I think we will have to agree to disagree. I wouldn’t disagree that there are those that bash the system on that forum (and some is absolutely personally motivated), but I also feel that some of the concerns are justified and only viewed by supporters as being bashing out of misunderstanding the concerns. I am a proud member of that forum and an admin there. Yes there are those that will use any area of weakness to try to pour salt in old wounds, but that doesn't mean that all the issues people have with the Mastertune system is just bashing. That also doesn't mean that the bashing that occurs is just one sided. There have been plenty of cases where defenders of the product have been the aggressor. The issue with locking an ECM is a real concern IMO. Sure some might blow that out of proportion in order to bring concerns about a product for spite, but there have been plenty of documented cases where folks were bitten by this issue that was unaware. Take the OP’s sold Vrod, if that ecm was locked by the TTS system…then that owner is likely going to find out well after buying that bike. I don't think the concern that the vtune process limits the available accurate population of the VE tables to something other than full operation mode is a bash. Having witnessed how lean the heavy throttle can be on some calibrations and still be agreeable to the vtune software, I don't think that's a trumped up bash at all. I also don't think that the current need to carry a computer for tuning is a trumped up attempt to bash. Some folks don't even own a laptop, so the fact that you currently need one shouldn't be viewed as an attack when someone brings that up. I had to replace the hard drive in one of my computers due to an error that occurred from damage from riding around with it strapped to my bike while vtuning. I would guess that Steve heard the concerns from his customers, which is why the new VCI has on-board recording. I also think that vtuning blind without a monitor to guide the tuner isn't a trumped up bash either. The advantage with closed course tuning using some sort of device to see what cells you have hit is a real advantage. I think Steve is combating that concern with a large on-board data storage ability, but there are still going to be some that prefer to have a screen to see exactly what is going on when they are trying to tune the ve cells. Unless I misunderstood him on a recent post, he has already at least considered the potential for a screen to go with the system in the future
Now with the above statements, one could easily view my opinions as biased against TTS Mastertune system. Although Steve Cole may not always agree, I've actually been an open supporter of the system since I started using in several years ago. I think it is a very nice system, and I currently use it on both of my efi bikes. That won't stop me from giving an unbiased opinion of areas of concern, even if that opinion is unfavorable and in conflict with the opinions of some other people's opinions. The trouble is some folks are just too biased in their beliefs to see that you can be respectfully critical of a product, and yet still supportive. I personally think that the only way to improve a product is to air out the potential negatives. If you look at some of the changes that Steve has made to his products, I think these aired out issues have been heard by him as well. He may not have appreciated the way they are/were aired, but I think the products continuous improvement is proof enough that he ultimately understood the concerns.
Mayor - I can agree with much of that. No product is perfect, including the TTS. Constructive feedback to vendors is valuable... even if it comes in strongly worded ways.
BUT, the reason I hang out on the CVOHarley forum these days is that it's just much more CIVIL here than on the other forum(s). You don't see the bashing here that you see elsewhere, and threads don't devolve into chit-throwing tussles. Neal and the mods here just won't put up with crap like that... and I like that a lot. HDF is much worse in some ways than HTT is... but that's neither here nor there.
I understand that some people have a concern about the ECM "locking". But it's there for a very good reason - to prevent some Yay-Hoo in a service dept from reflashing the ECM because the Digital Technician says it doesn't understand something it's seeing - thereby zapping the owners tune. I think that's the right approach, frankly... to protect the calibration. But that has caused problems in at least one case I read about, in which the dealer replaced the ECM because of the DT "error", thereby rendering the TTS useless. It's probably happened more that just that one time.
A TTS should
always go with the bike when it's sold. It can't be used on any other bike to flash in a cal anyway. This is not an obvious point, however... and many buyers likely don't even think of such a need when they buy a used bike, either privately or from a dealer. I think that the onus to include the TTS in the sale of the bike on which it's been used to tune is on the seller. The OP was given totally BS advice by the salesman, whoever that was... but that wasn't the OP's fault. There are probably many TTS users out there who have not actually used the TTS themselves, but rather have paid for a pro tune where the tuner used the TTS. Thus, the owners may not even be aware of much of anything about the tuning device that was used - much less that it "locks" the ECM, nor even that it marries itself TO that ECM when it's first used to flash in a cal.
So, Seller Beware AND Buyer Beware would both seem to apply to cases such as this.
Ken