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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: laylonlor on November 25, 2009, 07:10:43 PM
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what is the diff. in a stock 103 cvo motor, vrs a stock 110 cvo motor, and whats the diff., when both have a stage one upgrade?
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what is the diff. in a stock 103 cvo motor, vrs a stock 110 cvo motor, and whats the diff., when both have a stage one upgrade?
You will have to be a little more specific (year of motors), these guys around here will need to know that before a good answer can be given.
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04 103 ci cvo seeg, hp? vrs. 2010 cvo 110 ci street glide hp?,
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Good question. I don't know of anybody that ever dynoed a stock motor on a 103 or a 110. As we all know, dynoing is expensive and nobody ever wanted to spend the money for no gain.
Everybody gets a base run (starting point) but that generally after the mod has been performed and before they start tuning it for peak performance.
You can see the stock HP that the MoCo claimed back then vs. what they're claiming now however, that doesn't show torque.
Seat of the pants torque...... I believe the 110 has more torque than my stock 103 had. But I think the numbers were greater with a 103 with simple mods such as, air cleaner, exhaust, cams and tuner. My SEEG pumped 104 HP and 113 TQ. I don't see a 110 doing that with just an air cleaner, exhaust, cams and tuner. :nixweiss: I'll find out in just a couple of weeks. :2vrolijk_21:
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My 07 se springer 94hp 114 tq,2-1 reinhardt,zippers ac,and sert,my buddys 04 seeg same mods 97 hp 103 tq,differnt dyno
it would be hard to tell unless they were dyno'd at the same time and place.
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There's NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT!!! A properly tuned 110 can always be built more powerful than the 103. Even in stock form with breather, pipes and tuner. Will it last is what you should wanna know! ;)
Hoist! :coolblue:
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There's NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT!!! A properly tuned 110 can always be built more powerful than the 103. Even in stock form with breather, pipes and tuner. Will it last is what you should wanna know! ;)
Hoist! :coolblue:
Howie, his question was stock vs. a stage 1.
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i agree jcz, i think my 103 cvo was easier to get 100 hp, than this new 110cvo, from what i've been reading,, i was asking, in either form stock vrs stock or stage 1, vers stage 1, i think the 103 ci cvo, is more bang for the buck
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But I think the numbers were greater with a 103 with simple mods such as, air cleaner, exhaust, cams and tuner. My SEEG pumped 104 HP and 113 TQ. I don't see a 110 doing that with just an air cleaner, exhaust, cams and tuner. :nixweiss: I'll find out in just a couple of weeks. :2vrolijk_21:
My "07 with PC3, pipes, 251 cam, cleaner: 108, 112. I say a dyno sheet with the same cams but T.H. pipes and a sert = 113, 117
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I just got 2010 cvo ultra, have already checked into building up motor, with cams, heads ported, air cleaner, and exhaust you will get 106 hp and 113 tq. I've seen the dyno sheets and have drove an 09 that had this done.
Vic
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Here are two comparisons, unfortunately like has been said no one Dyno's before the mods are done.
These are both 2006 SE Ultra's with 103's
Mine was done in CA at sea level, I added the original SE Slip on mufflers & the SE high flow air cleaner. It produced 86 hp & 94 torq base run & with tuning produced 95 hp & 102 torque
The other belongs to a friend & was done here in Reno (4500') at Freedom by Brad, he added the SE high flow AC & the Freedom Elite D pipes. It produced 100 hp & 100 torque. The base run was not a comparison as he had other pipes on it & had it tuned with them.
Obviously the YB Elite D pipes make a huge difference over the SE slip ons.
Now mine with the new 103 motor, YB Pistons, Slight head work that included blending & larger intake valves, YB13 cams, & the Elite D pipes now produces 104 hp & 114 torque at 4500'.
Remember elevation, temperature, humidity all have an effect when comparing performance. Dyno reading are a snapshot in time based on all effecting environmental factors. The computers that control our motors do a very good job of compensating for all of these factors when compared with a few years ago when trying to make a carbureted motor perform.
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Howie, his question was stock vs. a stage 1.
Stock don't even count. Stock IS Stage 1 as far as I'm concerned, and I stand by my statement. And anything more than that too. Any work done apples to apples, the larger motor will win is all I'm sayin. ;)
Hoist! :coolblue:
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Stock don't even count. Stock IS Stage 1 as far as I'm concerned, and I stand by my statement. And anything more than that too. Any work done apples to apples, the larger motor will win is all I'm sayin. ;)
Hoist! :coolblue:
Yep!
I figured this out years ago......
If you wanna go fast, go BIG!
I use that thought for my hot rods, AND my bikes!!!
Of course, this is just my 2cents!!!
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There's NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT!!! A properly tuned 110 can always be built more powerful than the 103. Even in stock form with breather, pipes and tuner. Will it last is what you should wanna know! ;)
Hoist! :coolblue:
Yes there is, reliability!! :P
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You can find both stock and Stage 1 numbers for an '09 Serg here (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=27693.0). After a brief search in the SEEG area, I found this chart which claims to shows stock, Stage 1, and two additional configurations for the CVO 103. Stock numbers seem to be above what most others reported.
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Stock don't even count. Stock IS Stage 1 as far as I'm concerned, and I stand by my statement. And anything more than that too. Any work done apples to apples, the larger motor will win is all I'm sayin. ;)
Hoist! :coolblue:
It doesn't count to you.....however, it does count to the person that asked the question and started this thread. To him, everything else is irrelevant. :nixweiss:
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I just got 2010 cvo ultra, have already checked into building up motor, with cams, heads ported, air cleaner, and exhaust you will get 106 hp and 113 tq. I've seen the dyno sheets and have drove an 09 that had this done.
Vic
With head work you can get the numbers on a 110 that we were getting on the 103. My 103 didn't have any head.....just cams, exhaust, air cleaner and tuner.....104 HP and 116 Tq. I don't think you can get those numbers from 110 by just doing air cleaner, exhaust, cams and tuner. I believe it takes a little more (like head work). :nixweiss:
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Yes on the 110 to get those #'s they dealer was porting the heads and changing the pistons for more comp. I think it was 10to1
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You can find both stock and Stage 1 numbers for an '09 Serg here (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=27693.0). After a brief search in the SEEG area, I found this chart which claims to shows stock, Stage 1, and two additional configurations for the CVO 103. Stock numbers seem to be above what most others reported.
From this chart, it shows 6000RPM which is above factory limits I believe. A SERT must have been used.
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Good question. I don't know of anybody that ever dynoed a stock motor on a 103 or a 110. As we all know, dynoing is expensive and nobody ever wanted to spend the money for no gain.
Everybody gets a base run (starting point) but that generally after the mod has been performed and before they start tuning it for peak performance.
You can see the stock HP that the MoCo claimed back then vs. what they're claiming now however, that doesn't show torque.
Seat of the pants torque...... I believe the 110 has more torque than my stock 103 had. But I think the numbers were greater with a 103 with simple mods such as, air cleaner, exhaust, cams and tuner. http://[font=Verdana]My SEEG pumped 104 HP and 113 TQ. I don't see a 110 doing that with just an air cleaner, exhaust, cams and tuner.[/font] :nixweiss: I'll find out in just a couple of weeks. :2vrolijk_21:
Those are just about the exact numbers Steve got on his dyno with mine a few weeks ago... Andrews 54's, 2.25 cores, no cat. The baseline run used SE Mufflers, stock cams, and it turned out the cat had been drilled... if memory serves be correctly that came up at 90hp and 101 torque. Charts posted in exhaust thread...
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With head work you can get the numbers on a 110 that we were getting on the 103. My 103 didn't have any head.....just cams, exhaust, air cleaner and tuner.....104 HP and 116 Tq. I don't think you can get those numbers from 110 by just doing air cleaner, exhaust, cams and tuner. I believe it takes a little more (like head work). :nixweiss:
Well he didn't ask about cams either! Unless trying to find fault with my replies, is the only purpose of your replies to me here!!! ??? ::)
And a 103 can never do what a 110 can do, APPLES TO APPLES!!!!! Not a difficult concept to get hold of here JC!!! :P :D ;)
Hoist! :coolblue:
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:2vrolijk_21: ;D
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Well he didn't ask about cams either! Unless trying to find fault with my replies, is the only purpose of your replies to me here!!! ??? ::)
And a 103 can never do what a 110 can do, APPLES TO APPLES!!!!! Not a difficult concept to get hold of here JC!!! :P :D ;)
Hoist! :coolblue:
You're right....cams weren't a part of his question and so that part of my reply is irrelevant to him. "Trying to find fault"....come on Howie, you're not that insecure. I was simply pointing out (like you did with me) that your reply had nothing to do with his question. Nothing more said, meant or implied. I'm sorry you took it that way.
If you want to think a stage 1 110" will out perform a stage 1 103", you're entitle to. :2vrolijk_21:
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Regarding someone who said they didn't know anyone who dynoed a before as well and an after mods were made on a 110. I did. My numbers were 10% higher both in torque and hp after adding Rineharts, Stage I air, and a SERT. My final numbers were 91 hp and 110 ft-lb torque. Max numbers don't tell the whole story, shape of the torque curve was my primary interest. I rarely run the motor >3000 rpm.
T
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My 2009 stage II 103 (same cams as the Stage I 110, basic difference 7 cubes) will outpull a Stage I 110 CVO. It does have a TTS and Fulsac muffler cores, so still not exactly apples to apples. I would like to see my 103 up next to a 110 with TTS and Fulsac cores for a real comparison. Apples to apples, I don't think the 110 has as much advantage over the 103 as the 103 had over the 88, or 95, but that's just my opinion. Also need to see a couple of years of the 110 without any motor problems before I would trust one. HP doesn't seem to have much bearing on either motor if running the 255 cams. That TQ curve is really what moves it.
jb
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Regarding someone who said they didn't know anyone who dynoed a before as well and an after mods were made on a 110. I did. My numbers were 10% higher both in torque and hp after adding Rineharts, Stage I air, and a SERT. My final numbers were 91 hp and 110 ft-lb torque. Max numbers don't tell the whole story, shape of the torque curve was my primary interest. I rarely run the motor >3000 rpm.
T
That's pretty much what we found out here, my 96" my 103" my friends 110".
About 10% plus or minus before and after HP and torque gains.
The 2 smaller engines have the same setup as far as intake and ex. the 110 has Rineharts. All with TTS, otherwise the bikes are stock.
My 103 will stay with the 110, due to total weight differences (mine is a little lighter) AND riders.
Are we comparing apples to apples......well.......yes, not counting the riding part! LOL
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My 2009 stage II 103 (same cams as the Stage I 110, basic difference 7 cubes) will outpull a Stage I 110 CVO. It does have a TTS and Fulsac muffler cores, so still not exactly apples to apples. I would like to see my 103 up next to a 110 with TTS and Fulsac cores for a real comparison. Apples to apples, I don't think the 110 has as much advantage over the 103 as the 103 had over the 88, or 95, but that's just my opinion. Also need to see a couple of years of the 110 without any motor problems before I would trust one. HP doesn't seem to have much bearing on either motor if running the 255 cams. That TQ curve is really what moves it.
jb
That would be interesting, but, remember the 110 IS different, not just the cams.
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Regarding someone who said they didn't know anyone who dynoed a before as well and an after mods were made on a 110. I did. My numbers were 10% higher both in torque and hp after adding Rineharts, Stage I air, and a SERT. My final numbers were 91 hp and 110 ft-lb torque. Max numbers don't tell the whole story, shape of the torque curve was my primary interest. I rarely run the motor >3000 rpm.
T
Interesting. If you don't mind me asking.......why would you pay the money for a dyno pull on a totally stock bike? Just curious.
I'm equally curious what rpm range you normally ride in? You said you rarely run the motor in the 3000 rpm range. Are you normally riding in the 4k to 5k rpm range? :nixweiss:
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why would you pay the money for a dyno pull on a totally stock bike?
I wanted to know the degree of improvement over stock.
I'm equally curious what rpm range you normally ride in?
I normally run 2000 - 2800 rpm range
T
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I had the dealership do a "bone stock" (exactly as the bike was from the factory) SEUC 110 dyno run before my engine build. It was no additional charge as both the dealer and I wanted to know how much improvement the build would achieve. Here's the bone stock dyno.
77hp & 100 ft/lbs
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I had the dealership do a "bone stock" (exactly as the bike was from the factory) SEUC 110 dyno run before my engine build. It was no additional charge as both the dealer and I wanted to know how much improvement the build would achieve. Here's the bone stock dyno.
77hp & 100 ft/lbs
Do you have the "after"?
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I had the dealership do a "bone stock" (exactly as the bike was from the factory) SEUC 110 dyno run before my engine build. It was no additional charge as both the dealer and I wanted to know how much improvement the build would achieve. Here's the bone stock dyno.
77hp & 100 ft/lbs
So my guess that the stock 110 doe have more power than the stock 103 (based on HD's claims at the time.....which we all know was/is higher than actual). And this is why I said (when I bought the 10 SESG, that I was impressed with the stock power. Put a tuner behind those stock numbers (to richen it up a bit) and you'll have a pretty nice running "stock" bike. :2vrolijk_21:
I'm with Hogmike....like to see the after numbers and what you did to it?
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Do you have the "after"?
I'm not done with the tuning or the build. So far I've done the following:
- Headwork done by Hillside (10.5:1)
- SE Roller Rockers
- S&S valve springs
- 58mm Throttlebody
- 5.3gm/sec SE injectors
- Woods 408-6 cams
- SE Adjustable pushrods
- SuperTuner
- Ventilator Air Cleaner
I also had the cat removed from the stock headpipe and replaced the stock baffles with Fullsac 2.25's. Unfortunately I believe (and the tuner) that this exhaust setup is really holding the engine back. The original tune by the dealership resulted in 114/114 but the low speed throttle response was simply unacceptable. After retuning the bike its now at 110/110 but well below its potential for this engine build which should be around 120/120.
Next week I install D&D Boss FatCat exhaust and the dealership is sending their 2 Master Techs back to Harley school in the first week of Jan. to get more experience with the new SuperTuner. They will take my bike back in the middle of January to retune it at no charge. Hopefully they get enough training with the 2010 SuperTuner to make a difference. If not, the bike is off to a more experienced tuner to get it dialed in before the spring. Hopefully I'll have a "dialed-in" dyno graph to post by mid-Jan.
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I'm not done with the tuning or the build. So far I've done the following:
- Headwork done by Hillside (10.5:1)
- SE Roller Rockers
- S&S valve springs
- 58mm Throttlebody
- 5.3gm/sec SE injectors
- Woods 408-6 cams
- SE Adjustable pushrods
- SuperTuner
- Ventilator Air Cleaner
I also had the cat removed from the stock headpipe and replaced the stock baffles with Fullsac 2.25's. Unfortunately I believe (and the tuner) that this exhaust setup is really holding the engine back. The original tune by the dealership resulted in 114/114 but the low speed throttle response was simply unacceptable. After retuning the bike its now at 110/110 but well below its potential for this engine build which should be around 120/120.
Next week I install D&D Boss FatCat exhaust and the dealership is sending their 2 Master Techs back to Harley school in the first week of Jan. to get more experience with the new SuperTuner. They will take my bike back in the middle of January to retune it at no charge. Hopefully they get enough training with the 2010 SuperTuner to make a difference. If not, the bike is off to a more experienced tuner to get it dialed in before the spring. Hopefully I'll have a "dialed-in" dyno graph to post by mid-Jan.
With your build now, I would expect that you should see those numbers!
One of my friends has a hot 107 that is there, and my "mild" 113 is there. You should have no problem getting there with a good tune.
Keep us updated when you get it back on the dyno.
Good luck!
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My 2009 stage II 103 (same cams as the Stage I 110, basic difference 7 cubes) will outpull a Stage I 110 CVO. It does have a TTS and Fulsac muffler cores, so still not exactly apples to apples. I would like to see my 103 up next to a 110 with TTS and Fulsac cores for a real comparison. Apples to apples, I don't think the 110 has as much advantage over the 103 as the 103 had over the 88, or 95, but that's just my opinion. Also need to see a couple of years of the 110 without any motor problems before I would trust one. HP doesn't seem to have much bearing on either motor if running the 255 cams. That TQ curve is really what moves it.
jb
JB,
The 103 Stage II kit produces 10:1 compression with the flat top pistons and stock heads on an '09, slightly less on the 2010 (9.7:1). If it can out pull a Stage I CVO 110 (9.3 CR for 2009 and 9.15 CR for 2010), that's the reason why. Everything else being equal, the additional 6% displacement of the 110 will provide more power. It's a bigger pump.
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Interesting. If you don't mind me asking.......why would you pay the money for a dyno pull on a totally stock bike? Just curious.
JCZ,
I know it was a long time ago, but according to post #5 on this thread (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=466.0). You claimed 84.3 HP and 89.8 lb ft of torque on your stock SEEG. Why did you do a dyno pull on a totally stock bike? :nixweiss:
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JB,
The 103 Stage II kit produces 10:1 compression with the flat top pistons and stock heads on an '09, slightly less on the 2010 (9.7:1). If it can out pull a Stage I CVO 110 (9.3 CR for 2009 and 9.15 CR for 2010), that's the reason why. Everything else being equal, the additional 6% displacement of the 110 will provide more power. It's a bigger pump.
Hey, thanks for that info. I wasn't sure why the 103 pulls so good, but didn't realize the compression difference.
jb
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Hey, thanks for that info. I wasn't sure why the 103 pulls so good, but didn't realize the compression difference.
jb
Between the narrow timing of the SE-255 and the added compression I'll bet it pulls real nice. :2vrolijk_21:
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I dyno'd my stock 2003 FLHRSE2 in 2003. I put Vance and Hines slip ons and that is it. The dealer told me it had a Sreamin Eagle filter and Stage 1 down load from the factory! The dealers didn't know much about the 103 at that time. I was disappointed with 80 HP and 85 Lbs torque, but have found that is common "true" numbers. Later I added air filter, Yuill Brothers true duals and YB14SE cams, gear drives and race tuner and brought it up to 100 HP and 110 Lbs torque "true" numbers!
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what is the diff. in a stock 103 cvo motor, vrs a stock 110 cvo motor, and whats the diff., when both have a stage one upgrade?
the one thing that wil make a huge differance is the fact the older bike has a 5 speed gearbox and lot differant gear ratio. the losses of the new bikes theought the gears and gearing is a factor, put that 110" in a 5 speed bike and then dyno it. results wil be differant than if the same motor is in the early model bike just the way it is unfortunately.
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At my dealer they always do a stock pull ,after parts install pull and a finish tune pull.That way you can see how good of work they do. when I asked about the limited hp 70-80 range and 110 stock 75-90s range and they said their is alot spread on the bikes with same motors showing alot of inconsistaincy . ride safe jdo
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At my dealer they always do a stock pull ,after parts install pull and a finish tune pull.That way you can see how good of work they do. when I asked about the limited hp 70-80 range and 110 stock 75-90s range and they said their is alot spread on the bikes with same motors showing alot of inconsistaincy . ride safe jdo
true. but the spread between the early model 5 speed, and the late model 6 speed comparing hp and tq using same parts will be much differant..
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:2vrolijk_21:
Yep about 10%
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:2vrolijk_21:
Yep about 10%
dynoed my new Ultra LTd after i had three thousand miles on it. had some low numbers but its amazing how good it feels even with the numbers. 65.7 hp and 76.5 tq. but the new gear ratios make it feel like more
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dynoed my new Ultra LTd after i had three thousand miles on it. had some low numbers but its amazing how good it feels even with the numbers. 65.7 hp and 76.5 tq. but the new gear ratios make it feel like more
Happyman,
Review the changes in HP & TQ with a few mods in the post Dyno Results on my 103" 2010 ULTRA Limited. Did not take a lot.
geezerglide
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Happyman,
Review the changes in HP & TQ with a few mods in the post Dyno Results on my 103" 2010 ULTRA Limited. Did not take a lot.
geezerglide
ya have a crane 300-2 cam,i may slap in. also have the 255 cams setting here that come out of the 07 cvo. a cat free exhaust, decent mufflers. and a aircleaner and should be close to 85 hp and 100 tq. should be good enough for for what i do. been down the road of real good builds but them days are over. if i want to go fast i get on the 07 sportster. its basically stock now but pretty quick. may just give it a little more and it will run real good. but kinda getting that out of the system at my age.
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ya have a crane 300-2 cam,i may slap in. also have the 255 cams setting here that come out of the 07 cvo. a cat free exhaust, decent mufflers. and a aircleaner and should be close to 85 hp and 100 tq. should be good enough for for what i do. been down the road of real good builds but them days are over. if i want to go fast i get on the 07 sportster. its basically stock now but pretty quick. may just give it a little more and it will run real good. but kinda getting that out of the system at my age.
Uh oh..........
here we go......comparing who's oldest!
I have found the new 96-110 are pretty good power, at least for what I do.
I still have a "need for speed", but, that's why I have my hot rod bagger!
For touring, and 2-up, that's what these bikes are for, right?
It does not take much to get great power, like said: simple cam change, intake, exhaust, good tune, and you have it.....wanna go fast? Get a V-Rod!
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Uh oh..........
here we go......comparing who's oldest!
I have found the new 96-110 are pretty good power, at least for what I do.
I still have a "need for speed", but, that's why I have my hot rod bagger!
For touring, and 2-up, that's what these bikes are for, right?
It does not take much to get great power, like said: simple cam change, intake, exhaust, good tune, and you have it.....wanna go fast? Get a V-Rod!
ya the v-rod will do pretty good. just not my cup of tea. they do seem to pull prety good from 70 mph to 130. i don't consider my bagger to be a hot rod with no more output than its gonna have. the 07 CVO i had i guess you could call that a half assed hot rod. right at 108 hp and 120 tq and it had the 3:15 gear and it wojuld rip. the dyno used is a honest dyo. if it were on some of the dyno i see now and again it would have 120hp 130 tq. alli know for sure it ran good and was a nice looking bike.
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I picked up yhe bike from SBC today drove it from Tempe on the 202 to Centrla Phoenix and uo and down the highay befor traffic got stupid, and it sure has got a lot of juice compared to the old 103". I was really impressed could not believe it was the same bike. It was only 70 deg F, of course it ran a lot cooler, will keep you all inormed on the way it runs, so far great.
The Supertrapp Fatshotz with the CAT removed (Fullsac) sound great and love the look of the HD Ventilator AC. I'll get some pictures tommorrow.
geezerglide
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I picked up yhe bike from SBC today drove it from Tempe on the 202 to Centrla Phoenix and uo and down the highay befor traffic got stupid, and it sure has got a lot of juice compared to the old 103". I was really impressed could not believe it was the same bike. It was only 70 deg F, of course it ran a lot cooler, will keep you all inormed on the way it runs, so far great.
The Supertrapp Fatshotz with the CAT removed (Fullsac) sound great and love the look of the HD Ventilator AC. I'll get some pictures tommorrow.
geezerglide
sounds like you are having fun