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[Boatman]

I have no dog in this hunt and maybe shouldn’t reply. I have said many times that if Harley-Davidson offered a 4 or 5 year factory warranty they would go broke. 

Sumping on the new bikes.  Replacing my lifters and water pump on my own dime in less than 25k miles on my 14.  110. 

Most costly vehicle I have to maintain.  Also most  fun vehicle.  But it is getting old.  Won’t buy a new one. 

[Heatwave]

Well said Jerry.
Just sold my 2017. Did not trade in as usual.
I am looking at BMW. Test rode the K1600B!!   WOW  All I can say is WOW!!!
Fully understanding each brand has problems. Just tired of paying so much for a bike that requires so much more work!!!

For the record, my 2017 CVO Street glide sumped more times than I can remember. Every time I rode hard for a period of time it would sump.
Dealer said there is only a recall on 117 kits. I told them jugs have nothing to do with a sumping problem.
WTF Really!!!!

I think that was a very good move. I may be following your path so please share your final decision if you go with the BMW.

[bigdave110]

Will do!!

[happyman]

You do realize that comment makes no sense, right?  If Harley knows what it's doing as well as Porsche, why are we even having this discussion and why are they still having failures two years after releasing the M8 engines?  If Harley had such a talented staff, why did they have to subcontract the design of the Revolution engine to Porsche?  If Harley has such great experts on oiling systems, why did they have to delay the Twin Cam introduction due to oiling issues back in 1998/99?  Yes they've had dry sump engines going back to the 1930's.  But yes, they've also had plenty of serious issues over all those years as well.  And that's just the oiling system, let's not open up the rest of the can of worms concerning all the wonderful design and engineering issues they've produced over many decades.  What's worse than all the mistakes is their response to all those mistakes, which usually consists of blowing them off and making the customers eat the cost of fixing those mistakes. 

being a owner of a 17  CVO which has had multiple motors, some  pieced together as they try to do something  without looking at the complete picture at the start, to make one repair. more issues show up as  the techs do what they are told. you sit and have no ride for over half a season. then we have to wonder when, and where you will be when it fails again, and again. you cannot or dare not venture  more than a few miles from home cause it cost a lot for a tow. the time involved along with sitting roadside in the heat. unless something changes there are going to be  a lot of people in  months who are not going to be able to do a repair  unless  HD  awards  all bikes with  bad parts a warranty, because people do not have that kind of  $$ to keep tossing at a vehicle that should in this world go a hundred  thousand miles.   without the major failures.   it is tuff to imagine there is no to protect the people from this  BS going on and to date there seems to be no fix.  yes  so far they will do the repair . if you happen  to notice your bike sumps because you notice things and check things you take it to a dealer     the factory tech rep tell you it will be ok to ride and you are told to take the bike and ride it. Then   you have to  after a hand full of miles  take it back because the motor puked is a  damn shame.  so they  in effect are telling you to burn it down before you  take it to a dealer is what I get from it . you can call customer service and tell it like it is. they have the guts  to tell you  well its has warranty?  they missed  the point completely and if you9 say something then they will try to make you out to be the bad guy.    they wonder why sales are off.. they really cannot be the stupid ?. have heard people at dealerships living in denial its the rider,.    got news foro them . yes I guess iif you just purchase it to look at  and not ride it then yes its the rider , shameful bs  indeed.


Jerry

[odessyblueIke]

Running for any length of time at higher rpm's may in fact play a part in the sumping issue, but that doesn't mean people should blame those who ride at 4000 rpm versus chugging along at 2200 like many Harley riders tend to do.  The problem is fairly basic, there is more oil being pumped into the engine than is being returned to the oil pan, until the dry sump is overloaded with oil.  The oil pumps are constant displacement units, so the faster you spin them the more oil they pump.  Think about it.  At 4000 rpm for instance, in theory the pump can pump twice as much oil as it can at 2000 rpm.  If the return side of the system has a bottleneck that limits the amount of oil that can be sent back to the pan, and that bottleneck translates to only allowing enough flow to balance the supply side at 3000 rpm or less as an example, the guys running higher rpms for longer periods of time would be more likely to experience the problem.  A properly designed and manufactured system should be able to handle maximum rpms for extended periods of time with no backup of oil in the system.  If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't see dry sump engines in so many race cars.  I think I remember suggesting way back at the beginning of this saga that the aces at H-D might want to consult with the folks from Porsche if they couldn't quickly figure out this sumping issue.  Porsche doesn't have sumping problems running at more than double the rpms of Harley's engines.  And Porsche designed the most trouble free engine Harley has ever produced, the Revolution, proving it can be done but obviously not by the folks working at Harley.  Proving once again top quality engineering is much more important than just hanging your hat on styling for the past thirty years. 

JMHO - Jerry

I wasn't insinuating anyone was at fault, I was just curious if the problem was related to a higher constant RPM.   I  just stick to the recommended shift range in the manual. doesn't feel like its lugging at all.  I have spoke to several folks who pretty much run in the same range as I do, just to see if maybe I was doing something wrong.

[chinashop bull]

You do realize that comment makes no sense, right?  If Harley knows what it's doing as well as Porsche, why are we even having this discussion and why are they still having failures two years after releasing the M8 engines?  If Harley had such a talented staff, why did they have to subcontract the design of the Revolution engine to Porsche?  If Harley has such great experts on oiling systems, why did they have to delay the Twin Cam introduction due to oiling issues back in 1998/99?  Yes they've had dry sump engines going back to the 1930's.  But yes, they've also had plenty of serious issues over all those years as well.  And that's just the oiling system, let's not open up the rest of the can of worms concerning all the wonderful design and engineering issues they've produced over many decades.  What's worse than all the mistakes is their response to all those mistakes, which usually consists of blowing them off and making the customers eat the cost of fixing those mistakes. 

Jerry

Seems some here are not familiar with Porsche's own engine woes.  Look up M96 and later M97  engine IMS failures.  Here's a list for just that engine:
Rear Main Seal Leaks
Intermediate Shaft Bearing Failures
Cylinder Liner Cracks
Engine Casting Porosity
Chain Tensioner Failures
Cylinder Head Cracks
Cylinder Head Cracks
Connecting Rod Bolt Failures

A class action was taken in 2013 over the Intermediate Shaft Bearing Failures agreed to compensate owners of engines buikkt between 2001 and 2005.  That's up to 12 years for restitution.  Wow! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Intermediate_Shaft_Bearing_issue

Now if Harley has to replace each M8 with either a complete new motor or new pump and cases they will surely go broke.  I think they are on the right path even as I would prefer a fix now.


Variocam Solenoids

[grc]

I wasn't insinuating anyone was at fault, I was just curious if the problem was related to a higher constant RPM.   I  just stick to the recommended shift range in the manual. doesn't feel like its lugging at all.  I have spoke to several folks who pretty much run in the same range as I do, just to see if maybe I was doing something wrong.

No, you're not doing anything wrong.  My point was that people like you may never experience the sumping problem, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't real.  It also doesn't mean someone like you might not eventually decide to run your bike a bit harder than usual and then find your engine has a problem.  Based on what I've read so far about this issue, I have a feeling that any M8 has the potential to experience this issue.  Some may not fail until the customer finally decides to "air it out", or until they sell the bike to the next guy who rides in a more spirited manner.  If it happens after two years, good luck convincing Harley to step up and fix it.

JMHO - Jerry

[odessyblueIke]

No, you're not doing anything wrong.  My point was that people like you may never experience the sumping problem, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't real.  It also doesn't mean someone like you might not eventually decide to run your bike a bit harder than usual and then find your engine has a problem.  Based on what I've read so far about this issue, I have a feeling that any M8 has the potential to experience this issue.  Some may not fail until the customer finally decides to "air it out", or until they sell the bike to the next guy who rides in a more spirited manner.  If it happens after two years, good luck convincing Harley to step up and fix it.

JMHO - Jerry

.   Understood. Thanks

[RadRob]

First Thanks to everyone and their input be it Good, Bad or indifferent on the M8 though this very informative thread.
I haven't had any summing issues,(knock on wood) and Lord knows I'm not easy on my 17 CVO SG, however I usually only ride short distances (less than 1- 2 hrs.) and only about 4K mi in 13 months.
This, only my 2nd Harley, is the most responsive (and expensive) bike I've ever owned or ridden.

We just went through a week of 90+ degree weather last week, I noticed at stop lights the engine would labor especially if dropping one cylinder due to heat, but it acted like it wanted to stall.  After I revd 3-times and 2nd cylinder started back up but it still acted like it wanted to stall.
Taking off from the light the bike was little sluggish, a little more heat than usual......Obviously. however the bike wasn't as spunky as usual. 
not issues since that one day.

Anyway to test the bike for summing or I'll know it when it happens.

[Heatwave]

First Thanks to everyone and their input be it Good, Bad or indifferent on the M8 though this very informative thread.
I haven't had any summing issues,(knock on wood) and Lord knows I'm not easy on my 17 CVO SG, however I usually only ride short distances (less than 1- 2 hrs.) and only about 4K mi in 13 months.
This, only my 2nd Harley, is the most responsive (and expensive) bike I've ever owned or ridden.

We just went through a week of 90+ degree weather last week, I noticed at stop lights the engine would labor especially if dropping one cylinder due to heat, but it acted like it wanted to stall.  After I revd 3-times and 2nd cylinder started back up but it still acted like it wanted to stall.
Taking off from the light the bike was little sluggish, a little more heat than usual......Obviously. however the bike wasn't as spunky as usual. 
not issues since that one day.

Anyway to test the bike for summing or I'll know it when it happens.

Could be early signs of sumping or it could be nothing. Try turning off the EITMS just to eliminate that variable (see your manual on how to turn it off). Next time you start to feel what you described above after riding for an hr or so, make a point to ride further and try running a little higher rpms by dropping a gear as if you are trying to pass a vehicle. Then check the throttle responsiveness again by trying to accelerate hard. If you get less and less responsiveness as you ride and roll the throttle to accelerate, there's a good chance its sumping. Get the bike to the dealer and have them check the bike using SB1450.

[RadRob]

Thanks Heatwave,
Will do!
I really like this site and all the knowledge spread around like peanut butter. LOL

[chinashop bull]

Jerry, please post your comments after the /quote marker at the end of quoted text.

Like this.

[SDCVO]

Well, I promised I wouldn't keep boring everyone with my "adventure" with Harley with the multiple sumping but almost 7 months later there is finally a conclusion. Here is a pic (lousy pic, sorry. already dark when I picked up bike today) of the "end result". All mods that were on my 17 were either transferred or replaced by MoCo. This has been a very long complete PIA road that included me buying a BMW thinking that this deal wouldn't be settled for a year or two.
At the end of the day I love the BMW I got and absolutely love this Roadglide. I do think its the most beautiful CVO made yet and now just pray they have really fixed the issue. Time will certainly tell and will start tomorrow with about a 300 mile ride to Palm Springs. Perfect break in weather this weekend.
OK, now we can close this thread...

[FLSTFI Dave]

Let us know how it goes after you wring it out.  Hope its perfect for you.

[fastfreddy]

 very nice... hope she runs out as good as she looks     (or is it a he??)