2 Streety. Mine has sumped twice. Both times after running for extended periods at over 90 in temps over 100. Both times it sumped I noticed a drastic drop in power. I immediately pulled up, idled for 2 minutes (as per the service bulletin) and checked the oil - which was very low on the stick. After the letting my bike cool for an hour, I was able to restart as if nothing had happened.
HD has now replaced my pump with the latest version. My dealer called me in to inspect the bike while they had it apart. No signs of heat damage.
After reading your story above about how you continued to ride yours after it was obviously sumping I can only conclude that you deliberately damaged your motor so forum members would feel sorry for you and to give yourself an excuse to buy the BMW. Maybe you suffer from Munchausen syndrome by proxy? At any rate, you best hope MOCO doesn't read these forums otherwise they might not honor your warranty.
Post by: SDCVO on May 13, 2018, 12:58:28 AM
SDCVO,Intresting take for sure.. Didn't keep riding after it sumped the first 2 times and no idiot lights ever came on the 3rd time (actual read oil pressure ok) so not sure the MOCO reading these threads would just be able to not honor my warranty. Happy to hear everyone feels sorry for me, makes it all better after all.
I ride a 2017 114 CVO Stg 2 Streety. Mine has sumped twice. Both times after running for extended periods at over 90 in temps over 100. Both times it sumped I noticed a drastic drop in power. I immediately pulled up, idled for 2 minutes (as per the service bulletin) and checked the oil - which was very low on the stick. After the letting my bike cool for an hour, I was able to restart as if nothing had happened.
HD has now replaced my pump with the latest version. My dealer called me in to inspect the bike while they had it apart. No signs of heat damage.
After reading your story above about how you continued to ride yours after it was obviously sumping I can only conclude that you deliberately damaged your motor so forum members would feel sorry for you and to give yourself an excuse to buy the BMW. Maybe you suffer from Munchausen syndrome by proxy? At any rate, you best hope MOCO doesn't read these forums otherwise they might not honor your warranty.
not sure I need an excuse to buy a BMW but if my wife gives me a hard time I will share your post with her.
Gotta go now, I hear my kid coughing...
Post by: chinashop bull on May 13, 2018, 01:20:01 AM
Intresting take for sure.. Didn't keep riding after it sumped the first 2 times and no idiot lights ever came on the 3rd time (actual read oil pressure ok) so not sure the MOCO reading these threads would just be able to not honor my warranty. Happy to hear everyone feels sorry for me, makes it all better after all.
not sure I need an excuse to buy a BMW but if my wife gives me a hard time I will share your post with her.
Gotta go now, I hear my kid coughing...
Good to see you took my post in the spirit intended.
I don't need excuses either. I do a lap of Australia every 2 years. Bought myself a GSA because I couldn't trust my CVO, especially on those days riding across the top of Australia. 200 miles between towns. No phone reception. 100 deg plus heat and all the boys want to run at 100 all day.
Post by: heyboom on May 14, 2018, 10:19:08 AM
Post by: Heatwave on May 14, 2018, 12:23:40 PM
I had the 2017 CVO Street Glide w/ the 114". I upgraded to the Stage IV 117". I put 1200 miles on it before it started to make some engine noise. I brought it to Great South HD and they took it in. Got permission from MoCo to tear engine down. They said the oil pump failed and took the crank out. They replaced the oil pump, crank, stator, lifters, rocker arm and rockers. I put 1000 miles on it and was heading on a 72 mile trip to the dealership with my buddies. They were behind me and started smelling an awful smell. When I stopped, I could smell it. I tried getting up to 70 mph on the interstate but it wouldn't hardly do it. You could hear the throttle body sucking but the motor had no power. Luckily was almost to dealer. They took it in and the mechanic said it sumped 3 quarts of oil! They took it apart again but couldn't find anything and put it back together. The service manager said that the MoCo told them that the Milwaukee 8 was NOT designed to run at higher RPMs for an extended period. WTF. I had a 117" motor that I can't drive! I was so ticked after spending all that money. I went to Thunder Beach and saw a 2018 Road Glide CVO with the 117". I lost my ass trading for it. I just got my 1000 miles on it and me an my buddies were heading to the house after a ride. Of course my buddy wanted to challenge me. After getting to 90 mph my bike flattened out and his 107 went by me. I had no power. Continued home and barely could pull the hill to my house. I checked the oil and the stick was dry! The new freakin factory 117" motor sumped again!! This is BS!. I called Great South and told them to come get this thing and fix it. I am so sick I don't know what to do. :worthless:
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Been down the exact same path last year on my 2017 CVO Limited. Sad to say, but I think you may be one of many owners to report similar problems with their M8 bikes as the riding season gets into full gear. I am on my 3rd Stage IV 117 (all costs covered by warranty) with the last one installed last week. So far it feels terrific and I'm hoping they have it finally figured out with "one off" cylinders, pistons and rings and the latest oil pump they installed. I have to save the difference with the Stage IV is just really terrific which is why I keep trying to get the MoCo to deliver on their "promise" and advertising for the Stage IV.
It really is addictive power and hard to go back to stock but its has to function as designed for the long haul. I wish you the best and hopefully they get you on a good path. Keep us informed.
Post by: havenolife on May 14, 2018, 12:25:54 PM
Post by: mark on May 14, 2018, 03:04:06 PM
I had the 2017 CVO Street Glide w/ the 114". I upgraded to the Stage IV 117". I put 1200 miles on it before it started to make some engine noise. I brought it to Great South HD and they took it in. Got permission from MoCo to tear engine down. They said the oil pump failed and took the crank out. They replaced the oil pump, crank, stator, lifters, rocker arm and rockers. I put 1000 miles on it and was heading on a 72 mile trip to the dealership with my buddies. They were behind me and started smelling an awful smell. When I stopped, I could smell it. I tried getting up to 70 mph on the interstate but it wouldn't hardly do it. You could hear the throttle body sucking but the motor had no power. Luckily was almost to dealer. They took it in and the mechanic said it sumped 3 quarts of oil! They took it apart again but couldn't find anything and put it back together. The service manager said that the MoCo told them that the Milwaukee 8 was NOT designed to run at higher RPMs for an extended period. WTF. I had a 117" motor that I can't drive! I was so ticked after spending all that money. I went to Thunder Beach and saw a 2018 Road Glide CVO with the 117". I lost my ass trading for it. I just got my 1000 miles on it and me an my buddies were heading to the house after a ride. Of course my buddy wanted to challenge me. After getting to 90 mph my bike flattened out and his 107 went by me. I had no power. Continued home and barely could pull the hill to my house. I checked the oil and the stick was dry! The new freakin factory 117" motor sumped again!! This is BS!. I called Great South and told them to come get this thing and fix it. I am so sick I don't know what to do. :worthless:
We feel your pain, brother. You buy a top-of-the-line product, which costs as much as a fully loaded pickup truck, and it basically isn't rideable or reliable. JM2C, but I suspect the MoCo can't address the real reason for M8 sumping because the fix would be too costly. Until proven wrong, I'm of the opinion they are trying to correct the root cause with Band-Aids, hoping one of their solutions can counter the true problem.
Post by: 08glide on May 14, 2018, 05:03:34 PM
I had the 2017 CVO Street Glide w/ the 114". I upgraded to the Stage IV 117". I went to Thunder Beach and saw a 2018 Road Glide CVO with the 117". I lost my ass trading for it.
I know I'm not the brightest light bulb on the shelf. but why would you trade a 2017 with M8 motor for a 2018 with M8 motor, knowing they're still having issues ? just asking? Me, as bad as I'd like a 114 or117, I'm staying away from the M8's until the MoCo resolves the sumping issue.
Post by: heyboom on May 14, 2018, 07:07:17 PM
Post by: Twolanerider on May 14, 2018, 07:24:08 PM
08Glide, I made the assumption that the problem with sumping was just w/ the stage III & IVs. Little did I know that it is the M8s!! I just heard that the 19s are supposed to have a new oiling system, not just a band-aid oil pump that does nothing to fix the problem. I probably need to start finding a consumer protection attorney wiling to take on the MoCo.
Source?
Post by: Fired00d on May 14, 2018, 07:30:24 PM
"Poolboy" of course.... or maybe it's "Mr. Kool-Aid" now. ::) :P :D :D
Source?
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Post by: heyboom on May 14, 2018, 08:05:09 PM
Post by: J.D. on May 14, 2018, 08:36:38 PM
Post by: Twolanerider on May 14, 2018, 09:33:42 PM
My buddy was at Sturgis and talked with the Harley rep and that is what the rep told him. Don't know if it is so, but I hope it is.
"Poolboy" of course.... or maybe it's "Mr. Kool-Aid" now. ::) :P :D :D
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Mr. Aid.... Oooohhhhhh. That's a primary source if ever there was one.
So someone told someone told someone to one of us who posted it online.
The PoolBoy (when he's not dead) is never going to be out of work. I remember the first time I met the PoolBoy. It was... well, made my special places tingle just being in the same space. At least I think it was him. Might have been Bad Howie.
Post by: RivRaptor on May 15, 2018, 01:22:51 AM
Post by: iski on May 15, 2018, 07:06:16 AM
Mr. Aid.... Oooohhhhhh. That's a primary source if ever there was one.
So someone told someone told someone to one of us who posted it online.
The PoolBoy (when he's not dead) is never going to be out of work. I remember the first time I met the PoolBoy. It was... well, made my special places tingle just being in the same space. At least I think it was him. Might have been Bad Howie.
Pshaw & shucks. We have avoided a
Bad Howie would have been a great addition to the mgt. of the MoCo's Warranty Dept. but somehow that never happened. Darn shame.
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on May 15, 2018, 08:19:16 AM
I know I'm not the brightest light bulb on the shelf. but why would you trade a 2017 with M8 motor for a 2018 with M8 motor, knowing they're still having issues ? just asking? Me, as bad as I'd like a 114 or117, I'm staying away from the M8's until the MoCo resolves the sumping issue.
I traded a 17 CVO Street Glide for an 18 CVO Road Glide. Put 21K on the 17 CVO SG, but was not a real fan of the Street glide, beautiful bike. Street glide is just not my preference. It was the first Street Glide I have ever owned. I went back to a CVO Road Glide, my 4th CVO RG. I like the RG much better What surprised me is the motor is stronger in the 18. Really did not think 3" would make a difference. The 18 has a different cam so that must be were the extra power comes from.
I was already on a bike with the possibility of dumping, bought it in Sept of 2016, long before any one heard of sumping.
Post by: grc on May 15, 2018, 08:39:32 AM
The Harley "reps" stationed at various events aren't necessarily technical people, but more often just marketing (sales) types. The same thing goes for most auto companies at the various auto shows btw. So I wouldn't take anything one of the folks in a manufacturer's booth at a show says as gospel.
IF they were to redesign the oiling system for 2019, that should make all the people dealing with multiple failures on their 2017/2018 bikes happy. Just imagine what your lawyer could do with that information when it comes time to sue the beejesus out of Harley for a full refund as well as punitive damages.
Jerry
Post by: RivRaptor on May 15, 2018, 10:45:21 AM
Post by: SDCVO on May 16, 2018, 12:18:52 AM
I traded a 17 CVO Street Glide for an 18 CVO Road Glide. Put 21K on the 17 CVO SG, but was not a real fan of the Street glide, beautiful bike. Street glide is just not my preference. It was the first Street Glide I have ever owned. I went back to a CVO Road Glide, my 4th CVO RG. I like the RG much better What surprised me is the motor is stronger in the 18. Really did not think 3" would make a difference. The 18 has a different cam so that must be were the extra power comes from.Dave, you and got our street glides at just about the same time. Crazy thing is i went 16,000 miles with zero issues and then 3 motors in 2 months. A complete head scratcher that no one can come up with a good answer for. Rep thinks I stated riding more aggressively which is simply not true. Of course I told him if I was riding crazy aggressively as in abusive as he was suggesting there would be obvious signs of that.
I was already on a bike with the possibility of dumping, bought it in Sept of 2016, long before any one heard of sumping.
Maybe you switching bikes when you did you dodged a bullet? I guess that doesn’t really make sense either since I have been reading same stories of the 18’s.
Whatever is going on with these M8’s, not good!
Post by: happyman on May 16, 2018, 01:12:05 AM
Dave, you and got our street glides at just about the same time. Crazy thing is i went 16,000 miles with zero issues and then 3 motors in 2 months. A complete head scratcher that no one can come up with a good answer for. Rep thinks I stated riding more aggressively which is simply not true. Of course I told him if I was riding crazy aggressively as in abusive as he was suggesting there would be obvious signs of that.I know the feeling. and it is not good when we see no fix in sight.
Maybe you switching bikes when you did you dodged a bullet? I guess that doesn’t really make sense either since I have been reading same stories of the 18’s.
Whatever is going on with these M8’s, not good!
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on May 16, 2018, 08:54:57 AM
Dave, you and got our street glides at just about the same time. Crazy thing is i went 16,000 miles with zero issues and then 3 motors in 2 months. A complete head scratcher that no one can come up with a good answer for. Rep thinks I stated riding more aggressively which is simply not true. Of course I told him if I was riding crazy aggressively as in abusive as he was suggesting there would be obvious signs of that.
Maybe you switching bikes when you did you dodged a bullet? I guess that doesn’t really make sense either since I have been reading same stories of the 18’s.
Whatever is going on with these M8’s, not good!
I fully agree. Way to many have summed. Never had an issue with the 17, and put 21K on it. I ride it hard, but do not abuse it. My bikes draw top dollar at a year or two old with high miles. I doubt you ride banging on your rev limiter. I know I ride 2500 to 4000 rpm most the time, and higher some times. 300 miles is a day ride in the twisties, and I run the curves fairly hard. I have also done long days at 80 mph on the interstate.
The new 18 CVO RG, I did a SS1000 in 16 hours, took a nap and finished the BB1500 in 33 hours. Cruise at 80 mph the whole time. Ran home from Daytona a bit over 600 miles all two lane, lots twisty mountain roads. No issue.
That said I worry it will sump. Main reason I have not done a 124 kit on it. I do have a complete fullsac exhaust, TTS tuner and a good dyno tune.
It really sucks the issues you have had Alan. So the screen name was just a one day change?
Post by: SDCVO on May 17, 2018, 01:08:55 AM
I fully agree. Way to many have summed. Never had an issue with the 17, and put 21K on it. I ride it hard, but do not abuse it. My bikes draw top dollar at a year or two old with high miles. I doubt you ride banging on your rev limiter. I know I ride 2500 to 4000 rpm most the time, and higher some times. 300 miles is a day ride in the twisties, and I run the curves fairly hard. I have also done long days at 80 mph on the interstate.The last 2 motors I did not run over 4000 rpm as I never made it over the 1000 mile break in with either. 2nd motor I was on the freeway doing right around 75 mph, 3rd motor I was on backroads so who knows.
The new 18 CVO RG, I did a SS1000 in 16 hours, took a nap and finished the BB1500 in 33 hours. Cruise at 80 mph the whole time. Ran home from Daytona a bit over 600 miles all two lane, lots twisty mountain roads. No issue.
That said I worry it will sump. Main reason I have not done a 124 kit on it. I do have a complete fullsac exhaust, TTS tuner and a good dyno tune.
It really sucks the issues you have had Alan. So the screen name was just a one day change?
Not sure what i was doing with the screen names but I fixed it..
I did switch my photo to my 12 Roadglide! Thankfully that bike is running great! Of course it doesn't have a Harley motor, juzsaying..
Post by: happyman on May 17, 2018, 06:31:44 PM
As I posted a couple of months ago bike sumped and I melted the motor. Harley replaced entire motor and stage 4 and I got it back a few weeks ago. For the first time ever I made myself "play by the rules" and break it in exactly like the dealer told me not going past 3000 rpm's for the first 250 miles, change oil at 500 miles and then not over 4000 RPM's until 1000 miles. Last Saturday I put the last 400 miles on to complete the 1000 mile break in and stopped at the gas station a couple of miles from my house to fill up so I would be ready to roll tomorrow morning and when I took off from the station bike fell on its face and I knew I was screwed. Got home and oil barely registered on the stick. got to dealer Wed and they called me yesterday to tell me bike sumped again!its not fun to have happen what your also experiencing
I am so frustrated I cant think straight!
Before I got this bike Oct 2016 I went and rode many different bikes trying to find something other than another Harley since I still have my 12 CVO Roadglide but i just couldn't find anything else that I really liked though obviously now I wish I would have.
I was so proud of myself when I pulled into that gas station knowing I was done breaking it in and that I actually never "ripped" the throttle and broke it in easy-how ironic..
Really not sure where to go from here but this is getting very close to the definition of insanity!
Post by: happyman on May 17, 2018, 10:32:39 PM
You said it was running fine, then stopped for a drink and it was sumping when you started out again? That’s interesting, most sump while being driven, some driven hard some not. Is it possible for it to fill the cases while sitting? Maybe there’s a clue here, at least in your case.what is driven yard . curious here/
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Post by: SDCVO on May 17, 2018, 10:51:55 PM
what is driven yard . curious here/Stilll was under 1000 miles so not like I would normally ride. Still was staying under 4000 or very close to. Just wasn't "babying it". I did that (babied it) the 2nd motor and it didn't make 1000 miles either.
Post by: Unbalanced on May 18, 2018, 04:13:00 PM
Post by: happyman on May 18, 2018, 07:41:36 PM
With everyone looking at the oil pump, anyone considering it could be the counter balancers or combination of the two causing the issues and the oil pump is just the scapegoat? Be interesting to see how these conversions with no counter balance make out.
the balancer is just more bs stiring and causing the air bubbles in the sump, and causing all kinds heat along with perhaps different metals expanding at much different rats and then we may have a potential of tiny holes or cracks where no one is looking magnaflux may be the only way to witness this and its very expensive. but then again that alone is not going to solve the issues in its self. I have to think . larger cases and other changes to pumps, and positions of oil flow are all suspect have to think what the heck is HD tryin g to do to its people who have been great customers for many years and those who have been on board for only 20 years. need to see a fix at any cost, or there may be some very serious results of handing out band aides till your bike is out of warranty , that is going to end it all. pay me now, or pay me later. keep your eye on the little birdie cause its sly and quick.
Post by: happyman on May 18, 2018, 09:36:21 PM
With everyone looking at the oil pump, anyone considering it could be the counter balancers or combination of the two causing the issues and the oil pump is just the scapegoat? Be interesting to see how these conversions with no counter balance make out.
Post by: Pan1 on May 22, 2018, 09:39:12 PM
Thanks
Post by: Para Bellum on May 22, 2018, 10:03:52 PM
I am thinking of trading my 2015 CVO RG which has been upgraded with the HD 117 kit on a 2019 hopefully CVO RG. I test rode a stock 107 M8 last year and was very impressed. How bad is this sumping issue? Does anyone know the percentage of CVO M-8's with the problem?The MoCo might have some of those numbers, but since the sumping seems to depend on a set of circumstances and/or conditions, those numbers really aren't meaningful...right now, it appears the sumping can occur with any M8 engine if the situation/condition arises.
Thanks
If it turns out the oil return port in the crankcase is located where it can't quickly enough return all the oil to the system, MoCo is not going to be able to fix it with a band-aid.
Post by: Slyde on May 22, 2018, 11:14:06 PM
what is driven yard . curious here/Sorry, just saw your post/question. I thought I remembered a few sumping issues that arose after being ran down the highway at high speeds for longer periods, 90-100. And a couple running higher rpm through canyon roads. Now before you say they should be able to do that, I agree they should. It was just an observation.
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Post by: happyman on May 22, 2018, 11:56:29 PM
Sorry, just saw your post/question. I thought I remembered a few sumping issues that arose after being ran down the highway at high speeds for longer periods, 90-100. And a couple running higher rpm through canyon roads. Now before you say they should be able to do that, I agree they should. It was just an observation.for a fact ytou do not need to be running them hard to make the sumping issue happen. have seen it a cruise set a 70 mph steady , just run it for 70 to 100 miles , its happening under those circumstances. runing that at 9- to 100 will surley make it happen sooner. now how bout the fact of the matter just put it on the table and start it run it for maybe a couple minutes or three if you like pull the sensor. have seen a quart of oil drain out on each occasion. this is what someone needs to correct, must be an expensive fix cause have not seen any thing to date that is curing this . so everyone with one of these bikes is never going to see a real fix cause it seems just give you some parts to get you through the warranty and your on your own is what we can hope is ion store for everyone who has issues and those who are going to have the same issues. that should boost sales for sure. sad part is the people cannot afford to be paying for this fix. all the downtime involved, along with the frustration and expense incurred in owning one of these bikes that continue to see problems. let alone you dare not try to actually even think of a trip cause the odds are not good you can get the bike home. lot of people depend on HD to correct this so they can remain in business, keep there jobs and livelyhood. lets hope they make this right. one way or another. amazing how some bike's have no issues for many miles and all of a sudden they toast a few motors in few miles and time. the riding season is over and you dare not to go with your group on a nice ride of any distance . its sad to say the least. we have to hope the fix or getting compensated totally is on the horizon. this is something that people need made whole on.
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Post by: 09nessrg on May 23, 2018, 01:02:35 AM
Anybody had an 2018 CVO Limited 117 engine sump?
Any 107 sump?
Post by: Heatwave on May 23, 2018, 08:12:34 AM
Is it my imagination or is just engines that went from 114 to 117 upgrade "sumping"?
Anybody had an 2018 CVO Limited 117 engine sump?
Any 107 sump?
Nope, over on HDforums there are stock 107s, upgraded 107s, stock 114s, upgraded 114s, stock 117s, upgraded 117s including 2018 Softails. No common thread other they are 2017 or 2018 Milwaukee 8 engines. Some M8s sump after a few hundred miles. Some appear to have taken up to 10,000 miles to be in the right conditions to sump. Which is exactly what SB1450 states.
Post by: bigsixman on May 23, 2018, 02:14:56 PM
He said that they have had two total 2017 or 2018 M8 bikes in their shop for sumping issues and 1 was a stage 3 and the other was a stage 4 bike. I do not know the real extent of the sumping problem, but it sure isn't affecting all the M8 bikes assuming the info is correct.
I have 600 miles on my holdover 2017 SGS and the oil level is still where it should be and my friend's identical bike with 800 miles is still ok.
I really wonder how big the sumping problem is on the 2017 and 2018 M8 production bikes. It certainly has affected some of our forum members severely by reading their posts. I would think that the ESP warranty people would be watching this issue very closely because the problem is coming their way.
Post by: Slyde on May 23, 2018, 04:38:08 PM
for a fact ytou do not need to be running them hard to make the sumping issue happen. have seen it a cruise set a 70 mph steady , just run it for 70 to 100 miles , its happening under those circumstances. runing that at 9- to 100 will surley make it happen sooner. now how bout the fact of the matter just put it on the table and start it run it for maybe a couple minutes or three if you like pull the sensor. have seen a quart of oil drain out on each occasion. this is what someone needs to correct, must be an expensive fix cause have not seen any thing to date that is curing this . so everyone with one of these bikes is never going to see a real fix cause it seems just give you some parts to get you through the warranty and your on your own is what we can hope is ion store for everyone who has issues and those who are going to have the same issues. that should boost sales for sure. sad part is the people cannot afford to be paying for this fix. all the downtime involved, along with the frustration and expense incurred in owning one of these bikes that continue to see problems. let alone you dare not try to actually even think of a trip cause the odds are not good you can get the bike home. lot of people depend on HD to correct this so they can remain in business, keep there jobs and livelyhood. lets hope they make this right. one way or another. amazing how some bike's have no issues for many miles and all of a sudden they toast a few motors in few miles and time. the riding season is over and you dare not to go with your group on a nice ride of any distance . its sad to say the least. we have to hope the fix or getting compensated totally is on the horizon. this is something that people need made whole on.I didn’t go back and look but I thought I said some ran hard some not. I get it...
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Post by: NH Bulldog on May 23, 2018, 05:49:36 PM
Post by: fastfreddy on May 23, 2018, 06:00:34 PM
Post by: iski on May 23, 2018, 09:52:40 PM
::)
Post by: Para Bellum on May 23, 2018, 10:07:13 PM
I have been reading the threads and posts concerning sumping issues with the M8 motor. I had business at my local HD dealer yesterday and I asked a trusted employee at the dealership how many M8 sumping issues that they have dealt with.The problem with information like this is that it's just a small slice of what's happening. If you combine this dealer's info with what we see here and on other sites, it gives us the big picture.
He said that they have had two total 2017 or 2018 M8 bikes in their shop for sumping issues and 1 was a stage 3 and the other was a stage 4 bike. I do not know the real extent of the sumping problem, but it sure isn't affecting all the M8 bikes assuming the info is correct.
I have 600 miles on my holdover 2017 SGS and the oil level is still where it should be and my friend's identical bike with 800 miles is still ok.
I really wonder how big the sumping problem is on the 2017 and 2018 M8 production bikes. It certainly has affected some of our forum members severely by reading their posts. I would think that the ESP warranty people would be watching this issue very closely because the problem is coming their way.
For discussion purposes: What if it can happen to any M8, but the people who have Stage 3 or 4 kits more often run the bikes in a way that causes sumping? That's actually worse news for all M8 owners---it means those who don't run it hard enough, early enough, might have the sumping and damage occur after the warranty expires. If Harley stays true to the previous CEO's approach, they probably aren't going to step up voluntarily. It will be on the individual's dime to fix it, unless enough of the M8s burn up to force a recall (aka "product improvement") like happened with the early 110.
As much as I hate to ask (given the passion people have for their lubricants), I am just curious as to what types/brands motor oil people are running that have experienced the sumping?If truth be known, I bet a lot of them are running Syn3...b/c they're coming straight out of rebuild or replacement at the dealer. But I don't think it's caused by the type of oil.
Post by: grc on May 24, 2018, 08:26:31 AM
As much as I hate to ask (given the passion people have for their lubricants), I am just curious as to what types/brands motor oil people are running that have experienced the sumping?
Please don't give H-D any more ideas on things they can use to deflect blame for THEIR problem. They've already tried to tell people they are running the bikes "too hard" and it's caused by their riding style.
Jerry
Post by: NH Bulldog on May 24, 2018, 11:05:55 AM
There are many people on this site (and others) who also have other performance vehicles that DON'T run stock oil, stock filters, stock anything. You make performance mods and you make adjustments to your lubricants, fuel, tuning, oil/transmission coolers, etc. to achieve the desire performance. It comes with the territory. I am not saying it is right or just.
I understand that given the issues, people want to keep it as HD as possible, so when (not if) the failures occur, it can be laid on HD and we can hold them responsible. My point in asking about oil in the first place is similar to the water pump issue that some have experienced (HD coolant gums up the magnetic drive impeller, but better coolant alternatives have been identified). If there is a better fluids option for those of us who have NOT had the issue, then maybe we should talk about it.
So for anyone who has had the Stage 3 or 4 modification and NOT had a sumping issue (I know you are out there), do you run factory fluids or some alternative lubricants?
Post by: Para Bellum on May 24, 2018, 11:33:58 AM
So for anyone who has had the Stage 3 or 4 modification and NOT had a sumping issue (I know you are out there), do you run factory fluids or some alternative lubricants?All of the M8s that sumped have at least two things in common: They all used gasoline and air. Hey! Maybe that's what caused it!
Just kidding, but to say that "most of the 'sumpers' used Syn3, so that must be the problem," doesn't pass the sniff test.
Yes, it is MoCo's problem, but pointing at every component/fluid the M8s share doesn't lead to a solution.
BTW, I haven't had sumping and I don't use Syn3...but that's not the solution to sumping.
Post by: Heatwave on May 24, 2018, 11:56:33 AM
Not trying to stir things up, but if folks are running Syn3 and this happening using HD oil then it IS an HD issue. Their motor, their oil, their oil pump = their problem.
There are many people on this site (and others) who also have other performance vehicles that DON'T run stock oil, stock filters, stock anything. You make performance mods and you make adjustments to your lubricants, fuel, tuning, oil/transmission coolers, etc. to achieve the desire performance. It comes with the territory. I am not saying it is right or just.
I understand that given the issues, people want to keep it as HD as possible, so when (not if) the failures occur, it can be laid on HD and we can hold them responsible. My point in asking about oil in the first place is similar to the water pump issue that some have experienced (HD coolant gums up the magnetic drive impeller, but better coolant alternatives have been identified). If there is a better fluids option for those of us who have NOT had the issue, then maybe we should talk about it.
So for anyone who has had the Stage 3 or 4 modification and NOT had a sumping issue (I know you are out there), do you run factory fluids or some alternative lubricants?
Just plain dumb. There’s millions of TC Harleys running Syn3 without sumping. Let me guess, you’re an Amway distributor??
Post by: NH Bulldog on May 24, 2018, 12:04:10 PM
Changing the oil pump to a different model obviously didn't fix the issue. That tells me that there is a design flaw in the oil system (oil passages, ports, filter, cooler, bypass, etc.) that restricts or limits oil flow coming out of the pump, and that no amount of pump changes are going to fix it, because the flow is physically limited by the design of the motor itself.
Post by: Heatwave on May 24, 2018, 12:08:57 PM
I think the oil is a symptom, not the problem. So until the problem is corrected, maybe we can manage one of the symptoms? By that I mean; is there an oil more resistant to breakdown and foaming while still maintaining viscosity and protection under severe service conditions that these (even stock) motors produce? There are enough gear-heads on here that someone has to have some experience with a high performance racing-type oil that might fit the bill.
Changing the oil pump to a different model obviously didn't fix the issue. That tells me that there is a design flaw in the oil system (oil passages, ports, filter, cooler, bypass, etc.) that restricts or limits oil flow coming out of the pump, and that no amount of pump changes are going to fix it, because the flow is physically limited by the design of the motor itself.
I’m not aware of any date suggesting oil viscocity or foaming have any thing to do with sumping. A few have hypothesized but thinking changing oil brands or even oil type is a fools errand.
Post by: Para Bellum on May 24, 2018, 12:14:44 PM
I think the oil is a symptom, not the problem. So until the problem is corrected, maybe we can manage one of the symptoms? By that I mean; is there an oil more resistant to breakdown and foaming while still maintaining viscosity and protection under severe service conditions that these (even stock) motors produce? There are enough gear-heads on here that someone has to have some experience with a high performance racing-type oil that might fit the bill.Even an oil that doesn't foam at all, no matter how much it's whipped by the crank, will still cause problems if it's in the crankcase...the oil will still resist the crank rotation, and the rest of the engine will still be starved for oil.
Changing the oil pump to a different model obviously didn't fix the issue. That tells me that there is a design flaw in the oil system (oil passages, ports, filter, cooler, bypass, etc.) that restricts or limits oil flow coming out of the pump, and that no amount of pump changes are going to fix it, because the flow is physically limited by the design of the motor itself.
As you said, a design flaw that prevents return of the oil to the system is not going to be fixed by using a different oil.
Post by: NH Bulldog on May 24, 2018, 12:14:56 PM
For the record, I have always used Syn3, even in the 100% air-cooled 2007 TC 96 and 2012 TC 110 on which I towed a trailer and put nearly 100,000 miles on between the two. I have never had a motor issue, or sumping, or anything of that nature.
Post by: iski on May 24, 2018, 12:18:04 PM
I’m not aware of any date suggesting oil viscocity or foaming have any thing to do with sumping. A few have hypothesized but thinking changing oil brands or even oil type is a fools errand.
Suppose this means Harley will not attempt to market SFSyn3 (Sump Free Syn3) & Genuine HD No Sump Oil Filters that could be in development already.
Post by: Rooster on May 24, 2018, 01:28:58 PM
Post by: skiindean on May 24, 2018, 05:36:42 PM
http://www.feulingparts.com/products...r%20Drive/7097
Post by: happyman on May 24, 2018, 06:01:41 PM
Actually, I've seen several reports of multiple failures with the same bike with new engines and the latest design oil pump. If the dealers were just repairing the existing engine it would be easy (and often accurate) to blame poor workmanship. But when Harley ships a brand new engine to the dealership and all they do is bolt it into the frame, and that one also fails, that tells me in no uncertain terms that H-D has no clue. Btw, there have been more than a few reports of sumping with bone stock M8's, standard as well as CVO models, so this isn't just a Stage IV kit issue or just an oil pump issue. They need to learn how to find the root cause of their many issues, instead of carrying on their tradition of throwing band-aids at things to try to slide by.I for one have had several failures . nothing works but then why would it ..
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: grc on May 24, 2018, 07:08:22 PM
Is anyone familiar with Feuling part # 7097 race series oil pump system. Just ordered one today for the sumping issue. These guys knew the problem before I described it and said they have the fix. Not cheap at $1199 but a lot cheaper thank regular breakdowns and Harley not having an oil pump remedy. Back ordered for 2 weeks, I’ll let everyone know if it fixes our pump issue once I get the bike back in a few weeks. btw, I use RedLine throughout. Thoughts?
http://www.feulingparts.com/products...r%20Drive/7097
I sure hope you got that in writing along with a full money back guarantee. The odds are quite good that this issue isn't an oil pump issue, but rather something more complex. Harley has already tried several different oil pumps, and none has fixed the problem. Once you install those aftermarket parts you will give Harley an easy out if the engine fails.
Jerry
Post by: Twolanerider on May 24, 2018, 07:27:32 PM
Is anyone familiar with Feuling part # 7097 race series oil pump system. Just ordered one today for the sumping issue. These guys knew the problem before I described it and said they have the fix. Not cheap at $1199 but a lot cheaper thank regular breakdowns and Harley not having an oil pump remedy. Back ordered for 2 weeks, I’ll let everyone know if it fixes our pump issue once I get the bike back in a few weeks. btw, I use RedLine throughout. Thoughts?
http://www.feulingparts.com/products...r%20Drive/7097
There is absolutely zero chance I would install anything aftermarket inside an M8 right now. The sumping issue is very likely not to be simply a pump issue or an issue solely of parts that simply bolt inside the cam chest. Do Feuling or anything else aftermarket and you've given Mother Harley all the pretext she need to wash her hands of you for all upcoming failures.
I can understand the desire to want to "fix it" and do it now. Landing fixation is a bitch. Going aftermarket right now, however, is just all too likely premature reparation.
Post by: Twolanerider on May 24, 2018, 07:28:39 PM
I sure hope you got that in writing along with a full money back guarantee. The odds are quite good that this issue isn't an oil pump issue, but rather something more complex. Harley has already tried several different oil pumps, and none has fixed the problem. Once you install those aftermarket parts you will give Harley an easy out if the engine fails.
Jerry
Yeah, what Jerry said ^ .
After all this time I still haven't learned to read to the end of a thread before typing..... :drink:
Post by: sadunbar on May 24, 2018, 10:01:40 PM
Yeah, what Jerry said ^ .
After all this time I still haven't learned to read to the end of a thread before typing..... :drink:
I had exactly the same thought process as you and Jerry, but was to lazy to type the response... It's unfortunate that the MOCO cannot deliver a reliable motor, and also looks for every opportunity to walk away from a customer. Kind of like lifters, compensators, etc. and etc. Yep, still do not ever see new MOCO bike in my future - ever...
Post by: SDCVO on May 25, 2018, 12:56:37 AM
I think the oil is a symptom, not the problem. So until the problem is corrected, maybe we can manage one of the symptoms? By that I mean; is there an oil more resistant to breakdown and foaming while still maintaining viscosity and protection under severe service conditions that these (even stock) motors produce? There are enough gear-heads on here that someone has to have some experience with a high performance racing-type oil that might fit the bill.Just as a FYI, when Harley sent the cylinders and pistons to the machine shop for the "one off, super secret" guaranteed fix for the 3rd motor they put in dino oil for the break in and even put it back in after the 500 mile break in service saying they wanted me to run it to 2500 miles (didn't make it) and then they would go back to the syn. Oil certainly didn't make any difference
Changing the oil pump to a different model obviously didn't fix the issue. That tells me that there is a design flaw in the oil system (oil passages, ports, filter, cooler, bypass, etc.) that restricts or limits oil flow coming out of the pump, and that no amount of pump changes are going to fix it, because the flow is physically limited by the design of the motor itself.
Post by: happyman on May 25, 2018, 09:25:42 AM
Just as a FYI, when Harley sent the cylinders and pistons to the machine shop for the "one off, super secret" guaranteed fix for the 3rd motor they put in dino oil for the break in and even put it back in after the 500 mile break in service saying they wanted me to run it to 2500 miles (didn't make it) and then they would go back to the syn. Oil certainly didn't make any difference
uupper been that route. was a failure. got to wonder about the materials used in the cylinder or the procedure used.
Post by: Pan1 on May 27, 2018, 01:13:03 AM
1- too much oil pump volume
2- drain back passages too small
3- the vent system is getting blocked which prents the oul from properly flowing back into the pan. Similar to draining the oil without opening the dipstick
Post by: happyman on May 27, 2018, 09:57:02 AM
While i not own an M8 it seems to me the way the engine could sump would either be:too much volume the wrong way not enough volume in the cases and they many need some looking at to see if all the sharp turns and all the oil below the sensor drain is part of it or a reason for part of it. the vents in the heads are something I question but then I am far from an expert . one thing I am, is a vey unhappy customer. right this minute my bike is getting or has got a new motor installed. it will be the 117" and its all what they call EPA to the max again as usual. for me with these M8. will have the street cannon muffs being it had a stage 4 kit it will utilize the SE TB also. hope they fixed it so the next owner can ride off into the sunset and enjoy it. will never ride the bike again. will be sold for several reasons and one of them is old age and then the weight of these bike kinda enters into the picture anymore too. hope HD has the cure on this build.if so I will be looking at another bike maybe the 19.
1- too much oil pump volume
2- drain back passages too small
3- the vent system is getting blocked which prents the oul from properly flowing back into the pan. Similar to draining the oil without opening the dipstick
Post by: Twolanerider on May 27, 2018, 12:46:50 PM
too much volume the wrong way not enough volume in the cases and they many need some looking at to see if all the sharp turns and all the oil below the sensor drain is part of it or a reason for part of it. the vents in the heads are something I question but then I am far from an expert . one thing I am, is a vey unhappy customer. right this minute my bike is getting or has got a new motor installed. it will be the 117" and its all what they call EPA to the max again as usual. for me with these M8. will have the street cannon muffs being it had a stage 4 kit it will utilize the SE TB also. hope they fixed it so the next owner can ride off into the sunset and enjoy it. will never ride the bike again. will be sold for several reasons and one of them is old age and then the weight of these bike kinda enters into the picture anymore too. hope HD has the cure on this build.if so I will be looking at another bike maybe the 19.
Harley?
After all this immediately looking to give Harley Davidson your money all over again?
Post by: grc on May 27, 2018, 04:18:20 PM
Harley?
After all this immediately looking to give Harley Davidson your money all over again?
Harley has been making money hand over fist for decades selling new ones to guys who traded their old ones due to major problems. Once the Boomers are all gone that scenario will likely fade away as well. Brand loyalty isn't exactly a thing with the most recent couple of generations.
Jerry
Post by: Fired00d on May 27, 2018, 04:36:44 PM
Harley has been making money hand over fist for decades selling new ones to guys who traded their old ones due to major problems. Once the Boomers are all gone that scenario will likely fade away as well. Brand loyalty isn't exactly a thing with the most recent couple of generations."Or wiser, get tired of getting screwed w/o getting kissed, or just totally fed up w/the BS".
Jerry
Trust and believe each and every time I get on my H-D a smile comes on my face and I get reminded of why I wanted/purchased one in the first place, however that feeling isn't to the extreme that I would want to get taken advantage of (purchase a new<er> bike than what I have). Maybe I'm older (wiser?? :nixweiss:) or that I'm now the "old guy" on the block that doesn't want all the young kids running on his lawn (I'm sure we all remember that neighbor as youngsters :D) but I just can't see going back to "the well" only to get "poisoned" (have to fix/replace OEM flaws). :( >:( Add to that nothing has given me the "I got to have it" feeling that my current bike did when I first saw it.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Post by: happyman on May 27, 2018, 05:03:54 PM
lot of if ands or buts to get me there the word maybe was used and that covers it. I have had way more than any one should ever have to tolerate without getting all the $$$ invested back in full and the other expenses but that seems to not be the case so you can say I have been run off. the time alone and the $$$ involved for me is unacceptable with no end in sight that I am aware off.
Harley?
After all this immediately looking to give Harley Davidson your money all over again?
$$$ , frustration and not able to do anything but ride around a small area is a huge bummer. has cost me a lot of good riding and its going to all end . if HD can show where there is an actual fix for what I believe is multiple issues then as said maybe, at my age will not be holding my breath, to be real honest.
Post by: skiindean on May 28, 2018, 01:23:49 AM
I sure hope you got that in writing along with a full money back guarantee. The odds are quite good that this issue isn't an oil pump issue, but rather something more complex. Harley has already tried several different oil pumps, and none has fixed the problem. Once you install those aftermarket parts you will give Harley an easy out if the engine fails.
Jerry
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 12, 2018, 12:57:23 PM
Post by: skiindean on June 12, 2018, 01:22:03 PM
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 12, 2018, 01:45:50 PM
Post by: nvelez2017 on June 12, 2018, 02:16:22 PM
After reading through this post, I am almost regretting buying the 2018, I had not heard anything but good about the m8 until now. Afraid to take a long road trip now.I'm with you on this. I'm taking a 1400M trip to Sturgis and hope I don't run into any issues.
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 12, 2018, 02:25:04 PM
Post by: kojak on June 12, 2018, 06:03:04 PM
I'm with you on this. I'm taking a 1400M trip to Sturgis and hope I don't run into any issues.I've taken a 3000 mile trip and a 1800 mile trip with no issues, ran like a dream.
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 12, 2018, 08:03:32 PM
Post by: bigC on June 12, 2018, 08:31:11 PM
Clay
Post by: Bumpandrun on June 12, 2018, 09:49:14 PM
Post by: SDCVO on June 12, 2018, 11:29:13 PM
Post by: chinashop bull on June 12, 2018, 11:32:18 PM
Im wondering if the ones failing have a common factor. Is there a certain point that they are failing? Anyone have one with over 20000 mis with no issues? Is it related to extended periods over 3000 rpm? Etc...
There is a common factor. Usually the same 2 riders. :)
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 13, 2018, 06:58:09 AM
Post by: grc on June 13, 2018, 08:58:21 AM
How am I seeing 17k,32k and one 56k miles in 2017 limiteds ? Is it just the big motor CVOs having issues ? Or modded ones..... Not being a wise ass as I don't know.
If you check other forums that include all Harley models you'll find that sumping has been an issue with any of the M8 variants including the 107. It isn't just a 114 or 117 issue. At some point Harley will stumble across the real root cause and make changes in production to finally fix the problem. Unless that change is something that can be done easily and cheaply to existing bikes, I tend to doubt they will offer to apply it to all the M8's currently in customer's hands.
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: oe542bob on June 13, 2018, 09:22:01 AM
After reading through this post, I am almost regretting buying the 2018, I had not heard anything but good about the m8 until now. Afraid to take a long road trip now.I am having the same feelings. Haven’t had time to ride since I bought my CVO Streetglide last year. So it hasn’t sumped sitting in my garage! Recently called the selling dealership and asked about sumping. Didn’t know the service writer whom I talked to, but said they have not had this issue. Ok. So, I called again the following week and talked to a friend that is the service manager there. I do trust his opinion. He also said this has not been an issue in regards to sumping.
Although I do feel a little better, I am still concerned.
Maybe for the 125th anniversary, it’ll all be figured out!!
Post by: Rooster on June 13, 2018, 09:36:08 AM
Post by: Rooster on June 13, 2018, 09:38:27 AM
Post by: Bumpandrun on June 13, 2018, 09:45:21 AM
Screw it, can't live in fear, I'm just gonna ride it, if it gernades, it gernades, I have a two year warrenty, hopefully by then there will have been a fix identified. or if out of warranty, Ill buy an S&S motor for it.kinda with you on this one .....sure as hell won't be worrying about it. if it does let go it's gonna be big.....😂 Not new to the MOCO screw ups over the years . Wish I had a m8 in my hands a part as dry sump motors are something in racing we played with a ton. Wonder if it's really sumping or if that's just a term the MOCO is using for blow ups. Haven't seen the insides of a motor posted yet....
Post by: Bumpandrun on June 13, 2018, 09:47:55 AM
I am having the same feelings. Haven’t had time to ride since I bought my CVO Streetglide last year. So it hasn’t sumped sitting in my garage! Recently called the selling dealership and asked about sumping. Didn’t know the service writer whom I talked to, but said they have not had this issue. Ok. So, I called again the following week and talked to a friend that is the service manager there. I do trust his opinion. He also said this has not been an issue in regards to sumping.I too asked a friend at a dealership he said they get more questions about it than anything......big dealership and not one has showed up yet.
Although I do feel a little better, I am still concerned.
Maybe for the 125th anniversary, it’ll all be figured out!!
Post by: happyman on June 13, 2018, 03:07:59 PM
I'm with you on this. I'm taking a 1400M trip to Sturgis and hope I don't run into any issues.
[/quoteyou trailering it or riding . i would to be real honest never ever attempt to ride a m8 that far without a trailer close by. at least from i have seen and none of it is good .
Post by: happyman on June 13, 2018, 03:10:14 PM
I too asked a friend at a dealership he said they get more questions about it than anything......big dealership and not one has showed up yet.
they must not sell many bikes
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 13, 2018, 07:06:04 PM
Post by: chinashop bull on June 13, 2018, 07:30:23 PM
Read through this post and don't remember seeing any 2018 M8 owners having this issue, did I miss them?
Maybe not in this thread but over 1/2 a dozen other threads with plenty 2018 bikes
Post by: Fired00d on June 13, 2018, 08:35:44 PM
OK, I will stop torturing everyone with this thread and deal with it myself but unbelievably the bike sumped today! After last week maybe the "karma Gods" are paying me back but went about 100 miles today with bike running great, stopped to get a drink and when I took off huge loss of power. went about 5 miles and pulled over at a gas station and MANUALLY checked the oil and was barely touching the stick. I was about 30 miles from the dealer and said said screw it, I am going to try and make it there as most were highway miles. I could barely get on the freeway without getting run over as I couldn't get any speed going but finally got it up to about 70. The heat coming out the right side was crazy and it was smelling like it was burning up. All this is exactly what it did the first time which ended up melting entire motor so I thought "ohh well". What I had to stop at the light at the end of the offramp I could only get the bike up to about 10 mph the couple of miles to the dealer. When I stopped all the people outside were going "I think your bike is burning up" because of the smell.Any updates (that you can or wish to share) as to what is going on w/the latest sumped motor?
3rd motor this month-amazing!!
Not sure where this is going to go but Im sure you all are bored to death with this and must think i am exaggerating-I think I would if I were reading it. absolutely makes no sense, 16000 miles with zero issues then I cant get 1000 miles on it without scrambling the motor..
Im taking up knitting!
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Post by: Bumpandrun on June 13, 2018, 08:48:12 PM
they must not sell many bikeswell over 250....so not super big. No deals for me so not even a customer. He just clued me in on the first crap about oil pumps that happened in the first release of the m8. Reportedly only 8 on that Internet blast. Don't get me wrong I am sure it's happening. Sure would like to have a part too see it. Couple engine builders I know that take brandnew ones out of the frame and build them told me they just do a little to oil pump but don't change it and roll there eyes 🙄...125-175 hp and no problems . They must know something but don't share.But they don't play the silly stage game the dealers do. Probably not a good idea for a MOCO dealership parts changer to be doing engine work anyway. But what are going to do if u want to keep a warranty........ I'll probably bust open my motor this winter to have a look see.
Post by: happyman on June 13, 2018, 10:22:41 PM
Any updates (that you can or wish to share) as to what is going on w/the latest sumped motor?
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
the same ole chit. HD seems to want to leave thousands of people hanging out the dry when the warranty is gone. many then will be paying for a fix that should never ever happen to a customer with all the failures and multiple failures for many riders. the expense and the never knowing if you dare venture a hundred miles from home and having to cancel reservations, fun trips with friends cause HD has failed the public they will more than likely get away with this failed m8 experiment unfortunately
Post by: Bumpandrun on June 14, 2018, 08:30:55 AM
the same ole chit. HD seems to want to leave thousands of people hanging out the dry when the warranty is gone. many then will be paying for a fix that should never ever happen to a customer with all the failures and multiple failures for many riders. the expense and the never knowing if you dare venture a hundred miles from home and having to cancel reservations, fun trips with friends cause HD has failed the public they will more than likely get away with this failed m8 experiment unfortunately. Thousands? List 40 or 50 please .....I have seen 18-25 all over the net but seem to be the same unfortunate guys.....stuck at crappy dealerships.( have to agree that's too many) Too me not thousands and I have been snopping around dealerships since m8 came out from south fla vegas( 250 rentals) to Nebraska up too Maine . Only one I have seen cracked open was in VT.....being hot rodded. Remember our dear EVO inner cam bearings? Only repaired one case in my life. The infamous twink cam tensioners ? Ever twink on the planet was going to blow up? I made a bunch of money pulling those apart to not find maybe 3 bad out of lots.......every one of these farm tractors have had issues over the years. Till the next one! 😎🍻. Ride it or sell it...why worry ...life is too short for reservations........
Post by: iski on June 14, 2018, 08:46:29 AM
. Thousands? List 40 or 50 please .....I have seen 18-25 all over the net but seem to be the same unfortunate guys.....stuck at crappy dealerships.( have to agree that's too many) Too me not thousands and I have been snopping around dealerships since m8 came out from south fla vegas( 250 rentals) to Nebraska up too Maine . Only one I have seen cracked open was in VT.....being hot rodded. Remember our dear EVO inner cam bearings? Only repaired one case in my life. The infamous twink cam tensioners ? Ever twink on the planet was going to blow up? I made a bunch of money pulling those apart to not find maybe 3 bad out of lots.......every one of these farm tractors have had issues over the years. Till the next one! 😎🍻. Ride it or sell it...why worry ...life is too short for reservations........
Several M8 owners have had multiple engine sumping problems - no doubt. Most have Stage 3 or 4 upgrade from what I read. I know more than a few 2017 & 2018 M8 owners. Not a single one with any engine problems - no sumping. Mine included. I have been known to enjoy what some call "airing it out" & don't consider myself especially easy on engines.
Does that mean I won't have a problem someday? Nope. Does this mean I find that the problem is less widespread than some believe? Yes. Does that mean the problem could not eventually become more widespread? It won't unless it does. For many riders, the M8s are great bikes.
Post by: happyman on June 14, 2018, 08:48:13 AM
. Thousands? List 40 or 50 please .....I have seen 18-25 all over the net but seem to be the same unfortunate guys.....stuck at crappy dealerships.( have to agree that's too many) Too me not thousands and I have been snopping around dealerships since m8 came out from south fla vegas( 250 rentals) to Nebraska up too Maine . Only one I have seen cracked open was in VT.....being hot rodded. Remember our dear EVO inner cam bearings? Only repaired one case in my life. The infamous twink cam tensioners ? Ever twink on the planet was going to blow up? I made a bunch of money pulling those apart to not find maybe 3 bad out of lots.......every one of these farm tractors have had issues over the years. Till the next one! 😎🍻. Ride it or sell it...why worry ...life is too short for reservations........
I for one cannot tell you actual numbers but if you actually believe what you say bout the m8 and other hd motors your foolin yourself and that is ok by me. personally I have only seen a few of them myself. lots of dealers on forums and builders who guess have been lying all these years huh?
Post by: J.D. on June 14, 2018, 08:53:37 AM
Post by: Rooster on June 14, 2018, 10:29:38 AM
There's clearly an issue here with the M8 design and while the MoCo is doing its best to conceal it they've certainly acknowledged it at this point. The cause and extent of it is not yet known. Unfortunately, like some of the TC engine "reliability" issues (early tensioners, later lifters), they won't be realized until after the factory warranty period.My 07 comp assembly failed within days after warranty expired. Zero help from the MOCO. One of the reasons have not bought a new HD. I'm not about to buy another new one just to start spending $$ to correct the MOCO's short comings. With the high price they charge for their their so called best. I still hope they get better but not seeing it yet. :jack: Sorry carry on.
Post by: Fired00d on June 14, 2018, 10:38:23 AM
the same ole chit. HD seems to want to leave thousands of people hanging out the dry when the warranty is gone. many then will be paying for a fix that should never ever happen to a customer with all the failures and multiple failures for many riders. the expense and the never knowing if you dare venture a hundred miles from home and having to cancel reservations, fun trips with friends cause HD has failed the public they will more than likely get away with this failed m8 experiment unfortunatelyMy question was for the OP (Alan) of whose post I quoted.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Post by: Bumpandrun on June 14, 2018, 12:04:39 PM
I for one cannot tell you actual numbers but if you actually believe what you say bout the m8 and other hd motors your foolin yourself and that is ok by me. personally I have only seen a few of them myself. lots of dealers on forums and builders who guess have been lying all these years huh?I guess....like I said. EVO inner cam bearing....twink every one was going to blow up because of tensioners ...real deal was cranks twisting but nobody went crazy with that warranty never would touch it. This m8 the first thing was the crying about liquid leaking....and a few did. Lol.
I don't fool myself sir....I do own one of all of them back too a 62 sporty. Little more experience with motors....no matter what they are in or on than just these. Sure would like to see pictures of the inside of these blow up motors and sumpin new 😂.. If u have motor work done at a dealer I will say this.....your flat out foolish . Chrome cup holder installers shouldn't be doing a motor that takes a good builder a few days to machine and assemble.That includes installing long blocks or any part if it. But it's back to warranty and I get that ....not one should be bad.
It happens in every industry.
Well spent too much time on this already and guys here were helpful . Off to Laconia on my m8 twink staying home today .
I ll let u know when mine comes unglued......
Post by: happyman on June 14, 2018, 12:12:22 PM
I guess....like I said. EVO inner cam bearing....twink every one was going to blow up because of tensioners ...real deal was cranks twisting but nobody went crazy with that warranty never would touch it. This m8 the first thing was the crying about liquid leaking....and a few did. Lol.your right you did not fool yourself you just ignore facts .
I don't fool myself sir....I do own one of all of them back too a 62 sporty. Little more experience with motors....no matter what they are in or on than just these. Sure would like to see pictures of the inside of these blow up motors and sumpin new 😂.. If u have motor work done at a dealer I will say this.....your flat out foolish . Chrome cup holder installers shouldn't be doing a motor that takes a good builder a few days to machine and assemble.That includes installing long blocks or any part if it. But it's back to warranty and I get that ....not one should be bad.
It happens in every industry.
Well spent too much time on this already and guys here were helpful . Off to Laconia on my m8 twink staying home today .
I ll let u know when mine comes unglued......
Post by: happyman on June 14, 2018, 01:23:40 PM
SDCVO:
I hate to even mention it but this issue has gone on long enough!! It may be time for Harley to step up and buy all of these bikes back OR provide a new 2018 in exchange.
If not the nasty old government may get involved very soon.
Like everyone here I am very sorry for your loss and admire your tenacity.
Best regards
we need to remember the 18's have the problem also , so its been many months issues have been known about . keep doing the same thing and same issues happen, all too often
other Jerry
Post by: Para Bellum on June 15, 2018, 08:34:12 PM
the same ole chit. HD seems to want to leave thousands of people hanging out the dry when the warranty is gone. many then will be paying for a fix that should never ever happen to a customer with all the failures and multiple failures for many riders. the expense and the never knowing if you dare venture a hundred miles from home and having to cancel reservations, fun trips with friends cause HD has failed the public they will more than likely get away with this failed m8 experiment unfortunately
. Thousands? List 40 or 50 please .....I have seen 18-25 all over the net but seem to be the same unfortunate guys.....stuck at crappy dealerships.( have to agree that's too many) Too me not thousands and I have been snopping around dealerships since m8 came out from south fla vegas( 250 rentals) to Nebraska up too Maine . Only one I have seen cracked open was in VT.....being hot rodded. Remember our dear EVO inner cam bearings? Only repaired one case in my life. The infamous twink cam tensioners ? Ever twink on the planet was going to blow up? I made a bunch of money pulling those apart to not find maybe 3 bad out of lots.......every one of these farm tractors have had issues over the years. Till the next one! 😎🍻. Ride it or sell it...why worry ...life is too short for reservations........Happyman's point is that many people could have this problem after the warranty expires. Kinda like compensators and lifters did.
Post by: SDCVO on June 15, 2018, 11:16:21 PM
My question was for the OP (Alan) of whose post I quoted.I promised I wouldn't bore everyone with my continued saga so I haven't been updating but looks like " the battle" may be over. Will be taking a 19 assuming what rep agreed to verbally (after a month of pure fun..) will be same as what it says when I get paperwork. Paperwork due before June 22, bike due before Oct 30th or hopefully sooner.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Post by: Twolanerider on June 15, 2018, 11:18:18 PM
I promised I wouldn't bore everyone with my continued saga so I haven't been updating but looks like " the battle" may be over. Will be taking a 19 assuming what rep agreed to verbally (after a month of pure fun..) will be same as what it says when I get paperwork. Paperwork due before June 22, bike due before Oct 30th or hopefully sooner.
2019 what? Did he give a hint what the next year's CVO models would be?
Post by: Para Bellum on June 15, 2018, 11:45:14 PM
I promised I wouldn't bore everyone with my continued saga so I haven't been updating but looks like " the battle" may be over. Will be taking a 19 assuming what rep agreed to verbally (after a month of pure fun..) will be same as what it says when I get paperwork. Paperwork due before June 22, bike due before Oct 30th or hopefully sooner.I was always interested about what happened with your
Post by: SDCVO on June 16, 2018, 12:24:58 AM
I was always interested about what happened with yourYes, they wanted to give me a 18. I had a couple of reasons to demand a 19 1) figure best shot of them re designing M8 to fix sumping would be on new year model. Any major design change would have to pass EPA compliance so though Moco is telling customers they are getting "19" motors, it is impossible for them to release before that. 2) if they have not fixed issue and new bike sumps on me I will let dealer replace the motor and then sell bike and give up on the M8. IMO it takes at least 5000 miles to see if new design is actually fixed or not (maybe more) and if id does sump and I sell it obviously a 19 will be worth quite a bit more then a 18 which is worth waiting a few months for.1234 (?) motors, and read all your updates. Hope you don't mind my asking: What happened to cause you to wait for the 2019s, and is this what you wanted?
Rep claims they have come up with solution and are replacing sumped motors now with new design (as I said they can only do so much so not sure I believe him) and so far have done 15 in the last few weeks and not one has come back yet. Maybe Heatwave on this forum is one of them and I hope so but I wasn't prepared to take that gamble.
Of course this is the end result of a long complete PIA battle (would have put you all in a coma if I was posting all the way through..) with Moco that started beginning of May and just ended (hopefully) last week. Cant imagine after that the paperwork next week will be anything different than what we agreed to verbally but I guess it won't be done/done until I see that and actually take delivery in October.
Thankfully my 12 Roadglide is running great so just hoping that old girl holds out for me till then. She is getting a bit "long in the tooth" with over 60,000 miles but only has about 12000 miles on S&S 124.
See now why I haven't been updating??
Post by: Para Bellum on June 16, 2018, 02:11:41 AM
I can see not updating if you don't want to re-live the frustration and the hassle of the breakdowns, so I appreciate your willingness to do it. The forum members who have read about "the Sumpers" on here probably know more about it than 90% of the dealers. Thanks again for that.
Keeping fingers crossed that the '19 cases, etc., fix the problem permanently, and that HD makes a "goodwill" gesture to those who run into the problem after warranty. :nixweiss:
Post by: grc on June 16, 2018, 08:36:10 AM
Actually they don't have to recertify the engine if the change they make has no impact on emissions. IF the change they've decided on is just the in the cases as Heatwave was led to believe, that wouldn't require recertification. And btw, the whole EPA certification thing is not what many people seem to believe it is. In most cases manufacturers are allowed to self-certify; EPA does not test all the products on the market and at most just does some random testing to try to keep those manufacturers honest. That's why VW was able to get away with their diesel scam for so long, before the EPA test contractor finally caught them.
Jerry
Post by: happyman on June 16, 2018, 09:51:55 AM
Actually they don't have to recertify the engine if the change they make has no impact on emissions. IF the change they've decided on is just the in the cases as Heatwave was led to believe, that wouldn't require recertification. And btw, the whole EPA certification thing is not what many people seem to believe it is. In most cases manufacturers are allowed to self-certify; EPA does not test all the products on the market and at most just does some random testing to try to keep those manufacturers honest. That's why VW was able to get away with their diesel scam for so long, before the EPA test contractor finally caught them.
Jerry
[/quoteThree weeks ago i got another motor for y 17 CVO yes one of several and its still the 17 cases and it is a 18 top end and 18 cam which is differant than the one in the 17 also the compression has been lowerd a lot i believe. prolly at least a point. got it home and do not want to even venture out on it because of all the issues and hassles of down bike, the miles and the expense of doing this back and forth let alone all the frustration is not why we spend our hard earned money. there neeeeds to be something in writing that whn HD does get a real honest fix for these the m8 they make sure all bikes get the fix that are affected even after the warranty is up it is what itt is and the customers deserve it .it is a bad deal to have to keeep going baks for a fix that is nothing but more of the samee ole. yeas wee get a few hundred miles on the temp. fix but darne not ventur out on a trip cause the odds are your going to be walking home.
Post by: Fired00d on June 16, 2018, 12:01:57 PM
I promised I wouldn't bore everyone with my continued saga so I haven't been updating but looks like " the battle" may be over. Will be taking a 19 assuming what rep agreed to verbally (after a month of pure fun..) will be same as what it says when I get paperwork. Paperwork due before June 22, bike due before Oct 30th or hopefully sooner.Alan no bore at all... Appreciate you sharing the update(s)... as what is so great about this site we learn about/thru other's experiences... good or bad. Thanks, and good luck. :2vrolijk_21:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 16, 2018, 05:44:35 PM
Post by: SDCVO on June 16, 2018, 11:58:42 PM
Actually they don't have to recertify the engine if the change they make has no impact on emissions. IF the change they've decided on is just the in the cases as Heatwave was led to believe, that wouldn't require recertification. And btw, the whole EPA certification thing is not what many people seem to believe it is. In most cases manufacturers are allowed to self-certify; EPA does not test all the products on the market and at most just does some random testing to try to keep those manufacturers honest. That's why VW was able to get away with their diesel scam for so long, before the EPA test contractor finally caught them.Yes and no Jerry, your right they can self certify but still have to register that certification. They absolutely can not release year specific vin numbers (motor, frame etc) before they certify their release date. I am thinking to really correct the M8 it will take a drastic "metal change" that will require re certification but of course that is just my opinion which I shared with the HD rep and he claims they fixed problem without having to do that. You know from working in the industry how expensive that re tooling would be so of course they will try everything they can to fix problem without having to do that. I hope they did!
Jerry
VW diesel certs were done by the EPA but the engineers programed the ECM to recognize the testing procedure and change its program (fool system) to emit less "bad stuff". Very high level programing that they got away with for a long time. Question now is did any other OEM do it??
Post by: SDCVO on June 17, 2018, 12:03:07 AM
Ok I have a question for those with the Sumping issue. Are you running over 3 k RPM? I rode over 260 miles today mostly over 65-70 mph. Tacking between 25-2800 RPM. Never had an issue. Wondering what the RPM range is that you are running and for how longFirst 500 miles did not go over 3000, next 250 up to 4000, next 250 (never made it) up to 4500 ish
Post by: happyman on June 17, 2018, 09:32:04 AM
Happyman's point is that many people could have this problem after the warranty expires. Kinda like compensators and lifters did.motors are many times the cost of a motor and the labor to ch8ange it out. people who have all too often financed thee bikes now have a very expensive bike they cannot afford to get repaired, what is the HD plan to make this right for all who have these 17 and 18 m8 bikes. and is there a fix in the works that HD is going to make people whole witjh or is it just tuff break . think those folks will be repeat buyers?
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 18, 2018, 11:19:27 AM
First 500 miles did not go over 3000, next 250 up to 4000, next 250 (never made it) up to 4500 ish
If you don't mind me asking, hat gear are you running in? I'm in 6th gear at 60 on up, I never TAC over 3000.
Post by: SDCVO on June 19, 2018, 12:43:49 AM
If you don't mind me asking, hat gear are you running in? I'm in 6th gear at 60 on up, I never TAC over 3000.sounds like your lugging your motor.
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on June 19, 2018, 08:40:49 AM
If you don't mind me asking, hat gear are you running in? I'm in 6th gear at 60 on up, I never TAC over 3000.
If on the interstate, my cruise is at 3000 RPM. In the twisties in the mountains I run between 2500 and 4000 RPM. I'm not in 6th until 70 mph or more.
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 19, 2018, 09:02:53 AM
sounds like your lugging your motor.It doesn't seem to be lugging, even going by the owners manual it say 6 th gear at 55 and above, I generally don't get into 6th until 60, but theres no lag when I twist the throttle, no lack of response or power, so, if its lugging, I cant tell.
Post by: ultrarider123 on June 19, 2018, 09:32:10 AM
This new M8 in the '17's and '18's (including your anni) may be able to handle "lugging" a bit better than the TC. The TC did'n'a lyke it below 2,000 in general.
My old Evo's could lug all day long around 1,500 RPM and not complain (much, anyway).
The old Shovel was lug city.....sure do miss that sound and lope...but not much else... :)
Post by: grc on June 19, 2018, 04:10:43 PM
Running for any length of time at higher rpm's may in fact play a part in the sumping issue, but that doesn't mean people should blame those who ride at 4000 rpm versus chugging along at 2200 like many Harley riders tend to do. The problem is fairly basic, there is more oil being pumped into the engine than is being returned to the oil pan, until the dry sump is overloaded with oil. The oil pumps are constant displacement units, so the faster you spin them the more oil they pump. Think about it. At 4000 rpm for instance, in theory the pump can pump twice as much oil as it can at 2000 rpm. If the return side of the system has a bottleneck that limits the amount of oil that can be sent back to the pan, and that bottleneck translates to only allowing enough flow to balance the supply side at 3000 rpm or less as an example, the guys running higher rpms for longer periods of time would be more likely to experience the problem. A properly designed and manufactured system should be able to handle maximum rpms for extended periods of time with no backup of oil in the system. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't see dry sump engines in so many race cars. I think I remember suggesting way back at the beginning of this saga that the aces at H-D might want to consult with the folks from Porsche if they couldn't quickly figure out this sumping issue. Porsche doesn't have sumping problems running at more than double the rpms of Harley's engines. And Porsche designed the most trouble free engine Harley has ever produced, the Revolution, proving it can be done but obviously not by the folks working at Harley. Proving once again top quality engineering is much more important than just hanging your hat on styling for the past thirty years.
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: Heatwave on June 19, 2018, 04:14:03 PM
Running for any length of time at higher rpm's may in fact play a part in the sumping issue, but that doesn't mean people should blame those who ride at 4000 rpm versus chugging along at 2200 like many Harley riders tend to do. The problem is fairly basic, there is more oil being pumped into the engine than is being returned to the oil pan, until the dry sump is overloaded with oil. The oil pumps are constant displacement units, so the faster you spin them the more oil they pump. Think about it. At 4000 rpm for instance, in theory the pump can pump twice as much oil as it can at 2000 rpm. If the return side of the system has a bottleneck that limits the amount of oil that can be sent back to the pan, and that bottleneck translates to only allowing enough flow to balance the supply side at 3000 rpm or less as an example, the guys running higher rpms for longer periods of time would be more likely to experience the problem. A properly designed and manufactured system should be able to handle maximum rpms for extended periods of time with no backup of oil in the system. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't see dry sump engines in so many race cars. I think I remember suggesting way back at the beginning of this saga that the aces at H-D might want to consult with the folks from Porsche if they couldn't quickly figure out this sumping issue. Porsche doesn't have sumping problems running at more than double the rpms of Harley's engines. And Porsche designed the most trouble free engine Harley has ever produced, the Revolution, proving it can be done but obviously not by the folks working at Harley. Proving once again top quality engineering is much more important than just hanging your hat on styling for the past thirty years.
JMHO - Jerry
Spot on analysis!
Post by: chinashop bull on June 19, 2018, 04:35:35 PM
Running for any length of time at higher rpm's may in fact play a part in the sumping issue, but that doesn't mean people should blame those who ride at 4000 rpm versus chugging along at 2200 like many Harley riders tend to do. The problem is fairly basic, there is more oil being pumped into the engine than is being returned to the oil pan, until the dry sump is overloaded with oil. The oil pumps are constant displacement units, so the faster you spin them the more oil they pump. Think about it. At 4000 rpm for instance, in theory the pump can pump twice as much oil as it can at 2000 rpm. If the return side of the system has a bottleneck that limits the amount of oil that can be sent back to the pan, and that bottleneck translates to only allowing enough flow to balance the supply side at 3000 rpm or less as an example, the guys running higher rpms for longer periods of time would be more likely to experience the problem. A properly designed and manufactured system should be able to handle maximum rpms for extended periods of time with no backup of oil in the system. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't see dry sump engines in so many race cars. I think I remember suggesting way back at the beginning of this saga that the aces at H-D might want to consult with the folks from Porsche if they couldn't quickly figure out this sumping issue. Porsche doesn't have sumping problems running at more than double the rpms of Harley's engines. And Porsche designed the most trouble free engine Harley has ever produced, the Revolution, proving it can be done but obviously not by the folks working at Harley. Proving once again top quality engineering is much more important than just hanging your hat on styling for the past thirty years.
JMHO - Jerry
I agree with your analysis of the cause of sumping but strong disagree with your claims Porsche will fix it because Harley obviously can't. Harley have been running dry sump motors since '36. They know what they are doing just as much as Porsche do.
My guess is that so far the sumping issue is bigger than a pump redesign and may need both new case design and camplate and Harley is still hoping to find a cheaper cure than replacing cases, pump and camplate.
Post by: fastfreddy on June 19, 2018, 06:26:29 PM
I agree with your analysis of the cause of sumping but strong disagree with your claims Porsche will fix it because Harley obviously can't. Harley have been running dry sump motors since '36. They know what they are doing just as much as Porsche do.just a slight over sight in the R&D at the engine shop :nixweiss: … no one wants to see HD F up, but this is a disaster
My guess is that so far the sumping issue is bigger than a pump redesign and may need both new case design and camplate and Harley is still hoping to find a cheaper cure than replacing cases, pump and camplate.
Post by: J.D. on June 19, 2018, 07:01:54 PM
If it was a simple problem it would have been identified during development and resolved before production.
The easy band aid was the (multiple?) oil pump design change(s). Likely beefing up the scavenging side. We now know that is not the solution. So something else is going on.
There's only a few ways an engine can sump, and this is likely not a "simple" issue, but I'm confident that HD engineering is good enough to identify the root cause and implement a good solution.
The problem here is the treatment of the consumers, who have done nothing wrong. HD is handling this design issue, again, all wrong. Don't make engineering the scapegoat.
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 19, 2018, 07:30:33 PM
You may not feel like it's lugging but rule of thumb on the 110 Twin Cams was nothing below 2,000 RPM. I keep mine in the 2,200 to 3,000 range for the '15. I never see 6th gear on my ride to and from work. Normally, Beau doesn't get into 6th until I'm running 60 or better on one of the Eisenhower expressways... ;D
This new M8 in the '17's and '18's (including your anni) may be able to handle "lugging" a bit better than the TC. The TC did'n'a lyke it below 2,000 in general.
My old Evo's could lug all day long around 1,500 RPM and not complain (much, anyway).
The old Shovel was lug city.....sure do miss that sound and lope...but not much else... :)
I run between 2500 and 3000 at 70-75 im turning about 2900.
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on June 20, 2018, 08:15:05 AM
I agree with your analysis of the cause of sumping but strong disagree with your claims Porsche will fix it because Harley obviously can't. Harley have been running dry sump motors since '36. They know what they are doing just as much as Porsche do.
My guess is that so far the sumping issue is bigger than a pump redesign and may need both new case design and camplate and Harley is still hoping to find a cheaper cure than replacing cases, pump and camplate.
You have much more faith in HD than I do. HD had Porsche design the V-Rod engine, which has had much less problems than the Twin Cam or the M8.
The 110 came out in 2007. In 2016, they were still having lifter failures on the 110 even after all the new and improved lifters. My 2015 110 had lifter failure with 44K on it, a couple days prior to the 2 year warranty being up. They replaced the engine.
You right, Harley is hoping to find a cheeper solution, which is why I do not have faith in them fixing it.
With the 110, they just wanted the lifters to last two years rather than fix the issue, it was cheeper.
Post by: grc on June 20, 2018, 08:46:39 AM
I agree with your analysis of the cause of sumping but strong disagree with your claims Porsche will fix it because Harley obviously can't. Harley have been running dry sump motors since '36. They know what they are doing just as much as Porsche do.
You do realize that comment makes no sense, right? If Harley knows what it's doing as well as Porsche, why are we even having this discussion and why are they still having failures two years after releasing the M8 engines? If Harley had such a talented staff, why did they have to subcontract the design of the Revolution engine to Porsche? If Harley has such great experts on oiling systems, why did they have to delay the Twin Cam introduction due to oiling issues back in 1998/99? Yes they've had dry sump engines going back to the 1930's. But yes, they've also had plenty of serious issues over all those years as well. And that's just the oiling system, let's not open up the rest of the can of worms concerning all the wonderful design and engineering issues they've produced over many decades. What's worse than all the mistakes is their response to all those mistakes, which usually consists of blowing them off and making the customers eat the cost of fixing those mistakes.
Jerry
Post by: J.D. on June 20, 2018, 08:55:09 AM
I think back to the TC crank changes. Seemed everything was good through 2002 with the forged cranks and good Timken bearing, then they started making changes (most likely driven by cost reductions). I'd have to think these changes were not being driven by the engineers.
Post by: bigdave110 on June 20, 2018, 09:35:24 AM
Just sold my 2017. Did not trade in as usual.
I am looking at BMW. Test rode the K1600B!! WOW All I can say is WOW!!!
Fully understanding each brand has problems. Just tired of paying so much for a bike that requires so much more work!!!
For the record, my 2017 CVO Street glide sumped more times than I can remember. Every time I rode hard for a period of time it would sump.
Dealer said there is only a recall on 117 kits. I told them jugs have nothing to do with a sumping problem.
WTF Really!!!!
Post by: Boatman on June 20, 2018, 09:45:19 AM
Sumping on the new bikes. Replacing my lifters and water pump on my own dime in less than 25k miles on my 14. 110.
Most costly vehicle I have to maintain. Also most fun vehicle. But it is getting old. Won’t buy a new one. :soapbox:
Post by: Heatwave on June 20, 2018, 09:51:08 AM
Well said Jerry.
Just sold my 2017. Did not trade in as usual.
I am looking at BMW. Test rode the K1600B!! WOW All I can say is WOW!!!
Fully understanding each brand has problems. Just tired of paying so much for a bike that requires so much more work!!!
For the record, my 2017 CVO Street glide sumped more times than I can remember. Every time I rode hard for a period of time it would sump.
Dealer said there is only a recall on 117 kits. I told them jugs have nothing to do with a sumping problem.
WTF Really!!!!
I think that was a very good move. I may be following your path so please share your final decision if you go with the BMW.
Post by: bigdave110 on June 20, 2018, 10:27:03 AM
Post by: happyman on June 20, 2018, 11:16:19 AM
You do realize that comment makes no sense, right? If Harley knows what it's doing as well as Porsche, why are we even having this discussion and why are they still having failures two years after releasing the M8 engines? If Harley had such a talented staff, why did they have to subcontract the design of the Revolution engine to Porsche? If Harley has such great experts on oiling systems, why did they have to delay the Twin Cam introduction due to oiling issues back in 1998/99? Yes they've had dry sump engines going back to the 1930's. But yes, they've also had plenty of serious issues over all those years as well. And that's just the oiling system, let's not open up the rest of the can of worms concerning all the wonderful design and engineering issues they've produced over many decades. What's worse than all the mistakes is their response to all those mistakes, which usually consists of blowing them off and making the customers eat the cost of fixing those mistakes.
being a owner of a 17 CVO which has had multiple motors, some pieced together as they try to do something without looking at the complete picture at the start, to make one repair. more issues show up as the techs do what they are told. you sit and have no ride for over half a season. then we have to wonder when, and where you will be when it fails again, and again. you cannot or dare not venture more than a few miles from home cause it cost a lot for a tow. the time involved along with sitting roadside in the heat. unless something changes there are going to be a lot of people in months who are not going to be able to do a repair unless HD awards all bikes with bad parts a warranty, because people do not have that kind of $$ to keep tossing at a vehicle that should in this world go a hundred thousand miles. without the major failures. it is tuff to imagine there is no to protect the people from this BS going on and to date there seems to be no fix. yes so far they will do the repair . if you happen to notice your bike sumps because you notice things and check things you take it to a dealer the factory tech rep tell you it will be ok to ride and you are told to take the bike and ride it. Then you have to after a hand full of miles take it back because the motor puked is a damn shame. so they in effect are telling you to burn it down before you take it to a dealer is what I get from it . you can call customer service and tell it like it is. they have the guts to tell you well its has warranty? they missed the point completely and if you9 say something then they will try to make you out to be the bad guy. they wonder why sales are off.. they really cannot be the stupid ?. have heard people at dealerships living in denial its the rider,. got news foro them . yes I guess iif you just purchase it to look at and not ride it then yes its the rider , shameful bs indeed.
Jerry
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 20, 2018, 01:45:54 PM
Running for any length of time at higher rpm's may in fact play a part in the sumping issue, but that doesn't mean people should blame those who ride at 4000 rpm versus chugging along at 2200 like many Harley riders tend to do. The problem is fairly basic, there is more oil being pumped into the engine than is being returned to the oil pan, until the dry sump is overloaded with oil. The oil pumps are constant displacement units, so the faster you spin them the more oil they pump. Think about it. At 4000 rpm for instance, in theory the pump can pump twice as much oil as it can at 2000 rpm. If the return side of the system has a bottleneck that limits the amount of oil that can be sent back to the pan, and that bottleneck translates to only allowing enough flow to balance the supply side at 3000 rpm or less as an example, the guys running higher rpms for longer periods of time would be more likely to experience the problem. A properly designed and manufactured system should be able to handle maximum rpms for extended periods of time with no backup of oil in the system. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't see dry sump engines in so many race cars. I think I remember suggesting way back at the beginning of this saga that the aces at H-D might want to consult with the folks from Porsche if they couldn't quickly figure out this sumping issue. Porsche doesn't have sumping problems running at more than double the rpms of Harley's engines. And Porsche designed the most trouble free engine Harley has ever produced, the Revolution, proving it can be done but obviously not by the folks working at Harley. Proving once again top quality engineering is much more important than just hanging your hat on styling for the past thirty years.
JMHO - Jerry
I wasn't insinuating anyone was at fault, I was just curious if the problem was related to a higher constant RPM. I just stick to the recommended shift range in the manual. doesn't feel like its lugging at all. I have spoke to several folks who pretty much run in the same range as I do, just to see if maybe I was doing something wrong.
Post by: chinashop bull on June 20, 2018, 04:08:41 PM
You do realize that comment makes no sense, right? If Harley knows what it's doing as well as Porsche, why are we even having this discussion and why are they still having failures two years after releasing the M8 engines? If Harley had such a talented staff, why did they have to subcontract the design of the Revolution engine to Porsche? If Harley has such great experts on oiling systems, why did they have to delay the Twin Cam introduction due to oiling issues back in 1998/99? Yes they've had dry sump engines going back to the 1930's. But yes, they've also had plenty of serious issues over all those years as well. And that's just the oiling system, let's not open up the rest of the can of worms concerning all the wonderful design and engineering issues they've produced over many decades. What's worse than all the mistakes is their response to all those mistakes, which usually consists of blowing them off and making the customers eat the cost of fixing those mistakes.
Jerry
Seems some here are not familiar with Porsche's own engine woes. Look up M96 and later M97 engine IMS failures. Here's a list for just that engine:
Rear Main Seal Leaks
Intermediate Shaft Bearing Failures
Cylinder Liner Cracks
Engine Casting Porosity
Chain Tensioner Failures
Cylinder Head Cracks
Cylinder Head Cracks
Connecting Rod Bolt Failures
A class action was taken in 2013 over the Intermediate Shaft Bearing Failures agreed to compensate owners of engines buikkt between 2001 and 2005. That's up to 12 years for restitution. Wow! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Intermediate_Shaft_Bearing_issue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Intermediate_Shaft_Bearing_issue)
Now if Harley has to replace each M8 with either a complete new motor or new pump and cases they will surely go broke. I think they are on the right path even as I would prefer a fix now.
Variocam Solenoids
Post by: grc on June 20, 2018, 05:49:20 PM
I wasn't insinuating anyone was at fault, I was just curious if the problem was related to a higher constant RPM. I just stick to the recommended shift range in the manual. doesn't feel like its lugging at all. I have spoke to several folks who pretty much run in the same range as I do, just to see if maybe I was doing something wrong.
No, you're not doing anything wrong. My point was that people like you may never experience the sumping problem, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't real. It also doesn't mean someone like you might not eventually decide to run your bike a bit harder than usual and then find your engine has a problem. Based on what I've read so far about this issue, I have a feeling that any M8 has the potential to experience this issue. Some may not fail until the customer finally decides to "air it out", or until they sell the bike to the next guy who rides in a more spirited manner. If it happens after two years, good luck convincing Harley to step up and fix it.
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: odessyblueIke on June 20, 2018, 06:24:09 PM
No, you're not doing anything wrong. My point was that people like you may never experience the sumping problem, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't real. It also doesn't mean someone like you might not eventually decide to run your bike a bit harder than usual and then find your engine has a problem. Based on what I've read so far about this issue, I have a feeling that any M8 has the potential to experience this issue. Some may not fail until the customer finally decides to "air it out", or until they sell the bike to the next guy who rides in a more spirited manner. If it happens after two years, good luck convincing Harley to step up and fix it.. Understood. Thanks
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: RadRob on June 21, 2018, 10:18:50 AM
I haven't had any summing issues,(knock on wood) and Lord knows I'm not easy on my 17 CVO SG, however I usually only ride short distances (less than 1- 2 hrs.) and only about 4K mi in 13 months.
This, only my 2nd Harley, is the most responsive (and expensive) bike I've ever owned or ridden.
We just went through a week of 90+ degree weather last week, I noticed at stop lights the engine would labor especially if dropping one cylinder due to heat, but it acted like it wanted to stall. After I revd 3-times and 2nd cylinder started back up but it still acted like it wanted to stall.
Taking off from the light the bike was little sluggish, a little more heat than usual......Obviously. however the bike wasn't as spunky as usual. :nervous:
not issues since that one day.
Anyway to test the bike for summing or I'll know it when it happens.
Post by: Heatwave on June 21, 2018, 10:40:02 AM
First Thanks to everyone and their input be it Good, Bad or indifferent on the M8 though this very informative thread.
I haven't had any summing issues,(knock on wood) and Lord knows I'm not easy on my 17 CVO SG, however I usually only ride short distances (less than 1- 2 hrs.) and only about 4K mi in 13 months.
This, only my 2nd Harley, is the most responsive (and expensive) bike I've ever owned or ridden.
We just went through a week of 90+ degree weather last week, I noticed at stop lights the engine would labor especially if dropping one cylinder due to heat, but it acted like it wanted to stall. After I revd 3-times and 2nd cylinder started back up but it still acted like it wanted to stall.
Taking off from the light the bike was little sluggish, a little more heat than usual......Obviously. however the bike wasn't as spunky as usual. :nervous:
not issues since that one day.
Anyway to test the bike for summing or I'll know it when it happens.
Could be early signs of sumping or it could be nothing. Try turning off the EITMS just to eliminate that variable (see your manual on how to turn it off). Next time you start to feel what you described above after riding for an hr or so, make a point to ride further and try running a little higher rpms by dropping a gear as if you are trying to pass a vehicle. Then check the throttle responsiveness again by trying to accelerate hard. If you get less and less responsiveness as you ride and roll the throttle to accelerate, there's a good chance its sumping. Get the bike to the dealer and have them check the bike using SB1450.
Post by: RadRob on June 21, 2018, 01:04:14 PM
Will do!
I really like this site and all the knowledge spread around like peanut butter. LOL
Post by: chinashop bull on June 22, 2018, 07:08:33 PM
Jerry, please post your comments after the /quote marker at the end of quoted text.
Like this.
Post by: SDCVO on November 24, 2018, 01:51:34 AM
At the end of the day I love the BMW I got and absolutely love this Roadglide. I do think its the most beautiful CVO made yet and now just pray they have really fixed the issue. Time will certainly tell and will start tomorrow with about a 300 mile ride to Palm Springs. Perfect break in weather this weekend.
OK, now we can close this thread... :)
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on November 24, 2018, 07:59:17 AM
Post by: fastfreddy on November 24, 2018, 09:56:32 AM
Post by: Ironhorse on November 24, 2018, 10:53:45 AM
Post by: SDCVO on November 25, 2018, 02:07:13 AM
Heres a better pic-
Post by: SDCVO on November 25, 2018, 02:08:44 AM
took "her" (no man would be this much work..) for a 400 mile run today and bike ran perfect. New stereo setup is fantastic. I have had Apple Play in my car for a while but never used it much other than for the navigation but it works great on the bike. Even sent a couple of texts.having Pandora was great especially considering I need to move the Sirius antenna to above the dash as I couldnt even get a constant signal in the middle of the desert. only issue I had which in the big picture is nothing. Now just need to pray it stays that way, we will see.side shot
Heres a better pic-
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on November 25, 2018, 08:30:10 AM
You could send a Text? Through Siri?
Post by: Robmay on November 25, 2018, 08:58:22 AM
Post by: 09nessrg on November 25, 2018, 09:19:15 AM
Post by: SDCVO on November 25, 2018, 01:27:11 PM
Looks good Alan. Lets hope your 100% done with issues.When you move the scroller over to messages on Apple Play then push in on the hand control she (I use a British woman, long story..) asks "who would you like to text" and then just answer her questions. I sent texts to 4 people in m y family getting longer with my message each time and every one of them worked perfect. when you get a text a banner comes up on whatever screen you are in Apple Play or not, push same knob and it reads it to you through your helmet or however you set it up. It will then ask if you want to respond. I had a full conversation going with my daughter and she had no idea I was on the freeway in Palm Springs on my bike the whole time. Meet her later and looked at my messages and was no mistakes. Very cool! My BMW certainly doesnt do that..
You could send a Text? Through Siri?
Post by: SDCVO on November 25, 2018, 01:31:17 PM
WOW! She's a suitor! Which seat, shield and bars did you put on her?seat was the Danny Grey Air Hawk from my Streetglide which matched perfectly with the red stitching. Shield is a Memphis Shades 10" spoiler shield and bars are Factory 47's. Never had the Factory 47's before, really like them. Were very comfortable yesterday.
Post by: Finster101 on November 25, 2018, 01:50:10 PM
Great looking mako, torn between that and the silver to acquire. Keep us posted, which is more comfortable for the long rides,BMW or HD, any determination? Which would you chose if you were going Seattle to Key West?
I don't and won't have a beamer to compare but my 08 Roadglide made it from Ft.Myers FL to Fairbanks and back with no issues to either my self or the bike. Even though it was a 900 lb dirt bike at times.
Post by: Robmay on November 25, 2018, 02:27:15 PM
seat was the Danny Grey Air Hawk from my Streetglide which matched perfectly with the red stitching. Shield is a Memphis Shades 10" spoiler shield and bars are Factory 47's. Never had the Factory 47's before, really like them. Were very comfortable yesterday.
Perfect. Thank you. I ordered a Memphis shades 8.5” Spoiler that came in Friday - wrong shield was sent. :-\
I’m going to check into that seat. I really like the looks of that with that riders backrest.
I’ll more than likely ride it as is for the bars until I get some miles on her.
Where were you able to score the riders highway pegs that match the passenger pegs? I don’t recall seeing those in the catalog yet. Very possible I looked right over them though. :P
Here’s a shot of the shield they sent me:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181125/bbf6115840e90163a31e48115ce5228a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181125/54cd5f53ed270f8c6a112ec644ad0f8e.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: SDCVO on November 25, 2018, 02:51:53 PM
Perfect. Thank you. I ordered a Memphis shades 8.5” Spoiler that came in Friday - wrong shield was sent. :-\I used the passenger pegs for the highway pegs
I’m going to check into that seat. I really like the looks of that with that riders backrest.
I’ll more than likely ride it as is for the bars until I get some miles on her.
Where were you able to score the riders highway pegs that match the passenger pegs? I don’t recall seeing those in the catalog yet. Very possible I looked right over them though. :P
Here’s a shot of the shield they sent me:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181125/bbf6115840e90163a31e48115ce5228a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181125/54cd5f53ed270f8c6a112ec644ad0f8e.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: ScottAL on November 26, 2018, 03:30:18 AM
https://shop.cc-cycle.com/OEMpartfinder.htm#/Harley-Davidson%C2%AE/FLTRXSE_1TCL_CVO_ROAD_GLIDE_(2019)/FOOTPEGS,_PASSENGER/1TCL//2019/FLTRXSE_1TCL_CVO_ROAD_GLIDE_(2019)//FOOTPEGS,_PASSE (https://shop.cc-cycle.com/OEMpartfinder.htm#/Harley-Davidson%C2%AE/FLTRXSE_1TCL_CVO_ROAD_GLIDE_(2019)/FOOTPEGS,_PASSENGER/1TCL//2019/FLTRXSE_1TCL_CVO_ROAD_GLIDE_(2019)//FOOTPEGS,_PASSE)
Post by: Robmay on November 26, 2018, 05:01:53 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: scottt on November 26, 2018, 07:37:30 AM
Well said Jerry.After 28 years of Harley ownership I did what your thinking about.
Just sold my 2017. Did not trade in as usual.
I am looking at BMW. Test rode the K1600B!! WOW All I can say is WOW!!!
Fully understanding each brand has problems. Just tired of paying so much for a bike that requires so much more work!!!
For the record, my 2017 CVO Street glide sumped more times than I can remember. Every time I rode hard for a period of time it would sump.
Dealer said there is only a recall on 117 kits. I told them jugs have nothing to do with a sumping problem.
WTF Really!!!!
Now own a BMW K1600B or Bagger. It's simply an amazing motorcycle. So much fun to ride.
I still like Harleys and may buy another at some point. If I do, it will be a 2001 or 2002 with carb. My expectations from the Harley would be completely different than my BMW. It would be for shorter rides. I've been burned too many times with late model Harleys and don't want to repeat those mistakes.
While the BMW owner experience is less than perfect, my dealer has been first rate at taking care of me. Could not ask for more.
Good luck
Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk
Post by: BigLew on November 26, 2018, 09:10:44 AM
BigLew
Post by: SDCVO on November 27, 2018, 12:01:11 AM
So Alan you are stage 4 on the 2019?yes
BigLew
Post by: Billy on December 12, 2018, 07:37:35 PM
Post by: SDCVO on December 13, 2018, 12:56:33 AM
So have all the sumping issues been solved. No one is complaining anymore. I hope this is true. Thanks BillyI am absolutely disgusted to tell all this but last Sunday I was about 250 miles into a ride at a stoplight about to get on the freeway and when I took off the bike stumbled hard. As I got on the freeway I knew (from experience unfortunately) that bike was sumping. I pulled off at next exit which was about 6 miles down the road and pulled into a strip mall where I hit my LED dipstick and it showed 318 degrees and oil wasn't even registering on the 4 bars. I went into a donut shop and grabbed bunch of napkins and pulled dipstick out and oil barely touched bottom of stick. I was so furious I walked away and went and ate 5 donuts and had a cup of coffee. I looked and saw that a Harley dealer was about 10 miles from me (I was about 100 miles from home) so after about 30 minutes I decided to try and make it there. When I went to check the oil again the oil now was about 3/4 to full. Bike stared fine and I rode about 1/4 mile to get gas and checked oil again and now it was completely full. I jumped back on the freeway with my GPS set for the dealer but by the time I got to that exit bike was running perfect so I decided to see how far it would continue. I ended up making it all the way home and bike again ran perfect. Of course I called the dealer first thing and they came and picked up. They started ion the bike first thing Tuesday and did leak down, rode for 50 miles, called HD tech and of course called me late today and said those famous words "couldn't replicate". Really nothing I can do about it since though this bike is the settlement with Harley over the last bike sumping 3 motors, by accepting this bike "the clock" starts all over and this is just a first episode on a new bike with 1700 miles on it. A good buddy of mine that was a Harley tech for 20 years and who helped me with advice on the last bike told me that's what would happen and his advice this time was to just go ride the bike and see what happens. I now do have the "episode" documented with dealer and Harley so with no other options I will do was he said and just keep riding it and see what happens. very strange to me to have bike sump and then go back to normal, certainly not what my last bike ever did. When it sumped, it stayed sumped.
I wasn't even going to post this since I hate to be a negative source to our forum and it doesn't seem like many others are having the issues that I am. Maybe Harley is right and it is my riding style with the M8 that is causing this.
Sorry to post this but Billy asked...
Post by: JCZ on December 13, 2018, 01:27:52 AM
Post by: Heatwave on December 13, 2018, 01:58:44 AM
The pics will lead to a more constructive conversation with your dealer. And they can use the pics with HD customer service.
Did you have the latest oil pump with seal?
Post by: grc on December 13, 2018, 08:36:19 AM
The part that is very strange to me, if I read it right, was that the oil level on the dipstick went from nothing registered to 3/4 full while the bike was sitting in the parking lot of the donut shop. Theoretically that can't happen with a dry sump engine, since no oil transfers from the sump to the oil pan unless the engine is running. Or did I just read it wrong and the oil level increased after letting the engine idle for a period of time? Either way, assuming you have the latest oil pump cover and seal, your experience is not the first time I've read something about a bike with the latest parts sumping; I've seen a couple other reports similar to yours. In one report the rider recognized the symptoms and pulled over, allowed the bike to cool for a period of time, fired it up and rode it home without a repeat. He was advised to have the engine checked for damage but I never saw a further report from him.
Jerry
Post by: Twolanerider on December 13, 2018, 02:45:11 PM
Post by: Fired00d on December 13, 2018, 03:26:00 PM
I am absolutely disgusted to tell all this but last Sunday I was about 250 miles into a ride at a stoplight about to get on the freeway and when I took off the bike stumbled hard. As I got on the freeway I knew (from experience unfortunately) that bike was sumping. I pulled off at next exit which was about 6 miles down the road and pulled into a strip mall where I hit my LED dipstick and it showed 318 degrees and oil wasn't even registering on the 4 bars. I went into a donut shop and grabbed bunch of napkins and pulled dipstick out and oil barely touched bottom of stick. I was so furious I walked away and went and ate 5 donuts and had a cup of coffee. I looked and saw that a Harley dealer was about 10 miles from me (I was about 100 miles from home) so after about 30 minutes I decided to try and make it there. When I went to check the oil again the oil now was about 3/4 to full. Bike stared fine and I rode about 1/4 mile to get gas and checked oil again and now it was completely full. I jumped back on the freeway with my GPS set for the dealer but by the time I got to that exit bike was running perfect so I decided to see how far it would continue. I ended up making it all the way home and bike again ran perfect. Of course I called the dealer first thing and they came and picked up. They started ion the bike first thing Tuesday and did leak down, rode for 50 miles, called HD tech and of course called me late today and said those famous words "couldn't replicate". Really nothing I can do about it since though this bike is the settlement with Harley over the last bike sumping 3 motors, by accepting this bike "the clock" starts all over and this is just a first episode on a new bike with 1700 miles on it. A good buddy of mine that was a Harley tech for 20 years and who helped me with advice on the last bike told me that's what would happen and his advice this time was to just go ride the bike and see what happens. I now do have the "episode" documented with dealer and Harley so with no other options I will do was he said and just keep riding it and see what happens. very strange to me to have bike sump and then go back to normal, certainly not what my last bike ever did. When it sumped, it stayed sumped.Sumab!tch!!!! Damn that sucks so sorry to read this Alan. :'(
I wasn't even going to post this since I hate to be a negative source to our forum and it doesn't seem like many others are having the issues that I am. Maybe Harley is right and it is my riding style with the M8 that is causing this.
Sorry to post this but Billy asked...
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Post by: 09nessrg on December 13, 2018, 04:56:45 PM
Post by: smkymtnboy on December 13, 2018, 06:13:36 PM
I am absolutely disgusted to tell all this but last Sunday I was about 250 miles into a ride at a stoplight about to get on the freeway and when I took off the bike stumbled hard. As I got on the freeway I knew (from experience unfortunately) that bike was sumping. I pulled off at next exit which was about 6 miles down the road and pulled into a strip mall where I hit my LED dipstick and it showed 318 degrees and oil wasn't even registering on the 4 bars. I went into a donut shop and grabbed bunch of napkins and pulled dipstick out and oil barely touched bottom of stick. I was so furious I walked away and went and ate 5 donuts and had a cup of coffee. I looked and saw that a Harley dealer was about 10 miles from me (I was about 100 miles from home) so after about 30 minutes I decided to try and make it there. When I went to check the oil again the oil now was about 3/4 to full. Bike stared fine and I rode about 1/4 mile to get gas and checked oil again and now it was completely full. I jumped back on the freeway with my GPS set for the dealer but by the time I got to that exit bike was running perfect so I decided to see how far it would continue. I ended up making it all the way home and bike again ran perfect. Of course I called the dealer first thing and they came and picked up. They started ion the bike first thing Tuesday and did leak down, rode for 50 miles, called HD tech and of course called me late today and said those famous words "couldn't replicate". Really nothing I can do about it since though this bike is the settlement with Harley over the last bike sumping 3 motors, by accepting this bike "the clock" starts all over and this is just a first episode on a new bike with 1700 miles on it. A good buddy of mine that was a Harley tech for 20 years and who helped me with advice on the last bike told me that's what would happen and his advice this time was to just go ride the bike and see what happens. I now do have the "episode" documented with dealer and Harley so with no other options I will do was he said and just keep riding it and see what happens. very strange to me to have bike sump and then go back to normal, certainly not what my last bike ever did. When it sumped, it stayed sumped.this stinks,period!!
I wasn't even going to post this since I hate to be a negative source to our forum and it doesn't seem like many others are having the issues that I am. Maybe Harley is right and it is my riding style with the M8 that is causing this.
Sorry to post this but Billy asked...
Post by: mark on December 13, 2018, 06:47:24 PM
Post by: Robmay on December 13, 2018, 06:53:51 PM
Post by: Heatwave on December 13, 2018, 07:36:00 PM
Sucks Alan. I still think the stage 4 is a common thread in all of this. :confused5:
Clearly the common denominator is the Milwaukee 8 engine design (not just stage IV) which is supported by the Service Bulletin which covers all versions. No M8 engine is exempt but clearly different upgrades and riding styles can make an M8 engine have a higher risk of sumping.
Post by: SDCVO on December 13, 2018, 11:02:10 PM
Sorry to hear, but I’m just not surprised. Next time try to remember to take poctures of the dipstick. Try taking a picture of the dipstick BEFORE and then again AFTER riding a similar route to the one that created the sumping conditions.yes I have verified before I took delivery I had the new oil pump. I am going to take video of me checking the oil when I heat it up when I ride Sat and if (when probably) it does it again I will also take video showing the oil level
The pics will lead to a more constructive conversation with your dealer. And they can use the pics with HD customer service.
Did you have the latest oil pump with seal?
Post by: Heatwave on December 13, 2018, 11:11:43 PM
Post by: Cvostu on December 13, 2018, 11:13:33 PM
Post by: SDCVO on December 13, 2018, 11:27:02 PM
The part that is very strange to me, if I read it right, was that the oil level on the dipstick went from nothing registered to 3/4 full while the bike was sitting in the parking lot of the donut shop. Theoretically that can't happen with a dry sump engine, since no oil transfers from the sump to the oil pan unless the engine is running. Or did I just read it wrong and the oil level increased after letting the engine idle for a period of time? Either way, assuming you have the latest oil pump cover and seal, your experience is not the first time I've read something about a bike with the latest parts sumping; I've seen a couple other reports similar to yours. In one report the rider recognized the symptoms and pulled over, allowed the bike to cool for a period of time, fired it up and rode it home without a repeat. He was advised to have the engine checked for damage but I never saw a further report from him.No Jerry, you read that correctly. I did check the oil immediately after shutting it off and then again about 30 minutes later. Only slight chance of an error on my part is that I didn't get the first service done until around 1100 miles so oil (Amsoil) was very clear and admittedly I was freaking out when I hit the LED dipstick and it showed no oil so when I pulled the dipstick out I didn't have my gloves on and only had a napkin holding it so it was very hot and I looked at it very quickly and then threw it down (in frustration along with it burning me..) on the grass next to me. I might have not seen it correctly but when I came back 30 minuted later the LED dipstick then did show about 3/4 full. When I stopped at the gas station 5 minutes later both the LED dipstick showed full and this time I grabbed a handful of paper towels and for sure saw that dipstick was full as well. Dealer told me same thing that oil couldn't have returned with bike off and they thought maybe it just hadn't drained down yet which is ridiculous to me to that degree. I do think when I got home and it showed 3/4 when I first jumped off the bike and then full 10 minutes later that was the oil draining down. Dealer hated the LED dipstick (as does my buddy that was a tech) and keeps telling me how unreliable they are but so far every time I check both ways they have been spot on.
Jerry
Only good thing is I finally got to tread the work order today and dealer definitely did document everything very accurately and showed results of compression and leak down tests. I am comfortable at least that no damage was done to motor. As I just posted I will video everything going forward so next time there will be no question. Of course I hope and pray there will not be a next time but unfortunately I don't believe in the Easter Bunny any longer..
Such a bummer, really was loving the bike.
Post by: Heatwave on December 14, 2018, 01:10:44 AM
Its really important to follow the steps in the owners manual for checking the oil level.
Post by: JCZ on December 14, 2018, 09:40:58 AM
Post by: SDCVO on December 15, 2018, 12:00:29 AM
Did you experience any power loss? With the oil completely off the dipstick, the bike would have a crankcase full of oil (assuming the oil was at FULL at the start of the ride). With a crankcase full of oil you would experience a massive power loss.Yes, I did have the power loss which was how I knew I had a problem and why I pulled over and checked the oil immediately. I of course know how to check the oil properly, I was just so out of my mind when I did pull over because I knew I had an issue again that I let my emotions get the best of me. Tomorrow when I ride I will check the oil every time I stop and will video it each time. Will see what happens this weekend, hoping for the best!
Its really important to follow the steps in the owners manual for checking the oil level.
Post by: Heatwave on December 15, 2018, 12:12:33 AM
Just trying to help by suggesting you leave the dealer and HD as little wiggle room as possible if the engine sumps again when your riding vs the dealer. The dealers never spend enough time on the bike to truly test sumping. I believe it takes at least 75-100 miles for a cold engine to get a bike into circumstances that can initiate M8 engine sumping.
Post by: JCZ on December 15, 2018, 09:06:22 AM
Yes, I did have the power loss which was how I knew I had a problem and why I pulled over and checked the oil immediately. I of course know how to check the oil properly, I was just so out of my mind when I did pull over because I knew I had an issue again that I let my emotions get the best of me. Tomorrow when I ride I will check the oil every time I stop and will video it each time. Will see what happens this weekend, hoping for the best!
Was good to see you yesterday Alan. We'll get a ride in before I leave San Diego.
Get rid of that LED dipstick. Don't want to give the MoCo something to throw an excuse at.
Post by: SDCVO on December 15, 2018, 09:37:29 PM
JC, not using the LED for anything other than the top of the dipstick I unscrew (though I may have "peeked" at it a few times and it was spot on to what the stick said..) :o
Post by: Bob Coco on December 22, 2018, 09:37:10 AM
My recommendation would be to actually state in the video that you are checking the oil level by following the procedure in the owners manual. This way, neither the dealer or HD Customer Service can argue that you improperly checked the oil level.
Just trying to help by suggesting you leave the dealer and HD as little wiggle room as possible if the engine sumps again when your riding vs the dealer. The dealers never spend enough time on the bike to truly test sumping. I believe it takes at least 75-100 miles for a cold engine to get a bike into circumstances that can initiate M8 engine sumping.
Heatwave, I sumped my totally stock 18 CVO the first time on a 40 mile ride. The bike had 168 miles on the odometer. Then the dealer took it out and cooked the engine. Then H/D hand built my replacement engine as a stage IV. And I babied it for the next 1,000 miles and brought it to Florida and sumped it on the first trip. The 18 was a replacement after sumping the 17 with two replacement engines.
So my bike is sitting in a Florida dealership and H/D is getting me a second replacement bike. I told them to leave it totally stock. I requested a Mako Shark Fade and they had none available but were able to add 1 additional bike into production. It was officially assembled yesterday in York, Pa. and being shipped to Florida by the second week of January. I will say this, Harley Davidson is honestly going out of their way to make things right but I think H/D has had my bike for more days then I have?? Thank goodness I have a garage full of bikes. So as I told our rep, I will keep the bike stock for the winter and after Myrtle Beach I will ride it back to New York and go aftermarket for a fix unless H/D actually gives in and builds a completely different fix for this. Two years of this is not fun. Sad thing is I actually thought they fixed my 18 and just installed Yaffe bars, mirrors and other stuff which I will lose. Not to mention, two extended warranties I lost money on and one of the local Long Island dealers now hates me. Let's hope the 2019 makes it through a Florida winter. LOL I don't mean to laugh because it's cost me thousands in lost parts and labor but the alternative is to cry.
Post by: Heatwave on December 22, 2018, 09:48:45 AM
Heatwave, I sumped my totally stock 18 CVO the first time on a 40 mile ride. The bike had 168 miles on the odometer. Then the dealer took it out and cooked the engine. Then H/D hand built my replacement engine as a stage IV. And I babied it for the next 1,000 miles and brought it to Florida and sumped it on the first trip. The 18 was a replacement after sumping the 17 with two replacement engines.
So my bike is sitting in a Florida dealership and H/D is getting me a second replacement bike. I told them to leave it totally stock. I requested a Mako Shark Fade and they had none available but were able to add 1 additional bike into production. It was officially assembled yesterday in York, Pa. and being shipped to Florida by the second week of January. I will say this, Harley Davidson is honestly going out of their way to make things right but I think H/D has had my bike for more days then I have?? Thank goodness I have a garage full of bikes. So as I told our rep, I will keep the bike stock for the winter and after Myrtle Beach I will ride it back to New York and go aftermarket for a fix unless H/D actually gives in and builds a completely different fix for this. Two years of this is not fun. Sad thing is I actually thought they fixed my 18 and just installed Yaffe bars, mirrors and other stuff which I will lose. Not to mention, two extended warranties I lost money on and one of the local Long Island dealers now hates me. Let's hope the 2019 makes it through a Florida winter. LOL I don't mean to laugh because it's cost me thousands in lost parts and labor but the alternative is to cry.
I can only wish you the best with your 2019. Hopefully the new 2019 bike brings your sad saga to an end. Let us know how the new bike turns out.
Post by: SDCVO on December 22, 2018, 11:07:18 PM
some good news to report for a change, went about 250 miles today and bike ran great. Took about 6 videos of me checking the oil that I just deleted.. Hopefully more of the same tomorrow.More good news, 450 miles today with no issues. Maybe-maybe--
JC, not using the LED for anything other than the top of the dipstick I unscrew (though I may have "peeked" at it a few times and it was spot on to what the stick said..) :o
Post by: SDCVO on December 22, 2018, 11:10:18 PM
Post by: OBB on December 23, 2018, 07:06:16 AM
More good news, 450 miles today with no issues. Maybe-maybe--:2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: Ironhorse on December 23, 2018, 09:09:48 AM
I will say reading the tire thread where guys are getting 15000-20000 (some complaining about that..) miles on their tires kinda makes me understand why my motors keep sumping.
Sorry Alan,
But I’m not following this line of thought. How does tire mileage give you an understanding of why your engines keep sumping?
Mark
Post by: JCZ on December 23, 2018, 09:46:54 AM
I will say reading the tire thread where guys are getting 15000-20000 (some complaining about that..) miles on their tires kinda makes me understand why my motors keep sumping.
I've never got close to 1500 on a rear tire. Maybe that's cuz I'm tryin to keep up with you. :nixweiss: Are we riding Sat. or Sun?
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on December 23, 2018, 10:06:20 AM
More good news, 450 miles today with no issues. Maybe-maybe--
Really glad to hear that! Gives us hope. :)
I will say reading the tire thread where guys are getting 15000-20000 (some complaining about that..) miles on their tires kinda makes me understand why my motors keep sumping.
I have read that too. On the CVO's with M8 motors 12K is what I get on the rear, Prior to the M8 I was getting 18K or bit more except my 13K, the built motor that tires good for about 13K. Trying a American Elite on the rear of the king this time.
Sorry Alan,My following of it, is the harder your acceleration the more it wears the rear tire, the harder your braking the more the tires wear.
But I’m not following this line of thought. How does tire mileage give you an understanding of why your engines keep sumping?
Mark
I have often wondered how friends get 22K out of a rear and I get 9K or 10K less out of the rear. Ride with them in the curves, mountains and back roads, I it becomes more clear.
Post by: Ironhorse on December 23, 2018, 10:39:37 AM
Really glad to hear that! Gives us hope. :)
I have read that too. On the CVO's with M8 motors 12K is what I get on the rear, Prior to the M8 I was getting 18K or bit more except my 13K, the built motor that tires good for about 13K. Trying a American Elite on the rear of the king this time.
My following of it, is the harder your acceleration the more it wears the rear tire, the harder your braking the more the tires wear.
I have often wondered how friends get 22K out of a rear and I get 9K or 10K less out of the rear. Ride with them in the curves, mountains and back roads, I it becomes more clear.
That I understand. I’m just not seeing how tire mileage relates to all his engine sumping.
Post by: skratch on December 23, 2018, 02:32:07 PM
ride hard = more apt to sump....
higher mileage = less 'spirited' rider = less apt to sump
Post by: scottt on December 23, 2018, 03:44:18 PM
Why would a dealer hate you, just because your engine sumped?
Heatwave, I sumped my totally stock 18 CVO the first time on a 40 mile ride. The bike had 168 miles on the odometer. Then the dealer took it out and cooked the engine. Then H/D hand built my replacement engine as a stage IV. And I babied it for the next 1,000 miles and brought it to Florida and sumped it on the first trip. The 18 was a replacement after sumping the 17 with two replacement engines.
So my bike is sitting in a Florida dealership and H/D is getting me a second replacement bike. I told them to leave it totally stock. I requested a Mako Shark Fade and they had none available but were able to add 1 additional bike into production. It was officially assembled yesterday in York, Pa. and being shipped to Florida by the second week of January. I will say this, Harley Davidson is honestly going out of their way to make things right but I think H/D has had my bike for more days then I have?? Thank goodness I have a garage full of bikes. So as I told our rep, I will keep the bike stock for the winter and after Myrtle Beach I will ride it back to New York and go aftermarket for a fix unless H/D actually gives in and builds a completely different fix for this. Two years of this is not fun. Sad thing is I actually thought they fixed my 18 and just installed Yaffe bars, mirrors and other stuff which I will lose. Not to mention, two extended warranties I lost money on and one of the local Long Island dealers now hates me. Let's hope the 2019 makes it through a Florida winter. LOL I don't mean to laugh because it's cost me thousands in lost parts and labor but the alternative is to cry.
Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk
Post by: grc on December 23, 2018, 04:42:01 PM
ride hard = less tire mileage.
ride hard = more apt to sump....
higher mileage = less 'spirited' rider = less apt to sump
Higher RPM = more oil volume pumped into engine per mile or period of time, leading to sumping when the oil volume in the sump exceeds the ability of the oiling system to remove it promptly. Kind of like filling a bucket with a 1/2 gallon per minute hole in the bottom from a 1 gallon per minute spigot. Eventually the bucket will overflow.
Jerry
Post by: J.D. on December 23, 2018, 04:45:58 PM
Post by: SDCVO on December 23, 2018, 09:45:44 PM
I've never got close to 1500 on a rear tire. Maybe that's cuz I'm tryin to keep up with you. :nixweiss: Are we riding Sat. or Sun?im in, let me know what works for you
Post by: SDCVO on December 23, 2018, 09:48:03 PM
Higher RPM = more oil volume pumped into engine per mile or period of time, leading to sumping when the oil volume in the sump exceeds the ability of the oiling system to remove it promptly. Kind of like filling a bucket with a 1/2 gallon per minute hole in the bottom from a 1 gallon per minute spigot. Eventually the bucket will overflow.What he said..
Jerry
Post by: SDCVO on December 23, 2018, 09:50:20 PM
im in, let me know what works for youSat would work better for me if that works? Im sure the sooner Babe can get ride of you the better..
Post by: JCZ on December 23, 2018, 10:24:54 PM
That I understand. I’m just not seeing how tire mileage relates to all his engine sumping.
That's cuz you haven't rode with Alan. :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
Post by: JCZ on December 23, 2018, 10:26:31 PM
Sat would work better for me if that works? Im sure the sooner Babe can get ride of you the better..
Sat. works for me. I'll be at the Chula Vista Elk's Lodge (right next to the Mexico boarder)....where do you want to meet? What time?
Post by: Ironhorse on December 24, 2018, 12:00:30 AM
That's cuz you haven't rode with Alan. :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
Yes I have. In fact I talked him out of riding “the road less traveled” with you and Miguel. And it was a wise decision,...lol!
As for the topic, I’m calling BS on that. All things being even, if you can’t ride an engine hard for fear of sumping, there’s something wrong with the design of the engine.
But I could be wrong.
Post by: Robmay on December 24, 2018, 10:03:47 AM
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Post by: grc on December 24, 2018, 11:02:54 AM
Sumping is ABSOLUTELY NOT NORMAL OR ACCEPTABLE even if you ride the thing at redline all day long. If Harley can't make an engine that will run over 3000 rpm for extended periods, then perhaps they should set the rev limiters at 3000 rpm. I'm still not convinced the new seal on the oil pump cover is anything more than a band-aid. I also think they did not address the root cause, and until they do so the potential for failures will always be there under certain conditions.
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: skratch on December 24, 2018, 12:39:45 PM
i remember watching a video on hd testing stuff. letting a bike sit idling all day long in the hot sun without melting down. maybe they should have done a high rpm all day test......
Post by: Boatman on December 24, 2018, 02:36:47 PM
agreed with all the above ^^^^
i remember watching a video on hd testing stuff. letting a bike sit idling all day long in the hot sun without melting down. maybe they should have done a high rpm all day test......
HD does not test them, the people that buy them are the testers. Not just HD, but Ford, GM, Chrysler. Just look at the junk diesels Ford and GM has put out that has cost the end buyers millions-not thousands. 6.0PS, 6.4PS, Duramax
Post by: smkymtnboy on December 24, 2018, 06:03:50 PM
HD does not test them, the people that buy them are the testers. Not just HD, but Ford, GM, Chrysler. Just look at the junk diesels Ford and GM has put out that has cost the end buyers millions-not thousands. 6.0PS, 6.4PS, Duramaxyep,sure enough!!
Post by: SDCVO on December 25, 2018, 01:29:57 AM
Yes I have. In fact I talked him out of riding “the road less traveled” with you and Miguel.Still glad you talked me out of that!
Post by: SDCVO on December 25, 2018, 01:30:58 AM
Sumping is ABSOLUTELY NOT NORMAL OR ACCEPTABLE even if you ride the thing at redline all day long. If Harley can't make an engine that will run over 3000 rpm for extended periods, then perhaps they should set the rev limiters at 3000 rpm. I'm still not convinced the new seal on the oil pump cover is anything more than a band-aid. I also think they did not address the root cause, and until they do so the potential for failures will always be there under certain conditions.Couldnt agree more!
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on December 25, 2018, 08:34:59 AM
I don’t think anyone is saying it’s okay, just that it’s more than likely part of the cause.Exactly, no one is saying its okay. We are saying its why some do and some don't, different riding conditions and styles are why some do and some don't. Any riding style should be okay, if below red line.
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Sumping is ABSOLUTELY NOT NORMAL OR ACCEPTABLE even if you ride the thing at redline all day long. If Harley can't make an engine that will run over 3000 rpm for extended periods, then perhaps they should set the rev limiters at 3000 rpm. I'm still not convinced the new seal on the oil pump cover is anything more than a band-aid. I also think they did not address the root cause, and until they do so the potential for failures will always be there under certain conditions.
JMHO - Jerry
True. 3000 RPM is about 78mph, and if you ride that slow in some areas you will get run over. 4000 rpm all day long should be fine.
Post by: SDCVO on December 25, 2018, 11:27:36 PM
Exactly, no one is saying its okay. We are saying its why some do and some don't, different riding conditions and styles are why some do and some don't. Any riding style should be okay, if below red line.I shift at low 4000's (4200-4300) normally and usually run around 3800-4000 cruising. I will say that I on ly get to ride on the weekends so last weekend 1 went 380 miles and Sunday 350 only stopping each day for gas or coffee, never for more than 30 minutes which is fairly normal for me. No doubt when I get up in the mountains I will have an hour or so where I am running hard shifting around 5000 to 5300. I will say that everytime I have sumped it has been when I have gone over 200 miles so n to sure if maybe that has something to do with it. Again
True. 3000 RPM is about 78mph, and if you ride that slow in some areas you will get run over. 4000 rpm all day long should be fine.
Post by: smkymtnboy on December 26, 2018, 09:04:47 AM
I shift at low 4000's (4200-4300) normally and usually run around 3800-4000 cruising. I will say that I on ly get to ride on the weekends so last weekend 1 went 380 miles and Sunday 350 only stopping each day for gas or coffee, never for more than 30 minutes which is fairly normal for me. No doubt when I get up in the mountains I will have an hour or so where I am running hard shifting around 5000 to 5300. I will say that everytime I have sumped it has been when I have gone over 200 miles so n to sure if maybe that has something to do with it. Againthis has to be getting very frustrating for you. >:(
Post by: Phreakyz on December 26, 2018, 05:10:27 PM
I shift at low 4000's (4200-4300) normally and usually run around 3800-4000 cruising. I will say that I on ly get to ride on the weekends so last weekend 1 went 380 miles and Sunday 350 only stopping each day for gas or coffee, never for more than 30 minutes which is fairly normal for me. No doubt when I get up in the mountains I will have an hour or so where I am running hard shifting around 5000 to 5300. I will say that everytime I have sumped it has been when I have gone over 200 miles so n to sure if maybe that has something to do with it. Again
Remind me never to buy one of your used bikes! That sounds pretty extreme? 3 grand in 6th is like 80 mph? How fast are you traveling? Our bikes make their power lower in the rpm range? An hour at 5 grand? I don’t think these bikes are made for that kind of abuse. They are touring bikes. Cars that run in that band have solid lifters, heavy springs and are torn down frequently? Cars that can survive like that are over head cams with small cylinder displacements.
Just sayin....
Post by: smkymtnboy on December 26, 2018, 06:17:41 PM
Remind me never to buy one of your used bikes! That sounds pretty extreme? 3 grand in 6th is like 80 mph? How fast are you traveling? Our bikes make their power lower in the rpm range? An hour at 5 grand? I don’t think these bikes are made for that kind of abuse. They are touring bikes. Cars that run in that band have solid lifters, heavy springs and are torn down frequently? Cars that can survive like that are over head cams with small cylinder displacements.disagree
Just sayin....
Post by: Heatwave on December 26, 2018, 07:35:52 PM
Remind me never to buy one of your used bikes! That sounds pretty extreme? 3 grand in 6th is like 80 mph? How fast are you traveling? Our bikes make their power lower in the rpm range? An hour at 5 grand? I don’t think these bikes are made for that kind of abuse. They are touring bikes. Cars that run in that band have solid lifters, heavy springs and are torn down frequently? Cars that can survive like that are over head cams with small cylinder displacements.
Just sayin....
Sounds like a normal day of riding for me. He never said he runs at those higher rpms in 6th gear. His description of riding is exactly how I’ve ridden motorcycles for almost 50 years and is far from abnormal. The group I ride with ride almost he same way as Alan’s description. We’re experienced riders that have ridden hundreds of thousands of miles. I would hardly call this type of riding “abuse”. And in fact a motorcycle of the past 3-4 decades can and has handled this style of riding without issue.
Nothing wrong with riding leisurely with shifting at 3500 rpms but its not for me. I’d rather be in a car if I’m going to ride THAT leisurely.
Post by: BigLock on December 26, 2018, 08:58:08 PM
Post by: Heatwave on December 26, 2018, 09:21:11 PM
Well my 18 RG in the shop now for the clutch recall now it needs the oil pump replaced also I do ride hard. Most of my riding is interstate 80 to 85 until I need gas bike has 9600 miles. My 12 RG has been rode just as hard with 55000 miles and it hasn't been into still has stock lifters. So I didn't think it's riding style just a poor engineering design.
For the record, the HD Regional Rep stated that my riding style was a contributing factor to my M8 engines that sumped. But my riding style is no different that decades of riding on other bikes that never sumped. He just shrugged his shoulders and said he had to say riding style was a “contributor”. Go figure!
Post by: sadunbar on December 26, 2018, 10:53:03 PM
For the record, the HD Regional Rep stated that my riding style was a contributing factor to my M8 engines that sumped. But my riding style is no different that decades of riding on other bikes that never sumped. He just shrugged his shoulders and said he had to say riding style was a “contributor”. Go figure!
Yet another reason to add to my list of "this is why I will never buy another new Harley Davidson motorcycle". :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: SDCVO on December 26, 2018, 11:03:28 PM
Remind me never to buy one of your used bikes! That sounds pretty extreme? 3 grand in 6th is like 80 mph? How fast are you traveling? Our bikes make their power lower in the rpm range? An hour at 5 grand? I don’t think these bikes are made for that kind of abuse. They are touring bikes. Cars that run in that band have solid lifters, heavy springs and are torn down frequently? Cars that can survive like that are over head cams with small cylinder displacements.I couldn't disagree more with saying that is abuse! I don't do burnouts, wheelies, drop the clutch at stoplights. I bought the bike and installed the stage 4 that is made to run higher in the revs and that's where it makes its power. I ride the same now as I have my entire adult life (be 60 in July) and have never had issues like this on any motorcycle I have ever owned including my previous Harleys. I have a 12 Roadglide currently with 70000 miles. Also I try to never go more than 10 over speed limit on the freeways as I drive a company car and could lose it if I got to many points on my record. Currently have had 1 ticket in the last 5 years (thanks JC.. :))
Just sayin....
When I first sat down with the rep from moco he also tried to blame my riding style for my bike continuing to sump and was also implying I was abusing my bike actually saying that he saw on my work orders that I was going through rear tires about every 5000 miles. I said that obviously since he could see that I used that dealer to replace all my tires I would also use them to replace any broken belts, excessive brake wear etc and asked him if he saw any of that which he agreed that he didn't. As a point of information I replace my tires as soon as I start seeing the wear bars get close so though of course I still go through tires quickly, I am sure I could get another 1000 miles out of each if I really tried.
I have ridden with many here on this forum and I don't think anyone would agree with you that I abuse my motorcycle..
Post by: SDCVO on December 26, 2018, 11:12:02 PM
For the record, the HD Regional Rep stated that my riding style was a contributing factor to my M8 engines that sumped. But my riding style is no different that decades of riding on other bikes that never sumped. He just shrugged his shoulders and said he had to say riding style was a “contributor”. Go figure!Obviously this is the "go to" for all the reps at the moco. Disgusting
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on December 27, 2018, 08:56:53 AM
Remind me never to buy one of your used bikes! That sounds pretty extreme? 3 grand in 6th is like 80 mph? How fast are you traveling? Our bikes make their power lower in the rpm range? An hour at 5 grand? I don’t think these bikes are made for that kind of abuse. They are touring bikes. Cars that run in that band have solid lifters, heavy springs and are torn down frequently? Cars that can survive like that are over head cams with small cylinder displacements.
Just sayin....
Yep, 78 mph is 3000 rpm. Riding the mountains 3000 RPM and up to 4000 is where the bike does well.
Fully disagree on cars, may have been true in the 60's. My last two Corvettes, a 14 and now an 18 on the Track I shift at over 5000 RPM. Doesn't not have solid lifters, red line is 6500 rpm. Car is fully warrantied for track use. Not small displacement at 376 cubic inches, not overhead cam either. Mine is not even the very high performance supercharged version that is 750 HP, and still track warrantied.
At Ron Fellows Corvette performance driving school they run these cars almost every day, 8 hours a day on the track the whole time above 5000 rpm. They do not even tear the engine down yearly.
Post by: sadunbar on December 27, 2018, 09:43:44 AM
I couldn't disagree more with saying that is abuse! I don't do burnouts, wheelies, drop the clutch at stoplights. I bought the bike and installed the stage 4 that is made to run higher in the revs and that's where it makes its power. I ride the same now as I have my entire adult life (be 60 in July) and have never had issues like this on any motorcycle I have ever owned including my previous Harleys. I have a 12 Roadglide currently with 70000 miles. Also I try to never go more than 10 over speed limit on the freeways as I drive a company car and could lose it if I got to many points on my record. Currently have had 1 ticket in the last 5 years (thanks JC.. :))
When I first sat down with the rep from moco he also tried to blame my riding style for my bike continuing to sump and was also implying I was abusing my bike actually saying that he saw on my work orders that I was going through rear tires about every 5000 miles. I said that obviously since he could see that I used that dealer to replace all my tires I would also use them to replace any broken belts, excessive brake wear etc and asked him if he saw any of that which he agreed that he didn't. As a point of information I replace my tires as soon as I start seeing the wear bars get close so though of course I still go through tires quickly, I am sure I could get another 1000 miles out of each if I really tried.
I have ridden with many here on this forum and I don't think anyone would agree with you that I abuse my motorcycle..
Using your service records against you to build a bogus case, implying violation of the terms of warranty? Sounds like the MOCO representative is encouraging use of quality independents for routine maintenance.
Post by: mark on December 27, 2018, 04:49:10 PM
The MoCo is between a rock and a hard place. They're in financial distress, have introduced a new engine with a faulty oiling system that should be recalled and replaced with a properly functioning system. But, a recall that big would overwhelm service departments and bankrupt the company. For HD to claim their most high performance bikes can't be ridden hard is laughable and shows they're at the end of the line regarding excuses.
Post by: J.D. on December 27, 2018, 04:56:52 PM
Post by: Twolanerider on December 27, 2018, 06:22:55 PM
If a service representative (at any level) tells an owner not to ride a bike a certain way the only response should be "I rode it within the parameters allowed by the manufacturer's programming in the ECM and/or other management modules." If the company doesn't want it ridden at higher RPMs then program that level outside the flight envelope (then try selling the bikes that way).