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[FLHRSE3]

I just pulled the trigger on my first mod. Doherty PowerPacc with Power Vents.  Now I just need to decide on how to keep that air flowing on the other end.  If anyone is interested, it is their “Smokin’ Deal of the Day” for $250, saves a few bucks.

Gregg

http://www.dohertymachine.com/dod.php

[Midnight Rider]

Gregg...that's a good deal on a great product...after reading Beagles comments on the improvements made to Los Dragon, and seeing the results of a higher flow A/C on my own bike while on the dyno, I bit...

[Twolanerider]

Gregg...that's a good deal on a great product...after reading Beagles comments on the improvements made to Los Dragon, and seeing the results of a higher flow A/C on my own bike while on the dyno, I bit...

It's official, TC has the worst OCD on the site.

[SPIDERMAN]

ALCON,
          I have no financial interest in Doherty Machine, don't even know Tim Doherty except as a voice on the end of the phone so you can believe me when I say this is the best money you'll ever spend on your motorcycle.

Big B

[Fired00d]

It's official, TC has the worst OCD on the site.

Where you been, you just realizing that? [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Midnight Rider]

A feller can't get a break here at all, can he?  

[FLHRSE3]

Thanks for the encouragement, I had to really think hard about spending $250 on a new air cleaner setup but it is one of the few products that I have never read a bad word about and it appears that it could prove to result in some cheap and easy performance gains.

Gregg

[Twolanerider]

A feller can't get a break here at all, can he?  

Terry, just had an potentially consequential thought.  If your engine upgrades are going the Zippers route you'll like want to hold off on buying this new air cleaner.  That engine kit includes their intake and throttle body.  It mounts the air cleaner a bit differently and they say you can only use their air cleaner kit (supplied with the package) with their intake.

[RJ749]

Terry, just had an potentially consequential thought.  If your engine upgrades are going the Zippers route you'll like want to hold off on buying this new air cleaner.  That engine kit includes their intake and throttle body.  It mounts the air cleaner a bit differently and they say you can only use their air cleaner kit (supplied with the package) with their intake.

Don I think you're correct, TC you need to off that thing cheap?  PM  me

[Midnight Rider]

Terry, just had an potentially consequential thought.  If your engine upgrades are going the Zippers route you'll like want to hold off on buying this new air cleaner.  That engine kit includes their intake and throttle body.  It mounts the air cleaner a bit differently and they say you can only use their air cleaner kit (supplied with the package) with their intake.

Don, thanks for thinking of that...and I had already considered that fact...but, since that work is a year off, I figured what the hell, might as well give what I've got right now a bit more air.  I would never have believed that the SE A/C did not flow enough air for a stock (other than pipes) 103, but it was proven to me on back to back Dyno runs on my bike, and this was one of the A/C recommended by the tuner to provide those same results.  Just another 3 or 4 hp and about that much torque, so I guess it's worth it... [smiley=nixweiss.gif]  Eventually, I'm going to have a bunch of used parts to sell....they're piling up...

[RJ749]

Don, thanks for thinking of that...and I had already considered that fact...but, since that work is a year off, I figured what the hell, might as well give what I've got right now a bit more air.  I would never have believed that the SE A/C did not flow enough air for a stock (other than pipes) 103, but it was proven to me on back to back Dyno runs on my bike, and this was one of the A/C recommended by the tuner to provide those same results.  Just another 3 or 4 hp and about that much torque, so I guess it's worth it... [smiley=nixweiss.gif]  Eventually, I'm going to have a bunch of used parts to sell....they're piling up...

Ewwww, dang it, better order my own.

[Twolanerider]

Don, thanks for thinking of that...and I had already considered that fact...but, since that work is a year off, I figured what the hell, might as well give what I've got right now a bit more air.  I would never have believed that the SE A/C did not flow enough air for a stock (other than pipes) 103, but it was proven to me on back to back Dyno runs on my bike, and this was one of the A/C recommended by the tuner to provide those same results.  Just another 3 or 4 hp and about that much torque, so I guess it's worth it... [smiley=nixweiss.gif]  Eventually, I'm going to have a bunch of used parts to sell....they're piling up...

Good deal.  Glad it was part of the overall equation then.  When the time comes there is a peculiar particular crowd of people you might be aware who will likely give you most of your money back on the Doherty unit too  [smiley=drink.gif] .

[110tHunDer]

 
It's blue! [smiley=nervous.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

What's the three sentence explanation on what that does that a regular SE air cleaner setup doesn't?

[Midnight Rider]

Good deal.  Glad it was part of the overall equation then.  When the time comes there is a peculiar particular crowd of people you might be aware who will likely give you most of your money back on the Doherty unit too  [smiley=drink.gif] .

Yea, I'll put this on, then sell the "Roll Your Own" kit to some deserving soul, run this system for a while, then have your problem at some point in '07, trying to come up with a cover for the Zipper's kit...maybe by then something will turn up.

[Midnight Rider]

It's blue! [smiley=nervous.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

What's the three sentence explanation on what that does that a regular SE air cleaner setup doesn't?

Here's a few sentences about claimed benefits from American Rider (one of several on the Doherty website)

Performance Tech
For several years the Harley-Davidson Screamin' Eagle High Flow Air Cleaner Kit has been the preferred standard for many hop-up enthusiasts. These days, however, there are several alternatives. Doherty's Power PACC is one of them.

The PowerPACC kit is claimed to improve airflow by 15 percent. It includes a machined billet back plate that bolts directly to the heads, eliminating external brackets; a washable fabric air filter; and a one-piece venturi that snaps into place creating smooth unobstructed airflow.

Complete instructions and hardware are also incuded. Stock and aftermarket air-filter covers bolt right on; we ordered our kit with Doherty's own optional round cover.

The optional PowerVent Twin Kit eliminates the need for a separate breather tube between the cylinder heads. These one-way valves vent crackcase pressure while preventing back-flow into the case.

We installed both of the kits on a 2003 Deuce, owned by Rick Barnard, American Rider's IT technician. Our installation went without any glitches or confusion; the kits were complete and the instructions were clear. It took about two hours, even while pausing for photos.

We all liked the clean looks of the Doherty setup. Rick reported that his Deuce ran just fine without any remapping or fiddling with the EFI system. His Deuce is equipped with Hard-Krom's Sideburner 2-into-1 system. He said that the bike responds more quickly and crisply to the throttle. "It just feels more peppy," he said.

[Bagger]

Yea, I'll put this on, then sell the "Roll Your Own" kit to some deserving soul, run this system for a while, then have your problem at some point in '07, trying to come up with a cover for the Zipper's kit...maybe by then something will turn up.

WOW Terry.   I was looking hard at this thing, and it is tempting, but I'll hold off for awhile  Let me know hoe you like it, and convince me to change my mind.

You got it bad, Brother.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[110tHunDer]

. . . Rick reported that his Deuce ran just fine without any remapping or fiddling with the EFI system.

It's blue AND no re-mapping?!?!?! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] [smiley=drink.gif]

[SPIDERMAN]

It's blue! [smiley=nervous.gif] [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]y
What's the three sentence explanation on what that does that a regular SE air cleaner setup doesn't?

Brian,
        The Doherty unit has an internal velocity stack that channels the air and speeds it up as it enters the EFI. It also has a K&N filter element that is larger (thicker) than the SE unit which will still fit under a stock football cover (like the flamed out one on LD) . The Power Pacc kit includes one way valves for the breather holes that you can connect to the back of the unit via some fittings and hose included. Ok, that's three sentences. You want more,go to the Doherty Machine website.

B B

PS
    LD was dynoed after the 103 upgrade and dialed in with a SERT. No only does it not need remapping, but it runs like it was dynoed with the Doherty on it.

[Fired00d]

It's blue AND no re-mapping?!?!?! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] [smiley=drink.gif]

It's calling you isn't it? [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

You know if you do this you can't cover it up. To do it right you have to go for the open filter look. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Midnight Rider]

It's blue AND no re-mapping?!?!?! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] [smiley=drink.gif]

It's BLUE, buddy...from what the guy that tuned my bike said, and I don't think he was BS'ing me, as I saw what was happening with my own two eyes, the ECM is able to compensate enough on it's own for small changes like this, particularly after you've had a good tune on the bike.  I guess it's sort of like if you have nothing done to the bike and the ECM is able to compensate for changes in ambient conditions.  I'm certainly no expert in this area, so somebody feel free to jump in if I'm full of chit...well, let me rephrase that...I know I'm full of chit, but let me know if I'm wrong on this particular subject  

It does look like a quality piece, and the misting potential is enough to convice me that it is worthwhile.  Guess I'll know soon enough...

[RJ749]

It's calling you isn't it? [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

You know if you do this you can't cover it up. To do it right you have to go for the open filter look. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

That's what I was thinking, was it about the "blue" or the venturi action [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[hogasm]

Oh hell the thing is blue [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Can anyone give some numbers comparing the Doherty to the Arlen Ness

Like to know if it is worth the $250

[Fired00d]

That's what I was thinking, was it about the "blue" or the venturi action [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

It's the "BLUE" he wants to color cordinate. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[110tHunDer]

 
Yes, it is calling me, and no offense to Big B, but I'm gonna hang on until another review or two from site members here.  Besides, I need time to recover from fairing mirror and stealth chrome purchases. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

[Midnight Rider]

Yes, it is calling me, and no offense to Big B, but I'm gonna hang on until another review or two from site members here.  Besides, I need time to recover from fairing mirror and stealth chrome purchases. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

Well, I'll have mine Monday and weather permitting, I'll give a "butt dyno" report by mid week. I should have the fairing back on from another little project Jim's working on for me that will benefit all the members here.  I'm sure others will beat me to it, and BB already says it's a good thing, so that's one excellent endorsement right there.

[Midnight Rider]

WOW Terry.   I was looking hard at this thing, and it is tempting, but I'll hold off for awhile  Let me know hoe you like it, and convince me to change my mind.

You got it bad, Brother.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

I'm sick, and I have the degree to prove it    I gotta start saving at some point for the big work next year...

[110tHunDer]

Well, I'll have mine Monday and weather permitting, I'll give a "butt dyno" report by mid week. [highlight]I should have the fairing back on from another little project Jim's working on for me that will benefit all the members here.[/highlight]  I'm sure others will beat me to it, and BB already says it's a good thing, so that's one excellent endorsement right there.

You da man for being the guinea pig on that one!  I assume that means it's been done??

[Midnight Rider]

You da man for being the guinea pig on that one!  I assume that means it's been done??

He should have it in hand as of today and back to me by Friday, I hope.

[SPIDERMAN]

Yes, it is calling me, and no offense to Big B, but I'm gonna hang on until another review or two from site members here.  Besides, I need time to recover from fairing mirror and stealth chrome purchases. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

No offense taken Brian. Hell if we all went out and bought everything our site brothers "advised" us to, we'd be - - - - - hmmmmmmm - - - - - we do tend to do that don't we  

B B

[grc]

 [smiley=confused5.gif]   This is a nice looking air cleaner, but one thing about this has me slightly confused.  They claim a 15% increase in air flow, but no remapping is required (not talking about closed loop systems either).  Let me see, same amount of fuel, 15% more air, but A/F remains the same.  Maybe in some parallel universe, but not where I'm sitting. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Jerry

[Midnight Rider]

[smiley=confused5.gif]   This is a nice looking air cleaner, but one thing about this has me slightly confused.  They claim a 15% increase in air flow, but no remapping is required (not talking about closed loop systems either).  Let me see, same amount of fuel, 15% more air, but A/F remains the same.  Maybe in some parallel universe, but not where I'm sitting. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Jerry

Jerry, you are certainly light years ahead of me on this subject, so I have a question...is the ECM able (with a PCIII or SERT) to compensate at all for small changes in air flow, or other conditions.  I've got a handle on how the things work, but not all of the nuances of it's adaptability, or ability to compensate for changes in air density, etc.

[grc]

Terry,

One big difference between the H-D EFI and the one on our cars and trucks is a mass airflow sensor.  Cars and trucks have them, and H-D does not.  If our bikes did have one, then it would make the EFI capable of adjusting to actual airflow (stock filter / dirty filter / low restriction filter / etc.).  As it is, all we have is a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor and IAT (intake air temp) sensor to help approximate air density.  (And, in their infinite wisdom H-D chose to locate the IAT sensor in the throttle body, where it picks up heat from the heads and tells the ECM to lean out the mixture, which makes the engine run even hotter.)

Jerry

[Midnight Rider]

Terry,

One big difference between the H-D EFI and the one on our cars and trucks is a mass airflow sensor.  Cars and trucks have them, and H-D does not.  If our bikes did have one, then it would make the EFI capable of adjusting to actual airflow (stock filter / dirty filter / low restriction filter / etc.).  As it is, all we have is a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor and IAT (intake air temp) sensor to help approximate air density.  (And, in their infinite wisdom H-D chose to locate the IAT sensor in the throttle body, where it picks up heat from the heads and tells the ECM to lean out the mixture, which makes the engine run even hotter.)

Jerry

Jerry...thanks for that explanation, and I understand that on the pre '07 bikes (other than the 06 Dyna) there was no real feedback "loop" from any sensors so that things will adjust themselves...no closed loop whatsoever.  One thing I would like 'splained to me (I have a thought on this, but would like another opinion) is I'm looking at two Dyno pulls on a bike with a PCIII...on one pull the engine (SE A/C (K&N)) is showing 92tq/90hp and A/F at WOT of 13:1 - 13.4:1.  Next run the A/C is removed and replaced with a slightly higher flow unit, much like the Doherty...95tq/94hp (I'm rounding to the nearest whole number), but the A/F is now running at WOT 12.8:1 - 13.2:1, so it got richer.  My armchair explanation for this is that because more air is moving through the intake, the sensor might be cooler, and the MAP would change as well, so it let's more fuel in.  Am I way off base here?  And if the mix becomes richer with more air flow through the manifold because of a different A/C, but same pipes, is there a reason to be concerned as long as it all stays within reasonable parameters?  Reasonable being 12.8 to 13.6, definitely never getting over 14:1.  I know you don't want the thing going all over the place in A/F ratio, but if it's staying within .2 of a target ratio (either side), is this acceptable tuning?  Obviously, something is telling the ECM that the motor needs more fuel in this particular case.

What's going on?  What role is the PCIII playing in the above mentioned situation?

[ESJ JESTER]

I wonder on that one Terry if the tps switch could have been deciding factor. i dont  believe the air temps sensivity is as factorable as that of a air density/mass air flow sensor. The platinum wire heated to 1400 deg in a mass air flow indeed can "sense" the air flow as it's "temperature" directly changes with volume flow and thus adjusts the pulse width(open time) of the injector.  I wonder actually  what the refresh rate of the ecm is?  I would think map/tps might be the primary factors involved??     Just wondering along with ya [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Gene

[grc]

Terry,

The MAP and IAT sensors are used to approximate air flow, so the result you saw on the dyno with the two different flow rate air cleaners is understandable.  My point was that this is a rather imprecise method versus direct measurement of flow with a mass airflow sensor, especially with the location H-D uses for the IAT sensor.  After paying a bunch of bucks for a precise dyno tune, do you really want a +/- 0.3 or 0.5 on your A/F?

The following is the formula used to approximate flow with a MAP/IAT system:
Mass Airflow Rate [ch8776] RPM × (MAP / TEMP)

As for the PCIII, it only adds or subtracts a percentage of fuel (based on the map, throttle position versus rpm) to the amount previously calculated by the ECM.  It would not have caused the affect you noticed.

Jerry

[Midnight Rider]

dyno run...

[Midnight Rider]

Terry,

The MAP and IAT sensors are used to approximate air flow, so the result you saw on the dyno with the two different flow rate air cleaners is understandable.  My point was that this is a rather imprecise method versus direct measurement of flow with a mass airflow sensor, especially with the location H-D uses for the IAT sensor.  After paying a bunch of bucks for a precise dyno tune, do you really want a +/- 0.3 or 0.5 on your A/F?

The following is the formula used to approximate flow with a MAP/IAT system:
Mass Airflow Rate [ch8776] RPM × (MAP / TEMP)

As for the PCIII, it only adds or subtracts a percentage of fuel (based on the map, throttle position versus rpm) to the amount previously calculated by the ECM.  It would not have caused the affect you noticed.

Jerry

Thanks again, Jerry...the experience I have with air flow/temp measuring all comes from the HVAC industry, and particularly measuring lab hood/stack velocity to ensure a negative pressure differencial regardless of hood opening position, and differences in pressure for "clean" rooms in bone marrow transplant units, so I understand the principles, but not the specifics of adding fuel to that whole scenario.  Appreciate the explanation!

[Midnight Rider]

Received my Doherty Powerpacc yesterday...it was delayed (ordered last Tuesday, the 9th) as they were waiting on a couple of parts to come in.  Overall impressions just pulling it out of the box and checking all the parts...VERY well made, good clean machine work, quality pieces.  All the aluminum is polished to a high sheen, so it looks chrome.  The backplate is a machined piece, not stamped, and the venturi is a highly polished, close tolerance (the way it fits into the backplate) fit, with an O ring to seal the venturi against the backplate.

103...the filter oil is BLUE!!

The filter itself is a bit wider than the 800 K&N (will stick out slightly further)  I'll take some pics tomorrow when I install everything, and you can judge for yourself.  The way the backplate and filter mount is different, and looks to be a better design than the stock, or the SE piece.  

[Chief]

Received my Doherty Powerpacc yesterday...it was delayed (ordered last Tuesday, the 9th) as they were waiting on a couple of parts to come in.  Overall impressions just pulling it out of the box and checking all the parts...VERY well made, good clean machine work, quality pieces.  All the aluminum is polished to a high sheen, so it looks chrome.  The backplate is a machined piece, not stamped, and the venturi is a highly polished, close tolerance (the way it fits into the backplate) fit, with an O ring to seal the venturi against the backplate.

103...the filter oil is BLUE!!

The filter itself is a bit wider than the 800 K&N (will stick out slightly further)  I'll take some pics tomorrow when I install everything, and you can judge for yourself.  [highlight]The way the backplate and filter mount is different, and looks to be a better design than the stock, or the SE piece.[/highlight]  

How can that be?

Very interested in hearing your impressions. Would have been more interested if I hadn't just received and mounted my own Roll your own, but still interested.

Chief

[Midnight Rider]

How can that be?

Very interested in hearing your impressions. Would have been more interested if I hadn't just received and mounted my own Roll your own, but still interested.

Chief

Chief...I'll be putting in on tomorrow, but looking at the directions, they don't use the same kind of bolt configuration for holding the filter on...I can't remember what the bolts are called, but on the SE unit there are three bolts that go through the backplate and screw into the TB...those bolts have threads in the end to hold on the filter, so you've basically got a pretty good bit of stress on those three bolts going into the TB with the weight of the filter and cover basically "hanging" off something threaded into the TB...I've had two of them break off in the TB on me (probably overtightened by tech at dealer), and almost lost my entire filter and cover...it was hanging by one bolt, and it happened all of a sudden too.  I know there is a better bolt out there from Zippers (and probably elsewhere).  Fortunately, that happened to me on the way to the tuner for my PCIII, so we were able to fix it in his shop, but one of the bolts had broken off in the TB with no "tit" to get a pair of vice grips on to get it out, so had to drill out (very carefully, I might add... [smiley=nervous.gif])...no harm was done, but it took a few minutes.  Must be very careful not to overtighten those three bolts!!!!

The machined backplate on the Doherty appears to be held on in two places...the "banjo" type bolts that go into the heads which provide the breathing (which hold on the PowerVents), and then three short bolts which bolt the plate directly onto the TB, then the Venturi gets stuck in the mouth of the backplate/TB...the filter gets held on my three seperate bolts that screw into the machined backplate, through a top plate for the filter, then the center hole for the cover, per normal.

Really appears to be a "better mousetrap"...I'll take some pics when I install tomorrow and post them so you'll see what I'm talking about and pass your own judgement.  What I"m impressed by most though is the machine work on the backplate and Venturi...really well made stuff.  The way it's going to make the air flow into the mouth of the TB has got to be better to some extent...not making any claims as to how much power difference that will make, but it is definitely a nice transition for the air to move through the filter and into the mouth...

[Chief]

Chief...I'll be putting in on tomorrow, but looking at the directions, they don't use the same kind of bolt configuration for holding the filter on...I can't remember what the bolts are called, but on the SE unit there are three bolts that go through the backplate and screw into the TB...those bolts have threads in the end to hold on the filter, so you've basically got a pretty good bit of stress on those three bolts going into the TB with the weight of the filter and cover basically "hanging" off something threaded into the TB...I've had two of them break off in the TB on me (probably overtightened by tech at dealer), and almost lost my entire filter and cover...it was hanging by one bolt, and it happened all of a sudden too.  I know there is a better bolt out there from Zippers (and probably elsewhere).  Fortunately, that happened to me on the way to the tuner for my PCIII, so we were able to fix it in his shop, but one of the bolts had broken off in the TB with no "tit" to get a pair of vice grips on to get it out, so had to drill out (very carefully, I might add... [smiley=nervous.gif])...no harm was done, but it took a few minutes.  Must be very careful not to overtighten those three bolts!!!!

The machined backplate on the Doherty appears to be held on in two places...the "banjo" type bolts that go into the heads which provide the breathing (which hold on the PowerVents), and then three short bolts which bolt the plate directly onto the TB, then the Venturi gets stuck in the mouth of the backplate/TB...the filter gets held on my three seperate bolts that screw into the machined backplate, through a top plate for the filter, then the center hole for the cover, per normal.

Really appears to be a "better mousetrap"...I'll take some pics when I install tomorrow and post them so you'll see what I'm talking about and pass your own judgement.  What I"m impressed by most though is the machine work on the backplate and Venturi...really well made stuff.  The way it's going to make the air flow into the mouth of the TB has got to be better to some extent...not making any claims as to how much power difference that will make, but it is definitely a nice transition for the air to move through the filter and into the mouth...

I need to work on my sarcasm. Evidently it wasn't apparent enough. I should have said... What? Someone manufactured something better than the piece of finely engineered and manufactured piece of craftmanship that Harley sells? I find that hard to believe.

That would have worked better.

Chief

[Midnight Rider]

Installed the Doherty PowerPacc today...fairly straightforward, and easy to do.  Here's some pics of the process...did not get a chance to ride today as I have the fairing off for some other work, and it won't go back on until sometime next week, so I'll have to give the seat of the pants report later.  Over all impressions: the machine work on the parts is very nice...all parts and pieces are quality made...instructions are easy to follow.  The PowerPacc vents are one way "valves" which allow pressure in the crankcase to vent either to the atmosphere, or into the inside of the filter mount, but do not allow air to be sucked back in on the downstroke of the piston.

The pics will show how it works..

First pic is of all the parts and pieces that come with the kit...

[Midnight Rider]

This is a pic of the filter backplate, which is machined out of a solid piece of aluminum, then polished.  You can see how it mounts differently to the TB...the studs for the filter mount came already in place..again, machined pieces which do not screw into the TB, but into the backplate as shown...

[Midnight Rider]

This is a pic of the PowerPacc vents, or one way "valves", O ring for sealing the venturi to the backplate...

[Midnight Rider]

Off with the old backplate....you can see the bolts which hold the filter on also thread into the TB, and the old vents bolted into the heads, which also hold the backplate on...

[Midnight Rider]

All the old parts off the TB and heads...this is a good time to check the operation of all the parts that move and lubricate the cables...

[Midnight Rider]

This one shows the powerpacc vents and banjo type bolts, with washers, ready to install.  The 06 model requires two of the nylon washers on each side of the vent...

[Midnight Rider]

PowerPacc vents bolted up to the heads, and torqued to 12fp..

[Midnight Rider]

This shows how the "plumbing" works for the vents to get the mist (if any) back into the intake.  This is not absolutely necessary, but I was afraid at high speeds/RPM there might be some mist which would be vented where I didn't want it to be.  The Nylon 90 degree nipples must be positioned correctly to get everything out of the way for the next step...

[Midnight Rider]

The above photo also shows the back of the plate well..

Backplate is then bolted to the TB with three socket head allens, after the gasket is put between the backplate and TB, of course.  New gasket is in the kit...also shows the button head bolts that go into the slotted holes in the backplate and into the powerpacc vent banjo bolts....

[Midnight Rider]

This is a shot of the venturi installed into the backplate/TB...there is an O ring which is shown better in the next photo...oil the O ring up, and the venturi is a machined fit which requires pressing in with the heel of your hand, or a rubber mallet, if necessary.  There are slots milled into the backplate for removal, if ever necessary...just pry it back out of the backplate.  It is a very good fit...

[Midnight Rider]

Closer shot of the O ring seal and how smooth and well machined the venturi is...

[Midnight Rider]

Filter in place, ready for the top plate to be bolted on with button heads...a drop of Blue loctite is recommended on the buttonheads.  The filter is shaped slightly different, and is wider by about 1/2 an inch...

[Midnight Rider]

Top plate bolted on...

[Midnight Rider]

Another shot of the filter to show the additional width....

[Midnight Rider]

Cover gets bolted back on with the center bolt, per normal...a spacer is provided for the backside to hold the cover off the backplate...I also reused the thick gasket I had on the old system for some additional support, but it really is not necessary...but, I had it, and it "seals" the cover, but mostly is useful to keep the cover from rotating.

[Midnight Rider]

Shot from the side....

[Midnight Rider]

Screamin' Eagle plate screwed back on...done!!!

The principle behind the powervents is to allow pressure to escape the crankcase while not allowing new air to enter on the downstroke, as the vents are one way valves...seems to work.  Will have to see if there are any gains in power...I do know that my motor needed more air, as it was proven to me by the tuner/mechanic at the small shop I had the tune done...he claims that the normal size filter is marginal in allowing enough air for our 103's to fully breathe, particularly when installing the TD RH's...

I'll let you know next week about how it feels, and whether I can tell any difference in HP/TQ...they claim 2 or 3 on each side with this system because of the venturi design and powervents, plus the filter being larger in surface area.

[Midnight Rider]

One more...shot of the old backplate for comparison...

[110tHunDer]

...did not get a chance to ride today as I have the fairing off for some other work...

Still trying to get them d@mn radio bolts on, huh Terry?!?   [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

PowerPacc looks GREAT!  Awesome photos!  Can't wait to read what your impressions are once you get a chance to take a scoot!

[Midnight Rider]

[highlight]Still trying to get them d@mn radio bolts on[/highlight], huh Terry?!?   [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

PowerPacc looks GREAT!  Awesome photos!  Can't wait to read what your impressions are once you get a chance to take a scoot!

I did try that again today......for about 30 damn minutes...cannot get them started without cross threading...  It would take a stick of dynomite to get the radio to move...I gave up...for good.

[Bagger]

Screamin' Eagle plate screwed back on...done!!!

The principle behind the powervents is to allow pressure to escape the crankcase while not allowing new air to enter on the downstroke, as the vents are one way valves...seems to work.  Will have to see if there are any gains in power...I do know that my motor needed more air, as it was proven to me by the tuner/mechanic at the small shop I had the tune done...he claims that the normal size filter is marginal in allowing enough air for our 103's to fully breathe, particularly when installing the TD RH's...

I'll let you know next week about how it feels, and whether I can tell any difference in HP/TQ...they claim 2 or 3 on each side with this system because of the venturi design and powervents, plus the filter being larger in surface area.

Great job, Terry.  Very detailed tutorial, and it answered alot of questions I had about this system.  Once you get a chance to ride and report, I'll make a decision.  Are you going back to Hanceville to get back on the dynomometer?

[Midnight Rider]

Great job, Terry.  Very detailed tutorial, and it answered alot of questions I had about this system.  Once you get a chance to ride and report, I'll make a decision.  Are you going back to Hanceville to get back on the dynomometer?

Henry, I'm going to see how it does...it's tuned to a setpoint of about 13/1 so it has a little room to be leaner.  I'll be able to tell pretty quickly by mpg and response on decel and steady throttle.

[FLHRSE3]

Great job Terry, I shouldn’t have any difficultly installing mine with that great job you did of explaining how.  Mine arrived with some damage to the Velocity Stack, a bolt left a couple of indentations right at the crown of it.  The folks at Doherty were very apologetic and said they would have a new one shipped right out.  No big deal as everything is covered in a layer of ice right now anyway.

Gregg

[SPIDERMAN]

I've been a huge fan of Doherty for years. Talked Beagle into his. BUT, I gotta bitch. I sent em an e-mail and followed it up with a phone call for some misc spare parts I needed and they couldn't have effed the order up more if they had done it intentionally. Kinda pisses me off when I think of all the free publicity Beags and I have given em. Still it's a great product, but I hope this is not a harbinger of things to come. Some great businesses fall apart when they grow too large too quick.

Just my $0.02

Big B

[SPIDERMAN]

Henry, I'm going to see how it does...it's tuned to a setpoint of about 13/1 so it has a little room to be leaner.  I'll be able to tell pretty quickly by mpg and response on decel and steady throttle.

TC,
        You're kidding ?  LD is set to 12/1 at full throttle and no leaner than 12.5/1 anywhere in the spectrum.  I gotta tell you LD runs extremely strong at any RPM and under any load or throttle condition. Did the tuner tell you why yours is set so lean ?

B B

[Midnight Rider]

TC,
        You're kidding ?  LD is set to 12/1 at full throttle and no leaner than 12.5/1 anywhere in the spectrum.  I gotta tell you LD runs extremely strong at any RPM and under any load or throttle condition. Did the tuner tell you why yours is set so lean ?

B B

B B...most of the tuners I've talked to, and the research I've done, shoot for a cruise A/F of 13.4/1 and WOT of 12.8 to 13...that was also Jim's recomendation for the PCIII tune  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Considering they run 14.5 + from the factory, didn't think 13/1 was bad...I'm certainly no expert on this subject though.  Just go by what I read...

[Twolanerider]

B B...most of the tuners I've talked to, and the research I've done, shoot for a cruise A/F of 13.4/1 and WOT of 12.8 to 13...that was also Jim's recomendation for the PCIII tune  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Considering they run 14.5 + from the factory, didn't think 13/1 was bad...I'm certainly no expert on this subject though.  Just go by what I read...

Mine is at 13:1 across the board right now.  That's plenty rich.  In fact when I tinker with it a bit more before spring I'm going to take it to 13.5:1 (or thereabouts) in the 2700-3200 RPM range for highway cruising on the long days.  Leave it richer/cooler for twisting the throttle to pass/play and for idling on hot days.

[SPIDERMAN]

Mine is at 13:1 across the board right now.  That's plenty rich.  In fact when I tinker with it a bit more before spring I'm going to take it to 13.5:1 (or thereabouts) in the 2700-3200 RPM range for highway cruising on the long days.  Leave it richer/cooler for twisting the throttle to pass/play and for idling on hot days.

Well that may have been a break-in tune. LD's going back on the dyno when I get 2,500 miles on the mods. Talked to the tech that did the work yesterday, he's saying with a good break-in and the Doherty, he should be puttin up some good numbers. I'm happy now, so I guess at that point I'll be freakin ecstatic  

[ggraves427]

Before you make up your mind on which air cleaner you want, checK the March 2007 issue of Hotrod's Bike Works www.hotrodsbikeworks.com page 14. S&S has a new air cleaner. It has two red or blue air filters on two tubes going into one tube at the intake. Comes in black or (OCD) chrome www.sscycle.com click on products then click on the 2007 book. Looks nice, but just like everyting else it comes with a price.  $365 for the filters and tubes+$375 for the adapter bracket, screws, bolts, gaskets etc per local HD stealer. Check it out and let me know what you think.  

[Rhino]

Henry, I'm going to see how it does...it's tuned to a setpoint of about 13/1 so it has a little room to be leaner.  I'll be able to tell pretty quickly by mpg and response on decel and steady throttle.

So did I miss a post?  TC, how does it do?   I have the HiFlo, since the change to the RaceT, but this DM machining is nice. But I would wanna know if this will work on my 07SEUC, and IF you have seen any air velocity measured increases too.  I am running at 14.1 across the board, and doin ok, not to lean at all in my case.  But my mileage is not so wonderful if I get on it, whcih is all the time except once. I got 39mpg on my 110. No problem to re tune if required, but did you find any seat diff?  Now, be unbiased, even though you spent a good chunk o change for this item...be khonest.

Anyway, back to the issue. OCD....I like shiny things that do somethin!  Soooo? BTW nice report.

Rhino

[Midnight Rider]

So did I miss a post?  TC, how does it do?   I have the HiFlo, since the change to the RaceT, but this DM machining is nice. But I would wanna know if this will work on my 07SEUC, and IF you have seen any air velocity measured increases too.  I am running at 14.1 across the board, and doin ok, not to lean at all in my case.  But my mileage is not so wonderful if I get on it, whcih is all the time except once. I got 39mpg on my 110. No problem to re tune if required, but did you find any seat diff?  Now, be unbiased, even though you spent a good chunk o change for this item...be khonest.

Anyway, back to the issue. OCD....I like shiny things that do somethin!  Soooo? BTW nice report.

Rhino

Finally got to take a ride Saturday with the new A/C, and will have to say that I can feel a difference in power...not a huge difference, but a difference.  After several conversations with Tim at Doherty, and looking at several dyno charts, plus my butt dyno, I'd say it's a couple of more HP/TQ than it was with the SE.  No popping on decel or running problems either, so I'm going to leave the tune alone.  It was running in the 12.8 to 13.2 range at WOT anyway, so it's got some room for more air.  The motor is breathing better, you can "feel" it.  The filter does stick out a bit further, but I've got the spacers on the floorboards, so that did not make a problem for me.  It really is a well made part, and Doherty's customer service is excellent...not every day that you can talk to the guy who owns the company get him to explain some things to you.

There is an excellent article in American Iron on the Doherty systems (mist free and PowerPace) that really explains how the systems work.  I'm not sure which issue it is, but it's the one about exhaust systems (yellow cover)..recent edition.

[Screamin_Beagle]

I've spoken to Tim many times and can tell you that he really does care about what people are saying about him and his products.  He spent big money to develope the PP and even more on the MistFree.  From what I'm told,  the MoCo is looking to buy the patent from him (MistFree) to put on all bikes in the future (will be made of pressed tin though),  but if it works the same.......what the hell.



_Beags

[Midnight Rider]

I've spoken to Tim many times and can tell you that he really does care about what people are saying about him and his products.  He spent big money to develope the PP and even more on the MistFree.  From what I'm told,  the MoCo is looking to buy the patent from him (MistFree) to put on all bikes in the future (will be made of pressed tin though),  but if it works the same.......what the hell.



_Beags

Yeah, Beags...you can tell when talking with him he is passionate about his products.  He told me that they are even doing some work for Rinehart, and had nothing but good things to say about them as well.  He's a straight up guy!!

The article in American Ironhorse is excellent...thorough explanation of all the products, from a third party, and some quotes from Tim as well. His Myst Free system is superior to stock in every way, and the PP does it's job too...I'm very impressed both with the company and the product.  The article also gives a very good overview of what causes some bikes to have problems and some not (with too much "mist").

[Hoist!]

I copied this from the A/C cover thread in the SEEG section so it can be shared easier with the group. Good News from Doherty!

Great news for all of you S&S Air Cleaner cover lover guys, like me!!! I just got off the phone with Doherty Machine. They will make a Delphi EFI Power Pacc with Power Vents for the '07 SE's. The kit is set up so the backplate accommodates an S&S Teardrop A/C Cover with no modifications!!! It uses the 3 screws that align with the standard S&S teardrop A/C cover from an S&S Super Carb! With a 10% discount and frt. to NYC, the total was $279.76. You need to supply your own S&S Teardrop Cover. I've been looking for a good way to do this. Doherty has the solution! Hoist! 8-)

[johnnymap]

Hoist, did he say when he might have the PP ready for the 07 SE's?

Thanks,

john

[kojak]

Rhino,
ref ideal afr:13.5 to 14.2 is good for running cool on a air cooled big twin, decent gas mileage etc. Fouling plugs at 12.

12.0 Rich
13.2 Slightly rich but comfortable for an air cooled engine
14.7 Stoichiometric or Theoretical ideal combustion
15.0 Lean
16.0 Pushing it here

Above is for reference
Below is copied from Daytona Sensor

Operating Mode Recommended AFR
Cold Start (first 30 sec) 11.5-12.5
Idle 12.8-13.5
Part Throttle Cruise 13.0-14.0
Wide Open Throttle 12.5-12.8 (values down to 11.5 may be used to reduce detonation)

[SPIDERMAN]

Hoist, did he say when he might have the PP ready for the 07 SE's?

Thanks,

john

?
            I've got one on my 07. Read earlier posts

B B

[Midnight Rider]

I'm just bumping this back to the top for those who might be interested, or missed it the first time.

With an update...I know the system is allowing more air because my MPG increased by a couple...still not lean, but definitely increased the air flow to the intake side of things.

[mdduce]

I put the Doherty on my 04 duce and was a bad mistake,I had the 113" SCREAMING BUILD  done by the harley shop,they said have a powercomander installed,the tuner thought the doherty might be a good thing since the build to get more air flow.well I got oil down the side of bike every time you nail it,also had no hp gain at all,called tuner up and told him about it he says,I know all about it already had other complaints,same concerns,took it back took it off no charge for labor so if anybody wants this thing with in line filter&cans 200.00 it's your's it may work for some on somthing just blown money here!!!

[Talon]

Mine came two days ago!!!

[SPIDERMAN]

I put the Doherty on my 04 duce and was a bad mistake,I had the 113" SCREAMING BUILD  done by the harley shop,they said have a powercomander installed,the tuner thought the doherty might be a good thing since the build to get more air flow.well I got oil down the side of bike every time you nail it,also had no hp gain at all,called tuner up and told him about it he says,I know all about it already had other complaints,same concerns,took it back took it off no charge for labor so if anybody wants this thing with in line filter&cans 200.00 it's your's it may work for some on somthing just blown money here!!!

There's got to be some reason for what you're saying here.  I'm not easily swayed by products promising this or that and 99% of the time, the last one to go for a really good product, so for me to say that the Doherty Power Pacc is worth every penny of what it cost is something. BUT, by the same token I have not installed a Doherty on anything other than a CVO 103 and a built up 96" to 103. Neither of which had real high lift long duration cams or other real Max Effort stuff. So there's got to be something in your motor equation that doesn't work with the Doherty. Who knows, maybe the Doherty gives the most bang for the buck with mild motor mods. It wouldn't be the first product. Talk to somone with a Magnacharger. They actually work best on stock motors. Thanks for the post. This could save someone with a big motor build from buying the wrong breather. As I've said before however they have performed incredibly well on the bikes I've had them on.

Just my $0.02

B B

[mdduce]

I didn't think about it but you may have a point,I just never looked for a better air flow until after the build,again because the tuner thought it might help squeeze a tad more hp out of it.Really,the best piece of work I've seen, the breather!It simply wouldn't let the motor breathe,it killed it from 4500 to 6000 rpm,didn't even realize it till the dealer told to me to try the old one back on just to see,I was amazed the difference.To be honest every one he had trouble with and only were the big stroke Harley motors?Dealer said he thought these motor's just built up to much pressure.Still got to thank the guy from TNT for being so kind and honest to reverse this thing NO CHARGE!!

[SPIDERMAN]

I didn't think about it but you may have a point,I just never looked for a better air flow until after the build,again because the tuner thought it might help squeeze a tad more hp out of it.Really,the best piece of work I've seen, the breather!It simply wouldn't let the motor breathe,it killed it from 4500 to 6000 rpm,didn't even realize it till the dealer told to me to try the old one back on just to see,I was amazed the difference.To be honest every one he had trouble with and only were the big stroke Harley motors?Dealer said he thought these motor's just built up to much pressure.Still got to thank the guy from TNT for being so kind and honest to reverse this thing NO CHARGE!!

I believe Chip, Hubbard, DCFIREMAN and others running maximum effort motors all use the Ness Big Sucker. If I've said it once, I've said it 1,000 times, the key to a good running motor is not necessarily using the best of everything so much as making sure everything matches up well.

B B

[mdduce]

            I couldn't agree more,just a learning curve,never did learn much without paying a little tuition.