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[hd-dude]

I agree with you Dude.And beleive it or not most european countries teach english mandatory in their curriculum.I think immigrants should try to learn the language and we shouldn't baby them by making everything"multi-lingual"Learn it or don't function in every day society.

I do not know how it is in other states but here in CA you can take your driving test in just about every language out there. Are the road signs printed in all these languages? I think not. I also am getting more and more advertisements in Spanish for the major chain stores, billboards are also popping up in Spanish. THIS IS AMERICA!!!!! English is the language. Why do we keep catering to this kind of BS? I know the answer, MONEY. Its a shame

[Twolanerider]

Its a shame

Oh bullchit; we're just lazy.  For decades for the rest of the world to function it had to be multilingual.  English and whatever for business and French and whatever for diplomacy and politics.  English has supplanted French for diplomacy and politics now too.  English is the predominant international language.  But everyone who wants to be functional (in a business sense) needs it and whatever else they need to work locally.  

We've been spoiled.  Since we already had English in our pockets everyone had to come to us (linguistically speaking).  Now it's not that easy anymore.  But rather than being the Americans of generations before that adapted to the challenges of the day and ran over them we whine because those who slog through their own language and at least some English make it harder on the rest of us who only have shown the initiative or exercised the intelligence to slog through our own single language.

It's not about immigrants (illegal or otherwise) having no English skills.  Immigrants today have a significantly higher statitical probability of having some basic English skills than did immigrants before.  That's obvious as the language is now broadcast all over the world in various media so everyone but the most remote at least hear it in the background all the time.  It's about us complaining because there's now a competetive sector of the society and economy we're too lazy to compete with.  So we complain that they won't come to us (again, linguistically speaking) because it's just oh so difficult to make the effort to compete with them on their own terms.

[byronrb]

All this "class envy" bullchit I'm reading is really disheartening. I'm a farmer with probably quite a few wetbacks. I say probably, because they have forged docs. Am i supposed to investigate each worker. Also, almost everybody is well over minimum wage and NOBODY under it. I think a guestworker program is the way to go. Americans may be willing to do a lot of jobs but farmwork isn't one of them.

[BK]

You can blame it on the political system. The rich business owners are padding the pockets of this countrys politicians. I don't trust any of them period!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

I got to agree with you DAWG [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[Twolanerider]

All this "class envy" bullchit I'm reading is really disheartening.

Amen Byron.  We're starting to sound like the French whining because people won't speak our language and whining because people won't do what we want them to just because we think they should.  And we know how long it's been since France has been a true great power.  Hell, they can't even do what's in their own best interest right now when they know it's in their own best interest.

When Sputnik went up our students learned math and the sciences.  In WWII we learned types of warfare on a global scale barely imagined in the war colleges before that time.  Between the two we mastered modern capitalism and brought the world to its table.  We took the industrial revolution away from Europe, made it our own, and our still exporting the benefit of it.  We did what the British had done to adversaries for centuries, when faced with challenges or challengers we rolled over them or dodged and dived and eventually assimilated them.  We're America; resistance should in the end game still be futile.  It used to be easier than it is now; that's the only difference.  

That that prior ease lasted so long changed us a bit along the way.  It wasn't easy to be the nation that elevated itself in the space of less than one century from a debtor nation to the world with no real influence to speak of to having been the broker of one world war, the winner of two others and the victor or better survivor of any number and type of skirmishes in between.

That it got easier is something we're suffering the fate of now.  We've gotten lazy.  So rather than boning up, competing and rolling on to yet another successful assimilation of peoples and strengths in to American culture we whine.

New Hampshire's license plate doesn't say "Live Free or Whine."  So how about we just quit our bitching and get on with it?  If we don't start doing that relatively soon the 21st century will most assuredly not be another American Century.  

We start with tremendous advantages simply being Americans at this place in history.  If another group of people can inculcate this culture and through something as simple as annoying us by speaking Spanish really in some way diminish the American culture than, quite frankly, we deserve it.  You don't blame the victors for winning.  You blame the losers for letting them do it.  Actually, that's not true.  There is always one group that blames the winners.  It's the losers when they whine about what was done to them.

[SPIDERMAN]

To me, there is no class envy or predjudice toward anyone's ethnicity. It is the difference between Legal and Illegal. In my view of America anyone of any national origin is welcome to come to America and become a citizen of our country. Once he has done that I do not begrudge him the language he speaks, the traditions of his native country he seeks to preserve nor any job he is willing to work to be qualified for, apply and be chosen. I do begrudge anyone who operates outside of this. I begrudge the guest workers, I begrudge the resident aliens, I begrudge the illegals. One of the reasons I begrudge the illegals so much is because I come from a generation exposed to a military draft. Were such a draft reinstated, these people would not be exposed to it. Also, I believe that aprx 1% of our legal population volunteers for military service. The media says there are 12 million illegals in the country. If 1% of them were in our military that would be 120,000. Maybe some of our guys doing two and three tours of Iraq could come home and we could still try to end that mess over there without bailing out completely. Lastly and this is really galling is taxes. Illegals do not pay taxes yet they are a drain on our social service, our hospitals, our schools. everything you and I pay for. This is why I am so anti Illegal. Not because I hate Mexicans, or Asians, or any other ethnic group, but because I believe we are a nation of laws. There have been times in my life where I disregarded or blatantly broke some of those laws. I might have even done so with my middle finger pointed at those who make and enforce the law. BUT and this is the big thing. There was never a time when I felt that I should not be held accountable for my actions. At the end of the day, the illegals do not want to be held accountable for their actions. In my view of life that is dispicable.

[grc]

FYI

excerpt from:  http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/index.htm

Welcome to the naturalization home page. Naturalization is the process by which [highlight]U.S. citizenship is conferred upon a foreign citizen or national after he or she fulfills the requirements established by Congress in the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). The general requirements for administrative naturalization include[/highlight]:

-a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States;
-residence in a particular USCIS District prior to filing;
-an ability to read, write, and speak English;
-a knowledge and understanding of U.S. history and government;
-good moral character;
-attachment to the principles of the U.S. Constitution; and,
-favorable disposition toward the United States.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pretty straightforward, as best I can see.  Of course, breaking Federal law probably blows you out on the "good moral character" part.  

Jerry
[highlight][/highlight]

[WaSEEG]

The problem is twofold: 1) the 12 million (estimated) illegals currently in the country and 2) our relatively porous  borders.  With regard to the 12 million here does any one realistically think we have either the national will or the resources to round these folks up and send them off to wherever they came from.  I seriously doubt it.  We had an amnesty program a few years back.  Toward what end?  We didn't seal the borders and the problem continued to escalate.  If we don't do something about making it more difficult to get into this country the numbers will continue to rise.  Of course that gets expensive and where will the money come from.  I don't believe merely making it illegal to enter this country w/o a visa or papers is sufficient.  You have to stop the influx at the border.  I can't think of any reason why the most powerful nation on earth can't do this except that it's not a priority.  The 12 million currently here are likely to stay.  However, we don't have to keep repeating the cycle.

Dan

[grc]

FYI

According to one of the national news reports, illegals now comprise 5% of the labor force in this country.

Jerry

[SPIDERMAN]

FYI

According to one of the national news reports, illegals now comprise 5% of the labor force in this country.

Jerry

And they pay NO taxes and serve NO military service To any of you for whom these people are working, it is a tough world and I understand the pressure to compete. All I would ask is that you insist on a SS card and that you deduct income taxes and SS taxes from their checks. At least that way, they are paying their own freight and the people in your area who do pay taxes are not subsidising your business by paying for social services for your illegal workers.

[byronrb]

And they pay NO taxes and serve NO military service To any of you for whom these people are working, it is a tough world and I understand the pressure to compete. All I would ask is that you insist on a SS card and that you deduct income taxes and SS taxes from their checks. At least that way, they are paying their own freight and the people in your area who do pay taxes are not subsidising your business by paying for social services for your illegal workers.

We, and every other employer that I know, do get a copy of their SS card, and a copy of their ID card, and DO deduct income taxes from their checks ..... We are REQUIRED to do these by law.

[grc]

I wasn't aware that an illegal immigrant could get a Social Security card.  Don't tell me my knee-jerk government is doing that now.  Damn, does that mean I get to pay for their retirement too???

Jerry

[Twolanerider]

I wasn't aware that an illegal immigrant could get a Social Security card.  Don't tell me my knee-jerk government is doing that now.  Damn, does that mean I get to pay for their retirement too???

Jerry

You ask for one anyway Jerry.  A prospective employee who is illegal will either offer nothing (in which case he's not supposed to be hired) or he'll offer phony papers.  If he offers phonies than you make all the standard deductions, the illegal employee never makes a tax claim, and "his" tax payments stay in the US Treasury or SS trust fund.

[SPIDERMAN]

Don,
       So what your saying sounds like that our own government perpetuates this fraud because it nets them money ? Meanwhile these illegals that from what I hear work for far less than the prevailing wage drive down wages for legal citizens. Recent government reports indicate that actual wages have fallen by 2 -5% in the food service, construction and food processing industries. Yet real estate is one of the best hedges against inflation in our current economy and food and restraunt prices are certainly not going down. Costs are down, prices are up. Who's gettin fat ?

[arcticdude]

To some degree that's a correct observation, Spiderman.  TWO (2) years ago, I filed a W2 for an employee with an incorrect #.  I'm just now getting a letter about it.  Turns out it was nothing more than a simple transcription error on my part.  But if you're dealing with migrants and it takes 2 years to get a response, how are you going to track them down??  Many employers may not realize the SSA has a website that does allow for fairly quick # verification.  But how many have the time/energy to check it??  Right or wrong on their part.  I whole heartedly agree with your prior statements.  If you're in this country, you need to pay the taxes, be eligible to do the time and be able to speak the language; otherwise you don't get ANY services! There needs to be some accountability for the employer to verify a SS#.  I'm not sure the aforementioned website is fast enough to make it a viable option.